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HCM
04-25-2013, 09:19 AM
For those who have been wondering about DHS Ammo contracts ....

ICE Assistant Director Bert Medina to Testify on Ammunition Procurement

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit Assistant Director Bert Medina will testify today at 10:00 a.m. before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Subcommittee on National Security, in a hearing titled, “Oversight of the Federal Government’s Procurement of Ammunition.”

Nick Nayak, Chief Procurement Officer, U.S. Department of Homeland Security; and Patrick P. O’Carroll, Jr., Inspector General, Social Security Administration, will also testify. Additionally, Jon Adler, National President, Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, will testify on a separate panel at the hearing.

Once the hearing begins, the committee will broadcast the hearing from its website at

http://oversight.house.gov/hearing/oversight-of-the-federal-governments-procurement-of-ammunition/

ToddG
04-25-2013, 11:08 AM
I know Bert and dealt with him for years while I was running the Federal programs at SIG. He's a good dude and definitely not interested in kicking in any of doors to take our guns or ammo.

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous...

HCM
04-25-2013, 11:45 AM
http://http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/?test=latestnews

Foxnews take = Reps challenge DHS ammo buys, say agency using 1,000 more rounds per person than Army


Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.

He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."

"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.



My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that many soldiers in support branches can go years without firing unless they are deploying overseas, so i do not think this is a fair comparison.

It is also my understanding the Army has a "tooth to tail" ratio of 13 or 14 support personnel for each combat arms soldier.

My experience is the average DHS Officer / Agent will fire between 800 and 1.000 rounds per year. SRT, special units etc will fire more so the overall average of 1,300 to 1600 per sounds right.

Chuck Whitlock
04-25-2013, 12:04 PM
http://http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/?test=latestnews

Foxnews take = Reps challenge DHS ammo buys, say agency using 1,000 more rounds per person than Army




My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that many soldiers in support branches can go years without firing unless they are deploying overseas, so i do not think this is a fair comparison.

It is also my understanding the Army has a "tooth to tail" ratio of 13 or 14 support personnel for each combat arms soldier.

My experience is the average DHS Officer / Agent will fire between 800 and 1.000 rounds per year. SRT, special units etc will fire more so the overall average of 1,300 to 1600 per sounds right.

DHS also runs the FLETC's, which train folks from many other federal and local agencies that are not part of DHS. I've personally expended copious amounts of FLETC ammo.....with glee! :cool:
They also train with duty ammo.

TGS
04-25-2013, 12:30 PM
Like Todd said in another thread....

Monday night on the gunternet: "Cops suck at shooting. They don't train enough."

Tuesday night on the gunternet: "What, the DHS bought more ammo for their LEOs to shoot? Unpossible! It's a conspiracy! Along with those MRAPs the DHS bought.....it's not like we have IEDs going off stateside, or people throwing bombs at cops!"

RoyGBiv
04-25-2013, 12:50 PM
The whole thing was theater. Silliness.

My fave part was when Nayak couldn't figure out how the media was reporting 1.5 billion rounds over 10 years when his numbers only added up to 750 million rounds over 5 years.

I guess even he puts his pants on one leg at a time. :D

Kevin B.
04-25-2013, 03:04 PM
http://http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/?test=latestnews

Foxnews take = Reps challenge DHS ammo buys, say agency using 1,000 more rounds per person than Army




My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that many soldiers in support branches can go years without firing unless they are deploying overseas, so i do not think this is a fair comparison.

It is also my understanding the Army has a "tooth to tail" ratio of 13 or 14 support personnel for each combat arms soldier.

My experience is the average DHS Officer / Agent will fire between 800 and 1.000 rounds per year. SRT, special units etc will fire more so the overall average of 1,300 to 1600 per sounds right.

The overwhelming majority of Army personnel are required to qualify annually. Certain personnel are required to qualify semi-annually. I am sure some units pencil-whip the qualifications, but that is an exception, not the norm.

Kyle Reese
04-25-2013, 03:39 PM
The overwhelming majority of Army personnel are required to qualify with annually. Certain personnel are required to qualify semi-annually. I am sure some units pencil-whip the qualifications, but that is an exception, not the norm.

That was my experience as well. We had to qualify quarterly.

hufnagel
04-25-2013, 03:47 PM
Comparing that with the small-arms purchases procured by the U.S. Army, he said the DHS is churning through between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer, while the U.S. Army goes through roughly 350 rounds per soldier.

He noted that is "roughly 1,000 rounds more per person."

"Their officers use what seems to be an exorbitant amount of ammunition," he said.

is that per officer per YEAR?
if so that's nothing. i've shot that much since the beginning of this year, and i'd barely qualify as amateur.

HCM
04-25-2013, 04:05 PM
is that per officer per YEAR?
if so that's nothing. i've shot that much since the beginning of this year, and i'd barely qualify as amateur.

Yes, per officer, per year. A normal line officer/ agent in DHS fires quarterly,expending between 200 and 250 rounds per quarter depending on assignment.

HCM
04-25-2013, 04:17 PM
The overwhelming majority of Army personnel are required to qualify annually. Certain personnel are required to qualify semi-annually. I am sure some units pencil-whip the qualifications, but that is an exception, not the norm.

Thanks. A friend who is a career Army Officer told me pre 9/11 he went five years without firing an Army rifle or pistol while in stateside staff assignments.

Is the annual qualification live fire / full distance or do simulators / plastic training ammo count?

Kevin B.
04-25-2013, 05:56 PM
Live fire.

Not HighSpeed
04-25-2013, 09:33 PM
And most of those qualifying soldiers are firing less than 100 rounds total, at a max. The "better" shooters shoot their 40 rounds and get off the firing line to go back to the unit and back to work. I have fired more rounds through my 3 year old Noveske than all the issued M4/M16s I've had in the 8.5 years I've been in the Army.

And these are considered Combat Arms Units(Field Artillery).

CCT125US
04-25-2013, 10:33 PM
The tin foil types love this procurement number. I have averaged about 13k per year for the last several years, however, I have only shot 1,960 rds YTD Seems like math is a hard thing for some to grasp. I wish more folks would run things through the filter of a brain cell.

Dan_S
04-25-2013, 10:52 PM
Good.

Hopefully some good facts and figures come out of this hearing so I'll have a sheaf of documents to throw at the next loony-tune that starts in on me about how the world is about to end because the DHS....blah...blah...blah....


:cool:

MikeO
04-25-2013, 11:35 PM
Aren't these ID/IQ (indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity) contracts?

They are just locking in options w several vendors, not likely to actually buy all that ammo from everybody?

Kevin B.
04-26-2013, 06:53 AM
And most of those qualifying soldiers are firing less than 100 rounds total, at a max. The "better" shooters shoot their 40 rounds and get off the firing line to go back to the unit and back to work. I have fired more rounds through my 3 year old Noveske than all the issued M4/M16s I've had in the 8.5 years I've been in the Army.

And these are considered Combat Arms Units(Field Artillery).

A field artillery unit equipped with M68s is authorized a minimum of 294 rounds per firer for zero and qualification annually. More depending on additional equipment available/they have been fielded. Additionally, they are authorized another 150 rounds for LFXs. Obviously this is in addition to any rounds authorized to be fired out of the howitzers which is their primary weapon system.

I am not doubting your experience, but if you were not shooting at least that much, your unit's leaders obviously did not understand how to leverage the STRAC to support training or elected not to train to the standard. Shame on them.

Unfortunately this is an all too common occurance in the Army. Fortunately, there are leaders who understand the STRAC and their units shoot substantially more than they are authorized. :cool:

Not HighSpeed
04-27-2013, 04:22 PM
M68's?

Oh you mean those battery powered red dot thingys that sit in a locker and never get used?

:p


But seriously, you are right. It is most unfortunate. I've been in this unit for just over a year now and have only shot with iron sights since I got here. There was never any thought to use the aimpoints and even when the unit left on deployment(I am staying back to go to ANCOC/SLC), they were shipped along..in a box, still not on the rifles. Heard they would be put on once they had boots on the ground...

My last unit, we did shoot more but this one not so much. Granted we are rocket artillery(MLRS/HIMARS), so it's a little more expensive than howitzers but I know we still don't shoot as much as we should/could.

Sorry to get off track, I just wanted to help point out that .mil doesn't shoot as much as people think they do.

JMS
04-29-2013, 08:28 AM
Aren't these ID/IQ (indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity) contracts?

They are, but if you ask some tinfoil-hatter if they've bothered to read the contract....

Ugh, it gets ugly with a quickness. Like congress, they don't read anything to understand it.

SGT_Calle
04-30-2013, 06:19 AM
In my Army time as a Bandsman we were pretty good about annual qualifications, but that realistically only meant 18 rounds to zero and 40 to qualify. Then I hauled around my 270 round combat load for two separate years in the desert. I'm glad I never had to fire a shot, though I'm sure I could have.
My point being that this is a look at the typical service and support Soldier, supporting the war fighters not taking the fight to the enemy.

TCinVA
04-30-2013, 07:23 AM
This "ZOMG! DHS AMMO!!!!" paranoia is clown shoes.