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WDW
04-30-2013, 05:12 PM
Here's the deal, I want an SBR AR. Ideally I would want a Colt 6933, but I don't anticipate finding one of those at a normal price for a good while. I'm still pissed I didn't buy the one I saw on Bud's for $1,100 6 months ago. Does anyone have any recommendations. Should I just SBR a lower and slap on an upper or is there a factory SBR with a good rep thats worth looking at. Ideally if I'm going to spend $200 extra and wait 6+ months I want a kick ass rifle and not some frankenwhatever I assembled myself.

orionz06
04-30-2013, 05:18 PM
I would have no worries stamping a good lower now and then snagging a BCM, DD, or Noveske upper as they become available.

Zhurdan
04-30-2013, 05:32 PM
I would have no worries stamping a good lower now and then snagging a BCM, DD, or Noveske upper as they become available.

Probably the best route right now, but if things lighten up a bit, I'd recommend a Noveske. I've got two and they both run very well.

Chuck Whitlock
04-30-2013, 05:45 PM
Personally, If I ever go SBR, I'm going full retard with an 8" Barrett Rec7 in 6.8.
YMMV.

Sparks2112
05-01-2013, 03:10 AM
Are you wanting 5.56 or another caliber? Also, budget?

WDW
05-01-2013, 06:18 AM
Are you wanting 5.56 or another caliber? Also, budget?

Yes, 5.56. Budget is under $2k.

Kyle Reese
05-01-2013, 06:26 AM
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-mk18-factory-sbr-black.html

Sparks2112
05-01-2013, 06:26 AM
Yes, 5.56. Budget is under $2k.

2k before or after the government steals your $200? :)

Kyle Reese
05-01-2013, 08:06 AM
WDW,
You'll probably want a suppressor with your SBR, no?

WDW
05-01-2013, 08:42 AM
WDW,
You'll probably want a suppressor with your SBR, no?

Well naturally!!! That'll prob come later though.

WDW
05-01-2013, 08:44 AM
2k before or after the government steals your $200? :)

Either or. $200 ain't no big thing.

Rick Finsta
05-01-2013, 09:45 AM
Buy a BCM lower (Midwest Industries has them from time to time)

Send it for engraving

Once back, fill out your Form 1 and send it off

Shoot the ever living shit out of your BCM lower with a >16" upper, and earn cool-guy points the entire time while waiting until your stamp comes back. Also, buy the short barreled upper you wish to use at this time, but don't even think about setting on that lower and pushing those two pins. Inspect it upon arrival and then put it back in the box, in the back of your safe.

When your stamp comes back, you are obligated to "sqeeeee" like a little girl before assembling your SBR upper on your lower, and posting pr0n on the internet before heading to the range to try it out.

This way you actually get to shoot a new gun while you wait (8+ months right now) to get your stamp back, and then by putting a factory upper on your factory lower, you lose nothing with respect to factory reliability. Otherwise, buying any high quality factory SBR (BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, etc.) will be fine, but you will have a looooong wait to take your new toy home.

Also, I will warn you that if you do get a silencer, you will never want to shoot unsuppressed again, and it can get expensive (both in cash and in marriage capital - ask me why I'm residing the house and building a new deck this summer...).

Jay
05-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I would highly recommend purchasing the suppressor and stamping out an existing or new lower now, wait times are currently sitting right at 6 months but with all of the panic buying that has taken place as of late the wait's may spike a little higher.

That should keep you below your 2k initial budget (to include the stamps) and gives you 6 months to both save for and acquire an upper, and once your stamps come in you will be ready to roll, vs. waiting 6 deciding you really want/need a suppressor and then waiting an additional 6 months for it to get approved.

I can also vouch for the once you go suppressed, is really hard to not shoot suppressed.

I have no affiliation 'other than being a highly satisfied customer' to silencershop.com but I highly recommend them, Dave and everyone else over there are solid knowledgeable guys.
They also have M42k's, Mini 4's, Saker's & Specwars currently in stock! (and I believe last time I was in there they had a few factory SBR's.)

Quality NFA/Pistol Uppers are impossible to find right now (ask me how I know)

Best,
Jay

Kyle Reese
05-01-2013, 12:23 PM
Quality NFA/Pistol Uppers are impossible to find right now (ask me how I know)

Best,
Jay

Found THIS (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3533) :cool:

Jay
05-01-2013, 12:36 PM
Found THIS (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3533) :cool:

Everything about that upper is awesome, except it is exactly 2" longer than what my stamp says. The day Noveske 10.5's become available my inbox will implode, and my cell phone will explode from all of the stock notifications I have out there. I have literally spoken to every noveske dealer in the country, including california, because hey you never know right?

Dan_S
05-02-2013, 12:06 PM
Everything about that upper is awesome, except it is exactly 2" longer than what my stamp says. The day Noveske 10.5's become available my inbox will implode, and my cell phone will explode from all of the stock notifications I have out there. I have literally spoken to every noveske dealer in the country, including california, because hey you never know right?

There's one dealer that I promise that you didn't call....


And no, don't bother, since he doesn't have one either... :p



FredM, I'm wondering if you have a DD MK18...?? If so, I'm curious how many rounds you have through it, and if you have any other thoughts on the carbine that you'd be willing to share...

Chuck Whitlock
05-02-2013, 01:04 PM
Everything about that upper is awesome, except it is exactly 2" longer than what my stamp says. The day Noveske 10.5's become available my inbox will implode, and my cell phone will explode from all of the stock notifications I have out there. I have literally spoken to every noveske dealer in the country, including california, because hey you never know right?

I may be out of my lane, but I was under the impression that you could go ANY length over what the stamp says...you just cannot go UNDER the stated length.

Dan_S
05-02-2013, 01:49 PM
I may be out of my lane, but I was under the impression that you could go ANY length over what the stamp says...you just cannot go UNDER the stated length.

And I may be out of my lane here, but I don't think it matters - as long as you are not making a "permanent modification" to the weapon, it is my understanding that you can do whatever you jolly well please.

If you're worried about it, just send ATF a letter (as you would do if you were making a permanent modification to the weapon,) stating that you are going to put whatever length barrel on your registered receiver, and call it a day....

Zhurdan
05-02-2013, 02:13 PM
And I may be out of my lane here, but I don't think it matters - as long as you are not making a "permanent modification" to the weapon, it is my understanding that you can do whatever you jolly well please.

If you're worried about it, just send ATF a letter (as you would do if you were making a permanent modification to the weapon,) stating that you are going to put whatever length barrel on your registered receiver, and call it a day....

From atf.gov



Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.

My understanding is that you have to maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on your form. Beyond that, put whatever the heck you want on it. ;) So if you register it as a 10.5", keep that upper around.

Kyle Reese
05-02-2013, 02:58 PM
There's one dealer that I promise that you didn't call....


And no, don't bother, since he doesn't have one either... :p



FredM, I'm wondering if you have a DD MK18...?? If so, I'm curious how many rounds you have through it, and if you have any other thoughts on the carbine that you'd be willing to share...

No direct experience on the MK 18, but have been using DD products for years, and feel confident recommending their carbines to people in the market for a quality AR.

I've toyed with getting a DD MK18 and suppressor, but the price of 5.56mm is going to put that project on hold indefinitely.

Dan_S
05-02-2013, 03:38 PM
No direct experience on the MK 18, but have been using DD products for years, and feel confident recommending their carbines to people in the market for a quality AR.


OK, thanks.

I've just been bitten in the past by certain manufacturers, and DD was one of them. I was considering a DD factory SBR at one point, but after seeing about eight carbines from them that had various tolerance issues, I was a little hesitant to go with them for an NFA item...

Odin Bravo One
05-02-2013, 04:54 PM
I have been shooting the Mk18 since it's inception, and I don't have any issues recommending one. It is also a Frankengun set up, with a Colt lower and DD upper. Works just fine. They are also made out of materials in use by mere mortals.

As for the Noveske products, the dealers are standing in line behind several agency orders. They are about as unobtainable as any item in the shooting world. They are simply not taking orders for just about anything right now as they are booked solid beyond the foreseeable future. Add to that, the loss of the Patriarch just a few short months ago, that they are producing anything at all is amazing. Still, I wouldn't plan on seeing anything coming out of NR for quite some time.

I just put in an order for $160k worth of rifles, and was told they could not quote me a delivery time frame. At all. Not even a guess.

ETA: As for the barrel length varying from what is on the Form 1/4, you can fill out an amendment form, advising the ATF of a change in appearance and length. It does not require another $200, and simply becomes an additional form you and the ATF keep on hand. Talk to a knowledgeable FFL/SOT, and they can walk you through it.

Jay
05-02-2013, 10:04 PM
From atf.gov




My understanding is that you have to maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on your form. Beyond that, put whatever the heck you want on it. ;) So if you register it as a 10.5", keep that upper around.

This is correct, and without having a 10.5" on hand I am unwilling to purchase a different length at this time.

I just have better things to do than run afoul of the ATF on my first and only SBR.:p

Hadn't read Sean's Post Prior to responding. I am aware of all of my options, that being said thank you all for the input.

It does suck, but I am so busy with the business right now that even if I did have it, it would just be collecting dust for the foreseeable future. I am slowly building decent reserves of 5.56 so that when the upper and time do present themselves she is gonna need one hell of a cleaning.
I am starting to see Shorty Basics pop up online for reasonable prices, the only problem there is everyone wants a check in advance (no PayPal) and at this point just random individuals on forums to which I do not belong, so I am slightly less than willing to blindly mail out $800-$1100 blindly.

I will find one eventually,and everyone here will know when the ALL CAPS LOCK THREAD gets posted.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and my apologies to the OP for the drift my original post created.

Regards,
Jay

Kyle Reese
05-04-2013, 11:00 AM
BCM 11.5 " URG (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3641)

Drang
05-04-2013, 11:03 AM
Rainier Arms™ | Browse | Bravo Company MFG - BCM | BCM Upper Receiver BFH 11.5" Carbine (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3641)
Fixt.
Hmm. Second or third time I've hit their website this morning. Maybe I should drop in and see what they have in the store.

Kyle Reese
05-04-2013, 11:09 AM
Fixt.
Hmm. Second or third time I've hit their website this morning. Maybe I should drop in and see what they have in the store.

When I get an SBR, it'll have an 11.5 or 12.5 inch BCM upper.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Odin Bravo One
05-04-2013, 01:17 PM
I am starting to see Shorty Basics pop up online for reasonable prices, the only problem there is everyone wants a check in advance (no PayPal) and at this point just random individuals on forums to which I do not belong, so I am slightly less than willing to blindly mail out $800-$1100 blindly.

Regards,
Jay

I would definitely follow that gut instinct.

Don't get caught up in "I want it now!" syndrome, and end up with some piece of kitten upper. There is a big difference between places like BCM and Model 1 Sales, and other off-brand fly by night, color glossy magazine advertisement guns. There is more to building a reliable SBR upper than assembling parts, and anyone looking to SBR an AR-15 type rifle would be well served to follow the adage of "Buy quality and cry once". You don't need to drop $1995.00 on a Noveske CQBR, but 800-1100 for who knows what, or worse......knowingly buying a piece of kitten based on price alone, and thinking it will not crap outside of the litter box.

Jay
05-04-2013, 06:44 PM
There is more to building a reliable SBR upper than assembling parts, and anyone looking to SBR an AR-15 type rifle would be well served to follow the adage of "Buy quality and cry once". You don't need to drop $1995.00 on a Noveske CQBR, but 800-1100 for who knows what, or worse......knowingly buying a piece of kitten based on price alone, and thinking it will not crap outside of the litter box.

Yeah, there are a LOT of franken-uppers out there. The few 'supposed' Noveske Uppers I have considered bidding on @ GunBroker all turned out to be built by seller / sellers buddy or my favorite 'i don't know?, its a Noveske'. If it wan't made in Grants Pass, I don't want it.

I was also speaking about a Noveske Shorty Basic Upper, not a complete gun. A factory Noveske SBR for $1500 would set off all types of bells and 'DANGER WILL ROBINSONS'.

Odin Bravo One
05-04-2013, 06:51 PM
Yeah, there are a LOT of franken-uppers out there. The few 'supposed' Noveske Uppers I have considered bidding on @ GunBroker all turned out to be built by seller / sellers buddy or my favorite 'i don't know?, its a Noveske'. If it wan't made in Grants Pass, I don't want it.

I was also speaking about a Noveske Shorty Basic Upper, not a complete gun. A factory Noveske SBR for $1500 would set off all types of bells and 'DANGER WILL ROBINSONS'.

Ok..........I'm tracking now. Got hung up on the "Basic" which took my mind to "Model 1 Sales" and the like........my mistake. I'm half retarded sometimes.

I have seen a ton of "Noveske" stuff out there marketed just as you describe. It became so rampant on complete guns that John started doing the Noveske cross on the upper/lower for all complete builds from the factory versus some dude who bought an upper and lower with Dr. No's stamp/rollmark and assembled the rest with junk and "who knows". The etching was never in the same place twice, so it was a way to protect the integrity of the name, and reputation of true Noveske factory built guns.

And a factory Noveske SBR for $1500? Would set of my bank alert...........I'd max out my card if they would let me buy more than one at a time!

Rick Finsta
05-06-2013, 10:09 AM
I would not recommend filing amendments with ATF - they really don't care. As long as you've got your stamp and your lower is engraved, you're GTG.

I've heard that many times the amendment forms take over a year to be processed, with several calls back and forth due to the fact that they are really not set up to handle the amendments.

BWT
05-06-2013, 03:20 PM
I would advise against buying an SBR Upper with a Lower receiver waiting for approval in hand. Maybe if it was a Pistol Lower.

But that's the advise I subscribed too in your situation. I have a 12.5 waiting to come to me, but I have a complete AR15 already. I wouldn't bring home a SBR upper to it without a stamp. YMMV

Josh Runkle
05-06-2013, 09:30 PM
OP: you'll eventually buy both, so either one is a fine choice. And yes, do not purchase an SBR upper without a stamp for an SBR lower if you already have another lower in your possession.

Rick Finsta
05-14-2013, 08:02 AM
If the ATF is digging through your safe to see how many uppers you have, and matching them to lowers to see if they can railroad you on constructive intent/possession* then you are already going to jail, whether you did something wrong or not. Worrying about that at this point is superfluous; just don't put the damed thing together.

*Which I can't see even being a real threat since the TC decision anyways - IANAL, etc.

themonk
05-14-2013, 11:49 AM
I am going to start the process of getting an SBR & suppressor and have a quick random question. I will be setting up a trust and have a house in VA and one in WV. 80% of my shooting is done at the house in WV. Should I register it in WV? Can I move it back and forth between states under the trust?

Odin Bravo One
05-14-2013, 12:09 PM
Once the Form 1, or whatever has been approved, you can submit for an amendment that allows possession in each state without having to submit a "Mother May I" form each time it moves. They are generally good for one year at a time.

BWT
05-14-2013, 12:50 PM
If the ATF is digging through your safe to see how many uppers you have, and matching them to lowers to see if they can railroad you on constructive intent/possession* then you are already going to jail, whether you did something wrong or not. Worrying about that at this point is superfluous; just don't put the damed thing together.

*Which I can't see even being a real threat since the TC decision anyways - IANAL, etc.

Personally, I don't like taking chances with the Law and other people. And actually, if you're not in violation, you're not in violation. You still have the right to a fair trial in the United States. I would NOT advise taking home a constructive SBR because "You'll probably be okay." How bad of an idea. You've got your paperwork submitted, and impatience would destroy you. You can't shoot the Illegal SBR unless you're hoping no LE shows up or is at the range.

There's literally no benefit, in the slightest to not waiting.

Rick Finsta
05-15-2013, 03:04 PM
Forgive me, but I've heard that gun counter guy bullshit too often to let it go; your statement also lacks internal logical consistency. Is the ATF going to, or not going to, prosecute you for something you did not do? You want it both ways. If you'd like to have a discussion on the TC decision and its implications in this, or perhaps have other determination letters I haven't seen, then let's have at it.

That put aside, if you think that there is NO BENEFIT to buying parts when they become available during a shortage, rather than when you need them RFN..., well I'm not sure where to go from there.

My advice stands on its own merits: Wait until you have your stamp to assemble your SBR. Unless and until you do that, you've broken no laws. Don't get cute, but don't get all worked up about shit you can't control, either.

Sparks2112
05-15-2013, 03:10 PM
Forgive me, but I've heard that gun counter guy bullshit too often to let it go; your statement also lacks internal logical consistency. Is the ATF going to, or not going to, prosecute you for something you did not do? You want it both ways. If you'd like to have a discussion on the TC decision and its implications in this, or perhaps have other determination letters I haven't seen, then let's have at it.

That put aside, if you think that there is NO BENEFIT to buying parts when they become available during a shortage, rather than when you need them RFN..., well I'm not sure where to go from there.

My advice stands on its own merits: Wait until you have your stamp to assemble your SBR. Unless and until you do that, you've broken no laws. Don't get cute, but don't get all worked up about shit you can't control, either.

If you don't think the ATF WILL jack you up over a technicality if they feel like it then you haven't been paying attention the last 20+ years. I am not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that in certain situations it doesn't matter how right you are.

Zhurdan
05-15-2013, 05:41 PM
Once the Form 1, or whatever has been approved, you can submit for an amendment that allows possession in each state without having to submit a "Mother May I" form each time it moves. They are generally good for one year at a time.

As a follow up and to make it easy peasy... Here's the form you need.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-20.pdf

One thing though, and I guess it's getting picky, the form is good for transporting a title II firearm to a specific address as far as I understand it. Can anyone shed any light on weather or not it's good for the whole state (assuming that state allows it)? I've filled out a form for multiple addresses in different states to attend rifle classes, and getting one for the whole state would be far easier, methinks.

Dan_S
05-15-2013, 06:21 PM
Forgive me, but I've heard that gun counter guy bullshit too often to let it go; your statement also lacks internal logical consistency. Is the ATF going to, or not going to, prosecute you for something you did not do? You want it both ways. If you'd like to have a discussion on the TC decision and its implications in this, or perhaps have other determination letters I haven't seen, then let's have at it.

That put aside, if you think that there is NO BENEFIT to buying parts when they become available during a shortage, rather than when you need them RFN..., well I'm not sure where to go from there.

My advice stands on its own merits: Wait until you have your stamp to assemble your SBR. Unless and until you do that, you've broken no laws. Don't get cute, but don't get all worked up about shit you can't control, either.

Please, people!

Knock off the hyperbole, and listen to logic.....

BWT
05-15-2013, 07:55 PM
Forgive me, but I've heard that gun counter guy bullshit too often to let it go; your statement also lacks internal logical consistency. Is the ATF going to, or not going to, prosecute you for something you did not do? You want it both ways. If you'd like to have a discussion on the TC decision and its implications in this, or perhaps have other determination letters I haven't seen, then let's have at it.

That put aside, if you think that there is NO BENEFIT to buying parts when they become available during a shortage, rather than when you need them RFN..., well I'm not sure where to go from there.

My advice stands on its own merits: Wait until you have your stamp to assemble your SBR. Unless and until you do that, you've broken no laws. Don't get cute, but don't get all worked up about shit you can't control, either.

I'm going to say this as politely as possible.

Waco Texas happened over a raid over alleged MG's, Ruby Ridge happened over an illegal SBS. People have died over this, people have gone to prison.

Have constructive parts, is enough. If you drill a 3rd hole in an AR-15 it is a MG in the eyes of the ATF. If you put a shoe string on an M1A it is a Machine Gun in the eyes of the ATF.

This doesn't have to make sense or be what we like. But it is the Law, and it is a legal system. Not a system of justice. There is a distinct difference. I'd argue that I'm probably one of the most pro-gun people I know. Like when it gets down to reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal nitty gritty. I don't believe there should be restrictions on weapons of any kind, any where, any time.

The ONLY Reason the Thompson Center Contender was ruled as a Non-SBR is because it came with a kit with both a stock and a short barrel and a pistol grip and a short barrel, and that was an exception after it went to, ding ding ding, you guessed it. http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html The Supreme Court.


This means that a consumer may possess the pistol with its 10" barrel and may use the kit parts to make a rifle with the 21" barrel, as long as the shoulder stock is not assembled onto the receiver at the same time as the 10" barrel.

I'm going to say this as kindly as possible. Your advice is negligent to someone who has a thread on "Advice On First NFA Purchase", obviously he doesn't know crap about NFA, and he's looking for sound advice.

Dude if you want to get ballsy, buy MG parts and have them with AR-15's in your possession, play the retarded games, if you want to get ballsy, do it.

But don't give crappy advice to someone else and then go "Hey, if they want you, they're gonna get you anyway." That's just unfair to somebody that's ignorant that will pay the consequences of your advice.

What I'd ask of you is advice from any ATF source, ANY letter you can find that says it's okay to have the parts to have ALL of the parts to assemble a MG or an SBR and it not be constructive intent.

Kyle Reese
05-15-2013, 08:12 PM
ALCON,

Please review and heed the following RULES (http://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules) pertaining to conduct here on Pistol-Forum.

In particular -




Under absolutely no circumstances should you ever:

Post comments in support of criminal violence or other illegal activities, including illegal modifications of firearms.


Consider this a friendly warning.

Advocating illegal activities will not be tolerated here.

Thank you for your kind attention.

V/R
FredM

BWT
05-16-2013, 04:30 PM
I'd like to apologize for suggesting that, thinking about it it was an off color comment. At this point, I've expressed my concerns, both appropriately and inappropriately.

I'm going to just apologize and leave this thread as it is.