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View Full Version : J-frame fluff and buff?



mnealtx
04-20-2013, 01:49 PM
Going home next week on vacation for two weeks.

Ordered the Apex J-frame kit and will be installing it while I'm home. I'm planning on polishing the bearing sides of the hammer and the three bearing sides of the rebound slide. Anything else I need to touch up while I have it apart?

Note: I have access to wet/dry sandpaper but not stones, and by "bearing sides", I mean those sides that are contacting the frame or sideplates. Just wanted to make sure I was clear in what I was saying.

Nephrology
04-20-2013, 03:53 PM
I installed everything on the Apex kit except for the firing pin (it had issues and I was sent a replacement but was pleased enough without it to not bother taking it apart a second time.)

In my opinion lots of dry fire and proper lubrication should be enough. My trigger has gotten really pretty nice, though I do wish I had kept the factory rebound spring as the reset is a bit weak with the Apex spring. I think just some light polishing on the parts you mention will be suffice. Dry fire will take care of the rest.

ST911
04-20-2013, 06:08 PM
I have the Apex kit in all of my J-frames. I didn't do any extra polishing, and the results were quite satisfactory. I did lube the internals as recommended. I'll be curious to hear your results when finished.


I installed everything on the Apex kit except for the firing pin (it had issues and I was sent a replacement but was pleased enough without it to not bother taking it apart a second time.)

What issues? What was the difference in the firing pins?

mnealtx
04-20-2013, 06:25 PM
Skintop - what recommendations did you have for lube points? I'd be appreciative if you could share them, I've not found much regarding *where* to put lube on the internals.

I'm planning on a light film of grease on bearing surfaces of the hammer and rebound slide, and a drop of oil on pin locations like the center pin of the hammer.

SeriousStudent
04-21-2013, 12:08 AM
Scott Folk of Apex Tactical put out a set of Youtube videos regarding installation of the J-frame kit.

Disassemble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIUfmg1JulE

Even more important, reassemble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrz7SSbpAk

Scott offers some advice on some simple smoothing on a few parts. We had a Spyderco Sharpmaker sitting on the kitchen counter, and used the ceramic stones from it. Nothing resembling aerobic activity, we just smoothed the internal parts a wee bit.

The only lubrication was a Shiner Bock beer after the shooting irons were put away. I did not add anything slippery inside the guts of the 642.

ST911
04-21-2013, 09:16 AM
Skintop - what recommendations did you have for lube points? I'd be appreciative if you could share them, I've not found much regarding *where* to put lube on the internals.

Grease as shown in the video, light oil on other moving surfaces. Slip EWL, to be precise.

joshs
04-21-2013, 09:24 AM
The reset is to slow for me with the weaker rebound spring if the rebound slide isn't polished. The rebound slide is the only part I intentionally polished on the inside of my 442 (others have been polished through use).

mnealtx
04-21-2013, 01:28 PM
Scott Folk of Apex Tactical put out a set of Youtube videos regarding installation of the J-frame kit.

Disassemble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIUfmg1JulE

Even more important, reassemble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATrz7SSbpAk

Scott offers some advice on some simple smoothing on a few parts. We had a Spyderco Sharpmaker sitting on the kitchen counter, and used the ceramic stones from it. Nothing resembling aerobic activity, we just smoothed the internal parts a wee bit.

The only lubrication was a Shiner Bock beer after the shooting irons were put away. I did not add anything slippery inside the guts of the 642.

I've seen the videos, but I don't recall him going into much detail on smoothing/lubrication other than the rebound slide. I'll have to look at them again...and have a Shiner ready after the work is done and the guns put up.

mnealtx
04-21-2013, 01:28 PM
The reset is to slow for me with the weaker rebound spring if the rebound slide isn't polished. The rebound slide is the only part I intentionally polished on the inside of my 442 (others have been polished through use).

Thanks, josh - did you find the same reduction in overall trigger weight with the stronger rebound spring in place?

joshs
04-21-2013, 02:54 PM
Thanks, josh - did you find the same reduction in overall trigger weight with the stronger rebound spring in place?

No, but on a jframe I feel the lower pull weight is worth the slower reset. On a full size revolver, I prefer the stronger reset.

mnealtx
04-21-2013, 03:04 PM
Thanks, Josh -

Any thought on lubrication other than greasing the main/rebound slide springs as shown in the video?

joshs
04-21-2013, 03:07 PM
Thanks, Josh -

Any thought on lubrication other than greasing the main/rebound slide springs as shown in the video?

Nope. I used grease when I installed the Apex kit as shown in the video.

mnealtx
04-21-2013, 04:16 PM
So, springs only, then? Thanks!

joshs
04-21-2013, 04:51 PM
So, springs only, then? Thanks!

I may have put grease on the bearing surfaces of the rebound slide as well, but I can't remember. It's probably not still there anyways, and I'm not going to take the side plate of to re-grease.

mnealtx
04-21-2013, 05:18 PM
and I'm not going to take the side plate off to re-grease

That's a good point...especially if it's not specifically needed.

Nephrology
04-21-2013, 06:09 PM
What issues? What was the difference in the firing pins?

Apex firing pin was slightly wider than it needed to be in my 442-2. It was stuck forward after a dry fire, which I fixed by tapping it gently with a wooden dowel. Called Apex, they explain they were working on a new spring kit and they would send me a full replacement when it was done, which they did. I installed every spring from the first kit and use the factory firing pin - I am 100% satisfied and have had no light strikes or other issues in ~300 rounds, both std. pressure 158gr LRN and 135gr +P Gold Dots JHPs.

LSP972
04-23-2013, 08:29 AM
The reset is to slow for me with the weaker rebound spring if the rebound slide isn't polished. The rebound slide is the only part I intentionally polished on the inside of my 442 (others have been polished through use).

This. One would be well advised NOT to "polish" the sides of the hammer/trigger/hand/etc. If you change to tolerances such that these parts "wobble" in the slightest, then you just made your action worse.

I have put a half-dozen or so of those Apex kits in various Centennial J frames. As far as I'm concerned, its one of those rare products that does exactly what it claims to do.

.

mnealtx
04-23-2013, 12:25 PM
This. One would be well advised NOT to "polish" the sides of the hammer/trigger/hand/etc. If you change to tolerances such that these parts "wobble" in the slightest, then you just made your action worse.

I have put a half-dozen or so of those Apex kits in various Centennial J frames. As far as I'm concerned, its one of those rare products that does exactly what it claims to do.

.

I appreciate your point, but Apex *does* advise to polish the rebound slide in their video, and I've received an email from their gunsmith saying to polish a few spots on the hammer. Taking enough metal off to change tolerances is well beyond *polish*, and if knocking off some high spots in the casting changes the tolerances, then I was going to need to send the gun in for warranty work in a few hundred/thousand rounds as wear burnished those spots down.

LSP972
04-23-2013, 04:04 PM
I appreciate your point, but Apex *does* advise to polish the rebound slide in their video, and I've received an email from their gunsmith saying to polish a few spots on the hammer. Taking enough metal off to change tolerances is well beyond *polish*, and if knocking off some high spots in the casting changes the tolerances, then I was going to need to send the gun in for warranty work in a few hundred/thousand rounds as wear burnished those spots down.

Read again... I did not mention the rebound slide, because it does indeed need smoothing up on a new gun.

If you will look at the inside of the frame, you will see small bosses around the hammer and trigger pins. These are what the parts rest on. If the revolver is properly fitted, the sides of the hammer and trigger (except for the small circle that rest on the bosses) should not contact any other part of the frame... and polishing those areas is a waste of time. Better to lightly lube and dry-fire.

Whatever... your gun, do what you see fit.

.

mnealtx
04-23-2013, 05:16 PM
Read again... I did not mention the rebound slide, because it does indeed need smoothing up on a new gun.

If you will look at the inside of the frame, you will see small bosses around the hammer and trigger pins. These are what the parts rest on. If the revolver is properly fitted, the sides of the hammer and trigger (except for the small circle that rest on the bosses) should not contact any other part of the frame... and polishing those areas is a waste of time. Better to lightly lube and dry-fire.

Whatever... your gun, do what you see fit.

.

Asking questions and being willing to learn doesn't make me an idiot. Lecturing or condescending me because I didn't blindly agree with your opinion isn't going to win me over to your viewpoint, but information will. If you have information that counters what Apex's gunsmith told me, then offer it.

For example: Explain why knocking off any high/rough spots on the part of the hammer that rides those bosses is a bad thing for the trigger pull. If knocking off high/rough spots is enough to change the geometry, how would burnishing through firing (live or dry) *NOT* do the exact same thing?

LSP972
04-23-2013, 08:33 PM
Asking questions and being willing to learn doesn't make me an idiot. Lecturing or condescending me because I didn't blindly agree with your opinion isn't going to win me over to your viewpoint, but information will. If you have information that counters what Apex's gunsmith told me, then offer it.

For example: Explain why knocking off any high/rough spots on the part of the hammer that rides those bosses is a bad thing for the trigger pull. If knocking off high/rough spots is enough to change the geometry, how would burnishing through firing (live or dry) *NOT* do the exact same thing?

Dude... if you think my posts were lecturing, condescending, or obliquely referred to you as an idiot... then you need a thicker skin, or spend your time away from internet forums.

To answer your question; dry firing causes the parts to wear "naturally"; that is, against each other AT THE CONTACT POINTS, and at a uniform rate.

When you take a file, stone, etc., to one of the parts, you are : 1) very unlikely to apply the polishing action in a uniform manner; it takes much practice and experience to know where and how much force to apply, let alone which tool to use 2) even more unlikely to apply the action to the exact place needed, particularly the very small area we're concerned with in this example.

A revolver is a finely-fitted piece of machinery that is rather intolerant of bubba "gunsmithing". Granted, the Apex kit is pretty much a no-brainer, and polishing the rebound slide is rather easy (with the proper stone) with not much chance of causing a major problem. The hammer and trigger are a different story. FWIW, I have been an S&W armorer since 1987, and was once responsible for the upkeep of over a thousand revolvers; mainly K frame Smiths, but some L, N, and J frames as well. It has been my experience that the J frame is the least tolerant of kitchen table tune-ups.

Sorry to have twisted your knickers. Again, its your piece; do with what you will.

.

mnealtx
04-23-2013, 09:17 PM
Dude... if you think my posts were lecturing, condescending, or obliquely referred to you as an idiot... then you need a thicker skin, or spend your time away from internet forums.

Dude - I mentioned the rebound slide and the sides of the hammer, you came in talking about the trigger, the hand, the frame, etc and *then* lectured *me* about reading.


To answer your question; dry firing causes the parts to wear "naturally"; that is, against each other AT THE CONTACT POINTS, and at a uniform rate.

When you take a file, stone, etc., to one of the parts, you are : 1) very unlikely to apply the polishing action in a uniform manner; it takes much practice and experience to know where and how much force to apply, let alone which tool to use 2) even more unlikely to apply the action to the exact place needed, particularly the very small area we're concerned with in this example.

Looking at the Apex video, the side of the hammer appears to be a rather large area. Do you have a photo showing the small area of the hammer you're speaking of?

Picture is un-needed...found another video that shows the frame side of the hammer, which is recessed where the pin is.

joshs
04-23-2013, 10:52 PM
Please keep further discussion limited to the the merits of jframe trigger work and refrain from any further personal attacks. Thank you.

mnealtx
05-13-2013, 03:21 PM
Well, the operation was a success and the patient will still be able to play the piano.

At the recommendation of the Apex gunsmith, did some light polishing of the rebound slide and the sides of the hammer. Light film of grease on both and the frame pin for the hammer.

Weight of trigger reduced by about 1/3, no light primer strikes.

Well satisfied with the results.