To Close or Not To Close - That is the Question

[HCM]

Ok - I'll start - split off from the Boston Bombing Thread.

I have always been taught to close the dust cover on AR-15 / M16 series weapons when feasible. This has been consistent through .Mil, FLETC and outside training including Pat Rogers / EAG. I find it a mark of good weapons handling habits.

Based on the amount of dust bunnies, Cheeto crumbs and candy wrappers I have seen in cop guns, I think it’s a great habit for rifles carried in the real world.

[Jay Cunningham]

I don't do it (unless I'm storing the rifle long-term) and I don't teach it to any of my students. I can understand why it's been drilled into people who spent long stretches patrolling in areas with very fine sand, but that is not part of my reality.

I think the odds of a closed dustcover inducing a malfunction is higher than "dust" inducing a malfunction. But this is my reality as an armed citizen. I can understand why the troops do it and I can understand maybe why a patrol rifle should be stored this way.

[SecondsCount]

I usually close mine after loading just to keep things neat and prevent it from snagging on anything.

In taking a few carbine classes, I have never heard an instructor mention the dust cover.

[YVK]

In taking a few carbine classes, I have never heard an instructor mention the dust cover.

Vickers, Magpul - don't bother closing until done for good, no big deal.

EAG/Rogers - close after each evolution, Farnam - anally close (he tells the story of a sandstorm freezing a bunch of ARs).

LMS, "Frogman" - no mentioning.

That's been my experience with instructors.

[SeriousStudent]

It's just a habit for me, I don't think about it. Load the weapon, dust cover automagically gets closed. Another habit (good or bad) that was beaten into me by the Corps.

Jay, what malfunctions are you worried about it inducing? I'm genuinely interested. I learned the dust cover thing from an organization that also preached using the firing pin to scrap carbon off the muzzle crown - sigh. And align gas rings, yada yada yada....

[Jay Cunningham]

The dustcover can partially pop open if you are bracing off cover on the right side of the gun or if the right side of the gun is on the deck due to shooting under some type of cover. This can cause a stoppage. How likely? Well, I've seen it at least once. I don't think it's super-likely, but I think the likelihood of "dust" on a small area of the BCG causing the gun to stop is even less.

Of course this is dependent on operating environment and lube.

[NickA]

Only if you want coffee.
A.B.C.
A. Always
B. Be
C. Closing
Always be closing.


Sorry, I had to:o

[Odin Bravo One]

The dustcover can partially pop open if you are bracing off cover on the right side of the gun or if the right side of the gun is on the deck due to shooting under some type of cover. This can cause a stoppage. How likely? Well, I've seen it at least once. I don't think it's super-likely, but I think the likelihood of "dust" on a small area of the BCG causing the gun to stop is even less.

Of course this is dependent on operating environment and lube.

I'd argue that the stoppage is more likely to occur in either of those scenarios due to brass bouncing back into the action or having no where to go because of gun position vs. the dust cover actually inducing it. I've seen that happen a lot more often than I have seen the dust cover cause a malfunction. With one exception.....the Mk11 was famous for malfunctioning if you closed the dust cover. It's actually the only dust cover related malfunction I have ever seen.

Close it. Don't close it. Whatever you feel like doing. It's a risk, decision, and compromise that folks need to make for themselves and their circumstances. All things are a trade off to a degree.

I close mine after charging the gun. I close it before I leave a building, or move to outside terrain. I close it when the gun is going to get wet. But I certainly don't close it after every volley fired.

And if your gun is properly maintained and lubricated, it should function just fine without the dust cover closed for 90% of the shooting world.

[David Armstrong]

I was taught to close it in my basic training. When I went to Thunder Ranch I was taught to close it. DTI with Farnam, close it. It just makes sense to me that if you have something that can keep gunk and grunge away from a working part to use that something. On the other hand, I can't remember anyone ever being concerned about closing the darned thing while moving and scooting and rolling in the mud of a fight when there was actually a higher chance of grunge and gunk. So I try to remember to close it when I can, but I don't know if I would worry much about someone who didn't.

[orionz06]

Meh, I'll do whatever is right at that time. I think most of us as shooters are smart enough to think for ourselves. If I'm in a sand storm maybe I'll close it, if I'm bracing on cover maybe it's open. I'll figure it out then.

I apply this to everything. People are smarter than most instructors give credit for. If my understanding of the subject is strong enough I'll make my own decisions.

[ST911]

I didn't realize how often I closed the dust cover until another shooter pointed it out. When I paid attention thereafter, at the end of each drill set my support hand slid back, wrapped the mag well, then closed the dust cover before I let it hang. I had learned it long ago and been doing it, but somewhere it became deeply reflexive.

My outdoor ranges are fine sand, silt, and powdered clay, so it's handy.

[David Armstrong]

As I'm not up to date on all of the new things out there, outside of the AR-type platform what other rifles use the closed dust cover concept?

[Jay Cunningham]

The Nazi Sturmgewehr

[Kyle Reese]

F2000 from Belgium.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[JAD]

The Nazi Sturmgewehr

Not just German. NAZI.

[rob_s]

People are smarter than most instructors give credit for.

Two kinds of people think this way:
1) the kind that really ARE smarter
And
2) the kind that just THINK they are smarter

I have seen enough of the latter create problems for themselves (and often others) in six EAG classes to know that they far outnumber the former. Pat's methodology is largely based on that, for good or for bad.

Lots of smart people will struggle with new skills. In some cases, smart people will struggle even more because they are mentally asking "why?" in the middle of being taught something instead of just doing it and asking "why?" later or waiting for the why to reveal itself.

Dust covers are a great example of this. People with a desire to be a snowflake are looking for reasons NOT to do what they are told or, even worse, whatever is seen as conventional. Sometimes they come up with something truly better but more often they simply complicate things. Reasons to close the dust cover go beyond simply protecting the action. The biggest, especially when dealing with new shooters, is that it serves as the period on the "load and make ready" sentence as it serves as a battery check after a process that many new shooters can find difficult at first (some because they are dumb, some because they are too smart for their own good, some because they think they know better, some because they just want to be different).

Once you're beyond learning, or teaching, the process as/to a new shooter then yes, some people, are smarter than instructors seem to give them credit for, but then they should probably stop signing up for intro classes, or frankly stop taking classes altogether and get involved in regularly scheduled shooting events with their peers.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've seen people obsessively race to close their dust covers at the end of a drill, to the detriment of more important aspects of their post-engagement sequence.

The only reason that I have any opinion at all on something so trivial as whether or not people close their dust cover is because I've witnessed the "race to obsessively close the dust cover" become some type of overt attempt to display tactical plumage.

Uh yeah dude, you're super squared-away with that dust cover. Oh BTW you only have two rounds left in your AR... and none of your hits are in the black at 25 yards... but the dust cover thing, you're all over that.

[Wendell]

To Close or Not To Close - That is the Question
I have always been taught to close the dust cover on AR-15 / M16 series weapons when feasible. This has been consistent through .Mil, FLETC and outside training including Pat Rogers / EAG. I find it a mark of good weapons handling habits.
Based on the amount of dust bunnies, Cheeto crumbs and candy wrappers I have seen in cop guns, I think it’s a great habit for rifles carried in the real world.


Have you made your decision? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO_t7GtXO6w)

[Odin Bravo One]

I've seen people obsessively race to close their dust covers at the end of a drill, to the detriment of more important aspects of their post-engagement sequence.

The only reason that I have any opinion at all on something so trivial as whether or not people close their dust cover is because I've witnessed the "race to obsessively close the dust cover" become some type of overt attempt to display tactical plumage.

Uh yeah dude, you're super squared-away with that dust cover. Oh BTW you only have two rounds left in your AR... and none of your hits are in the black at 25 yards... but the dust cover thing, you're all over that.

While I agree with the facts.....and have seen plenty if what you describe.....it is the same as racing to he holster.

I can't force someone to use sound thinking and problem solving, nor a technique that has lots of merit. But I'm not going to stop teaching how to properly re-holster because some students try to show how their ops are blacker than the rest of the class by speed reholstering after failing to follow proper post shooting procedures.

I owe it to the rest of the students to teach proper techniques, and explain the why. There is a time and place to close the cover. And there is a time and place to holster quickly. If my student is smarter and more experienced than I am, is an idiot, or otherwise unteachable then so be it. But I won't rob the rest of the class of he information because there are a couple of tards on the line.

[Little Creek]

My first AR-15 style carbine is a S&W M&P15 Sport. I do not have to worry about closing the dust cover on that one. I also do not have to worry about jamming a round into the chamber with the nonexistant forward assist. I have since acquired other M4 style carbines with all the standard features. I doubt I will ever miss the dust cover. From my research, the forward assist is a solution in search of a problem.

[HCM]

My first AR-15 style carbine is a S&W M&P15 Sport. I do not have to worry about closing the dust cover on that one. I also do not have to worry about jamming a round into the chamber with the nonexistant forward assist. I have since acquired other M4 style carbines with all the standard features. I doubt I will ever miss the dust cover. From my research, the forward assist is a solution in search of a problem.

If I recall correctly, the original AR-15 had neither a dust cover nor a forward assist. For me, the dust cover is more useful for admin /daily grind issues than in actual firing / deployment of the weapon - ala the dust bunnies and Cheeto crumbs mentioned in my OP.

We "cruiser carry" all our work M-4's with empty chambers when stored in vehicles and I can't recall the last time I used the forward assist.

[Odin Bravo One]

and I can't recall the last time I used the forward assist.

Good point!



Unfortunately, several generations of our military were taught to use the forward assist as part of the "learn by rote" methodology, and the mantra spewed out at the various basic and advanced training programs resonates to this day. Most of those institutions continue to teach using the FA, and it is included in the literature and publications accompanying the AR/M4/M16's being issued.

To truly understand the forward assist, it's development, and implementation into the platform, we have to go back several decades when the entire program was relatively new, and the battlefield conditions compounded issues always seen when fielding a new system. (i.e., glitches, hiccups, parts breakage, reliability problems, ammunition variances, etc.) As a nation at war, and an unpopular one at that, the engineers and designers had to rush to solve a problem that none had personally experienced, so the solution was found in a vacuum. While it "kind of" worked, time has shown us that the FA mechanism isn't the solution they thought it was when it was implemented.

There are very few situations/circumstances where using the forward assist is a good idea. If using a quality modern carbine, with quality modern ammunition, quality modern magazines, and a round fails to properly and fully chamber...........there is probably a reason for that. Getting a bigger hammer to jam it in is usually not the answer.

[Jay Cunningham]

The only thing I use my FA for is after I press check.

[MDFA]

The only thing I use my FA for is after I press check.

Agreed. I use the same principle if I press check a pistol. Thumb on the rear of the slide and push forward. But never the old heel of the hand smack to force what may be a bad round into the chamber, therefore causing a more difficult malfunction to clear.

[Al T.]

Jay, I've gone to the Pat Rogers's method of checking for cartridge chambering.

[Jay Cunningham]

Jay, I've gone to the Pat Rogers's method of checking for cartridge chambering.

And what might that be?

[Jay Cunningham]

Agreed. I use the same principle if I press check a pistol. Thumb on the rear of the slide and push forward. But never the old heel of the hand smack to force what may be a bad round into the chamber, therefore causing a more difficult malfunction to clear.

If it's a successful press-check, wasn't the round already successfully chambered, i.e. a good round?

[orionz06]

Agreed. I use the same principle if I press check a pistol. Thumb on the rear of the slide and push forward. But never the old heel of the hand smack to force what may be a bad round into the chamber, therefore causing a more difficult malfunction to clear.

If the round is bad would you have been able to press check and/or get the slide closed fully to begin with?

[rudy99]

Closing the dust cover is part of the way Paul Howe teaches the load and make ready procedure.

Load mag, charge, press check (see brass), bump the fa twice and close the dust cover. I believe the closed dust cover is then an indication that the press check was done.

[Jay Cunningham]

Closing the dust cover is part of the way Paul Howe teaches the load and make ready procedure.

Load mag, charge, press check (see brass), bump the fa twice and close the dust cover. I believe the closed dust cover is then an indication that the press check was done.

This is the second example I've read of an instructor using the closed dust cover as a milestone or indicator of other-things-accomplished.

[Rick Finsta]

This is the second example I've read of an instructor using the closed dust cover as a milestone or indicator of other-things-accomplished.

One word: Kanban.

Are your headlights on?

Is your trunk ajar?

Is your computer off, or on and in standby?

Is your phone battery charged?

Visual or tactile indications that a function has been (or needs to be) performed are engineering controls; while not necessarily value-add manipulations in and of themselves, they can nonetheless be an important part of a manual of arms designed for maximum reliability of the tool (in this case weapon system).

[rudy99]

This is the second example I've read of an instructor using the closed dust cover as a milestone or indicator of other-things-accomplished.

I guess the "other things accomplished" would be as opposed to closing it to prevent dust/debris from getting in the chamber?

[Odin Bravo One]

Well, the DC won't close unless the gun is fully in battery. So I can see where it makes sense after a press check to close the dust cover.

Pat Rogers also teaches to close it to get his students in the habit of verifying the status of their weapon post engagement. He has them look into the action, then close the cover. At an EAG carbine course, it is taught, then expected that it be done after every firing repetition. Keep in mind that most courses are only 2 days long, and for a student who has never heard of, or been taught a technique, the more reps over two days, the more likely one is to actually learn the technique, and be able to apply it. Having attended several EAG courses, it makes sense the way Pat teaches the DC closing technique. I've even been the honorable recipient of the MC award, which could have been avoided, had I followed the EAG course guidance and examined the action, and closed the dust cover. It would have shown me an empty gun that I hadn't noticed because I was too busy shooting the shit with a buddy I hadn't seen in a long time, and was putting more emphasis on socializing than on training.

As a student of the game learns, grows, and develops as a shooter based on training and experience, the what, when, where, how, and why will continually change and evolve. Ideally, he/she will be able to determine their own best practices under a variety of circumstances, most importantly, those most applicable to their situation and needs.

There is no "One way", or "Only way" to do things. And I tend to move quickly away from any instructor who teaches that there is only one way. I flat out run from instructors who claim that not only is there only one way to do things, but insist that their way is the only correct way.

[Drang]

Well, the DC won't close unless the gun is fully in battery.

Not to pick nits, but it will close if the bolt is locked to the rear. (It was raining, and the range had no overhead cover. Only ever saw one M16 range with overhead cover, at Cp Humphreys, Korea.)

[Odin Bravo One]

Not to pick nits, but it will close if the bolt is locked to the rear. (It was raining, and the range had no overhead cover. Only ever saw one M16 range with overhead cover, at Cp Humphreys, Korea.)

Maybe nit picky, but it is also true. I (as often happens) made the assumption everyone reading would be able to keep up where we were discussing.

Thanks for pointing that out. I am sure there are some folks who did not know that, or where not completely sure where my point of the conversation was. I sometimes take for granted certain things.

[Al T.]

Jay,

When you load the AR, feel for the top cartridge in the magazine and determine if it's port or starboard. Insert magazine with a "push-pull", release bolt, place weapon on "Safe", close dust cover. Remove magazine, check that the top cartridge has moved to the other side. If so, the previous uppermost cartridge must be in the chamber. Insert magazine and check with "push-pull" to ensure magazine is locked in place.

I like this better than breaking the seal of the bolt/chamber after the action spring has had a good run at chambering a round.

[Jay Cunningham]

Okay, so it's a crossover check. I also like it for initial loading.

But what about a simple status check? How does that technique help?

[Surf]

After admin load, press check, FA bump, sweep to verify safety on, dust cover closed. Ready to deploy. After engagements, no immediate threats, area scan / assessment, personnel status check, weapon status check, dust cover closed, ready for movement. If I am on a shooting line and I have the time to relax, let it hang or shoot the shit with the guy next to me, I am also closing it up. While I am not as obsessive as what I may have seen in others, my own personal experiences / training environments have confirmed that there are times and places to close it up.