US Carbine Association

[jlw]

http://www.uscarbineassociation.com/

[SecondsCount]

I am interested but the website is as vague as your post. ;)

[JHC]

:D Great news! This must be the new org that wants to advance and expand 2 gun competition (vs 3 gun). There seems to be a fair number of shooters (incl me) that express more interest in shooting and competing pistol-carbine than pistol-carbine-shotgun. That is all.

[jlw]

I am interested but the website is as vague as your post. ;)


There is a group called the US Carbine Association. They have a web page. Here's the link:


http://www.uscarbineassociation.com/


Better? :)

[EMC]

I am interested but the website is as vague as your post. ;)

Most of the content is on Facebook currently.

[Chris Rhines]

I guess my question is, "Why?"

Any club with a mind to, can run a two-gun match under existing USPSA, IDPA, or 3GN rules. Why do we need yet another rule set?

[MEH]

I kinda like their FTN rule:

"Shooter will receive a Failure to Neutralize (FTN) [5 second procedural penalty] if the shooter fails to [have 1 shot in the 0 second penalty zone and one in either the 1 or 3 second penalty zone ] OR [2 shots in the 1 second penalty zone]"

[ffhounddog]

These are great matches that are focused on skill sets that most soldiers, LE, and civilians could use. Been to four matches and since I do not carry a shotgun unless opening doors. Rules are not restrictive like in 3 gun and many pistol matches nor does it cater to the slicked out rifle or comp guns.

[Odin Bravo One]

But again, we run into people trying to keep things "competitive" by placing rules on equipment......and contradicting themselves in the process.

MilLe Division (Military & Law Enforcement)
Having often seen Military and Law Enforcement use competition only equipment, instead of their duty rig, to
stay competitive in 2 gun matches we wanted to create a division to that allows them show up and run their
work gear and compete against other shooters whose primary focus is to train in gear they wear on the job and
shoot guns they use in the field or on the streets.

MilLe Rifle
• Sling must be used
• Functioning light is allowed and encouraged on both the rifle and pistol. If the light is tested and will not
turn on competitor will be given the chance to insert batteries to make it work. Lights will not be made
heavier than factory weight
• One fixed magnification optic allowed on rifle with one set of Iron Sights. Piggy back optics NOT allowed
• 30+1 rounds maximum
• Lasers both Visible and IR allowed on rifle
• No low mass bolt carriers on rifles

But my none of my long guns fit into the box they have built, in the category claiming to cater to my professional gear. So why would I shoot that match vs. any other match where I will have to cater my gear to fit into the box they have created........?

[Jay Cunningham]

I want to shoot one of these matches with my 870.

[rob_s]

I don't know why people always snipe at this kind of thing. Especially those that don't shoot competitions anyway, and are unlikely to start even if they were allowed to write their own rules.

I don't see why having an organization that focuses on the two most popular guns is a bad thing. I hear from shooters all the time that don't participate in 3-gun because they lack the shotgun. Since its not a law or anything at the very least it allows local clubs a jumping off point and they can modify the rules as they see fit. There are several things that are similar to the two-gun match that I started and ran for years. If I was still running that match I don't think I would change to these rules but if I was just starting out I would probably use these rules as a starting point.

[Sparks2112]

But again, we run into people trying to keep things "competitive" by placing rules on equipment......and contradicting themselves in the process.

But my none of my long guns fit into the box they have built, in the category claiming to cater to my professional gear. So why would I shoot that match vs. any other match where I will have to cater my gear to fit into the box they have created........?

The first competitive organization I find that doesn't outright ban my every day carry gear for competition use or place me in the same division as guys using frame mounted optics will be getting my money.

[theblacknight]

This IS a competition. They have to draw the line somewhere. Thats what freestyle division is for.


This is why USCA is going to go big.


Introducing “Narratives”

USCA understands that shooters have regional and even local tastes when it comes to the types of matches they like to participate in. Just on our team we have a mix of tactical shooters and “run-n-gun” shooters. When making the rulebook we decided we absolutely wanted a base set of rules that were enforced strictly across the country but we also wanted the flexibility to let clubs decide what theme their matches would take (tactical, run-n-gun, defensive, etc) so we came up with the concept of a narratives.

Narratives Overview

Narratives allow clubs to dictate the course of fire on their stages. Different clubs throughout the country like to shoot different styles. Some areas are more defensive minded and some are more freestyle centered. With the addition of narratives to USCA clubs can now ensure the style of shooting their shooters like best is shot at their matches.

Narratives Limitations

Narratives cannot, in any way shape or form, override the base rules of USCA. Narratives allow clubs to dictate target engagement order, which hand or shoulder is to be used on a stage or array, what shooting position is to be used, how many shots on target, shot placement on target, etc. The key is narratives cannot force a shooter to violate any core USCA rules.

Narratives are limited as to the frequency of their use. At different level matches (State, Area and National level matches) the % of stages that can be driven by narratives. See the Match Classifications section of the rule book for more details (This is in the soon to be released rulebook!).

[Mike Honcho]

I liked them on Facebook. I'm one of those guys who doesn't shoot 3-gun because I don't have a shotgun. Hopefully I can find a match nearby north MS.

[ToddG]

But again, we run into people trying to keep things "competitive" by placing rules on equipment......and contradicting themselves in the process.

It's an inherent problem whenever you bring scores, prizes, and possible fame into shooting. If you said people can do whatever they want with whatever gear they want, someone (you) would show up with a Mk19, destroy every stage (literally), and... well actually, that would be pretty awesome. :cool:

As for the "narrative" thing, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. IDPA tried something similar -- though less formal -- early on and quickly realized that as the sport became more popular, having local rules and big match rules was problematic in the extreme. I've watched people who've traveled hundreds of miles to shoot a match only to be turned away because a gun, holster, ammo, whatever that's "always been ok back home" doesn't meet the rules and isn't eligible for the competition.

Even if they can miraculously keep everyone aware of what the big match rules are going to be, it will likely spiral into butt-hurtedness because people will constantly argue that their personal favorite kit should be legal at the big match. Just look at the recent debate we had here about IDPA's approach to LE duty holsters...

[Odin Bravo One]

It's an inherent problem whenever you bring scores, prizes, and possible fame into shooting.

I completely agree.

But I still question the intent of the the divisions.........why claim to have gear divisions so people can use the actual gear they carry, and not have to have "competition guns", yet have it not be remotely close to true? Certainly I can compete in any number of divisions with my duty gear.........

But I cannot compete in Mil/LE division, with my any of my "as issued" military carbines.

There are plenty of organizations that allow and provide the exact same thing for shooting sports. And the rules are at least consistent from club to club, match to match, and at various levels of competition.

[ToddG]

Sean -- No argument from me. I pay almost no attention to what guys are running in terms of carbines. If a game's LE/mil rules don't reflect LE/mil realities, it's yet another point of contention.

Candidly, it's why I'm against having a set aside LE/mil division...

[theblacknight]

How about you guys just show up and shoot. Local matches are known for letting people just play. How many IDPA clubs actually enforce the "membership after one match" rule? I've been to some idpas with dudes running their Limited/3gun STI's. Fit in somewhere. No one is saying you can't just shoot irons division.

The divisions thing is obviously for the people who want to really apply themselves to the sport and shoot higher level matches.

Dose it really matter the car you drive when all you plan on doing is local auto crosses?

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[Odin Bravo One]

I can certainly set up a gun to compete in any of the divisions...........that is easy enough to do.

But it would be a "competition" gun, specifically defeating the stated purpose of the Mil/LE division........and leaving my duty gear banned from said division. Or I can compete in whatever category my duty gear happens to fall into. But then what is the point of having the Mil/LE division?

I could show up and shoot Irons Only.......but I don't go to work with irons only on my duty gun.

I guess I just don't "get it"........Since no one is chiming in to actually explain it, and all I have to work from is the literature provided by the organization, I'll have to continue to be confused as to the point of the Mil/LE Division.

[theblacknight]

How exactly could they ensure a standard in this le/mil division? Some people's duty rides I'm sure would only fit in a open type division. So if USCA merely required people to show credentials to shoot in this division, you'd have dudes with full raced, lo mass carrier formula one guns burning everyone.

[Lomshek]

How exactly could they ensure a standard in this le/mil division? Some people's duty rides I'm sure would only fit in a open type division. So if USCA merely required people to show credentials to shoot in this division, you'd have dudes with full raced, lo mass carrier formula one guns burning everyone.


Which, I think, goes to Todd's point that a separate LE/Mil division (especially based on equipment limits) is kind of pointless when every department out there has different equipment rules.

Some small departments are "run what ya brung" personal issue, some use variable power optics and some use irons. Holsters run the gamut too based on a host of issues (politics, job, gear, etc.).

It would make more sense to recognize Top LEO in each division and let them shoot the division their equipment fits rather than have a division that only fits some department's issue gear.

[theblacknight]

No doubt, I would just run in where I fit, but local matches you could prob get away with shooting whatever your duty gun is. Match directors are usually just happy to have your match fee and see you out there.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm all for shooting whatever the hell division and gear someone feels like shooting. And certainly one can show up and shoot in any division, or like I would have to do at KSTG.......for no record score........but that isn't what I understood the "intent" of the Mil/LE Division at US Carbine to be. At least not the description posted on their page anyway.

I also find it curious that if the equipment in use by the organization or affiliated local level club is at fault for failure to record a score, then the shooter is penalized by "being allowed" to remove a piece of his equipment, which is legal, and shoot the stage again.

[theblacknight]

I think you should try emailing Mac or pm USCA's FB with your concerns and see if they can tweak the rules for the better. I think with your insight, chances would be good.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[littlejerry]

I'm firmly in the camp of not shooting 3gun because I'm not into shotguns. And frankly learning another platform, adopting another caliber, and buying more gear for a shotgun just isn't worth it to shoot my rifle in a match setting.

Unfortunately there are very few carbine or 2 gun matches in the Atlanta GA area. There is at least one pistol match every weekend but at best 1 carbine match a month.... And the one club hosting it is starting to add shotgun stages.

If USCA comes to metro Atlanta I'll be thrilled.

[jlw]

I'm firmly in the camp of not shooting 3gun because I'm not into shotguns. And frankly learning another platform, adopting another caliber, and buying more gear for a shotgun just isn't worth it to shoot my rifle in a match setting.

Unfortunately there are very few carbine or 2 gun matches in the Atlanta GA area. There is at least one pistol match every weekend but at best 1 carbine match a month.... And the one club hosting it is starting to add shotgun stages.

If USCA comes to metro Atlanta I'll be thrilled.

Cherokee has a rifle/pistol match the fourth Sunday of each month. The range is in Hall County not too terribly far off of I-985.

I think Creekside was having some carbine matches, but that is well off of my beaten path.

[Little Creek]

I'm firmly in the camp of not shooting 3gun because I'm not into shotguns. And frankly learning another platform, adopting another caliber, and buying more gear for a shotgun just isn't worth it to shoot my rifle in a match setting.

Unfortunately there are very few carbine or 2 gun matches in the Atlanta GA area. There is at least one pistol match every weekend but at best 1 carbine match a month.... And the one club hosting it is starting to add shotgun stages.

If USCA comes to metro Atlanta I'll be thrilled.

I live about 95 miles from downtown Atlanta. I too do not have nor want a dedicated shotgun for 3-gun matches. I like the idea of carbine matches, starting with a cocked and locked carbine and a fully loaded pistol in the holster, transitioning to the pistol when the carbine runs dry, etc.

Please post the particulars on the carbine matches in the Atlanta area.

[rob_s]

The entire time, about 6 years I think, I was running my matches I had one or two vocal guys lobbying for me to add shotgun. I not only didn't entertain the idea, I flat out told them it would never happen with me at the helm but that they were welcome to go start their own thing.

Having been out of the management side of the matches for the past couple of years, they have expanded the use of handgun in them. There was a time when I really thought that the inclusion of the handgun, in order to practice carbine-to-pistol transitions, was not only an important skill but also important for our marketing. Having been back to a match or two in the last few months I can tell you that, at least for me, even the inclusion of handgun is something I'm not interested in. I was hoping I could just go and shoot the carbine portions of the stages but I see videos of stages that are at least 50% pistol and my motivation to drive out there and burn up ammo dwindles.

But, strictly from a marketing aspect, the transition definitely seems to be the holy grail for the masses. Add it to a match and you will gain 20%+ in attendance, take it away and you will lose that same 20%. I would like to see a clear delineation in the new rules from the organization in question that this is a CARBINE match and not a two-gun match and I would like to see very clear guidelines in terms of round-count ratios. Something like no more than 20% of the rounds in a stage, and 10% of the rounds in a match may require the handgun. But not including that isn't likely to keep me from attending.

One other thing that I think DOES need to be clearly delineated in any carbine/pistol matches is that transitions FROM a hot pistol TO a hot carbine wherein the holster is the only legal means should be expressly prohibited. Requiring people to reholster a hot pistol on the clock is a good way to wind up with someone shot in the leg or foot, and that someone could be the RO/SO. When we did transitions from carbine to pistol the rule was that if you transitioned from a loaded carbine and a hot round came out of the gun at "unload and show clear" that the RO/SO did not know to be a dud, you were DQ'd from the match. But I see no viable reason at all to even require a transition that requires someone to holster a hot pistol on the clock. We did several "fight your way to the carbine" stages but the pistol portion always ended with an empty pistol, and grounding the pistol to pick up the "found carbine" was always part of the stage.

[littlejerry]

Cherokee has a rifle/pistol match the fourth Sunday of each month. The range is in Hall County not too terribly far off of I-985.

I think Creekside was having some carbine matches, but that is well off of my beaten path.

That's the "1 a month" I was referring to. I've been and I was not impressed. Stages were very simple, reloads were too conveniently planned, and they have started adding shotguns to the mix.

Creekside is my go-to range but the matches are scheduled randomly and infrequently.

On the flipside there are 3 very good USPSA matches every month plus smaller indoor IPSC leagues and steel matches. I can compete with my pistol on a weekly basis(and not in IDPA) if I'm willing to drive.

I'm with Rob on the carbine focus. I don't mind having to do a transition, but I want the match to he 90% carbine. And I want complex USPSA style stages.

[jlw]

That's the "1 a month" I was referring to. I've been and I was not impressed. Stages were very simple, reloads were too conveniently planned, and they have started adding shotguns to the mix.

Creekside is my go-to range but the matches are scheduled randomly and infrequently.

On the flipside there are 3 very good USPSA matches every month plus smaller indoor IPSC leagues and steel matches. I can compete with my pistol on a weekly basis(and not in IDPA) if I'm willing to drive.

I'm with Rob on the carbine focus. I don't mind having to do a transition, but I want the match to he 90% carbine. And I want complex USPSA style stages.

Skip J in Anderson, SC, has carbine matches monthly as well. That may be more of haul than you want to make. For me, I can get to Skip J easier than I can many of the metro-Atlanta ranges.

[Little Creek]

One other thing that I think DOES need to be clearly delineated in any carbine/pistol matches is that transitions FROM a hot pistol TO a hot carbine wherein the holster is the only legal means should be expressly prohibited. Requiring people to reholster a hot pistol on the clock is a good way to wind up with someone shot in the leg or foot, and that someone could be the RO/SO. When we did transitions from carbine to pistol the rule was that if you transitioned from a loaded carbine and a hot round came out of the gun at "unload and show clear" that the RO/SO did not know to be a dud, you were DQ'd from the match. But I see no viable reason at all to even require a transition that requires someone to holster a hot pistol on the clock. We did several "fight your way to the carbine" stages but the pistol portion always ended with an empty pistol, and grounding the pistol to pick up the "found carbine" was always part of the stage.

I am with you, one should never be required to holster a hot pistol on the clock during a match. It is just not safe. Most of the transitions, IMHO, should be from the carbine to the pistol when the carbine runs dry or is cleared first.

[jlw]

I am with you, one should never be required to holster a hot pistol on the clock during a match. It is just not safe. Most of the transitions, IMHO, should be from the carbine to the pistol when the carbine runs dry or is cleared first.

I've heard folks say that there is no such thing as speed reholstering, but having been in a situation where I was justified in having drawn my weapon but then having to transition to a hands on encounter within seconds, getting that pistol back in the holster got pretty dang important.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've heard folks say that there is no such thing as speed reholstering, but having been in a situation where I was justified in having drawn my weapon but then having to transition to a hands on encounter within seconds, getting that pistol back in the holster got pretty dang important.

Legit comment but separate thread probably makes sense.

[rob_s]

I am with you, one should never be required to holster a hot pistol on the clock during a match. It is just not safe. Most of the transitions, IMHO, should be from the carbine to the pistol when the carbine runs dry or is cleared first.

Remember, this is a competition.

also, requiring one to first clear a carbine before slinging it but encouraging one to holster a hot pistol on the clock seems at odds with one another to me.

[Odin Bravo One]

Again and again, I see a lot of flaws with the rules in place at this time. Many of which are safety, a lot that is just flat out tactical stupidity, (the likes of which I usually only see in O-1's still shitting Academy chow), and gear rules that I can't wrap my head around.

[Martin-USCA]

I saw some people complaining that the duty gear they use doesn't fit into Mille. That division was set up to closely mirror what you most commonly see. Not to fit in every set up you see in either Military or LE hands. And you don't have to be military or law enforcement to compete in this division either. Most often you will see a retention holster. You will also generally see an ACOG, Aimpoint, or Eotech. Of course there are other set ups that you will see with variable optics and offset optics and all kinds of stuff that vary from unit to unit and department to department.

What gear do you currently use? How is it banned from this competition? Please explain what it is you have so I have a frame of reference. We aren't perfect, we are a young organization and we care about making this a quality organization in which you can test your skills against others and learn to grow as a shooter.

We don't really have an "it's ok at local matches but not big matches" exception the same as IDPA. IDPA has several stipulations and then they just compete in an already set up division. "Freestyle" is labeled as a non-competitive division from the start. and you will not be able to select that when signing up for major matches either. I know a large percentage of people that like to shoot our matches will probably not worry about being the next top shooter of the world. I hated going to an IDPA match and being told my Glock 19 that was in my IWB holster wasn't allowed when there was a dude there with an OWB holstered Glock 34. So we have a catch all. We'd rather you shoot than not shoot and come out and have fun at a local match. We know many people want to come out and practice with what they have without building a specific gun but don't plan to be big competitors.

We do not allow slinging a hot gun because there is a potential for a swinging gun to have the safety flicked off and the trigger caught in gear. It's something I saw happen during live operations while in the Marine Corps. People busy going hands on or getting on or off vehicles having their rifles go off. Really I'd prefer not to use the drop and rack method and allow stage design to preempt that method but it's there so that if someone loads the wrong amount of rounds or just would prefer that method at their local club it can be used.

However, I've never seen a properly holstered gun go off. Every class I've ever been to that was a carbine/pistol class required holstering a hot pistol. USPSA allows holstering a hot pistol. Every pistol competition I go to I have to holster a hot gun. Whether it's before the clock starts or not you should be able to accomplish this simple task safely. If you're local club doesn't like it then they can design their stages around not doing it.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'll take a few in random order:

MIL/LE Division
- Sling. At first read, this makes all the sense in the world. Until we get to rule about pistol transitions where we clear and safe the carbine, and not being able to move with a rifle in a state of malfunction......

- A very common MIL/LE carbine optic is a 1x RDS combined with a magnifier. But not allowed......I get it that there are infinite combinations of gear out there and a line has to be drawn somewhere.......but this combination is a very common issued gear set up among a very large number of military members. As is the ELCAN Spectre/DR with Docter MRDS piggybacked on top of it. Not something I would buy, or even want to use, but it is a commonly issued piece of gear. When the numbers are in the hundred thousand NSN'd units in service or more, I don't consider that to be "all kinds of stuff that vary unit to unit". But that's just my take on it.......

- WML......I don't get it. Not a sarcastic "I don't get it"........I mean, it doesn't make sense to me the way the rule is written......I miss the purpose of it.

- Lasers.......not able to quite wrap my head around that either. I'm missing something.

- Holster at the hip. Fine for the armed citizen. Fine if a uniformed LEO is grabbing a minimalist active shooter first responder chest rig. Not so much for the SWAT Cop, or Joe who has pouches over plates, and other kit that impede the draw. The offset, and drop holsters so popular among those who work in body armor were developed for that very reason. So much for competing in a division with your duty gear.

- Factory type loads...........not sure what exactly that is. Who decides?



Seriously........I think anything to promote more shooting opportunities is a good thing........but here is a short list of other things that I either do not understand, or do not make sense to my pea brain:

A lot of the handgun rules from division to division. I can see folks who have a rifle (such as Irons) that easily fit into a division, but their daily carry gun is out because it has grip tape on it. So he shoots non-competitive Freestyle or in a division where he cannot be competitive because of 2" of 3M on the frontstrap.

The Open Rifle "Any legal length barrel" opens all kinds of possibilities. And is an area where legal at a local level match does not translate to legal at a regional or national match.

DA/SA pistols de-cocked, and carried on safe. Example- Beretta 92/M9. A very safe, popular, and acceptable way to carry that particular arm is de-cocked, safety off. But the shooter who carries said pistol in such a manner arrives to the match, and has to apply "Match" behavior simply due to his choice, or assigned pistol. So the Sig 226 or HK P30Vwhatever guy has a built in competitive advantage as he has nothing to change, and no controls to manipulate when he draws his pistol.

Tactical reload- I don't have the words.

Off the belt reload- Creates match specific gear. Specifically for Mil/LE folks who likely have a working rig that may or may not include mag pouches on the belt.

Transitions- Not a fan. Why force people into bad habit forming techniques? And do I have to pick up the possibly partially loaded magazine from the rifle? Does it have to be prior to me having a pistol in my hand?

Malfunctions- I think I am missing something here.

Steel targets- For as much caution and rules that cater to safety over practicality as we have read to this point in the rule book, it is surprising to see the 12 yard minimum distance to engage steel targets. M855 on a steel target at 15 yards? Bold.

If it is
determined the timer was unable to capture all the shots on a course of fire the shooter will be allowed to
reshoot the course of fire ONE additional time with their suppressor REMOVED from their firearm. Shooters
refusing to remove their suppressor will be moved to freestyle division

I know I am missing something here. If the match equipment isn't up to the task, why does the match not get equipment that is?


I like the concept. I do.

2 gun, like Rob mentioned, has been going on all over the place at local clubs for several years, geared up by folks who wanted more than what was available. A well organized governing body, some structure, and vision certainly has the potential to bring in all sorts of shooters who want the run/gun 3-Gun type experience, but don't want to include the shotgun for whatever reason. I get that there are growing pains in any new venture. Particularly ones of this nature.

I do sincerely apologize if earlier posts came off as snooty.......after re-reading some of them........they could have been worded better. Even this reply could have probably been worded better.....If a US Carbine match showed up at the local range, I'd probably go and shoot whatever division my carry gear fit into (Freestyle?), not caring (too much) about match results. But to gain the support and popularity of USPSA, IDPA, and 3-Gun, some refinement will be necessary.

[Martin-USCA]

Sean,
There are quite a few things that may need to be clarified. Maybe we need to choose our wording better.

- Piggy back devices- The piggy back can be taken off for the duration of the match. Also Tac ops isn't really that far off and you can use it in that division. Again, there has to be something separating the divisions. Otherwise they aren't divisions. I guess we could rename "Mille" however again it's the closest thing I see to "regular infantry guy" "regular patrol guy" division. When you start allowing multiple optics and or variables, people start to wonder why even have divisions?

- WML- We include the WML because many other shooting organizations don't allow lights. At least on the handguns. I guess we could just not say it isn't allowed. But we encourage the use because we plan to at least at most major matches have a lowlight stage if possible.

- Lasers- I know a lot of Mil and LE guys that use lasers both vis. and IR. do you think we shouldn't allow them?

- Holster- Holster at the hip needs to be clarified. Dropped and Offset is allowed as are leg rigs. We just don't want the all the way up front ghost holster. We will soon be working on visual confirmations of what is legal.

- Factory type loads- We need to get our power factors listed for each division but we've had too many irons in the fire. Basically we want to avoid powder puff loads you often see from people trying to get every little edge they can.

- Irons No grip tape- We are changing the no grip tape rule. You're right, it's dumb. When creating this division I wanted it to be an "Entry Point" division or "Budget" division. Until it was brought to my attention that grip tape costs about 5 bucks. That will be removed soon.

- Barrel Length- True however anyone with NFA firearms is burdened with the task already of knowing where these firearms are legal and where they aren't. You also must submit a form to the ATF anytime you leave the state with a SBR. We could note this in the rule book but generally NFA owners should already know the rules. Generally most "Free States" will allow SBR's Somewhat out of date but as you see it shouldn't be an issue. http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/default?set=06

- DA/SA pistols- The current USPSA Production champion shoots a Beretta DA/SA gun in a field of Glocks etc. I would say if you carry a gun know the gun and if someone can be champion with that gun then it's more the Indian than the arrow. Would you recommend someone carry their Sig with the Hammer back? If it's such a disadvantage they should consider another gun. If they can't then they should train with their gun until it isn't an issue.

- Off the belt- We should reword from off the belt to off the gear. This is basically for a stage where a stage designer may want to prohibit the use of mag couplers or other devices so that shooters have to practice that type of reload.

-Tac Reloads- ? Not sure of the issue. Almost anywhere I've ever been teaches retaining partial mags. However you don't have to do those all the time. We have a set of Approved forms of reloads that can be more or less restrictive. To include reloading however and whenever you want. It's up to the course designer.

-Transitions- Need to be better clarified. If you run dry you can just dump the rifle and go for the pistol as opposed to the drop rack procedure. Though it's on the shooter to know the difference otherwise it'll result in a DQ. The drop and rack procedure is for situations where the course designer doesn't want to restrict how or when you draw your pistol however doesn't want to use barrels. So you drop the mag rack it and transition. OR maybe you were on a limited start stage and you loaded a full mag and didn't run dry... what do you do? Drop rack and then transition and engage.

- Malfunctions- With malfunctions if you are shooting an array of targets and you have a malfunction you can switch to your pistol. However in the interest of not having someone swinging around a hot gun you should holster and try to clear the malfunction.

- Steel Minimum- is mainly for pistols Rifles will need a bit more but need clarification. Also we generally don't allow M855 to be shot at steel as it prematurely destroys it.

Check out some of my videos on youtube. I'm by no means a professional shooter but you'll get the idea. http://www.youtube.com/user/Omega350ss?feature=watch

[Martin-USCA]

BTW Sean,
I'm a Marine. I'm not that sensitive. I appreciate your candor and to grow we need honest feedback. We can not and will not please everyone. But we hope to have a match that appeals to a wide variety of people.

[Odin Bravo One]

BTW Sean,
I'm a Marine. I'm not that sensitive. I appreciate your candor and to grow we need honest feedback. We can not and will not please everyone. But we hope to have a match that appeals to a wide variety of people.

No, you won't please everyone. And likely go through many wording and rule changes.......ala IDPA, and all the discussion on the internet surrounding it.

Those little points of clarification you provided paint a much clearer picture. It just didn't read that way. I'm not, nor will I be a Master Class shooter in any competition, but I do get tired of coming up with courses of fire, and blind shooting a match can be entertaining. And my girl bugs me to shoot matches with her. But it has been a constant frustration that a safe & functional operational set up doesn't fit into any of the boxes.

I certainly hope it grows into something where everyone can find a box to fit into, and gets more people on the range.

ETA:

I think I miss the connection with the Production Division dude shooting a DA/SA Beretta in a field of Glocks, and requiring the safety be engaged as a post loading procedure. How is that more safe than the DA/SA 226 that does not have a safety? Sig still gets a competitive edge over the guy who is now forced to employ the safety.

The TAC Reload issue- I guess I struggle to see any real world application for it. I know it gets taught. A lot. I'm sure your PMI taught you how to employ a loop sling too...........just because it gets taught somewhere doesn't give it relevance in the real world.

At the end of the day, it's your show. And the rules are the rules. I still think USPSA has some of the most retarded rules in existence. Eclipsed only by IDPA. I can work around them in most cases, but if performing safe and tactically sound techniques gets me DQ'd versus doing it the way the book says which has an illusion of safety, and is fucking retarded........I'll take the DQ, and haul my fat ass to the DQ up the road for a blizzard.

There will always be differences of opinion on varying rules and topics, but there certainly are some tweaks to be done to wording and verbiage to help attract the audience of shooters you want participating in the game.

[rob_s]

Sean,

-Transitions- Need to be better clarified. If you run dry you can just dump the rifle and go for the pistol as opposed to the drop rack procedure. Though it's on the shooter to know the difference otherwise it'll result in a DQ. The drop and rack procedure is for situations where the course designer doesn't want to restrict how or when you draw your pistol however doesn't want to use barrels. So you drop the mag rack it and transition. OR maybe you were on a limited start stage and you loaded a full mag and didn't run dry... what do you do? Drop rack and then transition and engage.

That is definitely not how it is worded in the rules right now. I wasn't advocating slinging a hot carbine, but your current rules only offer the option of clearing the gun. Requiring clearing as part of a stage? Bad stage design.

And you and I have gone 'round enough about the holstering a hot pistol on the clock. I think it is majorly stupid, adds nothing to the game or the stage, is dangerous, has little to no "real world" application, and that a good stage designer can accomplish the same thing without requiring it.

[ToddG]

I have no comment on the carbine related rules.

Requiring a shooter of unknown skill level to holster a loaded pistol on the clock in a competitive environment is extremely dangerous.

[Martin-USCA]

I have no comment on the carbine related rules.

Requiring a shooter of unknown skill level to holster a loaded pistol on the clock in a competitive environment is extremely dangerous.

It's about as dangerous as telling them to load and make ready, or draw on the clock. I'm more wary of someone drawing from a Serpa than putting a gun in a holster like they just did 10 seconds ago. I don't see the practicality of throwing away your pistol. I do see the practicality in real world in that people could be in vehicles and engaged with their handgun and go for their rifle and they have to do something with their pistol while getting that carbine out. I do see the practicality in drawing your pistol to shoot an immediate threat if your primary goes down and then holstering it before fixing the rifle. Again most of the incidents with handguns that I've seen have been people drawing the gun and putting their finger on the trigger prematurely however we generally don't start pistol matches (IDPA, USPSA) with the pistol in the hand. There is a degree of risk with any sport especially when they are firearms related. And again USPSA one of the biggest and safest organizations out there has provisions for holstering a hot gun on the clock. 8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions (see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11).

FDCC has been around for 13 years in that time we've had a wide variety of shooters at our matches. Some having never shot a gun before. The most dangerous things I've seen mainly went on behind the line. Which is something I nipped in the bud very soon after taking over.

Tac Reloads are just an approved reload. They aren't often required or used but I do see validity in practicing the skill of retaining partial magazines as opposed to dropping them all around. But that's a whole other discussion.

The safety on a Beretta should be disengaged long before your sights are on target and putting the safety on is the same as hitting a de-cock lever so again I don't see the advantage. If you draw properly as soon as your gun clears the area of your body parts and is coming up on target the safety should be getting taken off.

[ToddG]

It's about as dangerous as telling them to load and make ready, or draw on the clock.

No, it's not. And candidly, if you believe that, I suggest you spend more time participating in and learning about existing action pistol sports such as IDPA and USPSA before going too far down the path with your own rules. I've never been to a match that expected people to holster their pistol under stress on the clock. I've been to plenty that involved shooting the gun until it was empty so the shooter could either dump it or reholster it empty.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with whether someone may in real life have to holster hurriedly. People in real life may need to move their muzzle past the 180, too. Safety rules aren't in place to mimic reality, they're in place to prevent unnecessary injury. Accidental discharges during "load & make ready" are almost 100% guaranteed to hit something other than the shooter, but an AD while holstering has a very high likelihood of causing an injury. There have been some spectacular examples of that happening even off the clock at major matches... which is why no one runs stages where shooters have to do it on the clock.


And again USPSA one of the biggest and safest organizations out there has provisions for holstering a hot gun on the clock. 8.5.2

That's incredibly disingenuous. The actual text of 8.5.2 reads:

8.5.2 Re-holstering the firearm during the course of fire is not recommended. If a competitor holsters a firearm during the course of fire, the following will apply:
8.5.2.1 For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied
8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be down.
(emphasis mine)

The organization you used to justify your rule specifically recommends against doing what you're trying to allow.

Watch 100 relatively new shooters speed-reholster their "tuned" Glocks and, if you're lucky, you'll just have your opinion changed out of terror. If you're unlucky, you'll have to clean the blood off your clothes before you get to the computer and change your rule.


FDCC has been around for 13 years in that time we've had a wide variety of shooters at our matches. Some having never shot a gun before. The most dangerous things I've seen mainly went on behind the line. Which is something I nipped in the bud very soon after taking over.

No disagreement whatsoever. People can do unsafe things anywhere. That doesn't seem like a good justification to introduce a dangerous practice into the courses of fire, though. :confused:


The safety on a Beretta should be disengaged long before your sights are on target and putting the safety on is the same as hitting a de-cock lever so again I don't see the advantage. If you draw properly as soon as your gun clears the area of your body parts and is coming up on target the safety should be getting taken off.

I assume this was directed at someone else but since I have a bit of experience with Berettas and the folks who carry them on duty both LE & mil, I have to disagree with your assessment. Asking someone to decock a SIG before holstering, sure... that puts the gun in the only carry mode for which it is designed and intended by the manufacturer. When the gun is drawn, all the shooter has to do is pull the trigger. Requiring someone to put his Beretta on safe -- especially given how few professional and private gun carriers actually carry a safety-equipped DA pistol that way -- means not only does he have to contend with the longer and heavier trigger pull (like the SIG's) but also has to disengage the safety.

You create a huge advantage for people who can get their hands on a G-model (decock only) Beretta as opposed to the more common but otherwise identical F-model (safety/decock). The same will be true for HK pistols, some of which can be put on safe and some of which cannot.

[Odin Bravo One]

Tac Reloads are just an approved reload. They aren't often required or used but I do see validity in practicing the skill of retaining partial magazines as opposed to dropping them all around. But that's a whole other discussion.

The safety on a Beretta should be disengaged long before your sights are on target and putting the safety on is the same as hitting a de-cock lever so again I don't see the advantage. If you draw properly as soon as your gun clears the area of your body parts and is coming up on target the safety should be getting taken off.

I can see the use of a true tactical reload, under certain, very specific circumstances. Of which, I have never heard those very specific circumstances discussed when the TRL is being taught/practiced outside of certain organizations. I have never attended an open enrollment course, LE course, or competition where the concept was discussed and explained giving the students all of the facts, and providing proper perspective. I find it very difficult to envision a scenario or situation where a TRL would be the primary decision any time where rapid engagement of targets is the order of the day. What is the criteria that tells the shooter that a TRL is the appropriate technique to be used in a given situation?

To continue down the rabbit hole.........how many people remember where/when we saw the modern day version/implementation of the TRL or "Reload with retention" concept come to pass? Or ever even knew? The Why? I find it comical at IDPA matches especially (but also featured prominently at other matches) to hear the various explanations as the "experts" discuss "the real world", and why that rule is in place. I've yet to meet one of those "experts", RO's, Match Directors who actually understood themselves. They never watched the process as it unfolded and was then implemented in the military. As goes the military so goes domestic LE in many cases, and this was one of those times. Military guys then get out, became cops, became trainers, and the techniques continued to get watered down generation of shooter/trainer after generation of shooter/trainer to the point that no one knows the why, or bothers to apply critical thinking to use of the technique and if it is still valid as a technique in practical applications in gunfights to be taught, discussed, or addressed as part of a curriculum, or competition.

As for the Beretta.............my Sig doesn't have a safety. My Hk is a decocker only version. I don't have an extra step, use of a fine motor skill, or manipulation before I can break my first shot. I can go straight to my grip, and onto my trigger without the possibility of a hiccup along the way due to having to manipulate another lever. So there is an advantage, especially given the way the lever is disengaged on the Beretta. And more to my point........say dude is actually a LEO, and his department policy is to carry hammer down, safety disengaged, retention devices in place (as is the most common method of carry I have seen the M9/92F in domestic LE) ........he trains that way every time he touches his gun. Except when he comes to the match that requires the safety to be engaged. Ultimately, requiring the safety to be engaged while the pistol is holstered is simply an illusion of safety. It is no more safe than that 226 or Hk, and it is no more dangerous than the Sig or Hk examples that I used, if a shooter de-cocks an M9/92F, disengages the safety, and holsters. I don't have a dog in the fight as I don't own, get issued, or shoot the M9/92F platform.......but I know for a fact that I am faster to my first shot without having to manipulate a safety than I am when I do have to manipulate a safety.

I'll go ahead and bow out of the discussion at this point. I am not on the forum to be the gun, gear, competition rules, or tactics police. Nor am I a member of PF.com to try to get rules changed for an organization of which I am not even a member or casual participant. These final thoughts were mostly brought out so other members can self-assess and consider both sides of the issues we have been discussing, so as to form their own opinions to utilize in their own training and employment of their gun systems.

I know you guys have your reasons for creating the rules that are in place, and it is your show, you get to direct it however you want. Based on your collective training, competitions, and experiences you have put forth a program to try to kick start a new sport shooting discipline. A worthy and ambitious endeavor. Who am I to criticize? As I nit pick through some of the items we have discussed here, I am reminded of part of a Roosevelt speech I recall and use often when a situation arises where it is appropriate:

It's not the critic who counts. Not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled, or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena...............

Best of luck to you, and your organization.


ETA: Looks like TG and I were hitting the Sig/Beretta topic at the same time. Those are his thoughts, mine are mine. We didn't coordinate.

[Little Creek]

If I show up at a USCA match and find out that a COF requires the competitor to holster a loaded pistol under stress on the clock, I will turn around and leave. I do not want to be part of a match when someone gets shot because of such a rule.

That being said, I hope the rule writers of USCA do the right thing and prohibit the holstering of a loaded pistol under stress on the clock during a course of fire. It is an accident waiting to happen.

[Failure2Stop]

If I show up at a USCA match and find out that a COF requires the competitor to holster a loaded pistol under stress on the clock, I will turn around and leave. I do not want to be part of a match when someone gets shot because of such a rule.

That being said, I hope the rule writers of USCA do the right thing and prohibit the holstering of a loaded pistol under stress on the clock during a course of fire. It is an accident waiting to happen.

I very sincerely agree.
I could see a lot of sponsors getting squeamish about that.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[Kyle Reese]

If I show up at a USCA match and find out that a COF requires the competitor to holster a loaded pistol under stress on the clock, I will turn around and leave. I do not want to be part of a match when someone gets shot because of such a rule.

That being said, I hope the rule writers of USCA do the right thing and prohibit the holstering of a loaded pistol under stress on the clock during a course of fire. It is an accident waiting to happen.

Concur. I see no rational basis for such a rule.