5.56mm 55gr GMX

[Rich]

I see that the 5.56mm GMX 55gr made the Doc`s list

Am I to understand that the 5.56 Superformance line was made for use in 20inch DI only
And that there was a timing issue?

So this load wont work in DI Carbines

the whole SF line is confusing so waht about superformance in 223rem loading and DI carbines?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Hornady has a 55 gr. GMX .223 in their TAP lineup.
I'm betting that it is this and not the Superformance loading.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/

[Prdator]

I see that the 5.56mm GMX 55gr made the Doc`s list

Am I to understand that the 5.56 Superformance line was made for use in 20inch DI only
And that there was a timing issue?

So this load wont work in DI Carbines

the whole SF line is confusing so waht about superformance in 223rem loading and DI carbines?


Were did you get the data from that the SF is only to be used in 20'' guns?

Greg, spoke well of it in some testing he was in.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wound-ballistics-workshop-gelatin-tests-on-some-new-bullets

[Rich]

Were did you get the data from that the SF is only to be used in 20'' guns?

Greg, spoke well of it in some testing he was in.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wound-ballistics-workshop-gelatin-tests-on-some-new-bullets

reading from there own website

Also I happen to buy 10 boxes of the 5.56mm SF 75gr . Hornady offer me a trade in for 75gr TAP 5.56mm
Of coarse thats been a long time ago.

I think there was a few topics on the SF 5.56mm ammo here.

[Rich]

Hornady has a 55 gr. GMX .223 in their TAP lineup.
I'm betting that it is this and not the Superformance loading.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/

its been some time but I was thinking the may have 2 loads
223rem & 5.56mm

[JHC]

reading from there own website

Also I happen to buy 10 boxes of the 5.56mm SF 75gr . Hornady offer me a trade in for 75gr TAP 5.56mm
Of coarse thats been a long time ago.

I think there was a few topics on the SF 5.56mm ammo here.

yeah that's where I read it too. The stuff grouped horrendously from my N4 Recce 16". Worst I'd ever seen in that rifle.

[Chuck Whitlock]

its been some time but I was thinking the may have 2 loads
223rem & 5.56mm

I noticed that when I went to the website, which is why I linked to that page instead of the specific .223 GMX page.
Probably should've altered my text to reflect that, but the point was that the GMX is not limited to the Superformance line.

[Molon]

I noticed that when I went to the website, which is why I linked to that page instead of the specific .223 GMX page.
Probably should've altered my text to reflect that, but the point was that the GMX is not limited to the Superformance line.


Hornady has produced at least three different loadings using their 55 grain GMX projectile.


https://app.box.com/shared/static/qc126cyrw73wtfbt025k.jpg



....

[Rich]

Was the GMX 5.56 shot using carbine?

I know you shoot both rifle & car

[Rich]

I see that the 5.56mm GMX 55gr made the Doc`s list

Am I to understand that the 5.56 Superformance line was made for use in 20inch DI only
And that there was a timing issue?

So this load wont work in DI Carbines

the whole SF line is confusing so what about superformance in 223rem loading and DI carbines?

[JHC]

I will try and find some of this for deer season. The Barnes TMX 55 grain was outstanding on the last deer I shot using it.

[Rich]

I will try and find some of this for deer season. The Barnes TMX 55 grain was outstanding on the last deer I shot using it.

I was just wondering if molon used a carbine when shooting / testing the SP 5.56mm loading


I don't have any Barnes 55gr TSX but I do have some of the 50gr loading by BH.

As a hunter I would think any SP would do for deer older or newer.

Thanks anyways

[DocGKR]

I prefer the BH produced 50 gr TSX for LE and defensive use...

[Molon]

Was the GMX 5.56 shot using carbine?

I know you shoot both rifle & car

20" barrel with a Wylde chamber.

[Molon]

From Hornady:

https://app.box.com/shared/static/92ff0xyxlh.jpg

[JHC]

I was just wondering if molon used a carbine when shooting / testing the SP 5.56mm loading


I don't have any Barnes 55gr TSX but I do have some of the 50gr loading by BH.

As a hunter I would think any SP would do for deer older or newer.

Thanks anyways

And as Doc noted above, that 50 grainer is the more better defense purposed loading. I was just able to find the Barnes brand's hunting load in 55 grain weight locally.

[DocGKR]

The 62 and 70 gr TSX are nice for hunting.

[BLR]

The 62 and 70 gr TSX are nice for hunting.

Not to start a hunting argument, but 223 shouldn't be used for hunting deer sized game imo.

There's more than a few lost deer that suffered and didn't need to because people took questionable shots with the latest greatest 223 round.

If you have to hunt with an AR, use a6.8.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

[223AI]

Not to start a hunting argument, but 223 shouldn't be used for hunting deer sized game imo.

There's more than a few lost deer that suffered and didn't need to because people took questionable shots with the latest greatest 223 round.

If you have to hunt with an AR, use a6.8.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

Likewise, not to start an argument, but how many deer sized animals have you actually taken with a 223?

In my opinion, a .223 loaded with proper bullets (Barnes/Swift/etc...) is a superb deer cartridge. It'll drop just about any deer in North America.

A questionable shot is a questionable shot, regardless of the ammo/gun combination. The advantage of the 223 is the reduced recoil, and reduced cost to shoot. This means more time can be spent piling primers on the range with little fatigue, and even less impact on the wallet.

[BLR]

Likewise, not to start an argument, but how many deer sized animals have you actually taken with a 223?

In my opinion, a .223 loaded with proper bullets (Barnes/Swift/etc...) is a superb deer cartridge. It'll drop just about any deer in North America.

A questionable shot is a questionable shot, regardless of the ammo/gun combination. The advantage of the 223 is the reduced recoil, and reduced cost to shoot. This means more time can be spent piling primers on the range with little fatigue, and even less impact on the wallet.

Um, ok.

You win.

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[DocGKR]

FWIW, I also prefer 6.8 mm for hunting with an AR15... However, what caliber is acceptable to use depends somewhat on what location of the country one is hunting in, as deer vary greatly in size--from dog size critters to nearly elk size behemoths. In some regions, 5.56 mm using quality ammunition and judicious shot placement works on deer. Same for hogs. I definitely would NOT use 5.56 mm for elk.

[BLR]

You know,I wasn't going to do this but...

The only time I've been elk hunting (didn't kill anything), another person in the camp brought a 270. Said he never saw a difference with that and heavier calibers. The guide said something to the effect of "try keeping you're eyes open when the gun goes off"

I consider that fitting here.

Can and should are not the same thing.

Lots of heavy game is killed with 22s. Doesn't make it ethical or smart.

I could care less if a crack dealer is shot with a whatever 223. I care when a deer is. Cost is a poor reason to do this.

And for the record, I have taken more than one pig with a 223. I wasn't impressed.

At all.

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[JHC]

Likewise, not to start an argument, but how many deer sized animals have you actually taken with a 223?

In my opinion, a .223 loaded with proper bullets (Barnes/Swift/etc...) is a superb deer cartridge. It'll drop just about any deer in North America.

A questionable shot is a questionable shot, regardless of the ammo/gun combination. The advantage of the 223 is the reduced recoil, and reduced cost to shoot. This means more time can be spent piling primers on the range with little fatigue, and even less impact on the wallet.

I've taken 8 with 8 shots. Longest about 80 yards. I've used the 55 gr Barnes bullet, 77 grain OTM, 68 grain OTM, 55 grain Bonded Bear Claw (Fed), and 60 grain Nosler partition. Massive internal organ damage at these ranges; nowhere near the bone splinters all over the place like the few close range .308 kills I've dissected.

But to Bill's point - I respect that cautionary note. If the hunter is up to it, I think the round it up to it. But IMO, and in my case, I have a rifle, but I hunt like an archer or a handgun hunter. A precise shot. I have passed up shots on walking deer and deer obscured by the thinnest veil of pine needles. It is not the round for the blaster of flushed deer for sure.

[TGS]

I've taken 8 with 8 shots. Longest about 80 yards. I've used the 55 gr Barnes bullet, 77 grain OTM, 68 grain OTM, 55 grain Bonded Bear Claw (Fed), and 60 grain Nosler partition. Massive internal organ damage at these ranges; nowhere near the bone splinters all over the place like the few close range .308 kills I've dissected.

But to Bill's point - I respect that cautionary note. If the hunter is up to it, I think the round it up to it. But IMO, and in my case, I have a rifle, but I hunt like an archer or a handgun hunter. A precise shot. I have passed up shots on walking deer and deer obscured by the thinnest veil of pine needles. It is not the round for the blaster of flushed deer for sure.

Were yours headshots, or traditional shots to the heart?

[223AI]

I've taken 8 with 8 shots. Longest about 80 yards. I've used the 55 gr Barnes bullet, 77 grain OTM, 68 grain OTM, 55 grain Bonded Bear Claw (Fed), and 60 grain Nosler partition. Massive internal organ damage at these ranges; nowhere near the bone splinters all over the place like the few close range .308 kills I've dissected.

But to Bill's point - I respect that cautionary note. If the hunter is up to it, I think the round it up to it. But IMO, and in my case, I have a rifle, but I hunt like an archer or a handgun hunter. A precise shot. I have passed up shots on walking deer and deer obscured by the thinnest veil of pine needles. It is not the round for the blaster of flushed deer for sure.

Agreed on the internal damage. Every deer and hog that I've taken via my 223 and .223AI has had impressive internal carnage, and all were taken from 200 and in, with most shots being high shoulder, neck, or head shots. None have run more than 10 yards, and most dropped in their tracks. Just about anything from Barnes or Swift Sirocco's do wonders, but I've settled on 75 maxes as my go to. Accurate, cheap, and a deadly bullet.

I also agree on the cautionary tale, and I would add that this is where my comment about the .223 being cheap comes into play. Cheaper ammo means, hopefully, more time on the range for folks...and that is never a bad thing. Like everything in life, practice builds a level of comfort, and a level of precision, that most everyone benefits from.

All that said, I would never take an elk with a .22 centerfire...my 6.5x47 or 308 can handle that.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have gone from one side of the fence to the other over the years.

Seen a lot of deer lost to deer legal calibers locally, mostly .243s and the big magnums. All from poor shot placement. This year .223 is legal here and I might use mine. One of the spots I hunt has shots measured in feet not yards. Took a big doe one year with my .308, which was harder than you would think from about 30 feet.

I have had to shoot dozens of deer over the years that have been hit by cars. Placed correctly I think a .223/5.56 is OK for deer if you use good bullets and take responsible shots.

I am also of the "hunt like a bow hunter" mindset. It is after all "deer hunting" and not deer sniping.

[JHC]

Were yours headshots, or traditional shots to the heart?

Two shot in the neck - dropped in tracks. One one of those was from my uphill position at about 60 yards with 77 gr OTM and it exited the front of throat with a gigantic (wound) wound like 4-5" across.

One at the front shoulder/neck juncture- dropped in tracks.

Other five were heart/lungs. Two of those were facing me (we're both on the ground) and the slug entered the lower throat into the chest cavity and through the diaphragm into the stomach. One of those dropped in tracks, one ran about 20 yards all downhill and piled up. The one that dropped in its tracks from the front on hit was shot with the 60 gr Nosler Partition. It was only about 25 yards from me and I was on it very quickly and saw blood just blowing out the entrance wound like a hose. The front half of the Nosler partition's rapid expansion really created a wide wound channel very quickly in that first 8" of penetration. I found the back end of that slug at least 16-20 inches back in the deer's stomach.

Other three of the 5 heart/lung hits were double lung'd with heart damaged also - they each ran from 15-30 yards and piled up. Although the one that only went 15 yards - 15 is where it ran smack into a tree and then to the ground.

They were all stationary when shot.

[BLR]

Parting thought for me ...

Match bullets are typically not game bullets. OTM and Amax weren't designed for hunting big game.

Expansion is inconsistent and unreliable.

Why use a 223 when a Rem 700 in 308 is a few hundred bucks? Especially with match bullets?

We get all tactical Timmy with our 9mm pistol carry bullet, then hunt deer with target bullets. Someone want to help me understand?

Practice you're heart out with your AR. But hunt with a real hunting rifle. You owe it to the game.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

[TGS]

Parting thought for me ...

Match bullets are typically not game bullets. OTM and Amax weren't designed for hunting big game.

Expansion is inconsistent and unreliable.

Why use a 223 when a Rem 700 in 308 is a few hundred bucks? Especially with match bullets?

We get all tactical Timmy with our 9mm pistol carry bullet, then hunt deer with target bullets. Someone want to help me understand?

Practice you're heart out with your AR. But hunt with a real hunting rifle. You owe it to the game.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

Well, the real world experience of those here seems to contradict you that these are inappropriate loads. It jives with experiences I've read about hunters using properly selected bullets in 223 on other forums, as well. As for your earlier comments about 270, well......that's interesting, because equivalents to 270 have been used the world over for a hundred years on large (and dangerous) game. 6.5 Swede comes to mind. It will kill anything that a 30-06 or 300WM will.

As for OTM's having inconsistent and unreliable expansion, well, they're not suppose to expand like a JSP. They fragment and tumble. And they do so magnificently.....not just based on the experiences of hunters using them, but also from the experiences of military shooting bad guys.

[JHC]

OTM - especially up close with the velocity ticking along. Dead fast is dead fast. Archery with the vastly more variable precision of an arrow to stab the deer is legit but shredding its heart and lungs with a 5.56 round is not? I've never seen the logic in that.

The deer taken with the 68 grain BH OTM was hit broadside at about 20 yards. It's the one the ran into the tree. In field dressing both lungs were scrapped out like so much pink scrambled eggs. And the heart was splayed open into thick ribbons like petals blooming out. It was jaw dropping.

[JHC]

We get all tactical Timmy with our 9mm pistol carry bullet, then hunt deer with target bullets. Someone want to help me understand?



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The target bullets referenced are like the military's Mk262 loading. Like as in almost identical loadings.

[BLR]

Yep. I'm aware.

Can you? Sure.

My experiments with bthp bullets have demonstrated wildly inconsistent terminal performance. Especially when bone is involved. 77 gr Match kings aren't renound game bullets regardless of what DoD uses.

I like hunting big game with big game rounds and hunting bullets.

I wish I used a lighter round. Said no serious hunter. Ever.








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[223AI]

Yep. I'm aware.

Can you? Sure.

My experiments with bthp bullets have demonstrated wildly inconsistent terminal performance. Especially when bone is involved. 77 gr Match kings aren't renound game bullets regardless of what DoD uses.

I like hunting big game with big game rounds and hunting bullets.

I wish I used a lighter round. Said no serious hunter. Ever.








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I'd be interested to know what experiments you have done with match grade bullets and terminal performance? How many deer have you taken with a properly loaded and placed 223? How many animals with a 75 amax?

Here is the real world data at 200 yards with my rifles (Bolt guns), assuming a 10 mph 3:00 wind:

223ai (20" Brux 8 twist, suppresed)/75 amax/2950fps/2000 DA - .4 mils elevation, .1 mils wind, 1070 ft-lbs on target, 2533 fps.
223ai (20" Brux 8 twist, suppresed)/75 SS2/2900 (weird bearing surface gives more pressure early) - .5 elevation, .1wind, 990 ft-lbs on target, 2437 fps.
223 (26" Brux 6.5 twist, unsupressed)/75 amax/2850fps/2000 DA - .5 elevation, .1 wind, 993 ft-lbs on target, 2442 fps

I guess I'm just not seeing, based on real world experience and performance, that the .223 is bad with deer or hogs...the data just doesn't add up. I dropped a trotting 90lb sow last spring at 185 (verified with a terrapin LRF) with 82 bergers at 2910 out of my 223 bolt gun. Broke her shoulders, and she dropped instantly. That's because I put the bullet in the right place and I practice a lot so that I *can* be able to do that.

Jacob Bynum (Rifles Only) has a great article regarding the importance of shot placement over bullet (hence my "cheaper to practice" comment)...he hunts with a 175 SMK in an AIAX, and he does quite well with a match grade bullet.

I guess my overall point is this: Shot placement trumps everything, including caliber/bullet arguments.

...you may now proceed with call those that disagree with you, and provide the data with which to back it up, "Tactical Timmies".

[DocGKR]

SMK's rifle projectiles while quite accurate, are indeed extremely variable in their performance and are not my first or even second choice for hunting at ranges under 300 yds: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4345-LE-308-Loads

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/SMKvariability.jpg

[TGS]

You referenced 308, Doc. The conversation was about 223/5.56......so, does the same apply to the smaller caliber line of SMK? What about other OTM designs, like the TAP?

[BLR]

I'd be interested to know what experiments you have done with match grade bullets and terminal performance? How many deer have you taken with a properly loaded and placed 223? How many animals with a 75 amax?

...you may now proceed with call those that disagree with you, and provide the data with which to back it up, "Tactical Timmies".

Deer - none. Hogs - shot 6 150ish lb hogs, all head shots. Witnessed 22 more. 77gr SMK didn't make it thru the shoulder plate on one, left a ugly wound, animal suffered. Was enough for me. I don't like seeing animals suffer. At all. End of story. Any good, true, hunting bullet would have done the job.

My experiments - You'll note my signature line. I, for a period, stopped posting on this forum because I could not disclose my industry work due to NDAs. Same holds true now. There are half a dozen or people or so on this forum whose opinion about me I care about. Most of them know my background. If you believe I'm shooting up water jugs, cool. I won't disagree.

The "tactical timmies" quote - I said "we" concerning 9mm ammunition selection, not concerning the use of 223 for deer or those who disagree with me. In other words, I stated that we, as a community, go through pains in selecting top performers for our carry rounds, then throw that mindset right out the window for hunting rounds. That does not make sense. Though I will point out you do not cite pertinent "data." You cite ballistics at the muzzle. Not terminal yaw data (entrance angle, velocity, etc), not statistical performance in ballistic gel, no expansion characteristics...nothing. Not even a simple comparison of jacket thickness and hardness with a true hunting bullet. Just muzzle velocity from your rifles.

Fact of the matter is that match bullets, including SMK, AMAX, Bergers, and so on, were designed for concentricity and BC. They were designed for accuracy, not terminal performance. They are not BG bullets. The 223 is not a BG round.

JHC is doing well because he is doing the intelligent, ethical thing - taking responsible shots.

[223AI]

Deer - none. Hogs - shot 6 150ish lb hogs, all head shots. Witnessed 22 more. 77gr SMK didn't make it thru the shoulder plate on one, left a ugly wound, animal suffered. Was enough for me. I don't like seeing animals suffer. At all. End of story. Any good, true, hunting bullet would have done the job.

My experiments - You'll note my signature line. I, for a period, stopped posting on this forum because I could not disclose my industry work due to NDAs. Same holds true now. There are half a dozen or people or so on this forum whose opinion about me I care about. Most of them know my background. If you believe I'm shooting up water jugs, cool. I won't disagree.

The "tactical timmies" quote - I said "we" concerning 9mm ammunition selection, not concerning the use of 223 for deer or those who disagree with me. In other words, I stated that we, as a community, go through pains in selecting top performers for our carry rounds, then throw that mindset right out the window for hunting rounds. That does not make sense. Though I will point out you do not cite pertinent "data." You cite ballistics at the muzzle. Not terminal yaw data (entrance angle, velocity, etc), not statistical performance in ballistic gel, no expansion characteristics...nothing. Not even a simple comparison of jacket thickness and hardness with a true hunting bullet. Just muzzle velocity from your rifles.

Fact of the matter is that match bullets, including SMK, AMAX, Bergers, and so on, were designed for concentricity and BC. They were designed for accuracy, not terminal performance. They are not BG bullets. The 223 is not a BG round.

JHC is doing well because he is doing the intelligent, ethical thing - taking responsible shots.


While I don't believe that you are shooting water jugs, I certainly believe that this is an excellent response. Seriously. More importantly, I would really be interested in your testing results...not on bad guys, but on game. I also understand your NDAs, and deal with them in my line of work as well. While I disagree your take on 223/match bullets for hunting, you've most definitely given good data to back it up. I concede that I only have ancedotal evidence, but it's worked well for me in the field. By the way, if you read those figures, then you'd see that those are actually calculated numbers on target...utilizing Bryan Litz's G7 data, not just muzzle velocity. I did not cite yaw data, because I don't have a way to measure it on once living animals. I don't have expansion characteristics because (other than TSX bullets) they either pushed right through (75 SS2), or blew up like an explosive and dumped all of their energy in the animal, breaking bones along the way (75 amax/82 bergers).

Also, to be clear, are you considering head/neck/high shoulder shots unethical?

Regardless, the important thing about this is that we are all out there actually shooting...too many spend their time becoming internet experts, rather than piling primers and experiencing it for themselves. Best of luck.

JP

[DocGKR]

SMK's are more inconsistent in their terminal performance than other bullets in many calibers, including .223 and .308; perhaps that is why Sierra recommends against their use for hunting and LE purposes.

[JHC]

The 60 grain Nosler Partition was most impressive to me all around.

[ST911]

Depending on herd size, management plans, and crashes in a given year I can expect to shoot deer consistently enough that I carry rounds to try out and later recover from carcasses. Over the years, I've shot deer of various sizes with different weights and bullet constructions. There are no surprises. Heavier, deeper penetrating rounds with structural integrity in expansion do best. The 60gr Nosler Partition, Barnes coppers, Speer GDSPs are GTG in my experience. Others including the OTM/HPs and varmint rounds can work, but are more heavily reliant upon optimal shot placement.

I defer to others on hog hunting. Friends shooting cougars/mountain lions with .223 report the same as above.

[Haraise]

223Al, do you realize you're effectively saying that your Prius goes around a race track just fine to two NASCAR specialists who are telling you it's not the best vehicle? Then responding with 'well, what really matters is how you steer and use the gas.'

[Chuck Haggard]

Depending on herd size, management plans, and crashes in a given year I can expect to shoot deer consistently enough that I carry rounds to try out and later recover from carcasses. Over the years, I've shot deer of various sizes with different weights and bullet constructions. There are no surprises. Heavier, deeper penetrating rounds with structural integrity in expansion do best. The 60gr Nosler Partition, Barnes coppers, Speer GDSPs are GTG in my experience. Others including the OTM/HPs and varmint rounds can work, but are more heavily reliant upon optimal shot placement.


I also do this, and I have found the same thing.

I've also noticed with JHP bullets from handguns that deer hair/hide seems to suppress expansion much like, maybe even worse than, denim does.

[JHC]

223Al, do you realize you're effectively saying that your Prius goes around a race track just fine to two NASCAR specialists who are telling you it's not the best vehicle? Then responding with 'well, what really matters is how you steer and use the gas.'

Wow. Seriously? Whitetail are thin skinned medium game for crissakes. Nothing at all like the cape buffalo. :D

Yeah I know Jeff Cooper would turn over in his grave over the poodle shooter being used for whitetail but that was then.

If the hunter is up to it, .223 works better than any arrow ever launched.

[JHC]

I also do this, and I have found the same thing.

I've also noticed with JHP bullets from handguns that deer hair/hide seems to suppress expansion much like, maybe even worse than, denim does.

THAT's interesting. I have on occasion put a round or two from my pistols into a just killed deer just to recover the slug and check it. 9mm Gold Dot vanished into the Earth below the deer and I gave up digging.

[Chuck Haggard]

Deer are rather thin from side-to-side straight through the lungs, but I have noted the total failure of various pistol bullets to expand several times on deer. I've put even very fragile bullets straight through large deer when I hit them sideways, stuff like 60gr TAP, 55gr Federal TRU SPs, etc. Those mushroom/fragment of course, but they still exit violently.

I put a .38 Critical Defense +p through a big doe last winter, .36cal hole in through a rib, .36cal hole out through another rib, small straight wound track, looked like I had put the deer in a drill press and just drilled a hole straight through. Bullet was into the soft forest dirt so deep I couldn't find it.

[Haraise]

Wow. Seriously? Whitetail are thin skinned medium game for crissakes. Nothing at all like the cape buffalo. :D

Yeah I know Jeff Cooper would turn over in his grave over the poodle shooter being used for whitetail but that was then.

If the hunter is up to it, .223 works better than any arrow ever launched.

You've inferred beliefs which are rather amusingly directly the opposite of what's true.

Ascribing me to antiquated beliefs actually made me laugh out loud here.

Anyway. I'm no fan of 50's, 60's, 70's or even 2000's data.

I am a fan of listening to two experts on terminal ballistics when they both say you're using the wrong thing, though. I believe that if you kill an animal, doing so with a round that has been proven to be erratic at best is unethical.

[BLR]

The point is this, again, there are better deer rounds than a 223. It is impossible to argue that it is a "good" deer round. It lacks the power, bullets, and performance to be a "good" deer round. So far, no one has given a reasonably thought out justification as to why to use it other than "I want to." I won't stand in your way.

If you want a "good" deer round, they start with the 6mms. Many, many deer have been taken with 17s and 22s. That doesn't make them "good." A good, clean kill (or at least the best odds for that) is what you should be striving for.

Target bullets are not hunting bullets. Don't believe me? Call up Sierra and ask if the 77 SMK is a hunting bullet. It was designed for accuracy and accuracy alone. Even if the US mil dudes use it, it was around a long time before they picked it up. The 77 was designed for High Power comp. Not hunting. Not snipering. Not mall security. Not anything but punching paper. Under the right circumstances, it does an acceptable job of killing deer and jihadists. That. Does. Not. Make. It. A. Good. Choice. In fact, call up Hornady and ask if they recommend their AMAX for anything other than paper. Yes, shot placement is the most important thing, but it definitely is not the only thing. You need to ensure the bullet gets to its destination. Target bullets are designed and built without that purpose in mind. Simple as that.

If you want to hunt deer with your AR, cool. I'm not the deers mommy. That's between you and the deer and your conscience. I've wounded an animal, I don't want to increase my odds of doing it again by being irresponsible with cartridge/bullet selection.

[JHC]

The point is this, again, there are better deer rounds than a 223. It is impossible to argue that it is a "good" deer round. It lacks the power, bullets, and performance to be a "good" deer round. So far, no one has given a reasonably thought out justification as to why to use it other than "I want to." I won't stand in your way.

If you want a "good" deer round, they start with the 6mms. Many, many deer have been taken with 17s and 22s. That doesn't make them "good." A good, clean kill (or at least the best odds for that) is what you should be striving for.

Target bullets are not hunting bullets. Don't believe me? Call up Sierra and ask if the 77 SMK is a hunting bullet. It was designed for accuracy and accuracy alone. Even if the US mil dudes use it, it was around a long time before they picked it up. The 77 was designed for High Power comp. Not hunting. Not snipering. Not mall security. Not anything but punching paper. Under the right circumstances, it does an acceptable job of killing deer and jihadists. That. Does. Not. Make. It. A. Good. Choice. In fact, call up Hornady and ask if they recommend their AMAX for anything other than paper. Yes, shot placement is the most important thing, but it definitely is not the only thing. You need to ensure the bullet gets to its destination. Target bullets are designed and built without that purpose in mind. Simple as that.

If you want to hunt deer with your AR, cool. I'm not the deers mommy. That's between you and the deer and your conscience. I've wounded an animal, I don't want to increase my odds of doing it again by being irresponsible with cartridge/bullet selection.

I don't care. The 77 grain Black Hills load I used, at the ranges I used them at killed in spectacular fashion. (Doc, I assume BH used the SMK. In the 68 gr I think they were Hornady. I've hunted with 75 grain TAP but never shot anything with it.)

But I'm not wedded to OTM. I used them when they were "the thing". Then I tried the Nosler. Awesome load. Then the Barnes. Got some of this new Razorback bullet built for hogs. Will try those if I don't find some of these from the OP.

So beyond killing lung/heart shot deer dead within 40 yards of impact, what makes a good deer rifle? Exit wounds or blood trails? Check, I could follow my short trails by the blood blowing out their noses. You and I have settled this really. You know what I'm talking about. My hits are guaranteed in the boiler room or I didn't take the shot.

And what about archery I keep alluding too. If you think the .223 is unethical; are you similarly opposed to all bow hunting of deer? Or do you argue that the arrow is a more reliable killer? The risk of a bad hit is astronomically greater which will lead to a lost deer and you know that happens a lot.

[JHC]

You've inferred beliefs which are rather amusingly directly the opposite of what's true.

Ascribing me to antiquated beliefs actually made me laugh out loud here.

Anyway. I'm no fan of 50's, 60's, 70's or even 2000's data.

I am a fan of listening to two experts on terminal ballistics when they both say you're using the wrong thing, though. I believe that if you kill an animal, doing so with a round that has been proven to be erratic at best is unethical.

AT BEST!!! I'm sure it must be actually worse then. Probably criminal. Except for state law.

I don't mean to ascribe antiquated beliefs. Your analogy was so "zany" considering the huge amount of deer hunting experience with .223s (including a LOT of use of those fragmenting target bullets) that I lost myself in the post. I take it back.

[JHC]

Now if Molon will run some 10 round group analysis on this new 55 grain GMX pill . . .

I have not seen stellar 5 shot 100 yard groups from 60 gr Nosler or the 55 grain Barnes load. But good for my under 100 yards woods hunting.

[Molon]

Now if Molon will run some 10 round group analysis on this new 55 grain GMX pill . . .




From page 1 of this thread . . .:cool:


https://app.box.com/shared/static/qc126cyrw73wtfbt025k.jpg



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[JHC]

From page 1 of this thread . . .:cool:


https://app.box.com/shared/static/qc126cyrw73wtfbt025k.jpg



....

Yeah thanks. I was on my way to delete edit that. :o

[BLR]

I don't care. The 77 grain Black Hills load I used, at the ranges I used them at killed in spectacular fashion. (Doc, I assume BH used the SMK. In the 68 gr I think they were Hornady. I've hunted with 75 grain TAP but never shot anything with it.)

But I'm not wedded to OTM. I used them when they were "the thing". Then I tried the Nosler. Awesome load. Then the Barnes. Got some of this new Razorback bullet built for hogs. Will try those if I don't find some of these from the OP.

So beyond killing lung/heart shot deer dead within 40 yards of impact, what makes a good deer rifle? Exit wounds or blood trails? Check, I could follow my short trails by the blood blowing out their noses. You and I have settled this really. You know what I'm talking about. My hits are guaranteed in the boiler room or I didn't take the shot.

And what about archery I keep alluding too. If you think the .223 is unethical; are you similarly opposed to all bow hunting of deer? Or do you argue that the arrow is a more reliable killer? The risk of a bad hit is astronomically greater which will lead to a lost deer and you know that happens a lot.

As I said earlier, I am not opposed to the way you are hunting deer with your 223. You are obviously obtaining clean kills. I said that already. You combine shot placement, calm deer, and heavy for caliber bullets. You are, whether you want to admit it or not, taking a chance with the target bullets. You are assuming they will track true after striking the deer. I am, as I said earlier, saying the 223 with target bullets is not a good combination.

Open tip match bullets are longitudinally poorly stable. Sometimes the fly apart. Sometimes they don't open up and go straight through. Sometimes they yaw then break up. Sometimes they strike bone and disintegrate. Predicting that is impossible.

Now, take a 150gr partition from a 308. I can tell you with a more than acceptable margin of error the bullet will preform as expected on game.

That is the point I keep trying to make. I do not see why that is such a difficult concept. People text and drive all the time and get away with it. Does that make it a good practice? You can ask "how many times have you done it?" and it still won't make it a good practice.

Good hunting bullets will typically penetrate through, even when striking moderate bone. They are typically soft point, though the polymer tip bullets work very well. They typically are bonded and/or have progressive jacket thickness to help with retained weight (and thus more predictable terminal performance/path). They are designed to expand.

Fact of the matter, whether you care or not, you are shooting living animals with bullets that are not designed to expand. They are designed to be accurate. Why not match the bullet/round to the game? Why not use a "full size" deer cartridge?

As for bowhunting. I've logged piles of hours in a deer stand with my Diamond. I've killed 2 deer that way. And passed on dozens because I couldn't be sure. We are on the same page.

So, brother, we really are on the same page. FWIW, I have several boxes of the hog load you mentioned. Those are interesting. Though, I will note, they are hunting bullets, not match bullets.

[JHC]

I know Bill, I'm digging the kittens out of the discussion and I appreciate your participation. It's great multi-tasking watching the Braves.

I don't have a reason to use OTMs with my various new purpose built options, but I want to put something out for Doc's opinion if he hazards to offer one. The mil chose the 77 gr SMK in the Mk262 for accuracy and improved wounding. Maybe just most of the time. Lots of reports from live target use have suggested it was pretty decent. Some knowledgeable folk have offered that it's terminal effects took some steam out of the 6.8. True or myth?

But - to the extent the OTM is inconsistent in gel tests - I betcha its a lot less inconsistent in game because the game isn't a homogenous medium. It clips a rib or shoulder and that thing is fragmenting. ???

The larger point is The .223 has gone mainstream for deer. That's why so many companies are producing hunting bullets for it. http://americanhunter.org/blogs/223-for-deer-hunting/ It's not a weird niche anymore.

The three deer I've dissected from similar close range .308 kills had damage off the damn chart. Probably hundreds of bone fragments large to snowflake size spread out all over the place. Struck me as overkill frankly. I thought the 30-30 wound channels pretty optimal. Nice 1.5" or so hole bored through and through. No tooth pick bone frags all over the place. That's pretty much what the Federal 55 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw did through a large buck's lungs. Except it broke TWO ribs at the entrance wound. That's kinda crazy.

Lemee see, one 30-30 kill was straight on into the throat back into the chest - he fell in his rear hoove tracks. One shot through the lungs ran about 40 yards and fell. One double lung'd dropped in her tracks. And her mother, who took a couple bounds then paused to look back to see if her yearly was following got a 150 grain Core Lokt through both shoulders. She took off. I found her at least 75 yards away. How she got so far with both shoulders broken and a good bit of lung damage I don't know. But she had a dose of adrenalin.

[Haraise]

AT BEST!!! I'm sure it must be actually worse then. Probably criminal. Except for state law.

I don't mean to ascribe antiquated beliefs. Your analogy was so "zany" considering the huge amount of deer hunting experience with .223s (including a LOT of use of those fragmenting target bullets) that I lost myself in the post. I take it back.

No, at best modifies what came before, not after.

Erratic at best.

In order to use the statement on unethical, there'd need to be something like 'is, at best, unethical. '

[JHC]

No, at best modifies what came before, not after.

Erratic at best.

In order to use the statement on unethical, there'd need to be something like 'is, at best, unethical. '

Of course. I knew that. Testing. ;)

[littlejerry]

For the record, I have had excellent results with Federal Fusion/Speer Gold Dot 64 grain bonded SPs on GA deer. My shots have been unobstructed and under 100 yards. Excellent penetration, no unnecessary damage, and no lost deer.

As long as quality soft points are available in .223 I'll continue to use it.

[DocGKR]

JHC--the linked article is very good and well worth the read; I agree with the recommendations of using .223 on med game like deer: Keep shots under 150 yds, ensure careful shot placement like when bow hunting, use quality robust expanding barrier blind bullets with good weight retention--55 or 62 TBBC, 64 gr Nosler Bonded, 62 or 70 gr TSX, 64 gr Gold Dot/62 gr Fusion, 62 gr Remington CLUB, 60 gr Nosler Partition are all great choices.

I do NOT like fragmenting bullets for hunting deer or other animals harvested to eat--picking metal out of meat is no fun and is NOT good for teeth; save the fragmenting loads for varmints. I personally would not willingly choose to hunt with FMJ or OTM if other better alternatives are available, as noted above.

77 gr Mk262 was developed for the Mk12 from match loads used by the service shooting teams. Mk262 was available before 6.8 mm was developed and had nothing to do with 6.8 mm antipathy. Keep in mind that when Mk262 was developed, some lots of M855 were shooting 5-6 MOA; it is a whole lot easier to hit a target with a 1 MOA load vs. a 5-6 MOA one when shooting at longer ranges. Mk262 in no way compares with 6.8 mm terminal performance, especially when barriers are involved:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/556_68AKmag.jpg

As I noted above, I much prefer 6.8 mm when hunting using an AR15.

[JHC]

Thanks Doc! This morning I zeroed a TA33 on my N4 Recce hunting rig with Remington Hog Hammer which is a 62 grain TSX. Ready to go!

Littlejerry just reminded me I've got some of that Fusion load around here also. Lots of good choices. I don't think I will get to this GMX load this season after all.

[Sparks2112]

Bill, I'm going to withhold judgement on whether or not I'll be taking my sbr deer hunting this year until I see what those GDSP's do to some of your yotes. Think we can scare any up with Sean?