Breaking News: McCain received letter from Obama that Syria HAS used chem weapons

[BaiHu]

http://inagist.com/all/327442393253175297/

From AP


ABU DHABI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says the Syrian regime has likely used chemical weapons on a "small scale."

Hagel was speaking to reporters in Abu Dhabi. He says the White House has informed members of Congress that, within the last day, U.S. intelligence concluded with "some degree of varying confidence" that Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime has used chemical weapons — specifically sarin gas.

Hagel says, quote, "It violates every convention of warfare."

President Barack Obama has said the use of chemical weapons would be a "game-changer" in the U.S. position on intervening in the two-year-old Syrian civil war.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/hagel-syria-has-used-chemical-weapons

[Kyle Reese]

Alleged nerve gas attack in Syria (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398691/Syria-Nerve-gas-attack-near-Damascus-kills-1-300-including-women-children.html)

IVO Damascus.

NSFW

[NETim]

Bush lied.

[Chuck Haggard]

That mess is a fratricidal gang fight, and we have no way of knowing who actually used gas.

[MGW]

It goes with out saying that this is bad.

#1 NATO is going to feel forced to act because of the use if WMD.

#2 I don't trust Obama to choose the right course of action.

#3 I don't know if there is a correct course of action at this point. This is a civil war with no sides worthy of aligning with. Any involvement by the US will only destabilize an already very unstable region.

#4 Israel is in a bad spot. They are going to act the question is when and where. Turkey, Syria, Iran, and on and on pose a serious threat to their security. A rational argument could be made that they will hit Iran and Syria at the same time. If that happens, all bets are off on when it stops. The West Bank will be in play when the shooting starts which draws in countries such as Turkey.

There is no way the US will not be involved in this in a munch bigger way. I truly believe the current administration will kitten it up. I'm not one to defend this administration but I'm not sure there is anyway to "fix" anything at this point. I don't see how this can get better before it gets worse.

[Suvorov]

So what exactly would Assad gain from ordering a gas attack against civilians in a suburb of his capital city? A city which he has held for the most part. :confused:

[ToddG]

I'm pulling this from memory so check my facts...

Between when George Dubya said we had to go into Iraq due to WMDs and we actually went into Iraq, there was a long pause (about a month?) due to Congressional wrangling or UN wrangling or something.

During that time, one or more large convoys were seen going from Iraq to its happy-friendly-shiny neighbor, Syria.

No WMDs were found in Iraq.

WMDs exist in Syria.

When all the "no WMDs in Iraq" announcements hit the airwaves I very distinctly remember screaming at the television about that delay and the ease of shipping containers of liquid chemicals via truck.

I know Sean, TGS, and some others are way more knowledgable and up to date on all this than I, so seriously, if I'm totally off base just say so.

[Chuck Haggard]

So what exactly would Assad gain from ordering a gas attack against civilians in a suburb of his capital city? A city which he has held for the most part. :confused:

Exactly.



No WMDs were found in Iraq.

WMDs exist in Syria.


Pretty much

[MGW]

I'm pulling this from memory so check my facts...

Between when George Dubya said we had to go into Iraq due to WMDs and we actually went into Iraq, there was a long pause (about a month?) due to Congressional wrangling or UN wrangling or something.

During that time, one or more large convoys were seen going from Iraq to its happy-friendly-shiny neighbor, Syria.

No WMDs were found in Iraq.

WMDs exist in Syria.

When all the "no WMDs in Iraq" announcements hit the airwaves I very distinctly remember screaming at the television about that delay and the ease of shipping containers of liquid chemicals via truck.

I know Sean, TGS, and some others are way more knowledgable and up to date on all this than I, so seriously, if I'm totally off base just say so.

And I believe that was Hussein's plan the entire time. Stock them close to the border and make them disappear before anyone could find them. Unfortunately for him he miscalculated, we marched all the way to BIAP, and his own people decided to string him up.

My question is, how long did we know they were in Syria and why didn't we scream for sanctions then? I'm not saying it would help. I just don't understand why we have always been hands off with Syria? I mean, talk about a terrorist haven. They run the freakin country!

[Kyle Reese]

And I believe that was Hussein's plan the entire time. Stock them close to the border and make them disappear before anyone could find them. Unfortunately for him he miscalculated, we marched all the way to BIAP, and his own people decided to string him up.

My question is, how long did we know they were in Syria and why didn't we scream for sanctions then? I'm not saying it would help. I just don't understand why we have always been hands off with Syria? I mean, talk about a terrorist haven. They run the freakin country!

Long story short - Syria is a long standing client state of Russia and the Alawite ruling class in Syria are a wholly owned subsidiary of Iran.

If I had to guess as to the reasons we've been hesitant to initiate hostilities against Syria (during the Iraq War);

-The "war weary" American public wouldn't look kindly on another protracted land war and subsequent occupation of another Middle Eastern state.

-Iran would inevitably respond with IRGC/Quds, to include attacks on Western targets, troops in the AO and possibly Israel.

-Hizballah and other Iranian proxies get involved in the AO.

-The complexities of waging another counter-insurgency campaign, and the inevitable loss of our American service members.

-The Russian response would be ________?

Just a layman's opinion, but I think an invasion of Syria would have had dire and unintended consequences.

[MK11]

But Syria and Saddam hated each other. If the Syrian ruling party is closely aligned with Iraq's longtime enemy Iran, why would Saddam stash WMDs in Syria? The friend of my enemy is my....

[Suvorov]

It really makes no sense to me for Assad to be behind this. Not that he isn't blood thirsty enough to do it, but it would be politically stupid beyond belief. The best thing he can hope for is for the west to stay out of Syria an for Russia and China to watch his back in the UN. If it is proven that he ordered the killing of 1300 civilians then I don't see how he will get away without the west becoming much more involved in the conflict.

Did they ever pin the previous attack on him?

How much control does he have on his military?

An accident during movement of weapons?

A staged attack by the rebels? I'm not even so sure they want a heavy western involvement.

This whole thing just makes no sense. The early 20th century Balkan States were less combustible than the Mid East is now.

[TCinVA]

The prerequisite for military action is political will...and no one in the world thinks the United States has the political will to wade into a fight in the middle east right now. No one in the world takes our current leadership seriously. In fact, we're rather a laughing stock at the moment due to the rank amatuerishness of the people in charge.

Aside from that, even if we were primed and ready to intervene at this point the people who would most benefit would be radical islamists of the Al-Quaeda strain. It's one of those situations in which there's no real good guy. Assad is a punk and puppet for other interests (Iran, Russia) and the other side is precisely the sort of militant islamists we've been killing around the globe for the last 10 years.

There never has been any "red line" on Syria and the world knows it.

At worst the UN may hold a meeting to select a committee to consider the possibility of sending Assad a strongly worded letter to condemn the use of chemical weapons and warn that deliberations are ongoing to decide if there will be a special session held to maybe think about imposing some sanctions.

Assuming the reports are true, I would imagine that Assad and his backers don't think that the west is going to do anything meaningful about it...and they're probably dead on the money. Russia can block any meaningful UN action and nobody is going to be eager to put boots on the ground against Assad enabling radical islamist militants in Syria any more than they have been to protect radical islamist militants in Egypt.

[Drang]

We found no WMDs in Iraq.
WMDs exist in Syria.
In point of fact, we found quite a bit of chem munitions in Iraq.

[TGS]

I've been busy as hell. 8 hour day turned into a 13, so forgive me if new info has popped up.

Something to ponder:

Why are all the people handling the sick and dead not wearing protective gear? You don't just handle CRBN victims without decon and protective gear. They'd all be sick and dead now, as well.

hmmmm.

[Kyle Reese]

I've been busy as hell. 8 hour day turned into a 13, so forgive me if new info has popped up.

Something to ponder:

Why are all the people handling the sick and dead not wearing protective gear? You don't just handle CRBN victims without decon and protective gear. They'd all be sick and dead now, as well.

hmmmm.

NBC kit might be in short supply for the first responders, or they might be sick or dead by now.

[MGW]

Long story short - Syria is a long standing client state of Russia and the Alawite ruling class in Syria are a wholly owned subsidiary of Iran.

If I had to guess as to the reasons we've been hesitant to initiate hostilities against Syria (during the Iraq War);

-The "war weary" American public wouldn't look kindly on another protracted land war and subsequent occupation of another Middle Eastern state.

-Iran would inevitably respond with IRGC/Quds, to include attacks on Western targets, troops in the AO and possibly Israel.

-Hizballah and other Iranian proxies get involved in the AO.

-The complexities of waging another counter-insurgency campaign, and the inevitable loss of our American service members.

-The Russian response would be ________?

Just a layman's opinion, but I think an invasion of Syria would have had dire and unintended consequences.

Agree on all points. The standard reaction for terrorist states has been sanctions aimed at shutting down their economy. To my knowledge this has never happened. Do you think this would get the above mentioned countries involved too?

I'm not saying sanctions help anything. Just curious.

[MGW]

I've been busy as hell. 8 hour day turned into a 13, so forgive me if new info has popped up.

Something to ponder:

Why are all the people handling the sick and dead not wearing protective gear? You don't just handle CRBN victims without decon and protective gear. They'd all be sick and dead now, as well.

hmmmm.

It's been awhile since I've had meaningful, or really paid attention to, NBC training. But if memory serves correct the risk with a nerve agent would be low unless there was skin contact or inhalation of the product. It's basically the same thing they kill bugs with but less diluted of course.

Someone more knowledgable than me would need to chime in.

Nasty way to die.

[Kyle Reese]

Agree on all points. The standard reaction for terrorist states has been sanctions aimed at shutting down their economy. To my knowledge this has never happened. Do you think this would get the above mentioned countries involved too?

I'm not saying sanctions help anything. Just curious.

Sanctions? They'd most likely be ignored by Russia and have a predictable outcome.

[NickA]

At worst the UN may hold a meeting to select a committee to consider the possibility of sending Assad a strongly worded letter to condemn the use of chemical weapons and warn that deliberations are ongoing to decide if there will be a special session held to maybe think about imposing some sanctions.


Hey now, let's not go flying off the handle and act hastily :cool:

Awesomely said as always.

[Tamara]

#1 NATO is going to feel forced to act because of the use if WMD.

Why? Last time a Middle Eastern dictator nerve-gassed his own people most of NATO didn't seem to give much of a kitten.

[BLR]

NBC kit might be in short supply for the first responders, or they might be sick or dead by now.

The type of chem weapon (I refuse to believe a bio weapon was used) determines the persistence. Even the dispersal mode will influence how long something will remain toxic.

Something simple could easily be oxidized by sunlight and air within hours.

[Chuck Haggard]

Looking at who would get the most out of this atrocity I am strongly of the opinion that the rebels did this to their own people just for the press.

How would such an attack help the Syrian .gov win this fight? Especially when they know what the reaction would be for them using gas.

[Tamara]

Looking at who would get the most out of this atrocity I am strongly of the opinion that the rebels did this to their own people just for the press.

How would such an attack help the Syrian .gov win this fight? Especially when they know what the reaction would be for them using gas.

What reaction? Russia's covering for him and the dictator next door nerve gassed people from here to Christmas and nobody said "Boo!"

So far the only response from the US has been a bunch of hand-wringing at 30 Rock and some snippy Tweets (https://twitter.com/AmbassadorRice/status/371024011267821568) from Susan Rice.

(Personally, I think this is another great war for us to not get involved in.)

[Chuck Haggard]

What reaction? Russia's covering for him and the dictator next door nerve gassed people from here to Christmas and nobody said "Boo!"

So far the only response from the US has been a bunch of hand-wringing at 30 Rock and some snippy Tweets (https://twitter.com/AmbassadorRice/status/371024011267821568) from Susan Rice.

(Personally, I think this is another great war for us to not get involved in.)

And previous to the nerve agent use we had POTUS saying how it would be a game changer and all. That we didn't follow through (yet maybe...) doesn't mean they didn't have the motivation to do so for the press and to see if we would in fact jump into that fight. It's not like we didn't in Libya already.

Of course, from watching how many other countries handle things like building codes and traffic safety I supposed this stuff could have just fallen off of a truck somehow.

[MGW]

Why? Last time a Middle Eastern dictator nerve-gassed his own people most of NATO didn't seem to give much of a kitten.

Because the international media will not let it die and Obamma will feel obligated to do something that looks presidential.

And I agree, this looks like one that we should not be involved in.

I've been to a few places in my lifetime. I have no desire to go to Syria. The Ivory Coast is the other place I have no desire to go to.

[MGW]

I stand corrected. If this Wiki is true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Syria there have been economic sanctions on Syria.

[JMorse]

Nothing to add, but those videos are sad. What a horrible way to go.

[EMC]

I've been busy as hell. 8 hour day turned into a 13, so forgive me if new info has popped up.

Something to ponder:

Why are all the people handling the sick and dead not wearing protective gear? You don't just handle CRBN victims without decon and protective gear. They'd all be sick and dead now, as well.

hmmmm.

In the 1950's the Army at Dugway proving grounds frequently tested chemical nerve agents (artillery delivered) on live animals for testing and demonstrations. The unfortunate personnel assigned to dispose of the carcasses didn't have the necessary protective gear while disposing of the animals. They didn't die right away, just from the effects later in life. Known as the "Survivors of Dugway" they used to have a website detailing the testing and the lack of safety oversight, but I believe the site is gone now.

Edit: Looks like it's back under a different URL now: http://www.project-112shad-fdn.com/

[TCinVA]

Nothing to add, but those videos are sad. What a horrible way to go.

Yeah...about those videos...

The middle east has developed a specialty of staging tear-jerking photos and video meant for the eyes of the west. So when I see a bunch of "dead" children I always keep open the idea that I might be looking at complete fabrication. The rebel side doesn't seem to be shy about using children in fighting, either. Personally I wouldn't be handing my 10 year old an AK and putting him in the thick of the fighting, but some of these people are. So the notion that one side or the other is really the bad guys because they're "killing children" really doesn't work so well.

[Tamara]

Best Tweet on the topic so far: "When al Qaeda is fighting Hezbollah, I'm on Team Popcorn."

[NEPAKevin]

Yeah...about those videos...

The middle east has developed a specialty of staging tear-jerking photos and video meant for the eyes of the west. So when I see a bunch of "dead" children I always keep open the idea that I might be looking at complete fabrication. The rebel side doesn't seem to be shy about using children in fighting, either. Personally I wouldn't be handing my 10 year old an AK and putting him in the thick of the fighting, but some of these people are. So the notion that one side or the other is really the bad guys because they're "killing children" really doesn't work so well.

And at the same time, the west seems to have little problem turning a blind eye toward the "old school" barbarity that has perpetrated in the various African civil wars with death tolls estimated in the millions, and continues today. Last week in Nigeria, Jehadis slit the throats of 44 villagers and gouged the eyes of survivors and instead, people are upset that Miley Cyrus did a skanky routine at the MTV awards?. WTS

[MGW]

Best Tweet on the topic so far: "When al Qaeda is fighting Hezbollah, I'm on Team Popcorn."

Love it.

Watching the headlines though and I'm starting to feel another Obama "we have to do something" speeches coming on. This time the subject will be military action in Syria and not taking away guns.

[TCinVA]

And at the same time, the west seems to have little problem turning a blind eye toward the "old school" barbarity that has perpetrated in the various African civil wars with death tolls estimated in the millions, and continues today. Last week in Nigeria, Jehadis slit the throats of 44 villagers and gouged the eyes of survivors and instead, people are upset that Miley Cyrus did a skanky routine at the MTV awards?. WTS

Well, in fairness, what would you rather think about? Miley Cyrus acting like a methed out stripper or truly evil men slitting people's throats and gouging out people's eyes?

People don't like trying to contemplate evil, and don't really want to come to terms that the sort of dude who slits throats and gouges out eyes is running around out there free as a song and hoping to visit violence upon them someday.

I was in a class on computer forensics aimed at future law enforcement officers and the instructor described some of the horrible things people do to children in the course of showing how digital forensics contributed to real criminal cases and putting real bad guys behind bars. The students barely reacted because their brain wasn't able to comprehend what was being said. It was like water off a duck's back.

Miley doing stuff with a foam finger they can come to grips with.

[Tamara]

This time the subject will be military action in Syria and not taking away guns.

Here's hoping he's as successful with the former as he was with the latter. ;)

[UgoDadeo]

We take out limited targets to stand against chemical weapons, we help the Saudi's with their goal of toppling Assad and we help the jihadist??


From Stratfor

The Syrian Conflict and Converging Interests (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical-diary/syrian-conflict-and-converging-interests?topics=267) (may have to sign up for free article)

Geopolitical Diary
Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 02:21

Jihadist forces dominating the rebel landscape in Syria are in a quandary about impending U.S. airstrikes in Syria. While they cannot be seen as supporting Washington military intervention in an Arab-Muslim country, the jihadists have an interest in Washington becoming deeply involved in the Syrian conflict. This is the point at which jihadist interests converge with those of Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia wants the United States to topple the Syrian regime. Meanwhile, the United States does not wish to topple the regime, which puts Washington's interests in line with those of Iran.

<... body of article deleted ... please follow forum rules on copyright ...>

Read more: The Syrian Conflict and Converging Interests | Stratfor
Follow us: @stratfor on Twitter | Stratfor on Facebook

[UgoDadeo]

http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/graphs/2013/08/ME.jpg

[Kyle Reese]

I told one mouth breather today (who sounded like General Patton) that the Armed Forces are still taking applicants if he felt so strongly that the United States needed to commit ground forces to "do something" in Syria.

[BaiHu]

At least our administration is reacting the right way :p

-One U.S. official who has been briefed on the options on Syria said he believed the White House would seek a level of intensity "just muscular enough not to get mocked" but not so devastating that it would prompt a response from Syrian allies Iran and Russia.-

Seriously?

From this link: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77184921/

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[TCinVA]

I told one mouth breather today (who sounded like General Patton) that the Armed Forces are still taking applicants if he felt so strongly that the United States needed to commit ground forces to "do something" in Syria.

...actually with the sequester...:o


At least our administration is reacting the right way :p

-One U.S. official who has been briefed on the options on Syria said he believed the White House would seek a level of intensity "just muscular enough not to get mocked" but not so devastating that it would prompt a response from Syrian allies Iran and Russia.-

Seriously?


In reality it's what the world figures we will do. Somebody saying it out loud is just saying what everybody else is thinking. Frankly I think it makes the current leadership look even more anemic than they already did. It would be quite another thing if the forthcoming action would be designed to severely reduce Assad's military superiority over the rebels so that Assad and the Al Quaeda types lusting for his power can stay locked in a bloody struggle killing each other off as much as possible.

It would be temporary, of course, as Russia would re-arm Assad pretty quickly, but it would actually achieve something of some remote strategic value by helping a couple of enemies to bleed each other a little more.

What we're most likely to do is be as ineffectual as possible, which is worse than doing nothing, IMO. Whatever WMD's Assad has are probably being moved around and any meaningful attempt to take them out will guarantee civilian casualties because they're probably parking them in schools and orphanages as per the usual ME handbook.

If we wanted to do something serious without actually wasting good munitions, start putting sanctions on Russia. They're backing Assad and keeping the guy in power, so get right in Putin's face with it and lay all of it on Putin's doorstep. Along with the repressive moves he's made in Russia. That would be an approach with some actual muscle. Pin dead children on Russia and make Putin squirm. And you don't even have to fire a shot.

Of course, much of the world would probably get all queasy about that. Which goes to show that gassed Syrian kids really don't matter all that much to anybody in all this crap.

[BaiHu]

....What we're most likely to do is be as ineffectual as possible, which is worse than doing nothing, IMO. Whatever WMD's Assad has are probably being moved around and any meaningful attempt to take them out will guarantee civilian casualties because they're probably parking them in schools and orphanages as per the usual ME handbook.

If we wanted to do something serious without actually wasting good munitions, start putting sanctions on Russia. They're backing Assad and keeping the guy in power, so get right in Putin's face with it and lay all of it on Putin's doorstep. Along with the repressive moves he's made in Russia. That would be an approach with some actual muscle. Pin dead children on Russia and make Putin squirm. And you don't even have to fire a shot.

Of course, much of the world would probably get all queasy about that. Which goes to show that gassed Syrian kids really don't matter all that much to anybody in all this crap.

My sentiments exactly and the Putin imagery is pretty rockin'. God it sucks when you have a pansy for a leader and a population that wouldn't understand reality outside of the ones the Kardashians produce.

On another note, it feels a little bit like the lead up to Iraq with the whole UN inspector hide/seek b.s.

The world has a funny way of making people see their hypocrisy, if they're capable of looking at something other than a fun house mirror image created by their media 'yes men'.

[LHS]

It's also given the media a convenient excuse to stop talking about Beghazi, the IRS, NSA, Snowden, Fast & Furious, etc. The whole thing stinks of Wag the Dog.


My sentiments exactly and the Putin imagery is pretty rockin'. God it sucks when you have a pansy for a leader and a population that wouldn't understand reality outside of the ones the Kardashians produce.

On another note, it feels a little bit like the lead up to Iraq with the whole UN inspector hide/seek b.s.

The world has a funny way of making people see their hypocrisy, if they're capable of looking at something other than a fun house mirror image created by their media 'yes men'.

[RoyGBiv]

Just when you start thinking it can't get any worse, now POTUS is deciding the fate of Syria based on Quinnipiac polling.

"What should I do that will have the least negative impact on my image and allow me to get back to implementing my socialist agenda (and playing golf)?. I know, I'll send Joe and John out to float some ideas and see which polls most favorably."

There's not a facepalm adequate enough to convey my feelings.

[Suvorov]

Of course, much of the world would probably get all queasy about that. Which goes to show that gassed Syrian kids really don't matter all that much to anybody in all this crap.

It has NEVER been about the kids, not at an elementary school in Connecticut, not in a suburb of Damascus.


I told one mouth breather today (who sounded like General Patton) that the Armed Forces are still taking applicants if he felt so strongly that the United States needed to commit ground forces to "do something" in Syria.

At which point they proceed to tell you that they tried but didn't have good enough eyesight or bum feet or that the recruiter couldn't guarantee a slot with SFOD-D.


At least our administration is reacting the right way :p

-One U.S. official who has been briefed on the options on Syria said he believed the White House would seek a level of intensity "just muscular enough not to get mocked" but not so devastating that it would prompt a response from Syrian allies Iran and Russia.-

Seriously?

From this link: http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77184921/

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

The MOST infuriating statement. Either it is worth going all out for, or don't do it. You don't walk up the a-hole in the biker bar and pop him just hard enough to let him know you don't like him but not hard enough to get the rest of his gang to kick your butt. American military men and women are going to be put in harms way for no other reason than for the PTOUS to look "strong." Seriously? Talk about a cynical game of the Emperor's Clothes. And of course civiallians will get hit, just like they always do. How's this for logic - "to punish Assad for killing his own civilians, we have decided to launch 20 cruise missiles at his strategic targets. Unfortunately, we killed a few more of his civilians while he remained untouched"? :confused: God I pray none of our folks get hurt.

[RoyGBiv]

I pray none of our folks get hurt.Amen

[fixer]

God I pray none of our folks get hurt.

Amen.

[Dagga Boy]

Best Tweet on the topic so far: "When al Qaeda is fighting Hezbollah, I'm on Team Popcorn."


Perfect-The only place I have been interested in seeing us go in and decimate for the children is the Sudan, where at least the folks in the South who are being slaughtered by the millions by the worst of the Islamists in the north. The north Sudan is backed by the Chinese in the slaughter, while we feed the refugees. I see zero interest for us in Syria. They are surrounded by fellow Muslim nations who can go do whatever it is that needs to be done. Essentially, this is an Arab League problem. Otherwise, we are going to bat for a bunch of people who hate us on both sides.

I have a deep belief that many of Sadam's chemical weapons ended up in Syria, now they are getting used. Nobody cared when it was the Kurds...who again, actually liked us.

I was disgusted watching McCain on TV last night pitching this. I think its because I have never heard any of this about the south Sudan.

[UgoDadeo]

Obama's Bluff (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/obamas-bluff) is republished with permission of Stratfor.

Geopolitical Weekly
Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 04:00 


Stratfor


By George Friedman

Images of multiple dead bodies emerged from Syria last week. It was asserted that poison gas killed the victims, who according to some numbered in the hundreds. Others claimed the photos were faked while others said the rebels were at fault. The dominant view, however, maintains that the al Assad regime carried out the attack.

The United States has so far avoided involvement in Syria's civil war. This is not to say Washington has any love for the al Assad regime. Damascus' close ties to Iran and Russia give the United States reason to be hostile toward Syria, and Washington participated in the campaign to force Syrian troops out of Lebanon. Still, the United States has learned to be concerned not just with unfriendly regimes, but also with what could follow such regimes. Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya have driven home the principle that deposing one regime means living with an imperfect successor. In those cases, changing the regime wound up rapidly entangling the United States in civil wars, the outcomes of which have not been worth the price. In the case of Syria, the insurgents are Sunni Muslims whose best-organized factions have ties to al Qaeda.

Still, as frequently happens, many in the United States and Europe are appalled at the horrors of the civil war, some of whom have called on the United States to do something. The United States has been reluctant to heed these calls. As mentioned, Washington does not have a direct interest in the outcome, since all possible outcomes are bad from its perspective. Moreover, the people who are most emphatic that something be done to stop the killings will be the first to condemn the United States when its starts killing people to stop the killings. People would die in any such intervention, since there are simply no clean ways to end a civil war.

Obama's Red Lines

U.S. President Barack Obama therefore adopted an extremely cautious strategy. He said that the United States would not get directly involved in Syria unless the al Assad regime used chemical weapons, stating with a high degree of confidence that he would not have to intervene. After all, Syrian President Bashar al Assad has now survived two years of civil war, and he is far from defeated. The one thing that could defeat him is foreign intervention, particularly by the United States. It was therefore assumed he wouldn't do the one thing Obama said would trigger U.S. action.

Al Assad is a ruthless man: He would not hesitate to use chemical weapons if he had to. He is also a very rational man: He would use chemical weapons only if that were his sole option. At the moment, it is difficult to see what desperate situation would have caused him to use chemical weapons and risk the worst. His opponents are equally ruthless, and we can imagine them using chemical weapons to force the United States to intervene and depose al Assad. But their ability to access chemical weapons is unclear, and if found out, the maneuver could cost them all Western support. It is possible that lower-ranking officers in al Assad's military used chemical weapons without his knowledge and perhaps against his wishes. It is possible that the casualties were far less than claimed. And it is possible that some of the pictures were faked.

All of these things are possible, but we simply don't know which is true. More important is that major governments, including the British and French, are claiming knowledge that al Assad carried out the attack. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry made a speech Aug. 26 clearly building the case for a military response, and referring to the regime attack as "undeniable" and the U.S. assessment so far as "grounded in facts." Al Assad meanwhile has agreed to allow U.N. inspectors to examine the evidence onsite. In the end, those who oppose al Assad will claim his supporters concealed his guilt, and the insurgents will say the same thing if they are blamed or if the inspectors determine there is no conclusive evidence of attacks.

The truth here has been politicized, and whoever claims to have found the truth, whatever it actually is, will be charged with lying. Nevertheless, the dominant emerging story is that al Assad carried out the attack, killing hundreds of men, women and children and crossing the red line Obama set with impunity. The U.S. president is backed into a corner.

The United States has chosen to take the matter to the United Nations. Obama will make an effort to show he is acting with U.N. support. But he knows he won't get U.N. support. The Russians, allies of al Assad and opponents of U.N.-based military interventions, will veto any proposed intervention. The Chinese -- who are not close to al Assad, but also oppose the U.N.-sanctioned interventions -- will probably join them. Regardless of whether the charges against al Assad are true, the Russians will dispute them and veto any action. Going to the United Nations therefore only buys time. Interestingly, the United States declared on Sunday that it is too late for Syria to authorize inspections. Dismissing that possibility makes the United States look tough, and actually creates a situation where it has to be tough.

Consequences in Syria and Beyond

This is no longer simply about Syria. The United States has stated a condition that commits it to an intervention. If it does not act when there is a clear violation of the condition, Obama increases the chance of war with other countries like North Korea and Iran. One of the tools the United States can use to shape the behavior of countries like these without going to war is stating conditions that will cause intervention, allowing the other side to avoid crossing the line. If these countries come to believe that the United States is actually bluffing, then the possibility of miscalculation soars. Washington could issue a red line whose violation it could not tolerate, like a North Korean nuclear-armed missile, but the other side could decide this was just another Syria and cross that line. Washington would have to attack, an attack that might not have been necessary had it not had its Syria bluff called.

There are also the Russian and Iranian questions. Both have invested a great deal in supporting al Assad. They might both retaliate were someone to attack the Syrian regime. There are already rumors in Beirut that Iran has told Hezbollah to begin taking Americans hostage if the United States attacks Syria. Russia meanwhile has shown in the Snowden affair what Obama clearly regards as a hostile intent. If he strikes, he thus must prepare for Russian counters. If he doesn't strike, he must assume the Russians and Iranians will read this as weakness.

Syria was not an issue that affected the U.S. national interest until Obama declared a red line. It escalated in importance at that point not because Syria is critical to the United States, but because the credibility of its stated limits are of vital importance. Obama's problem is that the majority of the American people oppose military intervention, Congress is not fully behind an intervention and those now rooting the United States on are not bearing the bulk of the military burden -- nor will they bear the criticism that will follow the inevitable civilian casualties, accidents and misdeeds that are part of war regardless of the purity of the intent.

The question therefore becomes what the United States and the new coalition of the willing will do if the red line has been crossed. The fantasy is that a series of airstrikes, destroying only chemical weapons, will be so perfectly executed that no one will be killed except those who deserve to die. But it is hard to distinguish a man's soul from 10,000 feet. There will be deaths, and the United States will be blamed for them.

The military dimension is hard to define because the mission is unclear. Logically, the goal should be the destruction of the chemical weapons and their deployment systems. This is reasonable, but the problem is determining the locations where all of the chemicals are stored. I would assume that most are underground, which poses a huge intelligence problem. If we assume that perfect intelligence is available and that decision-makers trust this intelligence, hitting buried targets is quite difficult. There is talk of a clean cruise missile strike. But it is not clear whether these carry enough explosives to penetrate even minimally hardened targets. Aircraft carry more substantial munitions, and it is possible for strategic bombers to stand off and strike the targets.

Even so, battle damage assessments are hard. How do you know that you have destroyed the chemicals -- that they were actually there and you destroyed the facility containing them? Moreover, there are lots of facilities and many will be close to civilian targets and many munitions will go astray. The attacks could prove deadlier than the chemicals did. And finally, attacking means al Assad loses all incentive to hold back on using chemical weapons. If he is paying the price of using them, he may as well use them. The gloves will come off on both sides as al Assad seeks to use his chemical weapons before they are destroyed.

A war on chemical weapons has a built-in insanity to it. The problem is not chemical weapons, which probably can't be eradicated from the air. The problem under the definition of this war would be the existence of a regime that uses chemical weapons. It is hard to imagine how an attack on chemical weapons can avoid an attack on the regime -- and regimes are not destroyed from the air. Doing so requires troops. Moreover, regimes that are destroyed must be replaced, and one cannot assume that the regime that succeeds al Assad will be grateful to those who deposed him. One must only recall the Shia in Iraq who celebrated Saddam's fall and then armed to fight the Americans.

Arming the insurgents would keep an air campaign off the table, and so appears to be lower risk. The problem is that Obama has already said he would arm the rebels, so announcing this as his response would still allow al Assad to avoid the consequences of crossing the red line. Arming the rebels also increases the chances of empowering the jihadists in Syria.

When Obama proclaimed his red line on Syria and chemical weapons, he assumed the issue would not come up. He made a gesture to those in his administration who believe that the United States has a moral obligation to put an end to brutality. He also made a gesture to those who don't want to go to war again. It was one of those smart moves that can blow up in a president's face when it turns out his assumption was wrong. Whether al Assad did launch the attacks, whether the insurgents did, or whether someone faked them doesn't matter. Unless Obama can get overwhelming, indisputable proof that al Assad did not -- and that isn't going to happen -- Obama will either have to act on the red line principle or be shown to be one who bluffs. The incredible complexity of intervening in a civil war without becoming bogged down makes the process even more baffling.

Obama now faces the second time in his presidency when war was an option. The first was Libya. The tyrant is now dead, and what followed is not pretty. And Libya was easy compared to Syria. Now, the president must intervene to maintain his credibility. But there is no political support in the United States for intervention. He must take military action, but not one that would cause the United States to appear brutish. He must depose al Assad, but not replace him with his opponents. He never thought al Assad would be so reckless. Despite whether al Assad actually was, the consensus is that he was. That's the hand the president has to play, so it's hard to see how he avoids military action and retains credibility. It is also hard to see how he takes military action without a political revolt against him if it goes wrong, which it usually does.



Obama's Bluff (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/obamas-bluff) is republished with permission of Stratfor.

[Shellback]

An interesting 4 page article that sheds some light on our involvement. Pg. 4 shows the actual documents. CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran. (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he _gassed_iran) From pg. 1

U.S. officials have long denied acquiescing to Iraqi chemical attacks, insisting that Hussein's government never announced he was going to use the weapons. But retired Air Force Col. Rick Francona, who was a military attaché in Baghdad during the 1988 strikes, paints a different picture.

"The Iraqis never told us that they intended to use nerve gas. They didn't have to. We already knew," he told Foreign Policy.

According to recently declassified CIA documents and interviews with former intelligence officials like Francona, the U.S. had firm evidence of Iraqi chemical attacks beginning in 1983. At the time, Iran was publicly alleging that illegal chemical attacks were carried out on its forces, and was building a case to present to the United Nations. But it lacked the evidence implicating Iraq, much of which was contained in top secret reports and memoranda sent to the most senior intelligence officials in the U.S. government. The CIA declined to comment for this story.....

It has been previously reported that the United States provided tactical intelligence to Iraq at the same time that officials suspected Hussein would use chemical weapons. But the CIA documents, which sat almost entirely unnoticed in a trove of declassified material at the National Archives in College Park, Md., combined with exclusive interviews with former intelligence officials, reveal new details about the depth of the United States' knowledge of how and when Iraq employed the deadly agents. They show that senior U.S. officials were being regularly informed about the scale of the nerve gas attacks. They are tantamount to an official American admission of complicity in some of the most gruesome chemical weapons attacks ever launched.

[Shellback]

Rand Paul releases statement on Syria.


"The United States should condemn the use of chemical weapons. We should ascertain who used the weapons and we should have an open debate in Congress over whether the situation warrants U.S. involvement. The Constitution grants the power to declare war to Congress not the President.

"The war in Syria has no clear national security connection to the United States and victory by either side will not necessarily bring in to power people friendly to the United States," Sen. Paul said.

Article on Cruz & Rand (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/28/ted-cruz-and-rand-paul-may-be-the-future-of-gop-foreign-policy) concerning Syria and their foreign policy ideas.

"The United States armed forces doesn't exist to be a policeman of the world," Cruz told Fox News Monday, "I certainly hope the reaction isn't simply lobbing some cruise missiles in to disagree with Assad's murderous actions."...

"The President's unilateral decision to arm Syrian rebels is incredibly disturbing, considering what little we know about whom we are arming," Paul said in a statement about the issue. "Engaging in yet another conflict in the Middle East with no vote or Congressional oversight compounds the severity of this situation."
Paul & Cruz in 2016 :cool:

[ffhounddog]

Moving foward with this is a big headache for many people. We had the riots in Iran that we did nothing for and then we the details came out about it was worse than anyone could immaginion we still did nothing. Now we have chem weapons maybe being used and we give a stern warning that we will attack after we tell the UN. Now if we still had forces in Iraq and we did not piss off the Iraqi's we would have a force to strike if need be. While we were there lots of these issues were kept in check. Turkey is going extream form of islam or the push for it was not a good sign. We now must support the military leadership in Egypt or there will be a second front against Isreal if we go in in the Brotherhood comes back.. Syria and the former Egyptian Government were talking before the Coup. Syria from Jordan? They like us but how much? This current adminstration has alieganated many of our allies in the region. Now the Pacific that is another story.

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't have a problem with Iraq of that era gassing human wave attacks from the Iranians.

Frankly, the whole idea that you can kill people nicely is a real issue for me. If the Iraq forces has machine gunned all of those guys as they attacked instead of gassing them would that be better?

War is war, and when you have a fratricidal gang fight between two despots why should we do anything to get involved, or even care? Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just my enemy's enemy.

Stuff like what is going on in the Sudan? What happened to the Kurds? Yeah, I have a problem with that.

[tremiles]

I read somewhere and my tinfoil hat agrees that this whole thing goes back to Syria not permitting a natural gas pipeline from Qatar because it devalues Russia's natural gas. Qatar's partner Saudi Arabia destabilizes Syria with their AQ payrolled operatives under the guise of "we're being repressed". Someone gasses (or stages gassing) Syrian civ's to get the West involved.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Tamara]

The neighborhood Democrats are all out scraping off their "War Is Not The Answer" bumper stickers...

[Kyle Reese]

The neighborhood Democrats are all out scraping off their "War Is Not The Answer" bumper stickers...

War is never the answer...

* Unless a (D) is in office...........

[Dagga Boy]

It is sadly ironic that there is outrage that they are gassing women and children in the Muslim world. Now stoning them to death.......totally okay:mad:.

[BLR]

I don't have a problem with Iraq of that era gassing human wave attacks from the Iranians.

Frankly, the whole idea that you can kill people nicely is a real issue for me. If the Iraq forces has machine gunned all of those guys as they attacked instead of gassing them would that be better?

War is war, and when you have a fratricidal gang fight between two despots why should we do anything to get involved, or even care? Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just my enemy's enemy.

Stuff like what is going on in the Sudan? What happened to the Kurds? Yeah, I have a problem with that.



Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons are truly horrific in their aftermath and consequences. Well beyond the effects of "conventional" weapons. Yes, machine gunning them would have been better in my opinion. Stoning too.

[Suvorov]

I read somewhere and my tinfoil hat agrees that this whole thing goes back to Syria not permitting a natural gas pipeline from Qatar because it devalues Russia's natural gas. Qatar's partner Saudi Arabia destabilizes Syria with their AQ payrolled operatives under the guise of "we're being repressed". Someone gasses (or stages gassing) Syrian civ's to get the West involved.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

That actually makes some tinfoil hat sense, at least in the sense of why the West would want to get Assad out of power and why Russia is so desirous of him staying in power. Now as far as who did the sliming, apparently Israeli Intel has stated it was Assad's forces. Don't really see Israel as having a dog in the fight as their is no good choice for them.

[tremiles]

That actually makes some tinfoil hat sense, at least in the sense of why the West would want to get Assad out of power and why Russia is so desirous of him staying in power. Now as far as who did the sliming, apparently Israeli Intel has stated it was Assad's forces. Don't really see Israel as having a dog in the fight as their is no good choice for them.

Yet Israel is allied with Turkey where the proposed pipeline would terminate. The rabbit hole is super deep with this particular tin foil hat conspiracy.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Tamara]

Yet Israel is allied with Turkey...

Not so much. Not like they used to be. (And "allied" was a strong word to use even during the best years of their relationship.)

[tremiles]

Since the Gaza flotilla sinking debacle in 2010, relations have been strained, but there's still billions in trade between the two. They are economic allies despite the politics.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Chuck Haggard]

Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons are truly horrific in their aftermath and consequences. Well beyond the effects of "conventional" weapons. Yes, machine gunning them would have been better in my opinion. Stoning too.

When we are talking nerve agents I have to disagree, and there is very little if any aftermath from many of those such as Sarin.

[Chuck Haggard]

War is never the answer...

* Unless a (D) is in office...........

I often tell hippies, when I hear "war never solves anything" that war solved Hitler rather well, just as one example.

[Kyle Reese]

I often tell hippies, when I hear "war never solves anything" that war solved Hitler rather well, just as one example.

HA! :cool:

I used to challenge them on their misguided beliefs, but many of them just look at you with the deer in the headlights stare.

[MGW]

Perfect-The only place I have been interested in seeing us go in and decimate for the children is the Sudan, where at least the folks in the South who are being slaughtered by the millions by the worst of the Islamists in the north. The north Sudan is backed by the Chinese in the slaughter, while we feed the refugees. I see zero interest for us in Syria. They are surrounded by fellow Muslim nations who can go do whatever it is that needs to be done. Essentially, this is an Arab League problem. Otherwise, we are going to bat for a bunch of people who hate us on both sides.

I have a deep belief that many of Sadam's chemical weapons ended up in Syria, now they are getting used. Nobody cared when it was the Kurds...who again, actually liked us.

I was disgusted watching McCain on TV last night pitching this. I think its because I have never heard any of this about the south Sudan.

Great points and well said.

And I just thought of the perfect way out of this for the US. "Prove" that the rebels are responsible for the gas attack and do nothing. Or "prove" that it was an elaborate hoax to try and get us involved and again, do nothing.

[Tamara]

I often tell hippies, when I hear "war never solves anything" that war solved Hitler rather well, just as one example.

I know you know the quote, but some don't:

"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that "violence never solves anything" I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." -R.A.H.

[Chuck Haggard]

I know you know the quote, but some don't:

I have read that before, thanks for the reminder.

[BLR]

When we are talking nerve agents I have to disagree, and there is very little if any aftermath from many of those such as Sarin.

Chem-Bio warfare is pretty far up my list of nastiest ways to die.

[NEPAKevin]

Chem-Bio warfare is pretty far up my list of nastiest ways to die.

Uh-huh. I recall when I first read about hemorrhagic fever being particularly displeased with the thought of slowly and painfully waiting for some major system to fail as one's organs rot out through which ever orifice is most convenient. Almost makes being vaporized by a massive energy wave seem civilized.

[Shellback]

A friend just sent this to me. (http://www.examiner.com/article/breaking-news-rebels-admit-gas-attack-result-of-mishandling-chemical-weapons)

In a report that is sure to be considered blockbuster news, the rebels told Dale Gavlak, a reporter who has written for the Associated Press, NPR and BBC, they are responsible for the chemical attack last week.

Gavlak is a Middle Eastern journalist who filed the report about the rebels claiming responsibility on the Mint Press News website, which is affiliated with AP.

In that report allegedly the rebels told him the chemical attack was a result of mishandling chemical weapons.

[Tamara]

If that is true, then it's a good thing we have President Hamlet (http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/08/the-syria-decision-president-obamlet/) waffling so long over pulling the trigger again.

Personally, I have yet to have it explained to me why, to put it in geek terms, it is somehow in the Federation's interests to intervene in the Romulo-Klingon War. We've toppled our quota of crazy nerve-gassing Middle Eastern dictators for this century. If the Frogs are so antsy about Assad, let them go show him some choc et effroi; they've probably still got old Michelin maps of Vichy Syria in the national glovebox, anyway.

[Chuck Haggard]

Chem-Bio warfare is pretty far up my list of nastiest ways to die.

Can be, or not, with nerve agent you twitch, quit breathing and pass out.

Is that worse than getting shot in the thigh and watching yourself bleed to death? Or getting burned alive inside of a tank hit by a HEAT round? Legs blown off by a mortar round and flipping through the air?

[Chuck Haggard]

In that report allegedly the rebels told him the chemical attack was a result of mishandling chemical weapons

What did I say? That part about how for all we know this stuff fell off of a truck.....

[Shellback]

46 seconds of truth on the matter.


http://youtu.be/30GXvCYtSSI

[fixer]

another report on the alleged rebel "woopsie"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-30/dont-show-obama-report-about-who-really-behind-syrian-chemical-attacks

[RoyGBiv]

Obama will seek support from Congress (http://www.c-span.org/Events/President-Obama-Delivers-Statement-on-Syria/10737441199-1/)

New levels of ineptitude daily. We have emboldened our enemies across the globe. WW the Ayatollahs Do?

You know it's cocktails by the pool time in Moscow. Putin must be having a grand laugh. :mad:

[Kyle Reese]

Obama will seek support from Congress (http://www.c-span.org/Events/President-Obama-Delivers-Statement-on-Syria/10737441199-1/)

New levels of ineptitude daily. We have emboldened our enemies across the globe. WW the Ayatollahs Do?

You know it's cocktails by the pool time in Moscow. Putin must be having a grand laugh. :mad:

Elections have consequences.

[Suvorov]

Personally, I have yet to have it explained to me why, to put it in geek terms, it is somehow in the Federation's interests to intervene in the Romulo-Klingon War. We've toppled our quota of crazy nerve-gassing Middle Eastern dictators for this century. If the Frogs are so antsy about Assad, let them go show him some choc et effroi; they've probably still got old Michelin maps of Vichy Syria in the national glovebox, anyway.

This right here is one of my personal questions and even peeves. Why can't the international/European's act on their own accord here? If the French and Brits want to spank Assad so badly, what is preventing them from launching their Typhoons and Rafaels and doing the work themselves? If the gas pipe line theory is correct, then it is in their best interest and has almost no affect on us in the US who don't really need anyone's natural gas. The Europeans are always quick to complain about America pushing everyone else around and acting like the cop of the world, but the moment a crisis unfolds, who do they turn to to lead the effort?

[RoyGBiv]

Elections have consequences.

Sadder still, if he came out today and blamed it on Bush, I bet we'd see >40% sign on to that opinion.

What really galls me is the continuing spiral-down of US credibility.

So now Obama will go to Congress, get turned down, and Iran, Putin and the DPRK will be further emboldened. Obama, after ignoring and breaching the Constitution for nearly 5 years, will now use the Constitution for political cover.

I am disgusted beyond words.

[Tamara]

Obama will seek support from Congress (http://www.c-span.org/Events/President-Obama-Delivers-Statement-on-Syria/10737441199-1/)

New levels of ineptitude daily. We have emboldened our enemies across the globe.

What, by acting constitutionally?

Hey, if you want to go stop Assad, knock yourself out. I'm not sold on it being in our national interest. (FWIW, I wasn't sold in '03, either, and I hate to say "I told you so," but...)

[TGS]

Can be, or not, with nerve agent you twitch, quit breathing and pass out.

I think that's an oversimplification of the process, which causes you to "quit breathing" by seizing your muscles to the point you can break your own back.

There's a great video of a rabbit out there....

[BLR]

Can be, or not, with nerve agent you twitch, quit breathing and pass out.

Is that worse than getting shot in the thigh and watching yourself bleed to death? Or getting burned alive inside of a tank hit by a HEAT round? Legs blown off by a mortar round and flipping through the air?

If you get a lethal dose of a "kind" one, then you are correct.

A less than immediately lethal dose, and so many painful things happen over an extended period that, yeah, put me in the tank.

There's a reason chem-bio-radio warfare is outlawed and mortars and mines are not.

ETA: don't judge nerve agents by sarin. That's the Browning Hammerless of that family of chemicals. The P30s and Glocks are easy to make and much more effective.

[TCinVA]

What, by acting constitutionally?

Hey, if you want to go stop Assad, knock yourself out. I'm not sold on it being in our national interest. (FWIW, I wasn't sold in '03, either, and I hate to say "I told you so," but...)

Seeking Congressional approval for the use of force is constitutional.

Announcing that you're going to seek congressional approval after having previously indicated you won't be seeking congressional approval and having announced that you're going to conduct a completely irrelevant campaign that won't accomplish anything more than maybe make somebody with a mongoloid IQ think you are backing up some ridiculous rhetoric you spewed a couple of years ago...well, that's not really acting constitutionally.

That's just being a damn fool on the world stage and hoping to generate political cover so that if something horrible happens you aren't the only one left cradling a tar baby.

Mr. Obama should seek congressional approval...but that should have been announced from the getgo after at least an attempt at serious preparation. This is nothing more than the usual pinball-in-a-machine style of boobery his administration has raised to a high artform.

[Chuck Haggard]

I get the effects of chemicals, I used to be my unit's NBC NCO back in the day.


IMHO when half of the country is being bombed, shelled, shot up, heads are being cut off, main gun rounds are being used on individual snipers, etc., getting all worked up over a chemical attack is stupid.

[BLR]

I get the effects of chemicals, I used to be my unit's NBC NCO back in the day.


IMHO when half of the country is being bombed, shelled, shot up, heads are being cut off, main gun rounds are being used on individual snipers, etc., getting all worked up over a chemical attack is stupid.

No argument from me. So long as it says inside their borders....

[Drang]

Sadder still, if he came out today and blamed it on Bush, I bet we'd see >40% sign on to that opinion.
Well, yeah! I mean, what with Saddam smuggling all (well, most) of his CB munitions to Syria...

[RoyGBiv]

Seeking Congressional approval for the use of force is constitutional.

Announcing that you're going to seek congressional approval after having previously indicated you won't be seeking congressional approval and having announced that you're going to conduct a completely irrelevant campaign that won't accomplish anything more than maybe make somebody with a mongoloid IQ think you are backing up some ridiculous rhetoric you spewed a couple of years ago...well, that's not really acting constitutionally.

That's just being a damn fool on the world stage and hoping to generate political cover so that if something horrible happens you aren't the only one left cradling a tar baby.

Mr. Obama should seek congressional approval...but that should have been announced from the getgo after at least an attempt at serious preparation. This is nothing more than the usual pinball-in-a-machine style of boobery his administration has raised to a high artform.
Thanks. I wasn't looking forward to typing that on my tablet.

[Tamara]

Seeking Congressional approval for the use of force is constitutional.

Announcing that you're going to seek congressional approval after having previously indicated you won't be seeking congressional approval...

When you find some stranger up in your crib and throw down on him and he runs out the door, do you agonize over why? Or are you just happy he ran out the door? I mean, he could have suddenly decided to mend his evil ways! Or maybe he just got scared at being caught red-handed and fled.

Similarly, I don't care why a politician suddenly decides to do the right thing. I doubt it was because he had a sudden attack of conscience and a renewed grasp of the nuances of our separation of powers; rather, it was probably because he can read an opinion poll. Regardless, he up and decided to do the right thing and that makes me happy.

[TGS]

When you find some stranger up in your crib and throw down on him and he runs out the door, do you agonize over why? Or are you just happy he ran out the door? I mean, he could have suddenly decided to mend his evil ways! Or maybe he just got scared at being caught red-handed and fled.

Similarly, I don't care why a politician suddenly decides to do the right thing. I doubt it was because he had a sudden attack of conscience and a renewed grasp of the nuances of our separation of powers; rather, it was probably because he can read an opinion poll. Regardless, he up and decided to do the right thing and that makes me happy.

I too am delighted to see Obama allow this to go to a Congressional vote. The fact that the POTUS has the option to choose whether a war vote goes to Congress angers me, but regardless of his motivations the POTUS has decided to pursue the use of force through the means our Constitution intended.

I cannot fault him for that, no matter what his motivations. In all, I figure it's because he realizes that any choice in this situation is a bad choice....so he might as well put the S in BAMCIS: Shift the blame.

[TCinVA]

I don't see it as doing the right thing, personally. And Mr. Obama's administration has been making noises that they can do whateva they want if Congress doesn't approve. As everyone here well knows, Obama isn't really enamored with the constitutional separation of powers and has been pretty much thumbing his nose at them for quite some time. To the point where I think he's had more 9-0 Supreme Court decisions telling his administration to back off than anyone since FDR.

This is a politician scrambling for cover. He's pulling out the constitution as a last resort to cover his own ass, apparently having decided only Friday that he should seek a vote. That's not really doing the right thing...that's deciding not to beat this particular old lady to death with your tire iron because there's a SWAT team across the street eating lunch.

Sure, if there was a dude breaking into my house and he decided against carrying through with it because he thought I was The Dark Lord Satan and would consume his very soul, I wouldn't care much about the motive...just the action.

For a president proposing military action I have higher expectations.

The argument can reasonably be made that having higher expectations from criminals than one has from politicians is sane given the track record of both groups...but still.

[TGS]

This is a politician scrambling for cover. He's pulling out the constitution as a last resort to cover his own ass, apparently having decided only Friday that he should seek a vote.

And in doing so, regardless of his motivations, is following measures laid out by the Constitution. What would you rather him do....just continue ignoring the Constitution and him do as he please?

So i guess its damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

If he goes with the Constitution, he's bad.

If he goes against the Constitution, he's bad.

[JAD]

If he wraps himself in the tatters of the Constitution, he's bad.

If he goes against the Constitution, he's bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)

[NETim]

And in doing so, regardless of his motivations, is following measures laid out by the Constitution. What would you rather him do....just continue ignoring the Constitution and him do as he please?

So i guess its damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

If he goes with the Constitution, he's bad.

If he goes against the Constitution, he's bad.

And that's how it's done in the land of Popularity Contests.

Law is secondary to polling data and has been for quite some time.

[TCinVA]

What would you rather him do....just continue ignoring the Constitution and him do as he please?

I would expect the dude who swore an oath to uphold and defend the constitution to give the constitutionality of his proposed course of action some consideration well ahead of time...like before he takes an international spanking and has to slink off and suck his thumb.



So i guess its damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

If he goes with the Constitution, he's bad.

If he goes against the Constitution, he's bad.

Dude, no.

Again: Pulling out the constitution at the last second as it becomes brutally clear that nobody wants to go on this stupid little adventure is not something he deserves even a scintilla of credit for. It's the right outcome, but reached through a perverse process completely against his will.

I don't give people credit for something they were drug to kicking and screaming. Especially when the dude's surrogates are out there pushing the WH line that he really doesn't need congress to go starting another war.

[Tamara]

I don't see it as doing the right thing, personally. And Mr. Obama's administration has been making noises that they can do whateva they want if Congress doesn't approve.

Didn't we just get done with eight years of The Imperial Presidency who believed that "a president who cannot be restrained, through validly enacted statutes, from pursuing any tactic he believes to be effective in the war on terror... (http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/power-surge-constitutional-record-george-w-bush)"

It makes my Republican friends look more than a little hypocritical when they're Oh! All of a sudden! so concerned over expanded executive power.

You guys put the tools in the shed. Don't bitch when the new renter uses them


That's not really doing the right thing...that's deciding not to beat this particular old lady to death with your tire iron because there's a SWAT team across the street eating lunch.

So, to continue that analogy, you'd rather he stuck to his principles and whacked granny anyway?

[ffhounddog]

I really do not think he wants to do anything and is trying to get away with saying I was going to go help these poor people but the Republicans would not let me. He can spin either side and if Congress votes yes he can say Congress voted for it, it is their fault if something goes wrong or blame the SecDEF or SecState; to him they are expendable. Also we have Mid Term Elections. This is positive points either way for the President with his party and the independents because he can get points either way. Pretty smart on his part really because he has Republicans on edge with a spit in their party and only a few of his party not going to support him.

[TCinVA]

So, to continue that analogy, you'd rather he stuck to his principles and whacked granny anyway?

I'd rather the leader of the free world sort his ***CENSORED*** out like someone with a reasonable command of his responsibility instead of putting on this ridiculous display of feckless idiocy which will have consequences down the road.

Leaving whether or not it's sensible to go into Syria or not, if the decision is going to be made to do it then do it properly. Nothing about this thing has shown any evidence of a strategy or a plan. This buffoonery increases the chances that we're going to have a real problem to deal with down the road.

...and some of us have been complaining about unrestrained executive power for quite some time. The current occupant is taking it to entirely new levels of absurdity, though. Neither party is pure in this process anymore than either party is free of stupid policy ideas.

[fixer]

I'd rather the leader of the free world sort his ***CENSORED*** out like someone with a reasonable command of his responsibility instead of putting on this ridiculous display of feckless idiocy which will have consequences down the road.

Leaving whether or not it's sensible to go into Syria or not, if the decision is going to be made to do it then do it properly. Nothing about this thing has shown any evidence of a strategy or a plan. This buffoonery increases the chances that we're going to have a real problem to deal with down the road.

...and some of us have been complaining about unrestrained executive power for quite some time. The current occupant is taking it to entirely new levels of absurdity, though. Neither party is pure in this process anymore than either party is free of stupid policy ideas.

100% agree and I completely understand your assertions here.

[RoyGBiv]

Didn't we just get done with eight years of The Imperial Presidency who believed that "a president who cannot be restrained, through validly enacted statutes, from pursuing any tactic he believes to be effective in the war on terror... (http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/power-surge-constitutional-record-george-w-bush)"

It makes my Republican friends look more than a little hypocritical when they're Oh! All of a sudden! so concerned over expanded executive power.

You guys put the tools in the shed. Don't bitch when the new renter uses them

{quote snipped}

So, to continue that analogy, you'd rather he stuck to his principles and whacked granny anyway?


I'd rather the leader of the free world sort his ***CENSORED*** out like someone with a reasonable command of his responsibility instead of putting on this ridiculous display of feckless idiocy which will have consequences down the road.

Leaving whether or not it's sensible to go into Syria or not, if the decision is going to be made to do it then do it properly. Nothing about this thing has shown any evidence of a strategy or a plan. This buffoonery increases the chances that we're going to have a real problem to deal with down the road.

...and some of us have been complaining about unrestrained executive power for quite some time. The current occupant is taking it to entirely new levels of absurdity, though. Neither party is pure in this process anymore than either party is free of stupid policy ideas.
Apples & Oranges.

1. I'd guess we're all in agreement that following the Constitution is better than not and that previous administrations were guilty of their own abuses. [Apples]
2. Less certain is whether we'd agree that the unconstitutional actions of the current administration outpace any predecessor by a wide margin, are more flagrant and undertaken without a shred of shame or remorse, or whether, in this specific example, we should give any kudos for following the Constitution when it's so very clearly only being used for political cover and even then under the declaration that "we don't need Congressional approval, but we're going to let Congress take the blame for a mess we created because it will let us conveniently shift blame". [Oranges]

I've reached the point of numbness to new Constitutional fouls. They have been myriad, flagrant and largely shrugged off by the masses. My focus is on the damage this administrations actions are having on the global stage. All of these errors will certainly cost us dearly down the road. Not far down the road, I fear.

[Tamara]

... that the unconstitutional actions of the current administration outpace any predecessor by a wide margin...

Really? Really?

Obama is in the running for the most piss-poor president of my lifetime (and he's running against a pretty strong field there) but "outpace any predecessor"? That shows a shockingly poor grasp of history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_during_the_Lyndon_B._Johnson_Ad ministration).

Dude, that is Obama Derangement Syndrome. That is nothing but a Michael Moore rant on Dubya turned inside out.

[Joe in PNG]

Really? Really?

Obama is in the running for the most piss-poor president of my lifetime (and he's running against a pretty strong field there) but "outpace any predecessor"? That shows a shockingly poor grasp of history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_during_the_Lyndon_B._Johnson_Ad ministration).

Dude, that is Obama Derangement Syndrome. That is nothing but a Michael Moore rant on Dubya turned inside out.

See also: Roosevelt, Franklin D.

[Tamara]

See also: Roosevelt, Franklin D.

Frankie is so far head and shoulders above the rest in the "unconstitutional" department that there can't even be a debate. We're talking about the guy who out and out threatened to pack the court with as many justices as it took to get the rulings he wanted. That took hubris to new heights.

Oh, and how about Mussolini's role model, Wilson? (Yup, true fact. You can look it up.)

Obama still has a chance to be the president when the wreckers finally win and the wheels come off, but the closer doesn't get the "W" when he comes in with a ten run lead.

[TGS]

Frankie is so far head and shoulders above the rest in the "unconstitutional" department that there can't even be a debate. We're talking about the guy who out and out threatened to pack the court with as many justices as it took to get the rulings he wanted. That took hubris to new heights.

Oh, you mean the guy that interned thousands of American citizens unconstitutionally?

FEMA prison camp conspiracy, eat your heart out!

[MGW]

I have no idea where Obama ranks in history compared to any other president. Asking for congressional approval gives him a simple way to not take responsibility for whatever happens next. "Congress said to bomb/not bomb Syria so that's what I did. What I think doesn't matter. the men and women you elected made a decision and I abided by it." It's the ultimate pass the buck in an attempt to save face. Everyone knows it.

I would rather he look at the camera and tell the truth. "Syria is a mess. We have no business getting involved. I drew a line in the sand and hoped that would stop an idiot from gassing his own people but it didn't work. We will provide medical supplies to the people caught in the middle of this. Other than that we will play Switerland until both sides are dead or someone wins this bloody mess. No one involved is worthy of shedding the blood of Americans."

Doesn't anyone else think its very ironic that France may be the loan country holding the we should bomb Syria bag when this is all over?

[BaiHu]

Like your style coach.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[fixer]

Really? Really?

Obama is in the running for the most piss-poor president of my lifetime (and he's running against a pretty strong field there) but "outpace any predecessor"? That shows a shockingly poor grasp of history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_during_the_Lyndon_B._Johnson_Ad ministration).

Dude, that is Obama Derangement Syndrome. That is nothing but a Michael Moore rant on Dubya turned inside out.

He probably meant recent predecessor.

[fixer]

Some interesting reading material about Syria situation courtesy of Zerohedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-02/fiction-fact-or-scandal-epic-proportions


I've hacked colonel Anthony Jamie MacDonald mail he is intelligence US Army Staff boss. First I hacked his Link3dIn account and got access to his mail through it then.



Among mail Mayhem like Amazon mails I've found his correspondence with his colleague Eugene Furst. He congratulates Col. with success and gives a link to the Washington Post publication about chemical attack in Syria on August 21. Furst also mentions it was “well staged”. Holy shit. I was shocked my eyes refused to believe it. Bloody bastards they “staged” a chemical attack.



Then a friend of Anthony MacDonald's wife Jennifer writes she was shocked seeing on TV the children died after chemical attack in Syria. Jennifer answers she saw the story but Tony calm her down saying children were alive and the scene was staged.

[Tamara]

Some interesting reading material about Syria situation courtesy of Zerohedge:

1) Zerohedge is about two clicks from Infowars a lot of the time, and...

2) This quote, right here? "Furst also mentions it was “well staged”. Holy shit. I was shocked my eyes refused to believe it. Bloody bastards they “staged” a chemical attack." This thimble-headed idiot needs to stop commenting on .mil affairs if he cannot speak .milese. Operation Wacht am Rhein was pretty well-staged (at least the opening moves were) and there is no doubt it was real and the Germans did it. Claiming "well staged" means "faked" in that context is like claiming "well regulated" means "legislated out of existence" in the Second Amendment.

[Tamara]

He probably meant recent predecessor.

Then he should have said so. (And I think Carter and Nixon are pretty recent...)

[Odin Bravo One]

Some interesting reading material about Syria situation courtesy of Zerohedge:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-02/fiction-fact-or-scandal-epic-proportions

In the modern world of instant messaging, Twitter, Skype, Facebook, and the like..... a conspiracy theory on massive scales is nearly impossible. In order for an event like that to be "staged" requires secrecy. A secret is only a secret when one person knows. This administration, especially, has no concept of OPSEC, routinely spilling information that puts people at risk, and has created an entire generation of military personnel to follow his lead. I'm almost at the point where I seriously have to question what we really have against the WikiLeaks kid.

And while the lack of OPSEC is concerning, it is the leaking, and/or publicly releasing classified info that is the pandemic. Not the discussion of classified information over unclassified networks. Colonel's, even those in the "Transparency" camp BHO has created, know better than to discuss troop movements over unclas networks.......let alone a covert information/deception operations. Seriously? Only the beyond ignorant could begin to swallow any of that.

As for the asking of Congress? I don't know. Don't much care. But it is curious how he didn't get the support from our former kingdom having brethren he thought he would, and how their PM acknowledged not only their disagreement with his proposal, but also conceded he would execute his decision based on their will. Would seem BHO is looking for an out, after too much kitten talking, even if he did kitten-talk like a pansy. Congress says "no", he gets to gain political momentum and point fingers at the R's, especially those who had been asking for military intervention from the beginning, as well as maintains his EP to be advised of new intel warranting his unilateral action as the POTUS for a strike. Congress says "yes", and he gets to say he has the backing of the American people/lawmakers, thus giving him an out when he kittens this up........

Unless he decides we should stay his course of burying his head in the sand, along with realizing it is not really our fight, regardless of mother government's approval or lack thereof.............it is going to be a kitten-show.

[Tamara]

Would seem BHO is looking for an out, after too much kitten talking...

That's the vibe I'm picking up. The guy who blusters "I'd kick your ass if my buddies weren't holding me back!" after carefully ensuring his buddies have grabbed his arms.

What I find interesting here is the other half of the symbiotic organism that is the Media-Executive branch of our government in this administration: McCain and the GOP hawks have been calling for regime change in Damascus for years now, and getting ignored by the WH. Meanwhile, the media would talk a little aggressive if something particularly photogenic happened over there, but were largely quiescent until the chemical weapon incident happened, when they suddenly got all "REMEMBER THE MAINE!" When he saw that 30 Rock had its warpaint on, only then did Barack start drawing lines and poking Assad in the chest and asking people to hold his coat and wind up for a punch...

...at which point the media started running promo pieces on "This week on Meet The Press: "What Will Be The Price War In Syria?" and "Is America Ready For Another War?" and all of a sudden, Pres. Urkel is all "HOLD ME BACK, BRO!"

[Odin Bravo One]

One of these days I will actually make the 75 minute drive to B.R., IN and maybe you can impart your wisdom, philosophical gems, and general observations (that are ironically, as well as literally hilarious) to my knuckle dragging @$$. That would also save me the trouble of having to look up the big words you use, since face to face, I can simply say "what does that word mean?".

:D

[Tamara]

tl;dr version: We could skip the political kabuki and Obama could just call Chris Matthews or David Gregory and ask "Look, do you want me to bomb this guy or not?" I truly believe this country is currently being governed from Midtown Manhattan.

[TCinVA]

tl;dr version: We could skip the political kabuki and Obama could just call Chris Matthews or David Gregory and ask "Look, do you want me to bomb this guy or not?" I truly believe this country is currently being governed from Midtown Manhattan.

Agreed...and that's ultimately what they've wanted all along.

[ToddG]

One of these days I will actually make the 75 minute drive to B.R., IN

So totally worth it. Plus I'd bet she'd barter a Tamism language lesson and some beer for a day of training.

[Odin Bravo One]

So totally worth it. Plus I'd bet she'd barter a Tamism language lesson and some beer for a day of training.

I don't do much free/barter training, but I would absolutely trade some gun school knowledge for Tamism Language 101, and beer.

Maybe sometime around February or March? Weather dependent of course.

[Tamara]

I don't do much free/barter training, but I would absolutely trade some gun school knowledge for Tamism Language 101, and beer.

Maybe sometime around February or March? Weather dependent of course.

February and March are always weather dependent in Indiana. I even tried to get them to cancel February last year on account of weather and just go straight to March, but they went through with it anyway.

(But, yeah, that would be awesome! :D )

[Shellback]

These sick SOB's (http://www.clarionproject.org/news/rebel-atrocities-syria-govt-workers-thrown-building) are the ones Obama wants to support. Syrian rebels, read Al Qaeda, throwing government workers off of rooftops to their death. Follow link for graphic video.

[Tamara]

These sick SOB's (http://www.clarionproject.org/news/rebel-atrocities-syria-govt-workers-thrown-building) are the ones Obama wants to support.

Obama wants to support whoever will get him more points in the polls and keep him popular with the Midtown Glitterati. This is a dude who has been doing whatever it took to fit in with The Right Crowd all his life.

[TCinVA]

These sick SOB's (http://www.clarionproject.org/news/rebel-atrocities-syria-govt-workers-thrown-building) are the ones Obama wants to support. Syrian rebels, read Al Qaeda, throwing government workers off of rooftops to their death. Follow link for graphic video.

I gather you didn't see the vid of one of the rebels cutting out a dude's liver and eating it.

The problem with the middle east is that our idea of good guys are few and far between. Just ask our guys in Afghanistan who had to play nice-nice with dudes growing poppy plants for money and raping children for fun.

[Shellback]

I gather you didn't see the vid of one of the rebels cutting out a dude's liver and eating it.

The problem with the middle east is that our idea of good guys are few and far between. Just ask our guys in Afghanistan who had to play nice-nice with dudes growing poppy plants for money and raping children for fun.

Nope, missed that one. I only had to spend about a year total in the M.E. and that was enough for me. Dudes growing poppy doesn't bother me but participants in "man love Thursday" should be ventilated.

[MGW]

Nope, missed that one. I only had to spend about a year total in the M.E. and that was enough for me. Dudes growing poppy doesn't bother me but participants in "man love Thursday" should be ventilated.

My buddies thought I was full of it when I told them the local "men" believed women were babies and men were for fun.

[fuse]

My buddies thought I was full of it when I told them the local "men" believed women were for babies and boys were for fun.

Fixed it for you brahma

[Suvorov]

Now Rush is beginning to openly question the narrative.

As hard as it is for me to believe and as much as I don't want to believe that our own government would do such a thing, this is the same administration that gave us Fast and Furious.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/09/03/bodansky_what_if_bashar_didn_t_do_it

[JHC]

Here's a new theory vs what the US MSM puts out anyway.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/143492/samuels-syria-vladimir-putin

[RoyGBiv]

Here's a new theory vs what the US MSM puts out anyway.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/143492/samuels-syria-vladimir-putin

Interesting read.

It's been an interesting few days of inner conflict.... While I'm enjoying the continued exposure of Obamas ineptitude, and don't even get me started about the hilarity that is Obama, Pelosi and Kerry advocating for military action in Syria, I'm certainly not enjoying the further decay of Americas reputation on the world stage.

[Suvorov]

I'm certainly not enjoying the further decay of Americas reputation on the world stage.

There is no winning for the US. This is what happens when our people decide a "community organizer" should be our leader in a world of former KGB agents, generals, thugs, and dictators. And then we go and put a woman who has no qualifications other than refusing to bake cookies in the White House to be our head statesperson who set the stage for all that is happening.

What really did we expect? :confused:

[Tamara]

Let me get this straight: Captain Neocon is throwing a snit (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/04/mccain-opposes-syria-strike-resolution/) because he's afraid Obama isn't going to bomb Syria hard enough?

*headdesk*

Well, whatever it takes to get a "No" vote, I suppose.

The actions of Kerry and McCain lately have made me wonder if we shouldn't have losing a presidential election result in being voted off the island...

[Suvorov]

So for my far more Constitutionally learned colleges here:

Do you think there is any provision or did the founders consider a difference between "limited military action" and war? :confused:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=517726101646662 Last minute or two.

[Tamara]

So for my far more Constitutionally learned colleges here:

Do you think there is any provision or did the founders consider a difference between "limited military action" and war? :confused:

The Founders were getting unconstitutional before the ink was dry. ;)

I'll note this: They didn't have cruise missiles in the 18th Century, but if you had sailed the USS Constitution up the Thames and lobbed a broadside into London, you would have had a hard time convincing the Limeys that it wasn't war, just a "Limited Military Action".

"Limited Military Action" is modernspeak for "Punitive raid on wogs who can't hit back."

[LHS]

The Founders were getting unconstitutional before the ink was dry. ;)

I'll note this: They didn't have cruise missiles in the 18th Century, but if you had sailed the USS Constitution up the Thames and lobbed a broadside into London, you would have had a hard time convincing the Limeys that it wasn't war, just a "Limited Military Action".

"Limited Military Action" is modernspeak for "Punitive raid on wogs who can't hit back."

The Skeptical Libertarian made a good point this morning: The last time someone shelled our soil without putting 'boots on the ground', we still considered it an act of war.

[tremiles]

As far as the media narrative, immediately following a piece about the difficulty in convincing post-Iraq war America that hitting Syria was the right thing to do, CNN ran another piece regarding a missing flag at Ground Zero to get the patriotic 'Murica juices flowing.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[Kyle Reese]

As far as the media narrative, immediately following a piece about the difficulty in convincing post-Iraq war America that hitting Syria was the right thing to do, CNN ran another piece regarding a missing flag at Ground Zero to get the patriotic 'Murica juices flowing.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

The only thing missing is the theme music playing from Patton.

[RoyGBiv]

There's no end to the entertainment, really.
Here's a video of Nancy Pelosi saying (my interpretation) "We need to attack Syria "for the Children"".

I kitten you not.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/09/03/pelosi_uses_conversation_with_5-year-old_grandson_to_push_for_attack_on_syria.html

[Kyle Reese]

There's no end to the entertainment, really.
Here's a video of Nancy Pelosi saying (my interpretation) "We need to attack Syria "for the Children"".

I kitten you not.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/09/03/pelosi_uses_conversation_with_5-year-old_grandson_to_push_for_attack_on_syria.html

Whatever happened to

1750

or

1751


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Shellback]

Passed 10 - 7 http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/04/senate-breaks-own-rules-in-rush-to-vote-on-syria-war.html

[Dagga Boy]

So what happens when we bomb the crap out of Syria, and they return the favor with defensive use of anti-ship missiles.......then what?

I am big on the "if you are going to do it, do it right", and if we can't "win" through shock and awe and total decimation because we can't let the rebels take over, then it is a simple lose. I am also curious on the if we are doing this for the children of Syria, what will be the reaction when the "other" children of Syrias' bodies killed during our missile strikes (and they will find some even if we didn't do it) are paraded in front of the camera's.

I am still of the same opinion as I was when we went into Iraq-If we are doing it for humanitarian reasons, let's start with the worst of the Islamists in the Sudan, and save a bunch of people being slaughtered who like us. Of course we can't do Sudan, because Russia and China are allied with the North who have killed hundreds of thousands of women and children (and that is after committing unspeakable atrocities). So we send rice to the South and the Chinese get oil from the North. Same thing in Syria, but in Syria the "victims" hate us as well.

[Kyle Reese]

So what happens when we bomb the crap out of Syria, and they return the favor with defensive use of anti-ship missiles.......then what?



Blame Bush and Republicans.

[Tamara]

So what happens when we bomb the crap out of Syria, and they return the favor with defensive use of anti-ship missiles.......then what?

Don't worry, the president is promising he won't put the missiles in too far.

I'm surprised that Kerry didn't let slip that they'd already picked the code name "Operation Just The Warhead." :rolleyes:

[LHS]

Don't worry, the president is promising he won't put the missiles in too far.

I'm surprised that Kerry didn't let slip that they'd already picked the code name "Operation Just The Warhead." :rolleyes:

Kerry will also ensure a timely pull out.

[BaiHu]

Don't worry, the president is promising he won't put the missiles in too far.

I'm surprised that Kerry didn't let slip that they'd already picked the code name "Operation Just The Warhead." :rolleyes:


Kerry will also ensure a timely pull out.

You two should Google John Stewart ripping Obama on his "Operation: Just the Tip". It was hilarious.

Stewart must be a closet Archer fan.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[RoyGBiv]

You two should Google John Stewart ripping Obama on his "Operation: Just the Tip". It was hilarious.

Stewart must be a closet Archer fan.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I think this is it... Currently unavailable...
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-3-2013/uncle-jonny-stew-s-good-time-syria-jamboree

Youtube....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErGmEi5_t6M

[ffhounddog]

Now that is Funny and so true.....

[TCinVA]

Not having looked at John Kerry for quite some time, I'm shocked by the amount of plastic surgery he's undergone.

[Odin Bravo One]

If we are doing it for humanitarian reasons, let's start with the worst of the Islamists in the Sudan, and save a bunch of people being slaughtered who like us. Of course we can't do Sudan, because Russia and China are allied with the North who have killed hundreds of thousands of women and children (and that is after committing unspeakable atrocities). So we send rice to the South and the Chinese get oil from the North. Same thing in Syria, but in Syria the "victims" hate us as well.

In addition to the political sensitivities, The Sudan is a logistical nightmare.

But let's get real. We are not doing it for "Humanitarian" reasons. I haven't the faintest idea why it is in so many people's heads that this seems/sounds like a good idea. Humanitarian? Why not Darfur? Because it's not about "humanitarian".

This has debacle written all over it. Having looked at the circumstances, and given the information I have seen............I do believe I would have to politely decline any involvement there.

[Kevin B.]

This has debacle written all over it. Having looked at the circumstances, and given the information I have seen............I do believe I would have to politely decline any involvement there.

Agree.

[LittleLebowski]

Every time McCain speaks nowadays, I feel like he and I are from different countries and cultures.

[Dagga Boy]

In addition to the political sensitivities, The Sudan is a logistical nightmare.

But let's get real. We are not doing it for "Humanitarian" reasons. I haven't the faintest idea why it is in so many people's heads that this seems/sounds like a good idea. Humanitarian? Why not Darfur? Because it's not about "humanitarian".

This has debacle written all over it. Having looked at the circumstances, and given the information I have seen............I do believe I would have to politely decline any involvement there.


This is my point.......If not when the Kurds were gassed, if not in Sudan, then why Syria, and why us? I would much rather help people who are Pro U.S. than places like Iraq and Syria where everybody hates us. Like I said, the big question is going to be is if one of our ships or assets gets retaliated against?

[BaiHu]

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/09/04/kerry-why-yes-some-arab-countries-have-offered-to-foot-the-entire-bill-if-we-go-do-the-whole-thing-in-syria/

I know you all heard this, but seriously??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAQKY_Y24FE

Beware of the man who pays you to go into a dark room.

[Suvorov]

They say that there will be no "boots" on the ground. Then they say that SEALS will be utilized to secure the Chemical weapons but will not be involved in "combat" operations. Do they really think, or expect the average American to believe, that the Syrians guarding the Chemical weapons will just hand them over to our SEALs once they show up? Also, given that the slime is probably a little bit inland, I would have to assume our SEALs will be wearing boots.....

[ToddG]

Do they really think, or expect the average American to believe, that the Syrians guarding the Chemical weapons will just hand them over to our SEALs once they show up?

If I was guarding chemical weapons and a team of SEALs showed up, I'd hand them over rickey-tickey. Maybe that's just me.

(/joke ... for those who were going to lecture me about the warrior mindset of Syrian chemical weapon guards or whatever)


Also, given that the slime is probably a little bit inland, I would have to assume our SEALs will be wearing boots.....

Doubtful.

Flip-flops.

That's how the administration gets away with saying "no boots on the ground."

[TCinVA]

They say that there will be no "boots" on the ground. Then they say that SEALS will be utilized to secure the Chemical weapons but will not be involved in "combat" operations. Do they really think, or expect the average American to believe, that the Syrians guarding the Chemical weapons will just hand them over to our SEALs once they show up? Also, given that the slime is probably a little bit inland, I would have to assume our SEALs will be wearing boots.....

I'm sure the Syrians will just roll out the red carpet. Especially the AQ affiliated rebels, seeing as how the SEALs shot their dear leader in the face.

Sending small units with limited support into a territory where both sides have a reason to want to kill them all? BRILLIANT!!!

[BaiHu]

Here are my questions for the pros here:

1. What does the US get out of this? If it's control over Syria and therefore Iraq, how does Obama square his 'peaceful' ending to Bush's wars?

2. Why has Europe, who benefits more directly with a pipeline, not fully backed intervention? If it's b/c of Russian oil pressure, then how will that change our relationship with Russia and inevitably the Chinese, etc?

3. Since Cpt Chaos and Kid Shotgun have done nothing but lambaste Bush's wars, how will they sell this to the nation, let alone the world when this inevitably puts us back in the quagmire of the ME? Is this going to be a magic faerie Unicorn dust attack with Teflon and Pam added for super slipperiness as not to leave a single atom behind?

BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!! :mad: :confused:

[Tamara]

Then they say that SEALS will be utilized to secure the Chemical weapons but will not be involved in "combat" operations.

They say what now?

"Sir, our poll numbers are in the toilet!"
"Quick! Call those... the Navy guys. The ones who shot Bin Laden?"
"SEALS, sir."
"Right! Call them!"
Serving as this administration's public relations deus ex machina has gotta be doing wonders for morale and retention... :rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

"Sir, our poll numbers are in the toilet!"
"Quick! Call those... the Navy guys. The ones who shot Bin Laden?"
"SEALS, sir."
"Right! Call them, then leak their home base and unit details, STAT!"


Modified going off of historical precedent.

[RoyGBiv]

3. Since Cpt Chaos and Kid Shotgun have done nothing but lambaste Bush's wars, how will they sell this to the nation, let alone the world when this inevitably puts us back in the quagmire of the ME? Is this going to be a magic faerie Unicorn dust attack with Teflon and Pam added for super slipperiness as not to leave a single atom behind?

BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!! :mad: :confused:
I wonder if there's a Call Option on these certificates?

http://www.indiastand.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2010/04/obama.jpg

Irony is beautiful sometimes. :p

[Chuck Haggard]

I assume he wants to abandon more of them to die in a big fire after they run out of ammo.......

[ToddG]

I assume he wants to abandon more of them to die in a big fire after they run out of ammo.......

Does anyone here actually think he sees them as living, breathing human beings? They're political assets to be spent as necessary.

[NEPAKevin]

Sending small units with limited support into a territory where both sides have a reason to want to kill them all? BRILLIANT!!!

Kind of like the plot of the book written by Mark Bowden, Ridley Scott did the movie, starred Josh Harnett and Eric Bana?

[Chuck Haggard]

Kind of like the plot of the book written by Mark Bowden, Ridley Scott did the movie, starred Josh Harnett and Eric Bana?

Kinda, except those things often turn into the Little Big Horn if you don't get lucky.

[MDS]

Fascinating: (http://www.theonion.com/articles/poll-majority-of-americans-approve-of-sending-cong,33752/) "91 percent of those surveyed agreed that the active use of sarin gas attacks by the Syrian government would, if anything, only increase poll respondents’ desire to send Congress to Syria."

[Odin Bravo One]

Here are my questions for the pros here:

1. What does the US get out of this? If it's control over Syria and therefore Iraq, how does Obama square his 'peaceful' ending to Bush's wars?

embarrassed.

2. Why has Europe, who benefits more directly with a pipeline, not fully backed intervention? because hey know t is lose/lose and none of their business. If it's b/c of Russian oil pressure, then how will that change our relationship with Russia and inevitably the Chinese, etc?

3. Since Cpt Chaos and Kid Shotgun have done nothing but lambaste Bush's wars, how will they sell this to the nation, let alone the world when this inevitably puts us back in the quagmire of the ME? Is this going to be a magic faerie Unicorn dust attack with Teflon and Pam added for super slipperiness as not to leave a single atom behind?

they'll blame Bush.

BUT WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!! :mad: :confused:


I wonder if there's a Call Option on these certificates?

http://www.indiastand.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2010/04/obama.jpg

Irony is beautiful sometimes. :p

Which irony? That he is holding a peace prize given to him for doing nothing at the time of the award, then promoting unilateral kinetic strikes against targets in a conflict in which his country has no interest?

Or that that the Nobel Peace Prize is named after the guy who invented dynamite, which has served as the foundation for every explosive compound since?

[BLR]

Or that that the Nobel Peace Prize is named after the guy who invented dynamite, which has served as the foundation for every explosive compound since?

Highly strained, oxygen rich chemicals are the most fun.

Just sayin'

Interesting historical/technical trivia: "dynamite" is just nitroglycerine mixed with (originally) dirt to make the nitroglycerine more stable. That's why early westerns showed dynamite "sweating." The sweating is the nitroglycerine leaking from the sticks, making them extremely dangerous. The modern "dynamite" is actually TNT. Or trinitrotoluene (toluene with 3 functional groups of NO2...stressed pi bonds and lots of oxygen. Fun for everyone.) TNT is much more stable than nitro.

Historical/technical trivia #2: DuPont, the maker of "dynamite" used to have giant slides out of the factory in case the nitration reaction decided to "run away." They look like airline escape slides.

[RoyGBiv]

Which irony? That he is holding a peace prize given to him for doing nothing at the time of the award, then promoting unilateral kinetic strikes against targets in a conflict in which his country has no interest?

Or that that the Nobel Peace Prize is named after the guy who invented dynamite, which has served as the foundation for every explosive compound since?
I had the first one in mind (that plus drone strikes). The latter is just icing.

[Tamara]

Does anyone here actually think he sees them as living, breathing human beings? They're political assets to be spent as necessary.

The thing that worries me is that the guy at the top has a knowledge of military affairs limited to "rooks move horizontally and vertically, bishops move diagonally". He has spent most of his adult life running with a crowd where ignorance of the details of matters military is a point of pride.

Saying goofy things like "SEALS will be utilized to secure the Chemical weapons but will not be involved in "combat" operations" leads me to believe that, since Neptune Spear, he thinks JSOC is, like, throwing "tiger hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLIDkEKfUhw)" in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

[RoyGBiv]

"tiger hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLIDkEKfUhw)"
Whoever wrote the score for that should win an Oscar. :D

[Shellback]

Things are getting more interesting... BREAKING: China Sends Warships & 1000 Marines to Syria, Accuses the U.S. of lying About Syria And Ignoring International Laws. (http://investmentwatchblog.com/china-accuses-the-u-s-of-lying-about-syria-and-says-u-s-ignoring-international-laws-china-sends-warships-to-syria-joining-russian-warships-in-mediterranean-sea/) Russia Sends another Amphibous Assault Ship. Turkey Sends More Troops to Syria Border.

[TCinVA]

Power abhors a vacuum.

[Kyle Reese]

Herbert Hoover's fault.

[BaiHu]

Herbert Hoover's fault.

American uninformed voter: *inhale* Totally duuude, that's the guy that invented Dyson....hahaha, that guy totally suuuucks. *exhale*

(ducks before things get thrown due to bad joke)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[RoyGBiv]

Things are getting more interesting... BREAKING: China Sends Warships & 1000 Marines to Syria, Accuses the U.S. of lying About Syria And Ignoring International Laws. (http://investmentwatchblog.com/china-accuses-the-u-s-of-lying-about-syria-and-says-u-s-ignoring-international-laws-china-sends-warships-to-syria-joining-russian-warships-in-mediterranean-sea/) Russia Sends another Amphibous Assault Ship. Turkey Sends More Troops to Syria Border.

This is what happens when your mission planning gets vetted in the media. (Reap α Sow)

Honestly, I'm caught in a conflicting web of feelings about all this... I suspect I'm not alone.

[Tamara]

Things are getting more interesting... BREAKING: China Sends Warships & 1000 Marines to Syria, Accuses the U.S. of lying About Syria And Ignoring International Laws. (http://investmentwatchblog.com/china-accuses-the-u-s-of-lying-about-syria-and-says-u-s-ignoring-international-laws-china-sends-warships-to-syria-joining-russian-warships-in-mediterranean-sea/) Russia Sends another Amphibous Assault Ship. Turkey Sends More Troops to Syria Border.

Do we have a source for all this that cites someone other than Debka Files and Infowars? Because I would fact check those kittening kittenclowns if they told me it was kittening raining outside.

EDIT: Google's noth giving me anything about the alleged PLAN naval deployment outside of the Alex Jones wing of the Internet.

[Shellback]

Negative Ghostrider... I think I jumped the gun on that one. :o

[Tamara]

Welcome to Bizzaroworld, where us offering a "missile shield" to our NATO ally Poland is needlessly provocative, while Putin's offering one to terrorism sponsor and occasional provocateur Syria is statesmanlike and enhances stability.

(Of course, our logic for wanting to launch missiles on a sovereign nation without declaring war is a little shaky, but you can do that kind of thing against weedy little countries who can't shoot back. It would be received a little differently if, say, Yamamoto had claimed that he wasn't carrying out an act of war, but rather a "time-limited, scope-limited kinetic military operation to degrade the effectiveness of USN units that threatened the Japanese people." I don't think FDR would have bought it for a minute.)

[Shellback]

Like this?

http://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/1234601_649161538436623_1701307452_n.jpg

[SecondsCount]

Highly strained, oxygen rich chemicals are the most fun.

.....

Historical/technical trivia #2: DuPont, the maker of "dynamite" used to have giant slides out of the factory in case the nitration reaction decided to "run away." They look like airline escape slides.

ATK has those slides out at the plant in Utah that manufactures the rocket propellant for the space shuttle. There is a ton of space between buildings and they are miles from civilization.

[Dagga Boy]

Welcome to Bizzaroworld, where us offering a "missile shield" to our NATO ally Poland is needlessly provocative, while Putin's offering one to terrorism sponsor and occasional provocateur Syria is statesmanlike and enhances stability.

(Of course, our logic for wanting to launch missiles on a sovereign nation without declaring war is a little shaky, but you can do that kind of thing against weedy little countries who can't shoot back. It would be received a little differently if, say, Yamamoto had claimed that he wasn't carrying out an act of war, but rather a "time-limited, scope-limited kinetic military operation to degrade the effectiveness of USN units that threatened the Japanese people." I don't think FDR would have bought it for a minute.)

My biggest worry is about Syria using their Russian anti-ship missiles to "defend" against a Navy attacking them from the Med. They would actually be in far better standing than us, and if just one slips through, we are going to have a bunch of dead sailors. I do not want to see a single US serviceman loose his life over this, and the horrible position it would put us in.

[RoyGBiv]

A way out?

Calling Kerry's bluff? Russian official floats plan to avert military strike on Syria (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/09/russian-official-floats-plan-to-avert-military-strike-on-syria/)

Anyone care to speculate? Did POTUS have a constructive discussion with Putin last week?
"Vlad, buddy, help me out here and I'll show you some of that flexibility I promised Dmitry last year"

Perhaps the best possible outcome, considering how FUBAR'd the situation is right now.

[BLR]

ATK has those slides out at the plant in Utah that manufactures the rocket propellant for the space shuttle. There is a ton of space between buildings and they are miles from civilization.

Brother of one of our best chemists works out there in the solid propellant group. The pay they get for cutting out the igniter is unreal.

I can tell you this also - when TEOTWAWKI comes, I'm getting into the primer manufacturing business. :D

[BaiHu]

A picture is worth a thousand words, but a comic can be priceless.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/16/sypasara.jpg

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[fuse]

A picture is worth a thousand words, but a comic can be priceless.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/16/sypasara.jpg

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Roflcopter

[NickA]

Obama waives parts of Arms Export Act so we can arm Syrian rebels. But not the terroristy ones, just the good ones. Or something.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2535885

Gotta love this:
"Our intelligence agencies, I think, have a very good handle on who to support and who not to support," Corker said. "And there's going to be mistakes. We understand some people are going to get arms that should not be getting arms. But we still should be doing everything we can to support the free Syrian opposition."

[Tamara]

"Our intelligence agencies, I think, have a very good handle on who to support and who not to support," Corker said. "And there's going to be mistakes. We understand some people are going to get arms that should not be getting arms. But we still should be doing everything we can to support the free Syrian opposition."

But remember, kids: People who think they can resist a tyrannical government with small arms are just bitter clingy flyover Republicans who don't know what arugula is.

And Syrians, who we support.

Or something.

The more schizoid this administration gets, the more this really does feel like Jimmy Carter's third term.

[Nephrology]

But remember, kids: People who think they can resist a tyrannical government with small arms are just bitter clingy flyover Republicans who don't know what arugula is.

And Syrians, who we support.

Or something.

The more schizoid this administration gets, the more this really does feel like Jimmy Carter's third term.

Obama is running off the rails and taking most of the dems with him.

[RoyGBiv]

Obama is running off the rails and taking most of the dems with him.

Too bad voters are still asleep at the switch.
And those that aren't don't have too many good alternatives.

[Kyle Reese]

Too bad voters are still asleep at the switch.

It's football season.

[BaiHu]

But remember, kids: People who think they can resist a tyrannical government with small arms are just bitter clingy flyover Republicans who don't know what arugula is.

Is this some kind of hidden code?? Tam....level with us, are you winning the internetz b/c you're NSA???

[TCinVA]

But remember, kids: People who think they can resist a tyrannical government with small arms are just bitter clingy flyover Republicans who don't know what arugula is.

And Syrians, who we support.

Or something.

The more schizoid this administration gets, the more this really does feel like Jimmy Carter's third term.

At this point I don't know if that's fair to Jimmy Carter.

...and that, ladies and gents, is another in a long line of sentences I never thought my brain would actually have to form.

[LHS]

At this point I don't know if that's fair to Jimmy Carter.

...and that, ladies and gents, is another in a long line of sentences I never thought my brain would actually have to form.

Speaking of former presidents being compared to this one...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1268675_564529836934725_632973532_o.jpg

[Tamara]

Speaking of former presidents being compared to this one...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1268675_564529836934725_632973532_o.jpg

I've been saying it since '09. (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/09/heh.html)..

[Kyle Reese]

Report highlights al Qaeda affiliates' role in Syrian atrocities

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/10/report_highlights_al.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LongWarJournalSiteWide+%28The +Long+War+Journal+%28Site-Wide%29%29#ixzz2hRrJgL8l