18 rounds from 5 yards - 9 hits , mostly lower body

[MTechnik]

“He pointed it at them and refused direct orders to drop it,” he added.

Three officers fired 18 rounds from about 15 feet away. Mr. Balde sustained nine wounds to his groin, forearm and foot. He was in critical but stable condition at Lincoln Medical and Mental Health Center on Friday afternoon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/nyregion/police-in-bronx-shoot-man-holding-fake-gun.html

How do you hit the foot from 5 yards away?

(and if my kids ever get toy guns, they will look like nerf gun, blobby and orange)

[ToddG]

I think I've told this story here before, but...

When I worked at the US Attorney's Office, my section chief was a retired cop. Years earlier, he and a partner were waiting for an elevator on their way upstairs to arrest someone. The elevator doors opened and who should be there but the suspect. All three people drew their guns (all snubby revolvers) and all three emptied them. Somewhere between 15 and 18 shots were fired inside the elevator. No one was hurt.

[TCinVA]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/nyregion/police-in-bronx-shoot-man-holding-fake-gun.html

How do you hit the foot from 5 yards away?

(and if my kids ever get toy guns, they will look like nerf gun, blobby and orange)

People often dramatically underestimate the difficulty of making solid hits under the stress of a fight. Where you draw the line of "good enough" in training has a significant impact on the kind of delivery you're going to get when it's the real thing.

Unfortunately most police firearms programs are essentially geared at getting people minimally qualified to handle a firearm...they simply aren't designed to produce true proficiency. Throw that in on top of the difficulties of hitting a human target that is trying desperately not to be hit and you can see why hits to odd places and outright misses happen.

[Tamara]

Not to harp on the theme, but...

I once saw video from a c-store shootout in ATL. Both clerk and perp produced large autos, either Berettas or Tauri, and proceeded to bob, duck, and weave while emptying them at each other from across the counter. Apparently, the good guy got gutterballs except for one shot that winged the robber in the upper arm, and the bad guy went 0-for-15. From no more than double arm's length away.

[rsa-otc]

(and if my kids ever get toy guns, they will look like nerf gun, blobby and orange)

Unfortunately that probably won't help. I have in my office a bulletin from the Baltimore PD showing a 870 shotgun hidden in a super soaker water gun that they took off some hood. Most LEOs I talk to now a days have told me that if someone points what looks like it may be a gun at them and that person fails to obey commands they will respond with lethal force. Orange rings on the muzzle.or looking like it could be a toy be dammed. To many officers have seriously injured or killed with what looked to be a toy for them to take a chance.

Unfortunately it's what our world has come to.

[DocGKR]

Mossberg 12 ga in Power Soaker:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SuperSoakerShotgun1.jpg

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/SuperSoakerShotgun2.jpg

[David]

To many officers have seriously injured or killed with what looked to be a toy for them to take a chance.

Then the average everyday joe should have the same "right" to make such judgment calls, the life of a a LEO is not a bit more important than the life of a non LEO.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of the most entertaining calls I had ever worked was two gang-bangers who got into it with some average Joe who was too SAOAFR to realize these guys meant business about who gets to use the open gas pump first.

Both bangers whip out the jammies and start flak blasting at Joe from just a few feet away. In shock, Joe just stands there and gets a minimal gunshot graze to the arm. Funny part was that bad guy #1 also shot bad guy #2 in the leg, all while they were abreast of each other and shooting at Joe.

Bad guy #1 had just gotten out of prison, where he had gone for a weapons violation ref an incident where he was trying to do a drive by on a rival gang member and shot his own girlfriend instead, she was driving the car at the time of said drive-by.

You can't make this stuff up.

[Chuck Haggard]

Then the average everyday joe should have the same "right" to make such judgment calls, the life of a a LEO is not a bit more important than the life of a non LEO.

They do, who said otherwise?

[MTechnik]

Wow, that shotgun hidden in a nerf gun, and the implications it carries for how nerf guns need to be handled is eye-opening.

And these are some great stories from everyone. Not sure how two guys can hit eachother standing abreast of each other, but I imagine they have the worst grip in the world.

[David]

They do, who said otherwise?

The LEO(s) quoted in this post by rsa-otc:

"Most LEOs I talk to now a days have told me that if someone points what looks like it may be a gun at them and that person fails to obey commands they will respond with lethal force. Orange rings on the muzzle. Or looking like it could be a toy be dammed."

Let the average none LEO try defending "He pointed a bright orange toy looking gun at me and I told him to put it down but he didn't so I killed him".

[TCinVA]

Then the average everyday joe should have the same "right" to make such judgment calls, the life of a a LEO is not a bit more important than the life of a non LEO.

Let's just stop that train here and now. We're not going to have the Romper Room descend into LE vs. non-LE bickering that sours lots of other gun boards. Being a hard case isn't generally my style, but I will come down on that sort of thing with the iron fist of Stalin.

[David]

Let's just stop that train here and now. We're not going to have the Romper Room descend into LE vs. non-LE bickering that sours lots of other gun boards. Being a hard case isn't generally my style, but I will come down on that sort of thing with the iron fist of Stalin.

[snarky response to a Staff member deleted]

[TGS]

Let's just stop that train here and now. We're not going to have the Romper Room descend into LE vs. non-LE bickering that sours lots of other gun boards. Being a hard case isn't generally my style, but I will come down on that sort of thing with the iron fist of Stalin.

With emphasis on, "with the iron fist of Stalin" I hereby request that TCinVA's status be changed from "Staff" to "Reeducation Commissar"!

[JDM]

Let's just stop that train here and now. We're not going to have the Romper Room descend into LE vs. non-LE bickering that sours lots of other gun boards. Being a hard case isn't generally my style, but I will come down on that sort of thing with the iron fist of Stalin.

Good. The last thing this place needs is that nonsense.

[ToddG]

Do not devolve this thread into a discussion of Staff moderation decisions, please. Get back on topic.

[MDS]

To get (closer to being) back on topic, I'm getting hit with a very censored annoying consequence of the horrible marksmanship that is apparently typical everywhere. The rotation feature of the targets at my favorite local range may never be enabled, because people insist on shooting the target's rotation mechanism. :mad:

How hard is it to not shoot the friggin' ceiling? Probably about as hard as not shooting your gang-buddy standing next to you. My accuracy standard has gotten a lot more strict in the last 6-8 months, since I started "getting serious" about shooting. But I'm pretty sure I never shot the friggin' ceiling...

[Tamara]

How hard is it to not shoot the friggin' ceiling? Probably about as hard as not shooting your gang-buddy standing next to you. My accuracy standard has gotten a lot more strict in the last 6-8 months, since I started "getting serious" about shooting. But I'm pretty sure I never shot the friggin' ceiling...

At pretty much any indoor range, there will be the occasional hole in the lane dividers, or the trays, or whatever, that you can generally attribute to somebody getting sloppy and having an ND during administrative handling.

But get out about three yards and the floor, walls, and ceiling will be peppered with bullet strikes from people who don't know how to shoot trying to go cyclic with their pistols like they saw in a movie or a YouTube video.

(If I was alone on the sales floor and heard that noise coming from the range, I could hardly resist yelling "Miss faster!" And, yes, we'd have to re-string at least one carrier a day.)

[SecondsCount]

The local indoor range has bullet scuff marks all over the floor, and ceiling plates, from people that can't shoot straight. I was RO'ing for a group this weekend and at 30 feet one of the shooters kept hitting the target stand. The target stand is pretty tough, made of 2" x 1/4" angle, but the opening is 2' x 3'. :rolleyes:

He was shooting a Gen4 G19 and while the gun ran great, he needed some work. I made an attempt at improving his grip, he tried it for one shot, then went back to his old ways. At the end we did some walk back drills just for fun and he must have realized how bad his accuracy was because he wouldn't join us.

[mpd046]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/23/nyregion/police-in-bronx-shoot-man-holding-fake-gun.html

How do you hit the foot from 5 yards away?

(and if my kids ever get toy guns, they will look like nerf gun, blobby and orange)

I see this sometimes during force on force training. The good guy gets excited, and focuses solely on the threat in front of him. While he or she is looking over their sights, their also trying to slap the trigger as fast as they can. It results in rounds going in strange places. Weird things happen when people get extremely stressed.

Matt

[NGCSUGrad09]

I've seen guys setup B27 targets and miss an entire magazine of ammo at 3-4 yards. In addition to totally missing, I'm convinced their logic concluded that the faster they fired the better chance they had to hit.. Spend enough time at a range and it's amazing what you see.