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View Full Version : Instructors - Have You Ever Told a Student to Get a Different Gun?



KentF
04-24-2011, 08:33 AM
Something very unexpected happened while doing the live fire of my NRA Basic Pistol class yesterday. I've been thinking about it overnight and decided to post here.

As I mentioned in this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?777-Gripping-too-tight&p=11910#post11910) my instructor stated that I was gripping the pistol - a H&K P30 - too tight. Some of my shots were going into the 9 ring with a couple I called pushed into the 8 ring. After firing a few more shots attempting a looser grip he had me stop and try his Beretta 92. This was not a stock gun, as he told me that he had replaced the springs and trigger and had had the action polished. I fired a few round with this, single action, putting all inside the X ring.

Afterword, we talked for few minutes and he told me that there is nothing wrong with my shooting. He then said, "I know this isn't something you a going to want to hear, but I would sell that P30 and get a different gun."

I now wished I had shot the Beretta double action to see how I did with that, but the implication that I can't shoot the P30 well is nagging me. It really did surprise me that I was able to shoot as well with a gun I was totally unfamiliar with.

JodyH
04-24-2011, 08:57 AM
A good instructor helps the student get the most out of the gun they own.
Handing you a tuned pistol and shooting it single action only did nothing to further your learning.
I'm a big fan of "run what you brung" and I'll do my best to help you get the most out of your gun.
Once you the shooter gain the experience and skill level to find any shortcomings in your gun then you can make the educated decision to replace it if you want to.
The only time I'd recommend a different gun is if yours was unreliable or dangerous.

On a related note.
IMO a basic skills instructor should use a stock service pistol in class and be able to demo drills with confidence and competence while shooting that pistol.
And I'll even go so far as to say the instructor should be able to pick up any students gun and be able to competently demo a basic drill with the students gun.

NickDrak
04-24-2011, 09:10 AM
Even if If the only goal you have for you and your P30 is to shoot x's on paper, he is wrong. It is likely a trigger control issue that can be fixed with time and practice.

rsa-otc
04-24-2011, 09:40 AM
Don't change the gun change the instructor. He should have been diagnosing what you were doing differently with the p30. Plenty of people shoot that gun perfectly well in all it's versions. He took the easy way out. And yes if you shot the beretta DA you very likely would've had the same problems as you did with the p30.

John Ralston
04-24-2011, 10:15 AM
Keep the P30 - it is just going to take some practice to get all the stars aligned. I did a TON of dry fire practice with my G19 and then with the P30 in order to keep the sights aligned on target while breaking the shot. It isn't something that just comes naturally - it does take practice.

The P30 is 10X's the gun that the Beretta is.

I did end up converting my V2 to the ToddG version...quite a dramatic decrease in trigger pull.

SouthNarc
04-24-2011, 10:50 AM
And I'll even go so far as to say the instructor should be able to pick up any students gun and be able to competently demo a basic drill with the students gun.

Agree 100%.

ToddG
04-24-2011, 11:34 AM
And I'll even go so far as to say the instructor should be able to pick up any students gun and be able to competently demo a basic drill with the students gun.

This. When I would teach at the IALEFI ATC, I would borrow students' guns for demos just to show that different actions or bigger calibers weren't a huge hindrance. The main reason for this was the occasional cop saying, "Yeah he can shoot four times faster than me, but it's because he's got that 9mm and I'm shooting a forty."

When someone unfamiliar with your pistol's action starts telling you that you need to change, that's a warning sign. I cannot begin to tell you how many instructors -- including some nationally recognized people -- told me to dump the DA/SA back when I was shooting for Beretta and SIG. They got their lack of familiarity confused with natural law.

Having said all that... yes, there have been times I've told students to consider a different gun. Unreliable guns, guns that are too big, guns that are too powerful, and the like have been known to elicit that suggestion from me.

David Armstrong
04-24-2011, 11:38 AM
I have recommended that students get different guns before but only if it was clear they had a gun that was unsafe/unreliable or they could not use well, such as a small woman who showed up at one of my classes with an N-frame S&W and there was just no way for her to get a decent firing grip with it, or the one with carpal tunnel issues that could not rack the slide on her gun. But given that you were able to use the 92 successfully that doesn't seem to be an issue, so I'd say doom on you to the instructor and stay with what you have.

Prdator
04-24-2011, 02:34 PM
If I have a student struggling with a gun I will always shoot there gun to make sure if it is them or the gun! Normally the gun is fine and the student see this, then they try harder to master it. I love doing this to hot shot LEO guys telling me there Glock always shoots left....

Now if the student puts in the effort and does not get to the level they want ( they always get better) I will recommend a deferent gun, mostly this is due to the fact there gun, normally a Glock or a Sig is two big for there hands. Gun fit is a very critical for having the ability to run the gun of choice at the top level of the shooter, with a smaller grip normally having a better result.

Keep trying with the P30 it is one of the best handguns on the market today and your perfectly capable of learning to shoot it very well!!!!!!

Oh, Im much nicer than ToddG Ill let my students shoot CZ's...:p

ToddG
04-24-2011, 03:48 PM
Oh, Im much nicer than ToddG Ill let my students shoot CZ's...:p

Before yet another ridiculous internet rumor starts spreading... I have never prevented a student from using any type of safe handgun in a class, including many who've opted to shoot CZs.

jlw
04-24-2011, 04:22 PM
I prefer teaching basic entry level and firearms safety course over things more advanced. One of the things that I often see is ladies who have had a husband/boyfriend/father/gun-store-employee/etc convince them that the only gun for them is a J-frame.

I'm not bashing the J-frame at all as I regularly carry one, but while they are often pushed on ladies due to the ease of loading, etc, more than a few have triggers that are somewhat lacking. In my last class, one lady brought a model 36 with a trigger so heavy that she couldn't pull it.

I spent time with each of the ladies teaching them how to properly work a slide using push/pull leverage. Before the class was over, each one of them was successfully loading and getting accurate shots with semi-autos including my Glock and a Kimber 1911.

Reports back from husbands/boyfriends/fathers is that I cost one of them his Colt Gold Cup and another that received demands for new pistols from his wife and daughter.

Prdator
04-24-2011, 04:48 PM
Before yet another ridiculous internet rumor starts spreading... I have never prevented a student from using any type of safe handgun in a class, including many who've opted to shoot CZs.


TLG, I concur!, Sorry for my bad attempt at misguided humor.





A few other thoughts on gun fit.
One of my great Training partners did a hardware change and Drastically improved his shooting, Immediately!! He switched from Glock to and M&P, with his had size the M&P fit has hands much better and his shooting performance showed it!!

This came hard though he put several Thousand rounds though his Glocks and was in Several training classes, before he changed, and this was only after shooting a few "loaner" M&P's and finding his shooting improved.

So for some cases a hardware change can increase the shooters capability but this should only happen quickly if the gun in question is unreliable ( See TLG's post above) or to large for the shooters hands. The P30 is the most adaptable handgun for fit of a shooters hands out there!! Plus several different trigger systems, ah I so have to buy one some day!!

LOKNLOD
04-24-2011, 06:45 PM
A few other thoughts on gun fit.
One of my great Training partners did a hardware change and Drastically improved his shooting, Immediately!! He switched from Glock to and M&P, with his had size the M&P fit has hands much better and his shooting performance showed it!!

This came hard though he put several Thousand rounds though his Glocks and was in Several training classes, before he changed, and this was only after shooting a few "loaner" M&P's and finding his shooting improved.


Similarly, that process mirrors how I ended up with a safe full of Glocks and a holster full of P30...

And when I shot Prdator's Gen 4 G17 the other day it reminded me that it was the right choice; we talked about this exactly.

There is a big difference between falling into the trap of chasing new guns as a solution to training/experience issues versus recognizing you're struggling unnecessarily with something and figuring out how to remove the stumbling block from your path forward.

Aray
04-24-2011, 06:54 PM
Trigger control is a skill, the recommendation of masking poor trigger control with a custom gun is a disservice to the student.

Chuck Haggard
04-24-2011, 08:44 PM
Not students strictly, but I have told people on my range that they might be better off trading in the Jennings/Lorcin/Taurus/etc. that they were trying to qual with and buy a real gun.

Seriously.

It's rampant with the newer armored car guys around here. They could take a perfectly good K or L frame company gun but they have to buy a semi-auto because that's what's cool in movies, so they head to the pawn shop and buy the cheapest pistol they can find.

I did tell a gal once, like 5'1" and a buck 'o five that perhaps the Beretta 92 she was struggling with may not be the best choice for her.

I'll teach someone to shoot damn near anything, but you can only take modifying the mechanics of things like grip so far.

Josh Runkle
04-24-2011, 09:48 PM
As an instructor, I've spent a lot of time and money in the firearms industry, and so a gun that is $450 is not an "expensive" gun to me. However, that may be well beyond the realm of someone else. They might have saved for months to buy that Ruger P95 they showed up at class with.

When I might decided to tell them to buy a different gun is when they plan on carrying it, yet it malfunctions constantly and is not reliable.

I always start with trying to get what they have up and running, whether that's changing out mags or ammo or modifying the gun itself. If that won't work I ask them to have a gunsmith check it out to see if they can work out the reliability issues. If that fails, I tell them, "Hey, your firearm is still something you can take to the range, but it's not something I would recommend relying upon if you need it to save your life."

Now, if it's simply the OPs scenario, that's silly. A P30 or beretta 92, either one is fine. Change the student, not the gun, unless there is something physically wrong with the gun, or the student has a physical limitation in terms of a handicap.

TCinVA
04-25-2011, 07:13 AM
Only a couple of times, and only when it was plainly obvious that the individual was completely unsuited to the weapon. Example: I did some basic instruction for a lady who was interested in getting a carry permit. Her husband had decided in his infinite wisdom that she should have a Para Ordnance Warthog. So the first pistol she's ever fired is some hopelessly awkward thing with monster recoil. She was so scared of the pistol she was literally turning her head and closing her eyes when she shot.

She needed a different pistol.

If a weapon genuinely doesn't fit someone then getting another gun can help them progress.

In your case the instructor is just wrong. The simple fact is that with the proper instruction and practice you can learn to shoot the P30 extremely well. Unfortunately there are a lot of "instructors" out there who have no idea how to diagnose a student's issues and no idea on how to offer useful feedback to help a student progress. Instructors who are really good at diagnosing what you are doing wrong and who have a game plan to help you improve are rare, in my experience. (And I've done a little bit of this training stuff...there's a reason why I spend my time and money repeatedly with instructors like Larry Vickers and ToddG) When they encounter the limitations of their knowledge it's not uncommon to suggest an equipment change in the hopes it offers improvement. The truth is that the benefits from an equipment change are generally short-lived...hence the phenomenon of people buying a new gun every few months looking for the gun that will make up for their deficit in skill and understanding.

I rarely advise that someone buys another gun. Generally people are much better served by doing their homework to learn the gun they have.

NGCSUGrad09
04-25-2011, 08:00 AM
My first answer is my business degree answer of it depends...

With that in mind, it depends on what the class is over and the students objectives for using a firearm. GENERALLY, any corrections are to be made with the shooter and adapting to the particular platform. There have been instances where a recommendation of a hardware change is to the shooters benefit. To the OP, I don't believe a change in firearm would be one of those instances. Sure it would be easier to learn on a gun with a lighter trigger and shorter reset, but it is not required to do so. On the other hand, if the OP had say an injury or major surgery on the hand that made a heavier trigger was cause pain or be physically unable to pull the trigger, then yes changing the gun would be something to consider.

Side note: A common problem I've seen is that people want to chase the "perfect" piece of kit or firearm that will make them better without putting in the work to do so. I find myself recommending someone to stay with one pistol/platform and learn it well. We all change stuff around from time to time, but the imprtant part is understanding why a change is made and then working with it to find a benefit.

jetfire
04-25-2011, 03:02 PM
Before yet another ridiculous internet rumor starts spreading... I have never prevented a student from using any type of safe handgun in a class, including many who've opted to shoot CZs.

I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class. ;)

rsa-otc
04-25-2011, 03:12 PM
I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class. ;)

That sounds like a safety issue to me.:cool:

NGCSUGrad09
04-25-2011, 03:32 PM
I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class. ;)

I didn't know Todd taught a class on the application of hand grenades! :p

ToddG
04-25-2011, 03:37 PM
I do seem to remember you telling me to get something other than my Sig 1911 because it might explode and kill everyone at the class. ;)

That was just a joke, of course. If I really thought it was endangering other students, I would not have allowed it. It was actually only endangering you, and everyone was ok with that. :cool:

John Hearne
04-25-2011, 04:19 PM
It is not uncommon to see people struggle with guns that are too big for their hand. Most typically if the trigger finger drags on the frame as they actuate the trigger, they'll struggle. At work, we have to carry Sigs but have a range of options as far as model. I've had fairly good luck improving someeones shooting by getting them in a smaller gripped weapon. A lot of people don't like single stack guns but if they demonstrably shoot them better, I encourage them to make the switch and practice reloading more.

Corey
04-26-2011, 10:43 AM
I used to teach a lot of ccw classes and saw everything from Hi Points to even a Ruger Super Blackhawk used by students. I had a couple of Model 10 revolvers and G19 pistols available as loaner guns if needed, but I never tried to force a student to change guns. If their gun was malfunctioning or if they simply could not manipulate it properly then I would have them try another gun. Part of the classroom lecture covered choosing a gun, and I had many students ask to try one of the loaner guns to see the difference compared to what they brought. They smart ones didn't need anyone to tell them which gun was better for them.

vecdran
04-26-2011, 06:25 PM
That was just a joke, of course. If I really thought it was endangering other students, I would not have allowed it. It was actually only endangering you, and everyone was ok with that. :cool:

I made sure to stand behind someone else whenever Caleb was shooting. ;)

Munson
04-27-2011, 08:28 AM
Ken, I hate to say it, but your instructor is correct. You do need to get rid of that P30. I know your gonna need a new ride, and im all about helping a fellow shooter out. Send me your address and I'll have $300 bucks heading your way for that old, poor shooting pistol. No need to thank me, just pass it on.

Lon
04-28-2011, 12:57 PM
... yes, there have been times I've told students to consider a different gun. Unreliable guns, guns that are too big, guns that are too powerful, and the like have been known to elicit that suggestion from me.

This. Many times it is the women who show up in class with guns "my husband picked out for me". Their gun is usually a J frame type revolver of some Sort/brand.

Laughingdog
04-28-2011, 02:41 PM
When teaching CHP classes, I have recommended to the few that came in with High Points that, if they have an opportunity to sell it for close to what they spent on it, replacing it with a police trade-in Glock will be a much more dependable option.

Aside from that, the only time I've suggested a different gun (and hated saying it) was the older left-handed gentleman that had just bought a .40 Sig. With all of the issues he was having operating the controls (I wanted to smack the guy downstairs that talked him into it), I listed off a few brands that would be much more accomodating of a leftie like himself.

I wish more gun store sales people understood that, just because they like a particular model, doesn't make it the perfect model for absolutely everyone.

jar
04-28-2011, 04:45 PM
I wish more gun store sales people understood that, just because they like a particular model, doesn't make it the perfect model for absolutely everyone.

I wish more forum posters and shooters in general understood that too. That kind of BS is low here, but on more general interest shooting forums, hooh boy.

DocGKR
04-28-2011, 06:13 PM
As noted, the OP's instructor was an idiot.

I tell folks all the time that they would be better off with a different firearm. For example:

-- Officers with gen 3 G22's that cannot make it though a magazine without a malfunction...I recommend they consider a gen 3 G17.

-- SWAT team members with crap 1911's like Kimber's that cannot seem to finish a single drill without multiple malfunctions...I recommend they consider either a complete overhaul by a solid pistol-smith, get a different .45 ACP pistol (ie. SA 1911 Pro, M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf), or better yet just use their normal duty handgun.

-- Left handed officers with large hands who frequently inadvertently dump the mag from their Sig P series pistols I frequently suggest they consider trying a different duty pistol like an M&P, Glock, or HK.

-- Officers using .25, .32, .380 for off-duty use; yup, I recommend they consider using a different pistol like a G19, M&P, HK P30 or HK45c, etc...

Lon
04-28-2011, 11:39 PM
-- Left handed officers with large hands who frequently inadvertently dump the mag from their Sig P series pistols I frequently suggest they consider trying a different duty pistol like an M&P, Glock, or HK.


Why don't they just switch the mag release to left handed?

turbolag23
04-29-2011, 07:22 AM
I wish more gun store sales people understood that, just because they like a particular model, doesn't make it the perfect model for absolutely everyone.

very well said.

ive seen a couple instructors jokingly (or not) recommend replacing the XD(m) the student was using. the only other time was someone who could not get through a single mag without multiple failures in the CPL class.

DocGKR
04-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Xpd54--Because Dept. policy prohibited alteration of issued pistols.

Slavex
04-29-2011, 03:58 PM
the only times I've told a student to get a new gun is when it was a gun that was having lots of issues with reliability or was simply too large for them to hold onto properly. All that aside, I have noticed students do sometimes get better by just swapping out to another gun for the night. I think because with a new gun in their hands, they concentrate more on the things they should be concentrating on with their normal gun and don't, as they've become accustomed to it. Kinda like the hot chick you run into at the bar vs taking your wife of 20 years to the bar................ (don't tell my wife I said that).

Lon
04-29-2011, 11:52 PM
Xpd54--Because Dept. policy prohibited alteration of issued pistols.

Stupid policy. We issue sigs and it's standard for a dept. armorer to switch the mag release for any lefties that want it.

DocGKR
05-01-2011, 07:40 PM
I agree, many bureaucratic policies are quite illogical and stupid.

9 Micky Mouse
05-25-2011, 05:06 PM
I have some students will buy a weapon and take a class right away or sometime later and the weapon is to large or small for them. They have to really manipulate the weapon to get to the levels on it.

Or they have a caliber that they cannot control.

Josh Runkle
06-01-2011, 11:44 AM
When teaching CHP classes, I have recommended to the few that came in with High Points that, if they have an opportunity to sell it for close to what they spent on it, replacing it with a police trade-in Glock will be a much more dependable option.


Me and another instructor sometimes jokingly say we should tell students with hi-points that they should sell the hi-point and get a quality rock or brick, as it will be more reliable.

ProShooter
06-01-2011, 10:50 PM
On rare occassions, I have told a husband/wife combo that they need to have their own guns. Usually due to the wife trying to control a monster of a handgun that the husband uses.

One time, I told a student that her best gun would be no gun. She was a timid little creature from somewhere like wherethehellamIistan and she had never been around a gun at all in her life. She wanted absolutely nothing to do with a gun. Her deployed Army hubby demanded that she go and buy a gun while he was away. She bought a lightweight framed revolver. First shot, she screamed. Second shot, she dropped the gun, screamed and ran 10 feet back from the firing line. I had to send her hubby an email telling him that she should probably not be a gun owner, and that I would just be taking her money for nothing.

HeadHunter
06-02-2011, 04:57 PM
Not students strictly, but I have told people on my range that they might be better off trading in the Jennings/Lorcin/Taurus/etc. that they were trying to qual with and buy a real gun.


Hey I resemble that remark!