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Prdator
04-22-2011, 08:27 AM
Guy's

I just found this quote from a AAR on the Rogers Shooting school.

"Bill Rogers shot a Gen4 G17 during Monday's training. He had some brass hitting him in the face, turns out he ejector angle was wrong, once it was bent to the proper angle it worked fine''.

I know that on one of my Gen 4 17's, the Trigger housing block has been updated and it looks like the Ejector angle has been changed some. The AAR above was written on 5,10 so that is close to the time I got this gen4 ( PFExxx) SN#.
Im going to compare the two Gen 4 17's and see if a simple bend might fix it.....

Thought I'd post this here and see your thoughts.

JV_
04-22-2011, 08:29 AM
I tried tweaking the one in my 19, without success. I wouldn't mind knowing how he tweaked it (direction).

ToddG
04-22-2011, 11:04 AM
I can't go into details and honestly I don't know a lot of specifics, but there are a few folks looking at the ejector as the next necessary tweak to the 9mm gen4 Glocks.

GJM
04-22-2011, 11:41 AM
The Rogers School is using mostly Gen 4 Glock 17's as school guns, and last week, Bill Rogers said that they needed to modify the ejectors to make them run.

Prdator
04-22-2011, 12:53 PM
working on it.

Prdator
04-22-2011, 12:58 PM
I can't go into details and honestly I don't know a lot of specifics, but there are a few folks looking at the ejector as the next necessary tweak to the 9mm gen4 Glocks.

There is defiantly a deference in the old Gen 4 (PFExxx) and the new one, (PMRxxx) The ejector has the same part number in my Gen 4's and Gen 3's, but the one in the early gen4 looks a bit different.

It stands to reason that Extraction and Ejection go hand in hand to make the gun run.

JV_
04-22-2011, 01:00 PM
I wonder how much of this is tied to slide velocity issues because of the new spring system?

I have a PWT and a PPZ (G4 19), both have 336 ejectors and look pretty identical (to my eyes).

HeadHunter
04-22-2011, 01:04 PM
A second hand report, from a reliable source, that I received was that Bill had flattened by filing/stoning the face of the ejector because it was "bumpy." I will attempt to talk with him this weekend to get a first hand account but he's busy right now.

JV_
04-22-2011, 01:07 PM
Thanks, I appreciate that. I have noticed the uneven surface. It's definitely not flat, but none of my Glock ejectors are ... I have 5.

ToddG
04-22-2011, 01:12 PM
The mod being tried is extremely minor. From what I have been told, it has "fixed" guns even with the original heavy recoil spring assembly.

JV_
04-22-2011, 01:18 PM
The mod being tried is extremely minor. From what I have been told, it has "fixed" guns even with the original heavy recoil spring assembly.

Is this some clueful person tinkering ... or someone like Apex who intends to release a custom part?

fuse
04-22-2011, 01:24 PM
Knew we'd get some answers

ToddG
04-22-2011, 09:53 PM
Is this some clueful person tinkering ... or someone like Apex who intends to release a custom part?

No. :cool:

Savage Hands
04-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Is this some clueful person tinkering ... or someone like Apex who intends to release a custom part?


Probably not Apex, maybe Glockworx :)

Chuck Haggard
04-22-2011, 11:51 PM
I'm very interested in hearing about what this is.

My gen 3 G19 just started shitting the bed on me, reliable for over a 1000 rounds, four stovepipes in the past week with three different kinds of ammo, and it's also started dropping brass on my head, down my neck, etc. Gun was 100% till now and then just went to hell all of a sudden.

JHC
04-23-2011, 08:49 AM
I'm very interested in hearing about what this is.

My gen 3 G19 just started shitting the bed on me, reliable for over a 1000 rounds, four stovepipes in the past week with three different kinds of ammo, and it's also started dropping brass on my head, down my neck, etc. Gun was 100% till now and then just went to hell all of a sudden.

Do you know year of manufacture? Seems I recall yours are a few years old and not the suspect 2010s with extractors shared with Gen 4 production. Lots of miles on the springs or no?
Matt E ran into this with a long reliable G19 last year and a free "inspect and upgrade" at Glock returned it to its old self.

LittleLebowski
04-23-2011, 09:08 AM
The mod being tried is extremely minor. From what I have been told, it has "fixed" guns even with the original heavy recoil spring assembly.

Fixed completely or fixed ejection pattern?

Texcowboy
04-23-2011, 10:02 AM
My GEN 4 G17 has the 'PMS' prefix for the serial number, test fired 2/21/11, no problems with extraction or anything else. A great handgun.

JHC
04-23-2011, 10:05 AM
No. :cool:

I think its the Mothership. :cool:

ToddG
04-23-2011, 10:08 AM
Fixed completely or fixed ejection pattern?

Fixed the ejection-related stoppages.


My GEN 4 G17 has the 'PMS' prefix for the serial number, test fired 2/21/11, no problems with extraction or anything else. A great handgun.

How many rounds through it of what type(s) of ammo?


I think its the Mothership. :cool:

I can neither confirm nor deny... :cool:

Texcowboy
04-23-2011, 10:14 AM
How many rounds through it of what type(s) of ammo?

About 400 rounds so far of WWB 115 gr from Wally World.

Chuck Haggard
04-23-2011, 11:15 AM
Do you know year of manufacture? Seems I recall yours are a few years old and not the suspect 2010s with extractors shared with Gen 4 production. Lots of miles on the springs or no?
Matt E ran into this with a long reliable G19 last year and a free "inspect and upgrade" at Glock returned it to its old self.

This one is an M series gun, I was issued the gun last spring so I was likely from a shipment that we picked up in 2009.


I have 9mms ranging from F to P series both 3rd and 4th gen so I am going to start looking at parts and see if anything visual is different.

I suspect that part of my issue is the spring that runs the extractor feels a bit weaker than it should be.

HeadHunter
04-26-2011, 09:18 AM
I spoke to Bill Rogers last night about this.

His fix is to grind the ejector back .040 and put a 10 degree up angle on it similar to the ejector of the 1911. The tool he uses is a surface grinder so he can precisely control the cut repeatedly since he had numerous guns to fix but it could also be done carefully with a file.

He said this fixed the ejection problems on all the school guns and threw the brass in a fairly predictable pattern.

JV_
04-26-2011, 09:20 AM
His fix is to grind the ejector back .040 and put a 10 degree up angle on it similar to the ejector of the 1911.

Very interesting, thanks!!

Prdator
04-26-2011, 09:44 AM
I spoke to Bill Rogers last night about this.

His fix is to grind the ejector back .040 and put a 10 degree up angle on it similar to the ejector of the 1911. The tool he uses is a surface grinder so he can precisely control the cut repeatedly since he had numerous guns to fix but it could also be done carefully with a file.

He said this fixed the ejection problems on all the school guns and threw the brass in a fairly predictable pattern.



Awesome!!!!! Thanks HH!!

Ill try this on my old Gen 4 17, I'll remove the trigger housing block and measure the length of the Ejector then start filling off material and try my best at the 10 deg up angle. Then put the stock parts back in and see what happens..

Gen 4 Glock = the new 2011.......

JV_
04-26-2011, 09:45 AM
Prdator - When do you plan on testing that setup?

Prdator
04-26-2011, 09:51 AM
Prdator - When do you plan on testing that setup?

As soon as I can get some help ( recovering from Shoulder surgery) My sights should be in today, and Im sure my Lovely bride will help me take my Glock apart :cool:

So maybe I can hit the range latter this week.

This should be a easy mod, a bit of careful filling and keeping a good measurement going with some dial calipers, the 10deg up angle might be a bit though to do though.

Chuck Haggard
04-26-2011, 09:52 AM
"Up angle" ????

Not sure which way that would be.

ToddG
04-26-2011, 09:55 AM
http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/demotivational-posters-up-arrow.jpg

Prdator
04-26-2011, 10:12 AM
http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/demotivational-posters-up-arrow.jpg



Dude that's just wrong!!!

NGCSUGrad09
04-26-2011, 10:40 AM
Like Todd I may or may not have heard things from well placed people, but can't really comment.

Listen to what Bill Rogers is saying.

bmg
04-26-2011, 12:28 PM
I just want to be 100% clear on the angle of the ejector tip. Looking down at the ejector tip from the top of the pistol, is the angle such that the top of the ejector tip hits the base of the brass, or does the lower edge of the ejector tip hit first? From the 1911 comment I'd assume it's the former. Looking in the ejection port from the right side would show the ejector tip angled like "/", NOT "\". ------/ I guess after typing this I'm pretty clear on which way it should be done.

Prdator
04-26-2011, 02:20 PM
Well with a bad arm and a Universal Glock tuning tool ( Dremel tool:cool:) I managed to cut down my Ejector, I did a pre measurement on it with Dial calipers and then checked it OFTEN!! I used a fine stone wheel and went Very slow!!! Even doing that I took .003 to much off!! I think it will work just fine though.

Just out of curiosity I measured my Gen 4 Glock 35 from the tip of the Ejector to the back of the trigger housing and it was .030 shorter than the Gen4 17!!! So this kinda explains why my G17 slide would run just fine on my G22 frame.... and with the .40 and 9mm sharing the basic same case length, it might give some light on why the .40's are running SO much better than the 9's.

Hope to get this out soon and shoot it, if it works I might ( Might) try the old recoil spring just to see what happens.

JV_
04-26-2011, 04:24 PM
Well with a bad arm and a Universal Glock tuning tool ( Dremel tool:cool:) I managed to cut down my Ejector

Mine is done too, I'll give it a whirl tomorrow night.

dsa
04-26-2011, 05:53 PM
What is the length of the ejector supposed to be? What length are you guys trimming them down to?

SecondsCount
04-26-2011, 06:02 PM
Are we talking about Glocks or 9mm Rock Island Armory 1911s?

It's getting pretty sad when you have to tune the ejector on a modern design. :rolleyes:

JV_
04-26-2011, 06:14 PM
It's getting pretty sadIMO, we're way past sad. The Gen4 9mms have been out for over a year!

Prdator
04-26-2011, 06:31 PM
What is the length of the ejector supposed to be? What length are you guys trimming them down to?

see post 23.

Were taking .040 off the length of the Ejector, we'll see what happens.

LOKNLOD
04-26-2011, 09:12 PM
Well with a bad arm and a Universal Glock tuning tool ( Dremel tool:cool:) I managed to cut down my Ejector, I did a pre measurement on it with Dial calipers and then checked it OFTEN!! I used a fine stone wheel and went Very slow!!! Even doing that I took .003 to much off!! I think it will work just fine though.

Just out of curiosity I measured my Gen 4 Glock 35 from the tip of the Ejector to the back of the trigger housing and it was .030 shorter than the Gen4 17!!! So this kinda explains why my G17 slide would run just fine on my G22 frame.... and with the .40 and 9mm sharing the basic same case length, it might give some light on why the .40's are running SO much better than the 9's.

Hope to get this out soon and shoot it, if it works I might ( Might) try the old recoil spring just to see what happens.

If the 9mm slide ran well on the .40 frame, and we're modifying the 9mm ejector to be similar, is it possible to just install the .40 assembly in the 9mm?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JV_
04-27-2011, 05:44 AM
If the 9mm slide ran well on the .40 frame, and we're modifying the 9mm ejector to be similar, is it possible to just install the .40 assembly in the 9mm?

Doesn't the .40 ejector lack the bend angle? IIRC they are straight.

Prdator
04-27-2011, 07:40 AM
If the 9mm slide ran well on the .40 frame, and we're modifying the 9mm ejector to be similar, is it possible to just install the .40 assembly in the 9mm?

Well you could but the .40 Ejector is Strait and hits the 9mm case a bit far out on the rim. When i tried the 9mm slide on the .40 frame I only ran about 5 mags though it, so it's not a very thorough test.

I just find this whole thing ODD.. and I think it has something to do with the new frame, as even the new recoil springs have not solved all the issues. I believe it is a timing problem and shorting the Ejector gives the more time for the slide to move to the rear before the case hits the Ejector, and the ejection port is open farther. Though in my mind this gives the case Less time to get out of the gun?

JHC
04-27-2011, 08:30 AM
This is extremely interesting and it sounds like new improvements are on the way. I'm curious as to how so many other guns (we have four) run so damn well if it's learned the ejector is too long. If you could see shooting vids of ours, you'll see a very nice arc of the empty cases be they from 115 grain UMC or Blazer 124 grain. How can there be such a variance?

JV_
04-27-2011, 08:36 AM
How can there be such a variance?Slide velocity variations? What is your ejector number?

ToddG
04-27-2011, 11:15 AM
How can there be such a variance?

There are huge variations that come from various tolerances stacking, etc. That's true of any gun. The trick, as a manufacturer, is to make sure your pistol works within the complete range of tolerance limits.

My G17-4 still has its original untouched unmodified ejector and it runs perfectly fine... now. It took changing the recoil spring (from 01 to 021) and changing the extractor (twice) to get it there, though.

Would the original spring with the original extractor work in my gun if I had a modified ejector? No idea. It's certainly possible, though. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that changing the ejector profile will change the ejection pattern, and changing the ejection pattern might just have an effect on the rate at which a gun stovepipes. The lighter spring and new extractor could, conceivably, simply be working harder in a sense, masking the bad ejector.

Or, my gun's issue might have had nothing whatsoever to do with the ejector and it really was an extractor problem all along.

Actually, I said gun's but I should probably say guns'. Both my original G19-4 and my current G17-4 suffered the exact same problem.

JHC
04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Do you suspect that the SF (Short Frame) applied to the 9mm models may have created multiple very tight tolerance windows between all those "moving parts"?

ToddG
04-27-2011, 11:38 AM
Do you suspect that the SF (Short Frame) applied to the 9mm models may have created multiple very tight tolerance windows between all those "moving parts"?

I wouldn't even begin to speculate. A lot of little changes were made for the gen4 guns. Some of those changes carried over to the gen3 guns for the sake of parts commonality and there are reliable reports that the gen3 9mm guns are having more problems than they used to. But the gen4 guns are seeing a noticeably higher rate of failure which means there's more to it than just the parts in common between the two.

Prdator
04-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Well no dice!! with the help of a bud I went though 12 mags ( 17rds each) and on the 12th mag I had two stove pipes... :( Though that is all most 4 times better than it was before as it would not go though 3 mags. SO there was an improvement but not a total fix. And in all honesty I could very well have caused the two as I was pretty tired on that last mag. ( NAh could'nt be me)

The new Gen 4 17 is running just fine so far with no issues.

At this point Ill keep running the new Gen 4 17 and I guess Ill wait for the new trigger housing and see if that fixes the old one, if not it will go back to Glock.


That P30 is looking better all the time.. :o

JHC
04-27-2011, 04:06 PM
.


That P30 is looking better all the time.. :o

I've only 50 rds through one, and I guess it warn't nearly enough cause I just don't "get it". I mean, it was swell and all but . . . ;)

TLG - check. I should not have either (speculated).

JV - you mean I have to take it apart? ;) Will get back to you on that.

JV_
04-27-2011, 06:09 PM
Well no dice!!Yup, same here.

I shot 200 rounds of Federal 124g FMJ.

I had a classic (vertical) stovepipe with the 04 spring and another with the 18# ISMI spring. The ejection pattern was improved, but not perfect. Nothing went to the left of the gun.

It's going back to Glock.


That P30 is looking better all the time.. I tried that, and I just shoot better with the Glock. :(

Prdator
04-27-2011, 07:42 PM
It's going back to Glock.

I tried that, and I just shoot better with the Glock. :(

Let us know what Glock does. Im thinking some how it has to be in the frame??

Yea Im with you on the Glock v P30, as much as I wold like to have one ( really just want a P30-L, LEM) I can buy TWO G17's for the price of a P30,extra mags and holsters to support it. So I've not talked my self into it yet.

JV_
04-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Let us know what Glock does. Im thinking some how it has to be in the frame?? If I was more motivated, I'd swap slides between my Gen 3 and Gen 4 19s, but to be honest ... I'm tired of the parts swapping witch hunt. The gun is now 100% stock, including sights, and will go back on Friday.

Prdator
04-29-2011, 11:06 PM
Just a quick update, my new gen 4 17 has continued to run like a champ!!! about 1500 rounds though it and its 100%, and this is with either slide assembly on it, new or old.

So IMHO, the old one has something wrong with in in the frame or trigger housing,( a new one is on the way). Ill update on it as I get parts in and test it.

Chuck Haggard
05-03-2011, 07:32 PM
I just want to be 100% clear on the angle of the ejector tip. Looking down at the ejector tip from the top of the pistol, is the angle such that the top of the ejector tip hits the base of the brass, or does the lower edge of the ejector tip hit first? From the 1911 comment I'd assume it's the former. Looking in the ejection port from the right side would show the ejector tip angled like "/", NOT "\". ------/ I guess after typing this I'm pretty clear on which way it should be done.

I'm still unclear on which way to angle the tip.


I do have one of those upgraded extractor spring/bearing assemblies coming in the mail, looking forward to seeing how that works.

My 3rd gen G19 started to spontaniously poop the bed on me. I swapped out the spring that powers the extractor and it runs again now, but it's dropping brass on my head like 1 out of 10 rounds. The extractor tension most definately makes a difference to the ejection process.