anatomy of a lounge-around gun

[JodyH]

I think i've finally perfected the "lounge around the house in shorts" gun:
S&W 360 Scandium J-frame.
Bobbed the hammer and gutted the lock.
Apex duty trigger spring kit.
XS tritium front sight.
DeSantis "Clip-Grip" grips.
5 rounds of Cor-Bon DPX .38spcl. JHP.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/20130405_171400_zpsd35b98c8.jpg

[CCT125US]

Very nice. How does the clip grip work as far as tucking? My Dark Star AIWB is great but I need to have the belt snugged up.

[JodyH]

The Clip-Grip works great for what it is.
I'm sitting here with it AIWB and no belt required, grip is tucked in solid.
I wouldn't trust it to remain in place during a full ECQC evolution or street fight without a belt, but for lounging around it's great.

[CCT125US]

Thanks, your post just cost me money.

[JodyH]

Before buying the Clip-Grips I was using a Clip-Draw.
This is a much better setup IMO.
I never did like how close the Clip-Draw was to the cylinder, it also interfered with getting a good trigger finger index.

[JHC]

I looks like a nice grip. I've got an old Barami grip clip for J frames and it carries well but sure isn't much to hold onto. Neat J frame there.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I have the same grips on my old 642-1 now that it is also basically a "lounge-around gun" as you put it. They work well as you said for this type of use. If I had a Raven VG2 for a J-frame I would probably go with CT grips and be even happier, but the Clip Grips work fine and as you said even work without a belt for real laid-back lounging. The Clip Grips also solve the old issue of needing a Tyler T-grip with a Barami. Great product, especially for the dinero IMHO.

[GJM]

I absolutely get the value of a J frame for pocket carry in a NPE situation or as a BUG.

That said, I think carrying a J frame because it is comfortable, when comfort or effort is the only thing preventing you from carrying a real pistol, is a very slippery slope. Even though I have a lot of experience shooting revolvers, mostly big bore ones, I can't thing of any real shooting scenario where I would not feel seriously compromised with a 5 shot J frame.

[JodyH]

If laying on the couch in basketball shorts while "only" carrying a j-frame is a slippery slope... well I'll just have to live in tactical shame.
Maybe if I added a velcro morale patch to my PJ's I can rejoin the cool crowd that keeps a spare gun (and mags of course) in the shower and carries 3 full size guns 25/8/366 because one is none and three is two... or something cool like that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[GJM]

Jody, assuming you actually needed a handgun, is there any scenario where you would think "I sure am glad I have the J frame on today instead of the P2000 or 2000SK?"

[JodyH]

Assuming I needed a gun, I'd be wishing I had something crew served and belt fed.

We're not all steely eyed gunmen who wear 5-stitch instructor belts to bed.
I know it's a tactical faux pas to admit in public (on a gun forum no less) that 10 minutes ago I was laying on the couch wearing nothing but Adidas basketball shorts and a T-shirt while listening to a podcast on my phone (condition WHITE! because I had ear buds stuffed in my ears!).
And yes *hangs head in shame* all I'm armed with is a 5 shot J-frame.
At this rate i'll be lucky if I live 'till my 43rd birthday next week.

I'm willing to bet the 5 cookies I just ate will have a greater chance of knocking years off my life span that my lounging around the house handgun selection.
:p

[JDM]

Assuming I needed a gun, I'd be wishing I had something crew served and belt fed.

We're not all steely eyed gunmen who wear 5-stitch instructor belts to bed.
I know it's a tactical faux pas to admit in public (on a gun forum no less) that 10 minutes ago I was laying on the couch wearing nothing but Adidas basketball shorts and a T-shirt while listening to a podcast on my phone (condition WHITE! because I had ear buds stuffed in my ears!).
And yes *hangs head in shame* all I'm armed with is a 5 shot J-frame.
At this rate i'll be lucky if I live 'till my 43rd birthday next week.

I'm willing to bet the 5 cookies I just ate will have a greater chance of knocking years off my life span that my lounging around the house handgun selection.
:p

You're more steely than I am. I'm not even wearing a gun!

When I get home for the night, the pistol comes off and a long gun comes out of the vault, and is somewhere within arms reach...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/06/ageja8e4.jpg

I like that J frame Jody. I really should get one of those.

[ACP230]

I use a S&W M38.

Did nothing to it but change the grips to Uncle Mike's boot grips.
It's in the pocket of my vest as I write this.

[GJM]

Assuming I needed a gun, I'd be wishing I had something crew served and belt fed.

We're not all steely eyed gunmen who wear 5-stitch instructor belts to bed.
I know it's a tactical faux pas to admit in public (on a gun forum no less) that 10 minutes ago I was laying on the couch wearing nothing but Adidas basketball shorts and a T-shirt while listening to a podcast on my phone (condition WHITE! because I had ear buds stuffed in my ears!).
And yes *hangs head in shame* all I'm armed with is a 5 shot J-frame.
At this rate i'll be lucky if I live 'till my 43rd birthday next week.

I'm willing to bet the 5 cookies I just ate will have a greater chance of knocking years off my life span that my lounging around the house handgun selection.
:p

Jody, I will admit -- it is a close call on the cookies versus the J frame, but I hadn't focused on the basketball shorts part of it. We have sort of had this discussion before, but living somewhere it is hot enough in early April to wear basketball shorts is the bigger problem. :)

[JodyH]

7:00am, 51 degrees.
Forecast high for today is 90.
I love the cool weather we have in the spring.

[Jac]

I'm currently lounging with a 637 down my pants... Bobbed hammer, disabled lock, Apex Duty/Carry kit.

Great minds, and all that...

[LSP972]

... well I'll just have to live in tactical shame.
Maybe if I added a velcro morale patch to my PJ's I can rejoin the cool crowd that keeps a spare gun (and mags of course) in the shower and carries 3 full size guns 25/8/366 because one is none and three is two... or something cool like that.



Spot on. I'm right there with you; in my pocket is a 360PD, featuring a whacked hammer spur and The Plug. It is in my pocket during waking hours; all day, every day. I have a treasured pre-lock 342 in the safe, for a rainy day.

No, it is not my primary when I'm out and about.

It has been my experience that those who sneer at the J frame have little or no hands-on time with the little beast. One particular uber-tactidork at work comes to mind...

Personally, I'd take a .38 J frame over a .380 anything... especially a Kel-Tec or clone thereof. The latter is quite popular in my area; and the fact that many of those users have some issues making the things work all the time doesn't seem to bother them.

But I think what some here have missed is the main point; most folks do NOT carry anything around their home. Doing so is a pretty good idea if you don't live in a walled compound that is regularly patrolled. And a small .38 snubby certainly beats a kitchen knife, or a thrown beer can- full, or otherwise.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I looks like a nice grip. I've got an old Barami grip clip for J frames and it carries well but sure isn't much to hold onto. Neat J frame there.

The Headhunter/Southnarc set up is to add a Tyler T-grip and a slip on rubber grip sleeve to the Barami. The think the Barami has a better clip than the Desantis, just my opinion.



Don't feel bad Jody, my lounge around gun, and often my mow the grass and take out the trash gun, is a S&W 317

[JodyH]

The Headhunter/Southnarc set up is to add a Tyler T-grip and a slip on rubber grip sleeve to the Barami.
What I don't like about that setup is the rubber sleeve.
Rubber grips grab and hold my shirt material. I like hard plastic grips on my IWB guns.

Don't feel bad Jody, my lounge around gun, and often my mow the grass and take out the trash gun, is a S&W 317
I really want a 3" 317 as a farm gun to dispatch vermin and beer cans, but somebody needs to make a reliable trigger kit to drop the DA trigger weight by 5# or so.

[TGS]

Assuming I needed a gun, I'd be wishing I had something crew served and belt fed.

We're not all steely eyed gunmen who wear 5-stitch instructor belts to bed.
I know it's a tactical faux pas to admit in public (on a gun forum no less) that 10 minutes ago I was laying on the couch wearing nothing but Adidas basketball shorts and a T-shirt while listening to a podcast on my phone (condition WHITE! because I had ear buds stuffed in my ears!).
And yes *hangs head in shame* all I'm armed with is a 5 shot J-frame.
At this rate i'll be lucky if I live 'till my 43rd birthday next week.

I'm willing to bet the 5 cookies I just ate will have a greater chance of knocking years off my life span that my lounging around the house handgun selection.
:p

This post is amazing. I love it. Especially the steely eyed 5-stitch in bed part.

[GJM]

What I don't like about that setup is the rubber sleeve.
Rubber grips grab and hold my shirt material. I like hard plastic grips on my IWB guns.

I really want a 3" 317 as a farm gun to dispatch vermin and beer cans, but somebody needs to make a reliable trigger kit to drop the DA trigger weight by 5# or so.

My 351 has about a 20 pound trigger, but my 3.something 317 hass great trigger after being shot thousands of rounds. I use it for training and harvesting small game animals.

[GJM]

This post is amazing. I love it. Especially the steely eyed 5-stitch in bed part.

Seems like the post ECQQ cool boy thing is no spare mag with your service pistol on the street and a J at home. Wonder if the prosecutor in TX and the head of CO prisons would have thought a J a good choice at home?

[JodyH]

I've been a CCW instructor in a medium sized city for going on 10 years and been into firearms training for over 15 years.
In those years I've had the pleasure of meeting a lot of "Tackleberry's" who claim to carry a significant loadout 24/7/365 and always be in "Yellow".
I've also interacted with a lot of them on the internet.
Then...
I see them on the town or in person and either they are REALLY good at concealing all that gear and disguising their uber-awareness behind mirrored shades or they're full of it and IF they carry it's the minimum like the majority.
Carrying 2 full sized guns, 4 magazines, 3 blades, 2 lights and OC may sound cool on the 'net, but is a real PITA in reality.
And when they do actually carry all that gear they always look like they're carrying 15# of uncomfortable crap under 2 shirts and a fishing vest.
I guarantee the vast majority who claim to carry the kitchen sink 24/7/365, don't.

I carry a gun most of the time, everything from a LCP to a P2000.
I carry a knife because I cut things.
I occasionally daydream or stare at my cell phone.
When I'm at the house I relax and that often means no gun (or pants) at all.
That's real life, not gun forum life.

I are doomed.
:p

[JodyH]

Seems like the post ECQQ cool boy thing is no spare mag with your service pistol on the street and a J at home. Wonder if the prosecutor in TX and the head of CO prisons would have thought a J a good choice at home?
Really?
I think a realistic threat assessment should be part of your defensive plan.
If I actively interacted with the criminal element as a LEO, prosecutor, criminal defense attorney, jailer, warden, drug dealer, drug user, fence, gang member etc. etc. then I would change my defensive plan accordingly.
It's a ridiculous argument to use the targeted assassinations of high profile law enforcement officials as supporting arguments for what the average person needs as the minimum defensive plans/gear.
You know Reagan was shot on the street and he had a large Uzi wielding security detail, you might want to re-think leaving the house alone with *only* a handgun and spare mags...

[GJM]

I agree with much of your post. However, there is a happy medium between unarmed and fantasy. For me that is a semi auto pistol and a spare mag, both because I can efficiently carry that combination, and because I would never willingly choose a five shot J frame to actually defend my life if I had the service pistol
alternative.

[JodyH]

And I would never willingly use a service pistol when I have a carbine available.
Since we're talking about carrying inside your own house/property why are you relying on a crappy handgun when there's nothing stopping you from slinging a carbine?
I can carry a carbine around in more states of dress/undress than I can a pistol plus spare magazine.
:confused:

Seems like the post ECQQ cool boy thing is no spare mag with your service pistol on the street and a J at home.
And the post {insert shooting class here} cool thing to do is endlessly debate front sight to rear sight notch ratios and 1/2# trigger spring differences in the pursuit of a 0.25 sec faster draw from a perfectly planted carefully positioned shooting platform at a static cardboard target.

It is what it is...

[JodyH]

Todays range session with the "lounge around J-frame".
5 for 5 on 8" steel at 35 yards, even with the XS Big Dot sight.
Black Hills 148gr. wadcutters shoot great out of it, accurate to point of aim and very low recoil.
A zone splits in the .30 range at 10 yards.
I'll probably be replacing the Cor-Bon DPX with the flying hunk-o-lead wadcutters.

[CCT125US]

The other thing to consider while at home is having access to other fireams. If I am sitting on my couch and 6 dudes stack up outside my door and decide they are coming in, my 5 shot J might not work out so well. However, if I have any indication of trouble, I am going for a long gun. I guess I could always sling my long gun while in the house..... In truth I frequently carry my P30 in my 5 Shot SME and a reload while at home. Why? Because it is so comfortable and MOST of the time does not interfere with my daily life. The spare mag helps to balance out some weight and makes the gun even more comfortable for me. Just my opinion

[ToddG]

I see them on the town or in person and either they are REALLY good at concealing all that gear and disguising their uber-awareness behind mirrored shades or they're full of it and IF they carry it's the minimum like the majority.

This surprises me, as I normally spent a number of days each year hanging out with people of all different shapes, sizes, and backgrounds around the country concealing reasonably big guns out at dinner without wearing mirrored shades or being identified as militants.

[TGS]

Seems like the post ECQQ cool boy thing is no spare mag with your service pistol on the street and a J at home. Wonder if the prosecutor in TX and the head of CO prisons would have thought a J a good choice at home?

I don't think it has anything to do with whatever ECQC cool kid clique you're perceiving. You might be projecting a little on that one, because everyone in my ECQC class was very humble by the end of the weekend having been handed their ass at least once.

If you have a problem with carrying a j-frame, that's cool. Maybe not everyone is you, and maybe they'd rather just sit around on Sunday in gym shorts and feel comfortable doing so with a J-frame clipped to their shorts.....because, my gosh, the concept of an MS13 SWAT team rappelling through their windows isn't always the dominant driving force in their decision making cycle. Horrors.

I don't think anyone would argue with you that their choice of carrying a j-frame at home is equal firepower to your EDC of a 10" .300 Blackout carbine, a .44 Mag, and a 10mm Glock 20 as a BUG. Just as no one is telling you that a J-frame is just as good, no one is forcing the J-frame-only loadout on you.....and everyone in this thread is also a big boy capable of making their own decisions as well.

[TGS]

This surprises me, as I normally spent a number of days each year hanging out with people of all different shapes, sizes, and backgrounds around the country concealing reasonably big guns out at dinner without wearing mirrored shades or being identified as militants.

Says the guy air-gunning around invisible barriers at the dinner table in Chile's...... :cool:

[JodyH]

Just curious why this is being discussed in Forum>Hardware>Revolvers instead of Forum>Software>Mindset&Tactics ?
Aren't there already 3 or 4 active threads regarding handgun capacity and carry preferences?
:confused:

[LHS]

This surprises me, as I normally spent a number of days each year hanging out with people of all different shapes, sizes, and backgrounds around the country concealing reasonably big guns out at dinner without wearing mirrored shades or being identified as militants.

I used to think I carried a lot, what with normally toting around a full-size Beretta 92, spare mag, a couple of pocket knives and occasionally a J-frame as a BUG. Then one of my friends, who never looks loaded down, revealed he was packing a 1911, four spare mags, a J-frame, two speedloaders (NOT speed-strips, actual speed-loaders), two folding kerambits, two cans of OC and body armor, all under a button-down shirt while riding around in his wheelchair. He just shrugged and said, "I can't run away."

It's all threat analysis, and knowing your own capabilities and needs.

[LSP972]

I'll probably be replacing the Cor-Bon DPX with the flying hunk-o-lead wadcutters.

Again, at the ranges most of these little guns are employed at, a standard wadcutter load does just as well on unprotected meat as anything else. I was able to examine several of these (two Speer 148gr, one Zero 148gr, both "remanufactured" cartridges using the standard 2.7 grains of Bullseye for propellant) dug out of miscreants. They had been shot out of pre-95 J frames with the 1 7/8" barrel.

One subject expired soon after being shot; he bled out almost immediately. The second one went down due to, I'm sure, psychlogical incapacitation. He survived.

All three bullets mushroomed a bit at the nose, and penetrated to the chest cavity but did not exit.

Back in the day, it was common for those cops who reloaded to load the Speer 148 grain hollow base wadcutter backwards, crimping just below the base skirt of the reversed bullet. The idea, of course, was the the hollow base would act as a hollow point. By the time I had gotten in a position to be privy to the details of our shootings, this practice had been outlawed. So, sadly, I was never able to see for myself whether it actually worked or not.

But it sure SEEMED like a good idea...;)

.

[ToddG]

Just curious why this is being discussed in Forum>Hardware>Revolvers instead of Forum>Software>Mindset&Tactics ?

Because the guy who started the thread was discussing it? :p

[Tamara]

I'm so tactical, I carry a service-size auto at home and a flashlight and a knife. But that's just because there's a knife and a flashlight in my jeans pockets and I usually put my jeans on very shortly after breakfast. If the ninjas rappel through the windows between the alarm clock and breakfast, I might be hosed.

I don't sleep in a five-stitch belt, but when I am in my pyjamas in bed, there's a gun within reach: A Smith .38 Spl w/a 2-inch barrel. (It's the high-capacity six-shooter variety, though.)

[Chuck Haggard]

: A Smith .38 Spl w/a 2-inch barrel. (It's the high-capacity six-shooter variety, though.)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are doomed.

[DanH]

well my shotgun is within reach when I'm in bed, but its only a 4-shooter so I'm even more screwed :(

However, since I once defended myself against a amateur attempt at home invasion/burglary using the patented fat-guy-in-tighty-whities-with-a-baseball-bat technique, I do not feel unprotected.

I would like to take this time to apologize to all and sundry for the mental scarring that is inevitable from the mental pictures the previous sentence will undoubtedly produce.

[FotoTomas]

I really like the gun you have and concept you propose. Works for me but I have yet to get the "treatment" for my little pocket rocket. You see...I too must confess to being a tactifaux. I too will almost always have my 638 in the pocket of my basketball shorts when in the house lounging about. It is lighter to carry and easier to draw than my Kahr PM9. Since no belt loops are provided the draw string is enough to keep me from embarrasing myself in front of friends and family when armed in the house. I also admit to having no spare reload on my person at such times. No CTC grips either nor bright night sights. In fact I often carry said revolver outside the home when taking the trash and recycle bins to the curb. Fully exposed to the wrath of the world with nothing but some droopy shorts, a t-shirt and five rounds of wishfull thinking. I am also better armed than 90+% of the rest of the country.

There is also a carbine and shotgun in relatively easy reach if the end of the world comes. I guess the original post is the perfect example of the gun you use to fight your way to the gun you need. :)

[LSP972]

In fact I often carry said revolver outside the home when taking the trash and recycle bins to the curb. Fully exposed to the wrath of the world with nothing but some droopy shorts, a t-shirt and five rounds of wishfull thinking. I am also better armed than 90+% of the rest of the country.



LOL. Well-stated; and true.

.

[David Armstrong]

I absolutely get the value of a J frame for pocket carry in a NPE situation or as a BUG.

That said, I think carrying a J frame because it is comfortable, when comfort or effort is the only thing preventing you from carrying a real pistol, is a very slippery slope. Even though I have a lot of experience shooting revolvers, mostly big bore ones, I can't thing of any real shooting scenario where I would not feel seriously compromised with a 5 shot J frame.
Interesting perspective. I can't think of any realistic shooting scenario within the "lounge around" parameters where I would feel a 5-shot J-frame compromised my abilities to any realistic degree.


Seems like the post ECQQ cool boy thing is no spare mag with your service pistol on the street and a J at home. Wonder if the prosecutor in TX and the head of CO prisons would have thought a J a good choice at home?
I bet either of them would have liked to have been able to access any gun at all, and given the scenarios I'm not sure it would have mattered much if it were a 5-shot J or a 17-shot Glock.

[Erik]

Sadly for me in CT, in my home is the only place where I can carry my higher capacity guns these days...

[GJM]

Interesting perspective. I can't think of any realistic shooting scenario within the "lounge around" parameters where I would feel a 5-shot J-frame compromised my abilities to any realistic degree.

I can't think of any scenario that involved actual shooting where the the J frame would NOT compromise my ability compared to a 9/40/45 service pistol and a spare mag, based on:

1) the terminal effectiveness of .38 versus modern 9/40/45.

2) 5 .38 cartridges versus the capacity of any service pistol.

3) the speed of reloading the J frame versus the service pistol.

4) the quality of the sights of the service pistol versus the J frame, and my ability to place a precise shot with those sights.

5) the speed with which I can present a service pistol from a holster versus a J frame from my pocket or waistband.

6) my recoil control with the service pistol compared to my Scandium J frame.

7) my ability to move from inside the house to outside the house on our rural property and be equipped to handle the kind of shooting challenges I can envision where we live.

[David Armstrong]

Therein lies the rub, as the Bard said. There is a difference between "compromised my abilities to any realistic degree" and "would NOT compromise my ability compared to..." Often there are differences; whether those differences really make a difference in the outcome is another issue. Personally I would think that lounging around all the time while carrying a full-size service pistol and a spare mag creates a different series of issues in and of itself.

[ToddG]

Therein lies the rub, as the Bard said. There is a difference between "compromised my abilities to any realistic degree" and "would NOT compromise my ability compared to..." Often there are differences; whether those differences really make a difference in the outcome is another issue. Personally I would think that lounging around all the time while carrying a full-size service pistol and a spare mag creates a different series of issues in and of itself.

I've met people who've, at one point or another in their lives, had a thought something like: "Damn, I wish I had more gun right now." At least two forum members have been in such situations within the past couple of years, both realizing that the j-frame they had with them wouldn't be enough if an earnest fight broke out.

I've yet to meet a single person who has ever wished he had less gun when the time came for needing a gun.

[WDW]

Any handgun is always a compromise. I would love to have a 6920 @ my fingertips @ all times w/30rds of 5.56 ready to go. That's neither legal or practical though. Sometimes it just isn't feasible to have a service size/caliber pistol on you @ all times. J frames & similar size/caliber guns have their place.

[YVK]

I got a J-frame too. Same sights, although no Apex stuff. None other than GJM convinced me to get one to improve trigger work.
I can't hit a 3x5 at 7 with it. This is not a figure of speech, it is a 100% factual statement.
Of course it only speaks for my own inadequacy, but it is what it is. That leaves me with no option other than sleeping in a 5 stitch belt.

[MGW]

Read thishttp://www.amazon.com/The-Snubby-Revolver-Concealed-Standard/dp/1581605714/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365560236&sr=8-1&keywords=the+snubby+revolver

I would rather have a snubby than nothing regardless of the situation. I don't care what you carry we will always be able to dream up a scenerio or relay evidence of one that would rule the choice inept. Any weapon is a small part of a system.

Most of my time carrying in bad places has been with an AR platform. That AR didn't make me safe just by carrying it. I made me SAFER by knowing how to use it, being aware of my surroundings, and how to use other tools if things got to up close and personal.

These arguments about what gun is enough can go in circles forever.

[ToddG]

I would rather have a snubby than nothing regardless of the situation.

I don't think you'll find anyone on any side of this discussion who'd disagree with that.

"I would rather own a Yugo than no car at all."

The question isn't whether a j-frame is better than a dirty look. The question is whether there are guns as easy to carry, practically speaking, that have better ballistics, more firepower, and/or superior shootability.

[Jay Cunningham]

How much gun is enough?

[ToddG]

How much gun is enough?

Working title of an upcoming blog post on my site (with thanks to another forum member who recommended the subject)...

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm here all week, ladies and gentlemen...

[CCT125US]

How much gun is enough?

Dude that is too easy.... one that stops the threat(s) in the allotted time.

[Jay Cunningham]

Dude that is too easy.... one that stops the threat(s) in the allotted time.

OH WOW

[JHC]

Dude that is too easy.... one that stops the threat(s) in the allotted time.

And only measured in retrospect?

[Tamara]

How much gun is enough?

That is frequently entirely up to the person getting shot with it.

[David Armstrong]

I've met people who've, at one point or another in their lives, had a thought something like: "Damn, I wish I had more gun right now." At least two forum members have been in such situations within the past couple of years, both realizing that the j-frame they had with them wouldn't be enough if an earnest fight broke out.

I've yet to meet a single person who has ever wished he had less gun when the time came for needing a gun.
Sure, but carrying around a belt-fed 7.62 auto is a bit problematic. As always, it is a compromise and arguing that my compromise point is better than your compromise point is one that has been worked to death. I've interviewed lots of BGs and not a one of them has ever said that if the other guy had only been carrying a bigger gun he would have changed things. I've been in a few fights, and while it may be nice to have lots of stuff in reserve all of them could have been solved with a <6 shot revolver just as well as a 17 round semi-auto.

The question is whether there are guns as easy to carry, practically speaking, that have better ballistics, more firepower, and/or superior shootability.
I thought the question was if the modified J-frame was a good lounge-around gun? There are plenty of cars that are more comfortable and get better mileage than say, a Chevy Malibu, but does that mean the Malibu is not sufficient for driving around town getting groceries and taking the kids to school? It seems these discussions always fall back to "Yeah, but A is better than B" instead of the basic "Given situation 1, is A an appropriatae choice".

[ToddG]

Sure, but carrying around a belt-fed 7.62 auto is a bit problematic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[David Armstrong]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Nope. Try again. You opened the door when you proposed "I've yet to meet a single person who has ever wished he had less gun when the time came for needing a gun." Given the fact that military combat is clearly a time for needing a gun the belt-fed heavy auto versus less gun is quite valid. Yet we do not issue belt-feds to all soldiers, and given the situation I know a number of folks that would reject the bigger gun for "less gun." The point is that you phrase it wrong, IMO. The better wording to me would be something that does not address if one wanted less gun but if there was a need for more gun. One could just as easily insert a 6" Mdl 29 or other gun if you don't like the belt-fed example.

[ToddG]

Perhaps you're not understanding reductio ad absurdum. Here's an example: inserting belt-fed machine guns into a discussion about concealed carry handgun compromises. :cool:

As for the j-frame debate, it's a pretty straightforward odds/stakes/costs problem. You may very well be correct and a j-frame or similar handgun will be adequate most of the time. But for those rare occasions when it's not the stakes are monstrously high, and the cost in terms of convenience and comfort between, say, a 442 and a G26 are tiny on any practical level.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/g26-j-size.jpg

[shootist26]

I am not going to wear pants indoors. I'm going to stuff the j-frame into my gym shorts pocket and call it a day.

:cool:

[JConn]

It's ALIVE!!!

[Chuck Haggard]

One of the reasons I am OK with running around with something like my 317 at home is that I am in a position to do the "fight my way to a real gun" while there.

Out and about? Not so much.


Sure, a G26 is about the same size as a J frame like the 642, but the 642 carries SOOOOOOO much better. In theory, theory and reality are the same, in reality it doesn't always work that way.

A VERY real issue I have when using a G26 in the same carry modes as the 642 is that I can grip and draw the 642 so much cleaner and faster, with much less likelihood of a hangup on the draw.

[JConn]

One of the reasons I am OK with running around with something like my 317 at home is that I am in a position to do the "fight my way to a real gun" while there.

Out and about? Not so much.


Sure, a G26 is about the same size as a J frame like the 642, but the 642 carries SOOOOOOO much better. In theory, theory and reality are the same, in reality it doesn't always work that way.

A VERY real issue I have when using a G26 in the same carry modes as the 642 is that I can grip and draw the 642 so much cleaner and faster, with much less likelihood of a hangup on the draw.

So assuming you can figure out a way to carry a glock 26 where you can get a good grip on it, which I don't think is that hard, once you draw it you have: more than twice the capacity, a gun that is easier to control, far superior sights even with the stock dovetail protectors in place, faster reload speeds if you carry a reload, and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking about. That being said, if you feel comfortable in your decision, great. Like David always says we make a compromise based on our comfort level and our perception of threats in our environment.

[Kyle Reese]

My lounge around gun is a Glock 34 Gen 4 with SF X400.

[JJN]

My running is that a J-Frame is what I carry when I can't carry a gun. The difference in carryability between a Hip-gripped 3/4/642 and a G26 is huge. I've lightened my 642 with a Ti cylinder. I can be in gym shorts or even boxers-briefs and have a J-Frame on me. Like TPD223, I don't feel comfortable out and about with a J, but I do like the ability to carry almost literally all the time. I put it on a shelf with I lift in the garage, but other than that, if I'm out of bed I have a gun on me. There have been a handful of times that I've gone out and about with just a J, but practically speaking those instances are ones where I would have been completely unarmed had I not had the J. Things like running out of the garage after a loose dog or joining my wife on the last loop of her evening walk.
I've been shooting our local defensive pistol match with a revolver, so I'm keenly aware of how archaic they are. I'm in no way arguing the J-frame as superior to anything but a .380, but it is better than nothing. If you have a service pistol on you from the time your feet hit the floor out of bed to the time you lay down at night, then good on ya. But if there are any times when you're wandering around the house/garage/yard less than fully dressed and armed, that's when a "lounge-around" gun comes into play.
Jon

[David Armstrong]

Perhaps you're not understanding reductio ad absurdum. Here's an example: inserting belt-fed machine guns into a discussion about concealed carry handgun compromises. :cool:
I understand the reductio argument, I suggest that it is not valid given the extension you provided. As I pointed out you changed the parameters to "I've yet to meet a single person who has ever wished he had less gun when the time came for needing a gun." Of course I'm not sure how one could even define "less gun" in any reasonable fashion. However, I could also argue that the discussion is not about concealed carry handgun compromises, it is about adequacy of a firearm in the "lounge-around" context which would also open up the belt-feed if one is wanting to talk comparisons instead of sufficiency. Given that lounging around allows for lots of leeway as you are presumably lounging around in your house, a large belt-fed firearm, or a large shotgun, or a large rifle, etc. could all be looked at in that context.


As for the j-frame debate, it's a pretty straightforward odds/stakes/costs problem. You may very well be correct and a j-frame or similar handgun will be adequate most of the time. But for those rare occasions when it's not the stakes are monstrously high, and the cost in terms of convenience and comfort between, say, a 442 and a G26 are tiny on any practical level.
That is purely subjective. I've got a 442 and a G26 and the G26 is a safe queen for me. I find it nowhere near as comfortable or convenient as the 442. And again that leads to comparison. I'd suggest a pretty good argument could be made that any differences in convenience and comfort between, say, a G26 and a G19 are tiny on any practical level and in comparison the G19 pretty much has it all over the G26. One can have the same rare occasions when the stakes are high, so why not argue that one should lounge around with the G19....or a shotgun....or an AR....or a belt-fed. That is the problem with this argument, IMO...one can always come up with a situation where whatever you have chosen it is the wrong gun.

[JodyH]

As for the j-frame debate, it's a pretty straightforward odds/stakes/costs problem. You may very well be correct and a j-frame or similar handgun will be adequate most of the time. But for those rare occasions when it's not the stakes are monstrously high, and the cost in terms of convenience and comfort between, say, a 442 and a G26 are tiny on any practical level.
Interesting perspective from someone who went from a 15+1 9mm (H&K P30) to a similarly sized 10+1 9mm (1911).
In terms of convenience and comfort there is no difference between the P30 and the 1911.
In terms of performance, again practically zero difference (in fact your single stack reloads are still slower and less consistent aren't they?).
Yet you gave up 33% capacity for zero gain.
If you are really concerned about the rare occasion when the stakes are monstrously high, and the cost in terms of convenience and comfort between, say, a P30 and a 1911 are tiny on any practical level... wouldn't you still be carrying the P30 or a Glock 19 instead of the 1911?

:p:confused::p

[ToddG]

That is the problem with this argument, IMO...one can always come up with a situation where whatever you have chosen it is the wrong gun.

So... that's reductio ad absurdum. "I can create an absurd hypothetical to counter your practical conclusion."

Essentially you're saying that since you cannot guarantee that any one gun will be able to win the fight in every single imaginable circumstance that you might as well just carry a j-frame. But following that logic, why bother with the gun at all? It's like you're purposely trying to thread a needle between the huge percentage chance of not needing a gun at all today and the unlikely chance of needing a gun today.

What it boils down to is pretty simple: if and when you do need a gun, if you could suddenly have either a j-frame or a G26 appear in your hand, which would you pick? Unless you're going to be argumentative for the heck of it, you'd pick the G26. So given that you'd prefer a G26 for the fight, all that's left is to weigh the cost (time, effort, comfort) of carrying a G26 instead of a j-frame. I acknowledge that it's not as zombie thoughtless simple to carry a G26 as it is to drop a j into your pocket. But it's not as easy to push a quarter across a table as it is to push a dime, either... but neither of those things is actually difficult and I doubt anyone would opt to receive the dime over the quarter just because it was "easier."

And FWIW, I agree with you 100% on the G26/G19 thing. If I had it to do over again, instead of owning a G17 and a G26 I'd just get two G19s.

[ToddG]

If you are really concerned about the rare occasion when the stakes are monstrously high, and the cost in terms of convenience and comfort between, say, a P30 and a 1911 are tiny on any practical level... wouldn't you still be carrying the P30 or a Glock 19 instead of the 1911?

Absolutely. I tell folks all the time that if I had to choose one gun to carry for the rest of my life it would be a P30.

My choice to use the 1911 this year was based on business issues, not selecting what I thought was the single best self-defense firearm on Earth. And the capacity issue in particular was -- and continues to be -- a negative in my mind.

But I don't get online and say, "Here's what I carry, a single stack 1911, and it's all the gun I could imagine anyone ever needing." I don't advocate it. I acknowledge that it's not the most practical choice I can make. I don't make fun of people who carry higher capacity guns. That's the difference.

Having said that, compared to the other 10-shot 9mm semiauto we've been discussing (the G26) I do actually find the SACS/Warren 9mm 1911 easier to shoot and easier to reload (that stubby G26 needs some care to avoid blood blisters on the palm). Which brings us right back 'round to my main argument: while one gun may theoretically be easier to conceal, from a practical standpoint I can conceal the 1911 just fine so why would I choose something lesser?

[JodyH]

I'm open to suggestions on how to carry a Glock 26 while wearing elastic waisted nylon shorts with no pockets.
And no, having a Smartcarry flop around and dig into my crotch isn't going to cut it.
My 11 oz. Grip-Clip J-frame does it no problem.
Perhaps if I lived "la vida loca" i'd worry about a cartel hit team kicking in my door, but my biggest concern is the opportunistic meth head sneaking into my garage while i'm napping on the couch or the stray pit bull digging into my yard to fight with my dogs.

If the topic was what gun to carry while conducting my daily business in my usual daily attire the whole argument would be valid.
Or what gun to carry when I just stepped in the door after conducting my daily business.
The topic is "lounge-around" gun, and lounge around attire for me isn't jeans, two shirts (stylish oversized Polo plus wicking undershirt), a 5-stitch belt, AIWB holster and mag carrier.
"Lounge-around" for me is what I do once i'm home for the evening, showered and not planning on stepping beyond my locked front door.
My favored attire for that activity is comfortable nylon shorts and a T-shirt.
I'm willing to bet that the 5 shot J-frame stuffed in the waistband of my basketball shorts is 100% more gun than the majority of people carry when dressed similarly.

[ToddG]

I'm open to suggestions on how to carry a Glock 26 while wearing elastic waisted nylon shorts with no pockets.

Again, you're missing the point of contention. If you insist on wearing no belt and no holster and you've come to the conclusion that a G26-sized SmartCarry is uncomfortable (which I find surprising) then it's those decisions which fuel the "j-frame is awesome" conclusion. It's like a nudist saying there's no way he can carry a concealed gun. Yes there is... he just has to be willing to wear clothes.


Perhaps if I lived "la vida loca" i'd worry about a cartel hit team kicking in my door, but my biggest concern is the opportunistic meth head sneaking into my garage while i'm napping on the couch or the stray pit bull digging into my yard to fight with my dogs.

Your assumptions that (a) those are the only potential threats and (b) a 5-shot .38 will be adequate in those situations just require too much crystal ball reading for me.

[JodyH]

Again, you're missing the point of contention. If you insist on wearing no belt and no holster...

Your assumptions that (a) those are the only potential threats and (b) a 5-shot .38 will be adequate in those situations just require too much crystal ball reading for me.
That same point of contention is valid when your carry choice is made on business decisions.
My decision to carry a lower capacity gun is based on what I want to wear around the house, yours is based on what's best from a business standpoint.
Both decisions are made knowing they are compromises
My decision is arguably the safer bet since I'm behind locked doors and within 10 seconds of obtaining a long gun or higher capacity handgun at anytime or anywhere in the house.
You decision to give up 33% capacity affects you everywhere you go on a daily basis.

The assumption that 10 would do the job that 5 couldn't isn't backed up by years of AAR's on civilian (and LEO) defensive gun uses in and out of the home.
One poor dude getting killed by a lightning strike doesn't justify wearing a portable faraday cage everytime it clouds up.

[ToddG]

One poor dude getting killed by a lightning strike doesn't justify wearing a portable faraday cage everytime it clouds up.

And yet, when there are legitimate fears of lightning strikes, most people do in fact take reasonable measures to prevent getting hit. :cool:

You've chosen a mode of dress based on comfort and now you're trying to shoehorn justification for your gun into it rather than simply saying, "I'd rather wear elastic shorts than carry a real gun." If the j is so functional based on those "civilian AARs" then why carry something bigger, more expensive, etc. when you're not in gym shorts?

[JodyH]

My original post was quite clear on the mode of dress and activities being conducted that played into my handgun selection criteria.

As to why not carry X, because locked doors and proximity to "real" guns are factors in the decision making process.
Inside the house I have near immediate access to "overkill", so "just enough" on my person is a good compromise.
Outside the house "overkill" has to be carried on my person and "just enough" is too much of a compromise.

[WobblyPossum]

JodyH, would something the size of a G26, or your P2000sk work in a pair of basketball shorts with pockets? I also generally lounge around the house in a pair of nylon shorts, but I don't own any subcompact semi-autos to try.

[ToddG]

My original post was quite clear on the mode of dress and activities being conducted that played into my handgun selection criteria.

And I didn't peep in response to your original post. "This is all I'm willing to wear, so this is the gun that works best for me" is perfectly reasonable even if it's not the choice I'd make. It's when it goes beyond that to trying to justify the j as a gunfighter uberweapon while simultaneously making fun of people who are actually willing to wear pants all day that sparked my comments.

[JConn]

JodyH, given your restrictions it absolutely seems like you have found the right gun for the job, and I'm sure it does the job well. My solution when lounging on sweatpants is probably not as good as yours as a gun isn't physically on my body. I just think this has become the official forum argument.

[GJM]

Jody, I bet we could take up a collection to buy you "proper" lounge around shorts:

http://www.mountainkhakis.com/products/men/shorts/ms-cargo-short.cfm

I am at the Rogers School this week, and I can say there is no sequence of targets here I would prefer to handle with a J frame even if shots were limited to the capacity of the J frame.

[MDS]

people who are actually willing to wear pants all day

Freaks.

I should know, I am one. To me, it's more of a hassle to get dressed multiple times a day, let alone figure out appropriate gun wearing measures, like a tactical Mr Rogers. If lounging in nylon shorts is your thing, sweet, I think it's pretty awesome that you went to the extra trouble to figure out how to carry that way. For myself, I'll lounge around in the same comfortable clothes I put on this morning, with the same comfortable mode of carry. Does that make me less loungey? ;)

So for the purposes of this thread, my lounge around gun is a g17 with a standard capacity mag. (Did you hear that Colorado? I moved here with a metric ton of preban standard cap mags, which will be in my continuous possession forever!)

[David Armstrong]

So... that's reductio ad absurdum. "I can create an absurd hypothetical to counter your practical conclusion."
Sure. But that assumes an absurd hypothetical has been proposed and the conclusion offered was practical. I don't see that as being the case.


Essentially you're saying that since you cannot guarantee that any one gun will be able to win the fight in every single imaginable circumstance that you might as well just carry a j-frame.
I think you know better than that. I am saying that given the concept of a lounge-around gun, the J-frame meets the need quite well.

But following that logic, why bother with the gun at all? It's like you're purposely trying to thread a needle between the huge percentage chance of not needing a gun at all today and the unlikely chance of needing a gun today.
Nope. I'm proposing that given the described situation a particular solution addresses the situation quite well. Nothing can address all situations perfectly, but in the parameters offered the solution is quite viable. There are other solutions and I don't object to them. I do object to the idea that because there are other solutions that the offered solution is inadequate. I don't make fun of folks that feel they need hi-cap big guns wondering around the house, it's good that they know their limitations in their situation. But don't come down on others that don't share those limitations in their situation. It is not the difference between "not needing a gun at all today" and "needing a gun today", it is the difference between "needing a gun today" and "needing a gun today to do something the J-frame can't handle."


What it boils down to is pretty simple: if and when you do need a gun, if you could suddenly have either a j-frame or a G26 appear in your hand, which would you pick? Unless you're going to be argumentative for the heck of it, you'd pick the G26.
As you point out, that is only one part of the problem, and I would go so far as to suggest it is the minor part of the problem. And nothing argumentative about it, I'd pick my J-frame. There is a reason the G26 is a safe queen. Much as I love my other Glocks, the G26 is uncomfortable for me to carry and shoot, and given the choice I regularly take the J-frame if thta is the choice.

So given that you'd prefer a G26 for the fight, all that's left is to weigh the cost (time, effort, comfort) of carrying a G26 instead of a j-frame. I acknowledge that it's not as zombie thoughtless simple to carry a G26 as it is to drop a j into your pocket. But it's not as easy to push a quarter across a table as it is to push a dime, either... but neither of those things is actually difficult and I doubt anyone would opt to receive the dime over the quarter just because it was "easier."
Actually it might be easier to push a quarter, given that it has a larger surface for you to interact with as opposed to the dime. That beside the point, lots of folks have made that decision to carry the J-frame because the definite cost in time, effort, and comfort outweighs the possible benefits of the G26.

[JodyH]

Page 9... Tamara wisdom says this thread jumped the shark 4 pages ago.
:cool:

[Caboose]

Page 9... Tamara wisdom says this thread jumped the shark 4 pages ago.
:cool:

I think we can squeeze a little more out of it. It's only to page five on Tapatalk :p

[Clyde from Carolina]

I'm open to suggestions on how to carry a Glock 26 while wearing elastic waisted nylon shorts with no pockets.
And no, having a Smartcarry flop around and dig into my crotch isn't going to cut it.
My 11 oz. Grip-Clip J-frame does it no problem.
Perhaps if I lived "la vida loca" i'd worry about a cartel hit team kicking in my door, but my biggest concern is the opportunistic meth head sneaking into my garage while i'm napping on the couch or the stray pit bull digging into my yard to fight with my dogs.

If the topic was what gun to carry while conducting my daily business in my usual daily attire the whole argument would be valid.
Or what gun to carry when I just stepped in the door after conducting my daily business.
The topic is "lounge-around" gun, and lounge around attire for me isn't jeans, two shirts (stylish oversized Polo plus wicking undershirt), a 5-stitch belt, AIWB holster and mag carrier.
"Lounge-around" for me is what I do once i'm home for the evening, showered and not planning on stepping beyond my locked front door.
My favored attire for that activity is comfortable nylon shorts and a T-shirt.
I'm willing to bet that the 5 shot J-frame stuffed in the waistband of my basketball shorts is 100% more gun than the majority of people carry when dressed similarly.

I've been following this thread with interest. My favorite hot weather "lounge around gun" is indeed a J-frame, but this thread (and some others) got me thinking. I live in a hot locale also and my favorite "lounging" wear is usually a T-shirt and a pair of my old nylon fishing shorts. Today when I got home, I changed into lounge wear (aforementioned fishing shorts and T-shirt) and instead of putting my Clip-grip J-frame in my waistband I put a belt on the fishing shorts and a VG2 and a Glock 19. (And a spare G17 mag in a Safariland 71 pouch for good measure.) Been lounging for a while now and I must say it is a little heavier but almost as comfy as my 642. Definitely need a belt, but it is do-able.

So, although I agree intellectually with those who say you are probably just fine with a J-frame lounging around the house (and always ten steps from a 12 gauge at my casa) Todd may have still converted me. :rolleyes:

[Chuck Haggard]

So assuming you can figure out a way to carry a glock 26 where you can get a good grip on it, which I don't think is that hard, .

Have you tired? I have, over the course of several years.

I go with as big a gun as I can get away with for my mode of dress and the situation at hand.

I have been in a position to carry a 1911, as a BUG, to a M60 machine gun.

I carried a S&W 6906 for many years as a BUG to my 5906. I go run hills with a Galco fanny pack containing a G19 and a reload.

On vacation in Puerto Rico a couple of months ago I was in very comfortable attire, mostly cargo shorts and a T-shirt once out of the condo, but was carrying a Glock 19, two reloads (for me two is just as uncomfortable as one so why not...). My BUG would normally be a 642 but this time I took my LCR .22 and a reload strip for it, along with my big ass ZT folder.

I'm willing to do the work, dress around the gun, and put up with discomfort, however, comma, a G26 does not and will never draw from a pocket as well as a 642. Period. The very shape of the gun precludes this.

I used to carry a G26 to BUG my on duty G17 but arthritis in my knee got to the point that I could no longer carry a gun that heavy on my ankle all day long. So I now have two 642s as BUGs while at work.

Like Jody, when I am at home and wearing something like gym shorts I am comfortable with carrying my comfortable little guns. My doors are locked unless I am taking the trash out or whatever, my pocking set up would defeat a ram for several hits, and large handguns, carbines and shotguns are close by when I am inside.

Me having my gun on me, as has been noted by others, is likely way more gooder for threat response than what most people have, which is most often nothing at all.


And yet, when there are legitimate fears of lightning strikes, most people do in fact take reasonable measures to prevent getting hit.
I would argue that one has warning when lightening is going to show up via weather reports and such. If I heard the theme to the Good, the Bad and the Ugly and saw three guys in dusters walking towards the front of my house I would in fact adjourn to another room to get a really big gun.

One does not duck lightening on days where the sky is clear blue.

[ToddG]

I would argue that one has warning when lightening is going to show up via weather reports and such. If I heard the theme to the Good, the Bad and the Ugly and saw three guys in dusters walking towards the front of my house I would in fact adjourn to another room to get a really big gun.

I think you just made my point for me. :cool:

[MGW]

I don't think you'll find anyone on any side of this discussion who'd disagree with that.

"I would rather own a Yugo than no car at all."

The question isn't whether a j-frame is better than a dirty look. The question is whether there are guns as easy to carry, practically speaking, that have better ballistics, more firepower, and/or superior shootability.

And as reliable and as easy to draw? In my experience no. I find a j frame very shootable but that's me. I think the ballistics of a heavy standard velocity .38 hold there own against a 9mm (I don't mean just as good but close). I find a j much easier to carry than a G26. I can carry it appendix or in a front pocket with more safely than a striker fired pistol. And the biggy, I'm more likely to carry it around the house than just about anything else.

Within the context of lounging around the house the j frame is just about perfect.

That's just my opinion of course. Other people may disagree with it...but they would be wrong :)

[TGS]

Well, it appears that not all of us are steely eyed BAMF's that wear a 5-stitch 24/7.......and then some of us are.

Whoda thunk. Phenomenal discussion here, it's pretty original. I'm wearing gym shorts right now, with no gun. At this point of the day, after the day I had, I don't really give a shit, either. Ya'll can feel free to piss on my grave if it makes you feel better in validating your carry choices due to personal insecurity and a need to beat a dead horse any chance you get, 'cause ya know the "you're going to die if you don't carry what I carry" crap hasn't occurred at any time in history on the gunternet.


JodyH, would something the size of a G26, or your P2000sk work in a pair of basketball shorts with pockets? I also generally lounge around the house in a pair of nylon shorts, but I don't own any subcompact semi-autos to try.

Unfortunately, those pistols would be heavy enough to drag the pockets down to your knees, and probably drag the shorts down as well.......unless you tightened the waistband super tight, thereby defeating the purpose of wearing gym shorts while still having a gun flopping around by your knees in a stretched out pocket. I have a 14oz (unloaded) pistol, and even that isn't pocketable in gym shorts.

[JFK]

Not everyone can be a awesome as Jody...



http://sail-oncarpets.com/gay_boy_gun_fighter.bmp

[ToddG]

Ya'll can feel free to piss on my grave if it makes you feel better in validating your carry choices due to personal insecurity and a need to beat a dead horse any chance you get, 'cause ya know the "you're going to die if you don't carry what I carry" crap hasn't occurred at any time in history on the gunternet.

So I'm wearing my 1911 right now while lying on the couch watching television not because it's the gun I've been wearing comfortably all day but because I'm insecure? I don't know, but it seems the person trying to justify his choice by making fun of other people is the one who sounds insecure. :confused:

[TGS]

So I'm wearing my 1911 right now while lying on the couch watching television not because it's the gun I've been wearing comfortably all day but because I'm insecure? I don't know, but it seems the person trying to justify his choice by making fun of other people is the one who sounds insecure. :confused:

Right........there ya go.

[Tamara]

Freaks.

I should know, I am one. To me, it's more of a hassle to get dressed multiple times a day...

This is me. I don't get anything done if I'm wearing PJs, and so I usually put on jeans and shoes and the associated tactical flotsam and jetsam pretty early in the day.

I've also napped atop a 1911 or an M&P many a time. :o

[tremiles]

I think it's important to state that we all have to make compromises every day, and even if I believe that someone else's compromise doesn't work for me, it doesn't have any bearing on the validity of my compromise AND VICE-VERSA.

I'm lucky in that I'm able to wear cargo shorts to work. I actually find it to be a PITA to dump my pockets of all the crap I carry around with me every day. I'm not a switched on, condition white BTDT ninja. I'm just lazy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Chuck Haggard]

I think you just made my point for me. :cool:

I would argue the opposite, but your lightening analogy is part of the issue.

[LittleLebowski]

I try to carry at home but am guilty of trusting in dog overwatch.

[David Armstrong]

So I'm wearing my 1911 right now while lying on the couch watching television not because it's the gun I've been wearing comfortably all day but because I'm insecure? I don't know, but it seems the person trying to justify his choice by making fun of other people is the one who sounds insecure. :confused:
Does that work both ways? You know, like whenever anyone suggests a small gun is adequate for a particular situation and then assorted folks start talking about how bad a choice it is compared to their Super Double Magnum RhinoStomper .6000? I've always been of the impression that it was the craftsman, not the tool.

[ToddG]

I've always been of the impression that it was the craftsman, not the tool.

Most craftsmen I know are pretty particular about their tools.

I'm halfway through a blog post about that line (or "Indian not the arrow"). It's such a bad concept. Does anyone really think Leatham, Sevigny, or Vogel would win a major match shooting a Hi-Point? Does anyone really think that SEAL Team Eleventybillion would be just as effective if we took away their guns, armor, comms, explosives, night vision, and vehicles?

[ACP230]

I saw Leatham on the line at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot.
I was quite convinced that he could still have won with equipment that was a lot worse than what he had.
Ditto for lots of other top shooters at the pin tables.

I started out shooting an almost-stock 1911 (not an A1 just a 1911). I was convinced I could swap guns with the top shooters and they
would proceed to beat me with my own gun.

(Trivia was, sadly, always my best event at the match.)

How far down the equipment roster that would still obtain is an interesting thing to think about.

I think that, once I got a custom pin gun, I could have beaten some of the top shooters if they were forced to use flintlock single shots. :D

[ToddG]

I started out shooting an almost-stock 1911 (not an A1 just a 1911). I was convinced I could swap guns with the top shooters and they would proceed to beat me with my own gun.

I think that's a common misconception. While there are certainly some top shooters who are very versatile, many are not. I've watched more than one pick up, e.g., a DA/SA gun and get totally flummoxed. One year at IDPA Nationals I was running the Beretta "demo" booth and watched quite a few nationally recognizable competitors unable to clean a 6-plate rack at ~7yd with 10 rounds in a Cougar chambered for 357 SIG.

Years ago I attended a class from a highly respected competitor who told the students (all of whom were using DA/SA guns) that the easiest thing to do with a DA/SA gun was just to crank off the DA round into the berm as fast as possible so you could get to the "shootable trigger." That generated debate.

But my point wasn't whether Super-Shooter-XYZ was capable of operating a less familiar gun, it's whether he'd be willing to pick up that less familiar gun, or a gun without the sights/trigger/grip he liked, and go compete against a fellow Super Shooter without feeling disadvantaged.

I'm not saying "it's the arrow, not the Indian." I'm saying that both matter.

[David Armstrong]

Most craftsmen I know are pretty particular about their tools.

I'm halfway through a blog post about that line (or "Indian not the arrow"). It's such a bad concept. Does anyone really think Leatham, Sevigny, or Vogel would win a major match shooting a Hi-Point? Does anyone really think that SEAL Team Eleventybillion would be just as effective if we took away their guns, armor, comms, explosives, night vision, and vehicles?
Perhaps the better way to phrase that would be does anyone really think that SEAL Team XXXX would be any less effective if they carried Glock 17s or Colt 1911s or Ruger Security Sixes? Or does anyone thank that if Fat Fred the gunstore commando were given one of Robbie's custom 1911s he would immediately change form a "D" class shooter to an "A" class? One can be particular about their tools, but a craftsman who can only work with one particular tool is not much of a craftsman, IMO, and the best tool won't make a klutz intocraftsmanman. But I wouldn't be surprised if Leatham et al went to a local IPSC match and scored fairly well using a High Point. It seems there are two distinctly different issues that keep passinging each other. One is "how does Gun X compare to Gun Y" which is nice, but it is very different than "Given this situation, will Gun X solve the problem or do you have to have Gun Y?" For example, I shot a local Bianchi Cup match with Jerry Mikulek once. His gun cratered on one of the early stages. One of the shooters loaned him a stock S&W Mdl 19, Jerry airgunned it a couple of times, and then went on to win the match. Would he have scored more points with his custom gun? Sure. Did he need the custom gun to take care of the problem? Obviously not.

Heck, I think you porvide a pretty good example. I'm basically carrying the same guns I've used and worked with for 20+years. You have gone through more guns than small town gun shop:D. Sure you have your preferences, but do you really think that were you to get into a shooting incident that your chances of survival would be substantially impaired carrying any of the guns you've worn over the last decade, assuming the reliability bugs had been worked out on all of them?

[JodyH]

Not everyone can be a awesome as Jody...
/THREAD

:cool:

[ToddG]

Or does anyone thank that if Fat Fred the gunstore commando were given one of Robbie's custom 1911s he would immediately change form a "D" class shooter to an "A" class?

Which is why I said it's not one or the other, but both: the Indian and the arrow. You could give a pig the best gun in the world and it probably wouldn't be any better a shooter than if you gave it, uh, no gun at all. But top level competitors don't customize their guns just for the fun of it... they try to wring performance out of the gun that wouldn't be there otherwise.


But I wouldn't be surprised if Leatham et al went to a local IPSC match and scored fairly well using a High Point.

And if Sevigny or Vogel were there shooting that same local match with their favorite gear, Robbie would feel disadvantaged.. rightfully so. Leatham's skill compared to the typical club shooter is enough to overcome the equipment disadvantage, but compared to someone who's also at the top of the game? No.


Sure you have your preferences, but do you really think that were you to get into a shooting incident that your chances of survival would be substantially impaired carrying any of the guns you've worn over the last decade, assuming the reliability bugs had been worked out on all of them?

Phrased the way you did ("substantially"), I'd say probably not. By the same token, if you asked, "If you didn't practice for six months would you be substantially impaired," I'd also say probably not in terms of typical DGUs. But the reason I practice so much -- and the reason why I choose the guns I do -- is in large part about wanting to be prepared for something worse than a "typical DGU." All you have to do is look at Tom Givens's database and you see a ridiculous range of problems that just the people who've trained at his one school have faced. From point blank range to 25+ yards across the street, from single opponents to small armies, there's a whole host of people who haven't been in a gunfight that totaled 3.4 rounds.

[David Armstrong]

Which is why I said it's not one or the other, but both: the Indian and the arrow. You could give a pig the best gun in the world and it probably wouldn't be any better a shooter than if you gave it, uh, no gun at all. But top level competitors don't customize their guns just for the fun of it... they try to wring performance out of the gun that wouldn't be there otherwise.
I wouldn't disagree with that, but again I think it misses the point. The fraction of second difference between times for top shooters and such may make a difference for a match, but in the real world I just haven't seen it make a difference if you can get your shot off in .98 seconds as opposed to .97 seconds, or if your group measured 1" as opposed 1.1".


And if Sevigny or Vogel were there shooting that same local match with their favorite gear, Robbie would feel disadvantaged.. rightfully so. Leatham's skill compared to the typical club shooter is enough to overcome the equipment disadvantage, but compared to someone who's also at the top of the game? No.
Again I would question the practical difference there, particularly as it relates to the craftsman/tool issue.



Phrased the way you did ("substantially"), I'd say probably not. By the same token, if you asked, "If you didn't practice for six months would you be substantially impaired," I'd also say probably not in terms of typical DGUs. But the reason I practice so much -- and the reason why I choose the guns I do -- is in large part about wanting to be prepared for something worse than a "typical DGU." All you have to do is look at Tom Givens's database and you see a ridiculous range of problems that just the people who've trained at his one school have faced. From point blank range to 25+ yards across the street, from single opponents to small armies, there's a whole host of people who haven't been in a gunfight that totaled 3.4 rounds.
And I doubt that you find many, if any, of those fights where the equipment made that much of a difference among CCW holders assuming as always any quality, reliable make. But tha tbrings us back to the ever-present issue....is there really that much difference between the shooter who is prepared for 99.99% of the situations and the shooter who is prepared for 99.995%? Nobody can be prepared for everything, all selections are a compromise, TANSTAFL, etc. Heck, I suppose we could argue about if it is truly point-blank range the Taurus Judge with buckshot becomes a great choice, and if it is a single assailant at 50 yard the TC Contender with a scope become a great choice and if there is a huge horde the PMR 30 becomes a great choice. But given that we don't know those things in advance it seems pretty much ANY quality handgun becomes a reasonable choice for general personal defense. There are reasons small, compact, low-capacity handguns seem to be rather successful in the personal defense world. A larger gun may make a difference just as a smaller gun may make a difference, one caliber may make a difference one time and another caliber the difference the next time, an auto may make the difference one time and a revolver the next. Given that one can't predict that in advance I just don't understand the reasoning behind objecting to ANY choice that meets certain basic parameters, particularly when it has a fairly good record of success behind it.

[peterb]

Given that one can't predict that in advance I just don't understand the reasoning behind objecting to ANY choice that meets certain basic parameters, particularly when it has a fairly good record of success behind it.

But then we have to agree on those "certain basic parameters", and off we go again....:D

[GJM]

My wife was perusing Boston pictures tonight, and thinks she spotted a PF member. He is the guy in the basketball shorts, obviously wearing the lounge around revolver. She was pretty sure he wasn't Jody, but couldn't be sure.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps02ca4ec2.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps02ca4ec2.jpg.html)

[JDM]

No way. That guy is way too tall to be Jody. :p

[JodyH]

My wife was perusing Boston pictures tonight, and thinks she spotted a PF member. He is the guy in the basketball shorts, obviously wearing the lounge around revolver. She was pretty sure he wasn't Jody, but couldn't be sure.
Did she get the vapors and swoon a little?
That's the only way to know for sure if she saw my picture.

:cool:

[ToddG]

Did she get the vapors and swoon a little?
That's the only way to know for sure if she saw my picture.

Dude... I don't care what anyone says, you don't smell that bad.

[Casual Friday]

I've always been of the impression that it was the craftsman, not the tool.

Well, kinda...A real craftsman will be able to make due with the tools at hand, but sub par equipment would never be his first choice.


Most craftsmen I know are pretty particular about their tools.

Game, set, match. As a craftsman who relies on his tools to feed his family, I demand the very best at all times. Sure, you could give me a shop full of Grizzly Industrial machinery and a tool box full of Kobalt stuff from Lowe's and I could build you a beautiful kitchen, but rest assured it would not be faster, easier, nor would it be very efficient.

I actually do wear gym shorts around the house on occasion and still manage to carry a full size pistol. I much prefer cargo shorts though for the ability to wear a belt.

[Tamara]

...there's a whole host of people who haven't been in a gunfight that totaled 3.4 rounds.

3.4 rds...

Doesn't the NYPD "Firearms Discharge Report" cover every firearms discharge? 'Cause if you average in every time someone cranks one off into the locker room wall, it pulls down the average from the Diallos and Empire State Buildings pretty quickly... :o

[ToddG]

Doesn't the NYPD "Firearms Discharge Report" cover every firearms discharge?

Correct. While accidental discharges are actually a pretty small number, the NYPD total also includes other things like euthanizing animals hit by cars.

[Lost River]

Because of the threat from extreme "Right Wingers" who think that everyone has the right to arm bears, I lounge around in my gym shorts with my Browning Auto 5. Nothing less than a Belgian Beauty is going to make me feel secure for a "lounge around gun".

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/BrowningAuto5_zps3c15f0af.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/BrowningAuto5_zps3c15f0af.jpg.html)

[LittleLebowski]

Nothing less than a Belgian Beauty is going to make me feel secure for a "lounge around gun".


Concur :D

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/IMG_0752.jpg

[Kyle Reese]

Nice FAL. Now all you need is a suppressor for it and some Rhodesian camo. :)

[Lost River]

Nice looking Malinois. :D

I have a few puncture marks from my partners old dog coming through the sleeve and nailing me. Good times, Great dogs!

[ToddG]

Nice FAL. Now all you need is a suppressor for it and some Rhodesian camo. :)

Then he'd need a ridgeback in addition to the Malinois.

[JHC]

Nice FAL. Now all you need is a suppressor for it and some Rhodesian camo. :)

And the African bush short shorts.

[David Armstrong]

3.4 rds...

Doesn't the NYPD "Firearms Discharge Report" cover every firearms discharge? 'Cause if you average in every time someone cranks one off into the locker room wall, it pulls down the average from the Diallos and Empire State Buildings pretty quickly... :o
There is an umbrella-type section with every discharge, but they also break it down in various categories (adversarial, animal threat, unauthorized use, etc.) and will also give a brief narrative of each gunfight.

[David Armstrong]

Then he'd need a ridgeback in addition to the Malinois.
Everybody needs a ridgeback!:)

[LittleLebowski]

Everybody needs a ridgeback!:)

Usually one Malinois is more than enough dog for any dog owner :D I remember hearing a very Malinois specific command used by Todd and thinking "I say that all of the time to my Mal." The command was "relax" :D

[Chuck Whitlock]

Usually one Malinois is more than enough dog for any dog owner :D I remember hearing a very Malinois specific command used by Todd and thinking "I say that all of the time to my Mal." The command was "relax" :D

Reminds me of a cop K9 forum comparing GSDs to Mals. GSDs were strong-willed and could be devious....Mals are fur-covered chainsaws on meth!

[David Armstrong]

Usually one Malinois is more than enough dog for any dog owner :D I remember hearing a very Malinois specific command used by Todd and thinking "I say that all of the time to my Mal." The command was "relax" :D
I appreciate Mals. I love ridgies. Something about a dog that climbs trees and fights lions just gives me the vapors!:cool:

[GJM]

My wife has been reading a number of war dog books lately, and the training and personality of successful war dogs is fascinating. Our Vizsla, for example, has almost every quality of a great war dog except she wouldn't bite any one or anything. Seems like successful war dogs really do enjoy biting.

[peterb]

My wife has been reading a number of war dog books lately, and the training and personality of successful war dogs is fascinating. Our Vizsla, for example, has almost every quality of a great war dog except she wouldn't bite any one or anything. Seems like successful war dogs really do enjoy biting.

Here's a great example of a dog that enjoys biting, but is not aggressive -- he's very relaxed. It's all a game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI

[JodyH]

Used my lounge around gun this weekend.
Took a roadtrip to Albuquerque for Grapplefest.
Finally made it to the hotel room around 9:30pm.
Showered, put on some shorts and laid down to read on my Kindle.
Wife calls from the bathroom... "I forgot my toiletries bag in the car".
No problem.
Throw on a T-shirt and some sandals, slip the Clip-Grip'd J-frame into my waistband at 1 o'clock and my Surefire Aviator in at 10 o'clock and trot down to the parking lot of the hotel to grab her bag.
Didn't have to put back on pants, belt and holster up for a 5 minute trot to the car.
Didn't have to run down there unarmed.

It's good to have options.
:cool:

[JHC]

Sandals are more dangerous than being "under-gunned". ;)

[FotoTomas]

Options are good.

So are Belgium Malinois. My oldest son has two puppies right now. His home is now destroyed. One of my friends had a Mal for a working dog. I was able to assist and handle him for several drug busts at my part time gig. I might well end up with one of my son's pair. Looking forward to it. Maybe. :)

I will admit I left my lounge around 638 at home for my current road trip. Will make do with my PM9.

[JodyH]

Sandals are more dangerous than being "under-gunned". ;)
Heck, I almost got a FAST coin wearing sandals.

[ToddG]

So are Belgium Malinois. My oldest son has two puppies right now. His home is now destroyed.

Well duh. :cool:

Freyja, at 7wk old, learned to climb up vertical baby gates or even cardboard boxes. We couldn't keep her in one place with anything less than an actual cage.


Heck, I almost got a FAST coin wearing sandals.

Or maybe you didn't get one because of the sandals... :cool:

[JodyH]

Or maybe you didn't get one because of the sandals... :cool:
Lack of traction wasn't my main malfunction.

[ToddG]

Lack of traction wasn't my main malfunction.

Yeah, but I probably added like three seconds to your run just to spite your sandals. Did I forget to mention that in class? My bad...

[imp1295]

For the sake of levity, I'm the opposite...

I can't carry all day because the DoD believes I should be unarmed while on post. I come home, and strap on a JM custom with an M&P and lounge around with a belt, holster and pistol until I go to sleep.

YMMV...

[LSP972]

Used my lounge around gun this weekend.
Took a roadtrip to Albuquerque for Grapplefest.
Finally made it to the hotel room around 9:30pm.
Showered, put on some shorts and laid down to read on my Kindle.
Wife calls from the bathroom... "I forgot my toiletries bag in the car".
No problem.
Throw on a T-shirt and some sandals, slip the Clip-Grip'd J-frame into my waistband at 1 o'clock and my Surefire Aviator in at 10 o'clock and trot down to the parking lot of the hotel to grab her bag.
Didn't have to put back on pants, belt and holster up for a 5 minute trot to the car.
Didn't have to run down there unarmed.

It's good to have options.
:cool:

I finished up my practice session yesterday by putting 25 rounds through my beat-up, old 360PD (.38s, of course; one's level of masochism fades in direct proportion to advancing age).

The expert in the stall next to me, as he was un-casing his VolksPistole, said, "The Beretta Pico is gonna make that old thing obsolete." Having no clue what a Beretta Pico was/is, I just gave him my standard reaction to gun range commando proclamations- a vacant look with a slight smile.

Now that I know what a Beretta Pico is, that was the proper reaction...:rolleyes:

.

[Tamara]

I finished up my practice session yesterday by putting 25 rounds through my beat-up, old 360PD

There is no such thing as an old 360PD. :p

[Clyde from Carolina]

There is no such thing as an old 360PD. :p

Speak it! ;)

[Al T.]

Mine certainly qualifies as "beat-up" though. At least three years of ankle carry (before I saw the error of my ways) in an UM nylon finish remover holster sure didn't help.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Mine certainly qualifies as "beat-up" though. At least three years of ankle carry (before I saw the error of my ways) in an UM nylon finish remover holster sure didn't help.

I hear ya. Here's an "old" 642-1 that has a pretty beat-up Renegade ankle rig to go with it--complete with custom thumb break and plenty of wear and repaired wear through. About ten years on this rig. We laugh because to Curio and Relic collectors, anything much under fifty years old is brand new. ;)

http://www.fototime.com/1203141A1144FAD/standard.jpg

[LSP972]

There is no such thing as an old 360PD. :p

Okay, okay, I forgot there are some P&R purists here (even though J frames were never recessed). I bought this one new eleven years ago... and that steenkin lock blew me away. First I'd heard of it...

Just so you'll know I'm not a total heathen, my '67 vintage M-37 is in a safe place, ready for The Revolution; as are my two late-70s vintage M-66s.;)

.

[LSP972]

At least three years of ankle carry (before I saw the error of my ways) in an UM nylon finish remover holster sure didn't help.

I assume you're referring to the UM "holster" when you say error?

Ken Null ANK, baby... the Cadillac of them all.;)

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I assume you're referring to the UM "holster" when you say error?

Ken Null ANK, baby... the Cadillac of them all.;)

.

I have to STRONGLY disagree with the implied slight on your post sir. The Uncle Mikes' ankle rig has proven for my uses to be one of the very best possible choices for my BUG.

I turned Paul Sharp onto my slightly mod'd version of the standard UM rig for use as a hammerless snub/BUG holster, a few days later I get a text that goes "several fights and three foots chases over fences so far, ankle rig works great, thanks for the info".
I have been wearing one of these holsters for something like a decade, fast on the draw (for an ankle rig), very secure even when sprinting, jumping fences and fighting miscreants.

Most of the ankle rigs made for guns like 642s actually work very poorly when put to the test, the UM has proven itself. Sometimes you can get more value than you paid for.

[LSP972]

Well, there was nothing implied about it; the Uncle Mike's nylon "holsters" (to include a couple of ankle rigs) I have been exposed to were, in my estimation, and with one exception, junk. The exception is their little pocket holster. I'm glad yours has worked for you, but I personally have no use for them. One man's drink, etc....

Yes, the Centennial/"hammerless" and Bodyguard J frames need a special holster since the usual over-the-hammer retaining strap arrangement doesn't work with them. The Null, made from horsehide and form-fitted to the revolver, had the best retention of any of the myriad ankle holsters I tried over a 30-year career.

So, I'm curious; if you liked the holster, what was your "error"?

.

[Al T.]

I think tpd was the one who turned me on to the UM. My finish wear was (IMHO) a result of the dust/sand build up and the apparently soft finish on the revolver...

The error was using a BUG as a primary in possibly the slowest method of carry. I was working in sort of a NPE at the time and had to accept the limitations due to my wearing blue jeans. When I switched to cargo pants, pocket carry became the mode of choice.

[LSP972]

The error was using a BUG as a primary in possibly the slowest method of carry.

Ah.

We've all been there; I certainly was, for too many years. Funny how experience tends to vaporize all those "good ideas" we have, eh?;)

.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of our guys, a K9 officer, heard a noise outside and went out to check on his K9.

Ran into a loose pit bull that chewed the crap out of him. Tendon damage in his left arm, bite to the pec and another on the hip before the dog decided to leave.

Dog not found so rabies shots have also been started.

Our guy went outside unarmed. He has expressed that he is glad his wife and/or kids weren't out there with him.


And I know guys who give me crap for carrying my snub in my shorts when I mow the grass or take out the trash. "The first rule" and all that.

[Clyde from Carolina]

One of our guys, a K9 officer, heard a noise outside and went out to check on his K9.

Ran into a loose pit bull that chewed the crap out of him. Tendon damage in his left arm, bite to the pec and another on the hip before the dog decided to leave.

Dog not found so rabies shots have also been started.

Our guys went outside unarmed. He has expressed that he is glad his wife and/or kids weren't out there with him.


And I know guys who give me crap for carrying my snub in my shorts when I mow the grass or take out the trash. "The first rule" and all that.

Yup, and all the ones I know who give you crap for that kind of thing never really needed one, if you know what I mean. All the ones who ever had need for one "get it" -- at least in my circle.

I hope the others never really need one and have left it in the safe or the car or the house or whatever.

We might quibble over what constitutes an adequate baseline for a defensive gun in a given situation, but Rule # 1 dictates we at least HAVE A GUN. Hopefully everybody reading this here at least agrees on that much.

[LSP972]

.


And I know guys who give me crap for carrying my snub in my shorts when I mow the grass or take out the trash. "The first rule" and all that.

I gave up, long ago, worrying about clowns like that. You would think your professional colleagues, at least, would "get it".

Sadly, most don't these days. Even before I retired, I had taken a "Let them eat cake" attitude toward these types. Once I was no longer involved in the training loop, idiots were no longer my concern. It's simply not worth the effort to try and educate/convince them; and I don't give a fat rat's ass what they may think about my personal habits.

I recently scored a BIG snubby; a cherry S&W M-242. Not sure what I'm going to DO with it... But it's certainly cool...

.

[Al T.]

That 242 may be like my "impulse purchase" M64 2 inch - shoots much better than I expected. :cool:

[lightning fast]

One of our guys, a K9 officer, heard a noise outside and went out to check on his K9.

Ran into a loose pit bull that chewed the crap out of him. Tendon damage in his left arm, bite to the pec and another on the hip before the dog decided to leave.

Dog not found so rabies shots have also been started.

Our guy went outside unarmed. He has expressed that he is glad his wife and/or kids weren't out there with him.


And I know guys who give me crap for carrying my snub in my shorts when I mow the grass or take out the trash. "The first rule" and all that.

So he heard a sound of distress, and decided to check it out without grabbing a potentially useful tool [of any kind]?
Hmm.

[orionz06]

And I know guys who give me crap for carrying my snub in my shorts when I mow the grass or take out the trash. "The first rule" and all that.

I mow the grass with a G17 and a knife, just because I can. I also wear Sordins for hearing and more often than not Oakleys. If it is not hard why not?

[LittleLebowski]

So he heard a sound of distress, and decided to check it out without grabbing a potentially useful tool [of any kind]?
Hmm.

Yup, sounds like he was not perfect.

[Sparks2112]

After talking with more than a few people who have put a large number of other people in the dirt for a living I've noticed something.

People who have never done, worry about what equipment they have. People who have done, worry about making what equipment they have work.

That's not to say I don't want to set myself up for success, just that I'm not AS worried about certain things as much as I used to be.

[Al T.]

Still hard to get away from that Pearl of wisdom from Mark Moritz, "first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun". While not my first choice, we've had several successful local defensive shootings with sub-optimum handguns.

[Chuck Haggard]

So he heard a sound of distress, and decided to check it out without grabbing a potentially useful tool [of any kind]?
Hmm.

When a guy assumes that maybe its raccoons getting into the dog food bin in the shed again he might make a poor judgment call.


In first hand conversation he told me "I ain't never doing that shit again". I suspect he will be armed from now on when he steps outside.

[David Armstrong]

Still hard to get away from that Pearl of wisdom from Mark Moritz, "first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun". While not my first choice, we've had several successful local defensive shootings with sub-optimum handguns.

Yep. I've seen a whole lot of shootings where the super-duper gun didn't seem to be that good and a whole lot where a sub-optimal worked great. Personally I'm still trying to figure out how the BGs evolved so quickly that perfectly acceptable rounds and guns from 40 years ago somehow quit working these days???

[LittleLebowski]

Yep. I've seen a whole lot of shootings where the super-duper gun didn't seem to be that good and a whole lot where a sub-optimal worked great. Personally I'm still trying to figure out how the BGs evolved so quickly that perfectly acceptable rounds and guns from 40 years ago somehow quit working these days???

If it works for you, rock on and be happy for yourself. Personally, I like to grab the best tools available and I like to think that if in 20-40 years, something comes along that is better; I won't be so mentally ossified as to not take a better tool for the job.

[MDS]

If it works for you, rock on and be happy for yourself. Personally, I like to grab the best tools available and I like to think that if in 20-40 years, something comes along that is better; I won't be so mentally ossified as to not take a better tool for the job.

If keeping up with the times works for you, rock on and be happy for yourself. Personally, I like to debate things on every forum available and I like to think that if in 20-40 years, something comes along that is better; I won't be so mentally ossified as to not take the opportunity to bash people for evolving.

;)

[LittleLebowski]

The important decision to make is what "pinnacle" of technology one is deciding to embrace as good enough for anything and anything that is comes out after the fact is merely modern frippery. Remember, Col Cooper's adoption of the 1911 was frowned upon but why limit yourself to that era? What about SA revolvers? Are crooks tougher than when the Peacemaker ruled the land? DAs are just modern frippery much like smokeless powder and anything more advanced than the atlatl because the good guys did well enough with the tools available to them then so therefore, anything more advanced than that is....tom foolery.

[TCinVA]

So I'm late to this discussion. I've had some time to do some lounging lately and I guess it's time for a confessional:

At the moment, I'm wearing no gun at all. Sitting in a comfy chair in the living room on my laptop in my workout clothes, no gun on. Next to me there's a Glock 17 with a CT grip, a Surefire light mounted, and a 31 round mag in the grip loaded with Speer Gold Dots. I figure that will get me down the hallway to the carbine if things get bad. Often when I'm wearing gym shorts or something similar I'll have the LCP or the S&W 317 in the pocket just because of weight. Typically there's another pistol within wingspan or within a few feet.

...but I don't have kids to worry about. So I can do something like cook with my iPad going on the table and a P30 or a Glock sitting next to it without worrying about a curtain climber getting their hands on it. If that changed, a J frame tucked into my waistband would get bumped up a notch or three on the scale-o-carrying.

I spent the weekend doing various chores outdoors. I'm always armed when I leave the house, even if it's to do nothing more than get the mail. If it's just a short trip I'll stick my P30 in my waistband and handle it. Sometimes in the holster, often out of the holster. (I don't do this with Glocks...only double-action triggers) When I'm grilling or doing other outdoor-ish stuff at home that requires only brief trips outside, it's usually just P30 in the waistband and maybe my BOB clipped to a belt-loop.

I wouldn't be the least bit averse to using a J frame as a lounge around gun because something on me is better than something just in wingspan or in the next room.

The J frame isn't what I would pick if I had any idea a gunfight will happen. It isn't what I'd pick if I thought one was even somewhat likely to occur. But there is a time and place for a rule 1 gun (what I consider a J frame) in just about every person's daily life if they're truly after being armed as much of the time as humanly possible. If they're making the decision intelligently based on their situation, I don't get to worked up about what other people are using for rule 1. I mean, if you want to shower with a carbine on I'm cool with it.

[LittleLebowski]

I come back to something I've said before: gun nearby but safely stowed and large, toothy, guard dog in the house.

[TCinVA]

I come back to something I've said before: gun nearby but safely stowed and large, toothy, guard dog in the house.

That's not a bad plan...but proper care and management of a large toothy dog is more effort than I'm willing to invest. Besides, I think it's more humane to just shoot the bad guy instead of letting Cujo use him as a chew toy. Less entertaining, certainly...but more humane. ;)

I should note that in my grandmother's old neighborhood, where I could watch people dealing crack when planting her flowers, I stayed in my full carry gear when I wasn't in the shower or sleeping. In my neighborhood I don't think there has ever been a violent crime. In her old neighborhood (where we still stay on occasion) I'm pretty sure there were maybe only two people within a 4 block radius that didn't have a felony on their rap sheet. Thankfully most of the people there seemed to be as scared of a small ankle-biting dog that was too lazy to attack anything (unless by "attack" you mean "pee on the carpet", in which case it was cujo on steroids. 99% of it's body weight had to be bladder) and when skeezy people tried stuff I usually had the good fortune to be there and convince them that they really shouldn't.

[NEPAKevin]

My logic may be flawed, but my way of thinking is that if I have time to go get a gun and deal with a problem, then I probably have time to avoid the problem. OTOH, if I don't have time to avoid, then the need is imminent and there for the tools to deal with it should be at hand. To me, any plan that does this, is a better one.

[David Armstrong]

If it works for you, rock on and be happy for yourself. Personally, I like to grab the best tools available and I like to think that if in 20-40 years, something comes along that is better; I won't be so mentally ossified as to not take a better tool for the job.

I agree, as time goes on we may develop better tools. My gripe is with those that seem to believe once there is a better tool the older tool somehow ceases to function at all and/or the job can no longer be done without using the latest and greatest tool. A Glock 32 in 357 is the newer tool, but a Model 65 in .357 will still do a darned good job of stopping badguys.

[Tamara]

I recently scored a BIG snubby; a cherry S&W M-242. Not sure what I'm going to DO with it...

This is my very jealous face. (I've carried its 5-shot cousin, a 296, in a variety of off-body purses and bags for years...)

[Al T.]

Not sure what I'm going to DO with it...

:cool: Sell it to Tam!

[Chuck Haggard]

This is my very jealous face. (I've carried its 5-shot cousin, a 296, in a variety of off-body purses and bags for years...)

So I probably shouldn't mention that I had one that was unfired, shot two qual courses with it, then decided it was too big for what I wanted to do with it and sold the gun just awhile back?

[LSP972]

... it was too big for what I wanted to do with it ...

Yeah, its pretty big (compared to a J frame). But its just... cool. So I think I'll keep it.

Would make one hell of a shower gun...

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yeah, its pretty big (compared to a J frame). But its just... cool. So I think I'll keep it.

Would make one hell of a shower gun...

.

I should have kept it and used it for a parka pocket gun, but I was going through a broke phase and needed money for another project that would be less niche-y.

I was going to AIWB that gun but it was just too damn big. I greatly prefer snubs for that role. A 640 works but I'd like something a wee bit bigger. I need someone to make a no lock, round butt 2" model 64 in .357mag with a front sight I can swap out easily, or an XS BD. A scandium frame and plain stainless cylinder would be nice while they are building my gun.

[Al T.]

no lock, round butt 2" model 64 in .357mag

Start with a M65, cut judiciously and there ya go! I've round butted a M65 4 inch, balances nicely. :)

[LSP972]

tpd223, I have always wondered why S&W never made a Ti-Scan K frame. A gun like the 242, but with a six-shot K frame/cylinder, would indeed be the cat's ass. Even better would be a 3" RB example, a'la the M-13 (but with a skinny barrel). THAT one I'd pay large for... MIM internals and all.

Agreed, as it is the 242 would be a good "coat pocket" gun. However, since there are maybe two days a year down here when one needs something heavier than a windbreaker...:rolleyes:

Every time I bitch about the heat and humidity in this miserable state, a pal who used to live in the Northern Tier tells me its preferable to moderate summers and icy/snowy winters. Perhaps; but I just spent the last two days on the range. Temperature was in the low 90s, with moderate humidity. IOW, not nearly as bad as its going to get here shortly. And it still kicked my ass.

Sigh. Getting old sucks... truly.

Okay, no more thread drift. Now that I've figured out the 242 is too big to carry (for me, anyway), I'm seriously contemplating taking the advice of a poster on another board and getting my near-new 2" RB M-12 refinished so it won't rust immediately while I carry it. Then again, I'm only kidding myself... I really don't see me going full retro back to a wheel gun as a primary.

.

[Tamara]

tpd223, I have always wondered why S&W never made a Ti-Scan K frame. A gun like the 242, but with a six-shot K frame/cylinder, would indeed be the cat's ass. Even better would be a 3" RB example, a'la the M-13 (but with a skinny barrel). THAT one I'd pay large for... MIM internals and all.

386.

There's not that much size difference between the K and L. Slap a Bowen or C&S rear on it and Bob's your uncle.

[Chuck Haggard]

There's not that much size difference between the K and L

There is when its stuck down my pants.

[LSP972]

386.

There's not that much size difference between the K and L.

I am aware of the 386.

Perception is relative; to me, there is a considerable difference between a K and L frame cylinder when you're talking IWB carry.

.

[David Armstrong]

I am aware of the 386.

Perception is relative; to me, there is a considerable difference between a K and L frame cylinder when you're talking IWB carry.

.
Agreed. I find the K-frame to be very comfortable to carry while the L-frame is not comfortable at all. It just feels big.

[Tamara]

There is when its stuck down my pants.

They use the same flippin' holsters! I used the same Bianchi 3S Pistol Pocket for 13/65s and a 696 for years. How many mattresses can you feel a pea through? :p

[rob_s]

Without reading through the whole thread, or getting into whether or not a .38 snubnose carries mass approval, is there any viable solution that people are happy with that combines holster-less carry and a laser grip?

[Tamara]

Without reading through the whole thread, or getting into whether or not a .38 snubnose carries mass approval, is there any viable solution that people are happy with that combines holster-less carry and a laser grip?

Do those clipdraw thingies work with CTC grips? (I assume so, but I never tried because grownups carry their heaters in holsters. ;) )

EDIT: Wait, no they wouldn't, because the spring thing is where the laser goes... Nevah mind! :o

[mnealtx]

Do those clipdraw thingies work with CTC grips? (I assume so, but I never tried because grownups carry their heaters in holsters. ;) )

EDIT: Wait, no they wouldn't, because the spring thing is where the laser goes... Nevah mind! :o


Left-handed clipdraw and carry cavalry?

[JodyH]

Left-handed clipdraw and carry cavalry?
And you're going to swing the cylinder out how?

[TCinVA]

Without reading through the whole thread, or getting into whether or not a .38 snubnose carries mass approval, is there any viable solution that people are happy with that combines holster-less carry and a laser grip?

I haven't found one yet.

[David Armstrong]

Without reading through the whole thread, or getting into whether or not a .38 snubnose carries mass approval, is there any viable solution that people are happy with that combines holster-less carry and a laser grip?
Pocket carry? And not truly holsterless but pretty darned close is the old OSS string holster.

[rob_s]

Pocket carry? And not truly holsterless but pretty darned close is the old OSS string holster.

Pocket carry has never worked for me, and I don't always have pockets.

I like the simplicity of a gun that has a built in holster for the times when I'd use the .38. Right now I carry it in a Dark Star, but I don't always have a belt either.

[NEPAKevin]

Pocket carry has never worked for me, and I don't always have pockets.



I have tried to find sweats and shorts with pockets, but even when they do, the pockets in comfy pants are often too small and the elastic/strings are not strong enough to properly support even an airweight j-frame with out loss of circulation.

BTW, if you want to see some old school picket carry, watch Kirk Douglas in Detective Story(1951). :)


http://youtu.be/bg34MHzWhk8

[JJN]

I started a thread on TPI with my solution to carrying a CTC Lasergripped j-frame w/o holster. http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13208.
Jon

[mnealtx]

And you're going to swing the cylinder out how?

I didn't realize the spring arm was long enough to interfere with the cylinder.

[rob_s]

I started a thread on TPI with my solution to carrying a CTC Lasergripped j-frame w/o holster. http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13208.
Jon

Looks like it requires registration & login to view.

Can you just post the highlights here?

[TCinVA]

Looks like it requires registration & login to view.

Can you just post the highlights here?

Cleverly molded piece of kydex molded to the shape of the grip so it clears the laser and then ranger-banded on.

[gunkid]

skill with that gun and training at how to maximally dominate that particular theater of operations (mostly about cover). Look, civilian defense rarely means firing the gun, IF you get it out and "on' the perp in a timely fashion, that is. Also, MISSES often convince them to leave. About 5% of the time, you have to hit them, but often, poor hits and/or mere .22lr's suffice. 2% of the time, you have to hit them hard, solidly and repeatedly.

[LittleLebowski]

skill with that gun and training at how to maximally dominate that particular theater of operations (mostly about cover). Look, civilian defense rarely means firing the gun, IF you get it out and "on' the perp in a timely fashion, that is. Also, MISSES often convince them to leave. About 5% of the time, you have to hit them, but often, poor hits and/or mere .22lr's suffice. 2% of the time, you have to hit them hard, solidly and repeatedly.

I always practice brandishing over shooting. Just makes sense.

[JV_]

I always practice brandishing over shooting. Just makes sense.Our county/state is only successful in convicting 4.6250% of the time.

[ToddG]

I always practice brandishing over shooting. Just makes sense.

That's one of the big advantages of open carry: you're brandishing before you even decide to brandish. It's a pre-fight brandish. Scares away the perps.

[LittleLebowski]

That's one of the big advantages of open carry: you're brandishing before you even decide to brandish. It's a pre-fight brandish. Scares away the perps.

Especially in case of TEOTWAWKI.

[ToddG]

TEOTWAsWeKnowIt is for sissies. Real men prepare for the unknown.

[David Armstrong]

If it cannot be known, how can one prepare for it??;)

[peterb]

If it cannot be known, how can one prepare for it??;)

Ah. You assume that because it is NOT known, it CANNOT be known. There lies the flaw in your thinking. ;)

[David Armstrong]

Ah. You assume that because it is NOT known, it CANNOT be known. There lies the flaw in your thinking. ;)
But if it is known how can it unknown? And if it is unknown then one cannot prepare for it, as it is unknown what to prepare for, since if one is preparing for it surely it has become known?? Lead me, oh sensei!:p

[ToddG]

If it cannot be known, how can one prepare for it??;)

That is the sound of one hand clapping alone in the forest. Meditate on this.

[MDS]

That is the sound of one hand clapping alone in the forest. Meditate on this.

TL;DR - the answer is a long hike and calisthenics?

[David Armstrong]

OM Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum, Om Mani Padme Hum...........
(seeking for enlightenment in his navel....)

[Al T.]

I like ice cream. :) Pi is too fattening....

[rob_s]

Back to the original subject, I'm starting to lean towards giving a Kahr PM9 with laser a try and adding a universal clipdraw. Anyone tried this? Anyone that owns either of these products alone see any roadblocks to making this work?

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9-w-CT-Laser-Sight.asp

http://www.clipdraw.com/store/index.php?rn=395&action=show_detail

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm comfortable with the J frames being carried sans holster, but clipping a pistol in my waistband not so much, generally speaking, although I had a KT P32 that I used as a clipped into the shorts gun for awhile. The ability to block the hammer while "holstering" was a plus. I think a PM9 would be too light in the trigger for my taste, in this role anyway.

[rob_s]

I'm comfortable with the J frames being carried sans holster, but clipping a pistol in my waistband not so much, generally speaking, although I had a KT P32 that I used as a clipped into the shorts gun for awhile. The ability to block the hammer while "holstering" was a plus. I think a PM9 would be too light in the trigger for my taste, in this role anyway.

I'm keeping that in mind as well, but I'm more interested in items that may be less-obvious and that only those that have tried individual pieces of my proposed solution (PM9, CT for same, Universal Clipdraw) or some combination thereof would be familiar with.

[Chuck Haggard]

The PM9 piece I can talk about; I have had three PM9s, only one of them worked, and that one is picky about carry ammo. Won't feed Gold Dots at all, as an example.

Be ready for a brand new PM9 to have to go right back to the factory, maybe a couple of times, before they get it right.

The one PM9 that works was taken by my wife, so I mainly get to watch her shoot that gun.


I've thought about doing what you are thinking of, except with a S&W Shield instead.

[Nephrology]

I would have bought a Shield in 9mm instead of my J frame had the Good Lord of Gun Store Deals not provided me with a LNIB 442 for 279 dollars, plus an individual willing to sell me 500 rounds of .38 factory ammo for 100 bucks.

[rob_s]

I've thought about doing what you are thinking of, except with a S&W Shield instead.

I'm also considering using the Glock 26 I already own, but perhaps with an NY trigger to make me feel better about the lack of holster. There just isn't a laser option I'm happy with for the Glock.

Well, I was about to post the above and then googled and found this

http://www.lasersightsforhandguns.com/crimson-trace-laser-guard-lg-436-glock-19-23-25-26-27-28-32-33-36-38-39.html

[TCinVA]

I've thought about doing what you are thinking of, except with a S&W Shield instead.

Ditto. In my now defunct series on the Shield (thanks, hackers! You miserable cretins) I theorized that it's the logical replacement for the J frame and since it has a manual safety it would be more amenable to clip-draw type devices than many other pistols.

[JHC]

I'm also considering using the Glock 26 I already own, but perhaps with an NY trigger to make me feel better about the lack of holster. There just isn't a laser option I'm happy with for the Glock.

Well, I was about to post the above and then googled and found this

http://www.lasersightsforhandguns.com/crimson-trace-laser-guard-lg-436-glock-19-23-25-26-27-28-32-33-36-38-39.html

Rob, as a huge fan of the G26 I suggest you explore the FIST #1K in thin kydex. It's clip has a fishhook like claw inside it that holds very well, its extremely thin and compact made in the "clamshell" style of two halves stitched together. So while not quite an integrated universal clip on the pistol itself, it doesn't add much bulk or weight while covering the trigger.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ditto. In my now defunct series on the Shield (thanks, hackers! You miserable cretins) I theorized that it's the logical replacement for the J frame and since it has a manual safety it would be more amenable to clip-draw type devices than many other pistols.

That was also my train of thought.

[rob_s]

Rob, as a huge fan of the G26 I suggest you explore the FIST #1K in thin kydex. It's clip has a fishhook like claw inside it that holds very well, its extremely thin and compact made in the "clamshell" style of two halves stitched together. So while not quite an integrated universal clip on the pistol itself, it doesn't add much bulk or weight while covering the trigger.

I wonder if they make one that would work with that dust-cover laser I linked to...

[Doug]

I'm also considering using the Glock 26 I already own, but perhaps with an NY trigger to make me feel better about the lack of holster. There just isn't a laser option I'm happy with for the Glock.

Well, I was about to post the above and then googled and found this

http://www.lasersightsforhandguns.com/crimson-trace-laser-guard-lg-436-glock-19-23-25-26-27-28-32-33-36-38-39.html

Here is my experience CTC front on a Glock. It was a no go for me due to the placement of the activation switch.

http://pistol-forum.com/showpost.php?p=136961

[Dan_S]

I'm also considering using the Glock 26 I already own, but perhaps with an NY trigger to make me feel better about the lack of holster. There just isn't a laser option I'm happy with for the Glock.

Well, I was about to post the above and then googled and found this

http://www.lasersightsforhandguns.com/crimson-trace-laser-guard-lg-436-glock-19-23-25-26-27-28-32-33-36-38-39.html

Dude, just use a holster.

I've got a Raven that I used to use (not so much anymore since I switched to the Shaggy) that is absolutely amazing for what you're talking about doing, except it isn't quite so much like playing russian roulette...

http://www.ravenconcealment.com/other-holsters-vanguard-holster

[rob_s]

Dude, just use a holster.

I've got a Raven that I used to use (not so much anymore since I switched to the Shaggy) that is absolutely amazing for what you're talking about doing, except it isn't quite so much like playing russian roulette...

http://www.ravenconcealment.com/other-holsters-vanguard-holster

No, I am not going to use a holster, least of all that stupid clip on a string. I've been using a holster for 17 years, have boxes full of them, and I want one gun that I can carry without one.

[Tamara]

No, I am not going to use a holster, least of all that stupid clip on a string. I've been using a holster for 17 years, have boxes full of them, and I want one gun that I can carry without one.

Out of the hundreds of Kahr triggers I've pulled, I haven't yet encountered one I'd personally be comfortable jamming into my trousers and wandering about my daily rounds with the trigger guard uncovered.

If you're bound and determined to do something like that, at least use a real double action.

[rob_s]

Out of the hundreds of Kahr triggers I've pulled, I haven't yet encountered one I'd personally be comfortable jamming into my trousers and wandering about my daily rounds with the trigger guard uncovered.

If you're bound and determined to do something like that, at least use a real double action.

Thank you. Yes, I get that some people aren't comfortable with the concept. However, that's not the point of the discussion. This is turning into the Flex thread where the guy asked about an American station wagon and people started telling him to get a hatchback import...

There is a basic premise here:
Small
No holster
Laser

I can evaluate for myself if I find issue with a particular trigger and not using a holster. Everyone's threshold will be different. Hopefully some folks have more to contribute than "don't do that" or observations that could be made in 30 seconds with the gun.

[Tamara]

This is turning into the Flex thread where the guy asked about an American station wagon and people started telling him to get a hatchback import...

There is a basic premise here...

*looks at sub forum title*
*notes word "revolvers"*

Hey, get down with your bad self, dude. Forget I said anything.

[ToddG]

There is a basic premise here:
Small
No holster
Laser

I can evaluate for myself if I find issue with a particular trigger and not using a holster. Everyone's threshold will be different. Hopefully some folks have more to contribute than "don't do that" or observations that could be made in 30 seconds with the gun.

Ruger LCP. Laserguard. Duct tape. Drawing from "deep cover" may sting a bit.

[JodyH]

Ruger LCP. Laserguard. Duct tape. Drawing from "deep cover" may sting a bit.

I shave myself completely... COMPLETELY, every night.
So I'm good to go.

[JHC]

No, I am not going to use a holster, least of all that stupid clip on a string. I've been using a holster for 17 years, have boxes full of them, and I want one gun that I can carry without one.

Then it could be just back to the G26 but don't stop at the NY1 spring; go all the way to NY2 which IIRC is like 12 lbs which is . . . wait; not sure of the laser options though.

Just saw an ad. Never even seen a review: http://www.clipdraw.com/store/index.php?rn=392&action=show_detail

[JJN]

The clip for a KelTec P3AT can work on a Ruger LCP and does not interfere with the Laserguard. That's the only thing that works for my wife and here wardrobe. No duct tape required.

[Chuck Haggard]

Meeting the criteria you have set, I would, if it were me, go with one of the uber light J frames, a Kel Tec P3AT or one of the clones of that gun with a clip and laser added, a S&W Shield, Ruger LC9 ("real" DA trigger, safety that can be used, laser available).

[Tamara]

Meeting the criteria you have set, I would, if it were me, go with one of the uber light J frames...

That's still the berries if you just gotta carry one without a holster, but the problems is integrating some sort of waistband clip with the CTC grips. When I'm out there in August I'm going to whine and whine about them getting together with DeSantis and doing a Clip Grip with an integrated laser. I would be on that like white on rice. (Hey, they did the G10 1911 grips, right?)

[Chuck Haggard]

I use a clip type holster for that job myself. I often carry the snub in the waistband when I am doing things like mowing so I like the holster since it keeps sweat off of the gun.

The home made kydex clip onto the grip thingy someone on the site made would work too, but a store-bought solution would be rather nice.

[Shellback]

My solution: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9787-Dark-Star-Gear-AIWB-(Casual-Carry)&p=166218#post166218

[Chuck Haggard]

Well done.

[psalms144.1]

Everybody needs a ridgeback!:)I've got mine (3 month old determined to eat the entire universe!) Now someone needs to give me an FAL to go along with him...

[EM_]

That's still the berries if you just gotta carry one without a holster, but the problems is integrating some sort of waistband clip with the CTC grips. When I'm out there in August I'm going to whine and whine about them getting together with DeSantis and doing a Clip Grip with an integrated laser. I would be on that like white on rice. (Hey, they did the G10 1911 grips, right?)

Not resurrect an old thread too far from the grave, but did you get to bring this up, and any luck on it?

Love the blog, BTW!

Eric

[Tamara]

Not resurrect an old thread too far from the grave, but did you get to bring this up, and any luck on it?

Love the blog, BTW!

Eric

Thanks!

My ride back from the range two nights was with a CTC engineer. I deftly dropped every laser idea I've had into the conversation at one point or another. :)

[David Armstrong]

I've got mine (3 month old determined to eat the entire universe!) Now someone needs to give me an FAL to go along with him...
Just remember, they love to run long distances. And as I've mentioned, for the "cool factor" they are actually fairly good at climbing trees if you'll give them some incentive when they are young. We used to have people stop and look when they were driving by and would notice one up in a tree lounging around or just sitting there watching the world go by.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Thanks!

My ride back from the range two nights was with a CTC engineer. I deftly dropped every laser idea I've had into the conversation at one point or another. :)

The clip grip and CTC combo would be a selling point for a bunch of us...if that matters enough. Good for you working the Jedi mind trick on The Man. ;)

[Tamara]

The clip grip and CTC combo would be a selling point for a bunch of us...if that matters enough. Good for you working the Jedi mind trick on The Man. ;)

I'm hoping my non-VFG rail-mount light/laser idea for ARs landed on fertile ground, personally. :o

[JCS]

Found this golden thread while searching for stuff about BUGs. Only a few pages in so far but I figured I would bump it to the top for those that missed the original conversation like me.

[mmc45414]

Found this golden thread while searching for stuff about BUGs. Only a few pages in so far but I figured I would bump it to the top for those that missed the original conversation like me.

And I thank you...

My issue is also the weight. Have the CM-9, and that has become my go-to when stopping on the way home from the gym, but if I do more than walk softly it starts pulling my pants down, and that is with it tucked into the elastic of my drawers AND my shorts. So you know, that might not work on the weekends...

I wanna get a JMCK Universal IWB for the J, now that it is listed on the www.

[Dagga Boy]

I was likely on a hiatus when this bread started. Here is what is in my basketball shorts right now. These are held up with....a string. An 11 ounce gun is good for this. I have a minimalist holster I am testing and often a DSG AIWB due to its excellent design and clip staying put when drawing from gym shorts. I can get to a more substantial gun anywhere in my home. This is actually on me.

My daily wear pants weight a ton. They are full of lots of neat things. Once I get home and lock the door with a 100 pound GSD inside, I am pretty confident about my choice of wearing very comfortable clothing. I have a horrible back. My doctor gets mad about how much weight I carry around my waist when out and about in the urban jungle. At home, I want to rest. This allows me to be comfortable without being unarmed, and I am good with my Rule One gun even if others are not. It is an M&P 340 fitted with a Ti cylinder and built by JoJo's.

[blues]

Here is what is in my basketball shorts right now.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0_JN61pfNIY/SW6KKeZNdOI/AAAAAAAAAmU/Hws2Bez3hqA/s320/tmi.gif

[Dagga Boy]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0_JN61pfNIY/SW6KKeZNdOI/AAAAAAAAAmU/Hws2Bez3hqA/s320/tmi.gif

Actually lucky I am wearing shorts.....I hear all this pajama talk and wonder what they are talking about. The naked hairy guy with an 870 yelling"This is Sparta" is my first line of home defense. May as well drop the visual nuke at the beginning of the fight.

[El Cid]

Mine was an M&P 340 with CT laser grips. It's been replaced by a G43 with a TLR-6 and TTI +2.

[blues]

I've got the 642 in the pocket of my sweatpants right now and thankfully it doesn't droop like I have a potato in my drawers. :p

[JCS]

Why are crimson trace grips so popular on revolvers?

[peterb]

Why are crimson trace grips so popular on revolvers?

The sights on most j-frames are not ideal for fast accurate work, and replacing them requires machining.

[blues]

I'm sure the CT grips are great but I've personally never considered them. For the distances I can envision realistically employing the 642 they might be useful but not essential. Then again, I'm sure some of you can argue convincingly otherwise.

[Dagga Boy]

Why are crimson trace grips so popular on revolvers?

In the case of mine, it is the only one I am using them on. This gun also tends to ride as a off side backup to a primary firearm carried on the strong side. If I am using it left handed from a pocket, just by the nature of its role the chances are good I can not get it to eye level to visually verify sights.

[RevolverRob]

Why are crimson trace grips so popular on revolvers?

MAJOR improvement to the sights of J-Frames for less than the cost of milling and professionally installing high quality iron sights.

Some glow in the dark orange paint on the front sight, black sharpie on the top strap and the rear notch, and properly aligned laser grips = Excellent J-Frame sighting setup for not too much money.

Remember that the lasers are not intended to be used without sighting. They can be, for sure. But really they are just meant to great a big red bright glowing dot right at the top of the front sight. In essence think of laser grips as just giving you a glowing bullseye attached to your gun.

And that makes a hell of a difference when shooting J-frames fast and especially at distance...it really improves the sight picture at distance with a J-Frame. Yes, you can shoot a J-Frame with stock irons okay, but why would you?

[Leroy Suggs]

Lasers on a J =
1.Better hits in low light.
2. Better hits from retention.
3. Better hits from akward positions where you can not aim.
4. For me, better hits at anything past 5 yards.

Both my J's have CT lasers and I am very pleased with them.

[alohadoug]

I have a minimalist holster I am testing

If it's the one in the picture, we'd love more details when you can....

[11B10]

I was likely on a hiatus when this bread started. Here is what is in my basketball shorts right now. These are held up with....a string. An 11 ounce gun is good for this. I have a minimalist holster I am testing and often a DSG AIWB due to its excellent design and clip staying put when drawing from gym shorts. I can get to a more substantial gun anywhere in my home. This is actually on me.

My daily wear pants weight a ton. They are full of lots of neat things. Once I get home and lock the door with a 100 pound GSD inside, I am pretty confident about my choice of wearing very comfortable clothing. I have a horrible back. My doctor gets mad about how much weight I carry around my waist when out and about in the urban jungle. At home, I want to rest. This allows me to be comfortable without being unarmed, and I am good with my Rule One gun even if others are not. It is an M&P 340 fitted with a Ti cylinder and built by JoJo's.




DB, I know I keep saying this, but I swear, someday, I WILL have an MP340.

[Duelist]

I was likely on a hiatus when this bread started. Here is what is in my basketball shorts right now. These are held up with....a string. An 11 ounce gun is good for this. I have a minimalist holster I am testing and often a DSG AIWB due to its excellent design and clip staying put when drawing from gym shorts. I can get to a more substantial gun anywhere in my home. This is actually on me.

My daily wear pants weight a ton. They are full of lots of neat things. Once I get home and lock the door with a 100 pound GSD inside, I am pretty confident about my choice of wearing very comfortable clothing. I have a horrible back. My doctor gets mad about how much weight I carry around my waist when out and about in the urban jungle. At home, I want to rest. This allows me to be comfortable without being unarmed, and I am good with my Rule One gun even if others are not. It is an M&P 340 fitted with a Ti cylinder and built by JoJo's.

Cool, but, who made the holster? And how much?

[peterb]

Cool, but, who made the holster? And how much?

I believe it's this: http://darkstargear.com/kydex-gear/aiwb/

[Dagga Boy]

I believe it's this: http://darkstargear.com/kydex-gear/aiwb/

I use a grey DSG AIWB holster with their black metal clip most of the time with that gun. The one in the picture came from a member here, and I think the screen name is spear.

[orionz06]

I believe it's this: http://darkstargear.com/kydex-gear/aiwb/

I am working on retooling that and switching the site around to have it as a store item but that is correct.

[Duelist]

I believe it's this: http://darkstargear.com/kydex-gear/aiwb/

Thanks. I don't see that exact one on there, but I'll look some more.

ETA: well, there we go.