Rogers Shooting School

[Prdator]

Guy's Im really plaining on trying to go to the Rogers Shooting School this Oct.

I know several of you have been there, can you give me your thoughts on it and any Tips to get ready for it??

Thanks

[GJM]

Since you will shoot +/- 2,500 rounds, a 9mm will be easier on your hands. Definitely master your support hand shooting, as it accounts for about 25 per cent of the rounds on the school test, with strong hand accounting for another 25 per cent. I will look for an AAR I did after attending school there last week.

[GJM]

here is the AAR:

My wife,Charlie, and I finished the Rogers class today, and it was an extraordinary experience -- extraordinarily rewarding and extraordinarily humbling. At the end of the class, Bill Rogers explained to us what we could do to maintain our skills, in the absence of his turning targets, using basic stuff we all have. These suggestions would be equally valuable for someone preparing to come to the Rogers School, or just wanting to shoot at their physiological limit. Bill bases all his teaching and targets on physiological limits, which generally vary little, if at all, between each of us. What makes a top shooter is not the ability to do something faster than everyone else, but rather the ability to make each reaction/shot with perfect technique at the physiological par time of the average human.

Before discussing these methods, I want to offer a few suggestions for those coming. First, do not come until you have brought your strong hand and support hand only shooting to the level I describe below. When you think of how many two hand shots you have fired, and compare that to the number of one hand shots you have fired, it is easy to understand why you want to arrive with the one handed shooting squared away -- or it is like a gorilla hanging over your head the whole week, since half the shots fired are with one hand. Second, as tempting as it is, do not do the optional shotgun or carbine class that is offered. Yesterday, after the pistol shooting, plus extra remedial work on my support hand shooting, and the shotgun module, I literally crashed and actually would have preferred to be home working on my tax return, going to the dentist, or picking brass in a pricker patch! You need time to let your mind and body recover each day. Most folks shot 9mm pistols, as they are obviously less expensive to feed, easier on your body over a 2,500 round week, and have less recoil. That said, today I shot an HK 45, and my performance was as good as my best performance with a 9mm P30. The reason for this is the modern stance taught by Rogers is very physical and controls recoil exceptionally well -- so the reason for 9mm is not some magic time advantage. Overall the class was mostly Glock 17's, one M&P 9mm, my HK and three Sig 220's from Chattanooga PD. Those 220 shooters got really good at their reloads over the week.

A few gear notes, before I continue. My P30 and HK 45 had zero malfunctions over the week. I saw a number of Glock malfunctions, many shooter induced, but a number obviously not shooter induced. Bill Rogers can demo most every drill, with every service pistol with similar times, so at the end of the day, your gear isn't that important, because you are here to learn to shoot using the Rogers method, based on human reactions, and that applies to all handguns.

Before discussing drills, here are the human reaction times, which become shot par times. Reacting to a buzzer or a rising target takes a human, on average .24, with very little variation. Rogers rounds that to .25. Starting from an extended, confirmed ready (muzzle depressed to the base of the target, arms extended and sights aligned) to make a hit on a spot, or very close to it, takes .50, which breaks down to .25 for the reaction to the stimulus, and .25 to break the shot. If that initial shot was on the head, you would get .75, which is .25 to react and .50 for the more precise shot.

You start with a regular IPSC target, with an 8.5x11, heavier stock piece of regular paper, with a two inch red painted circle in the middle at 7 yards. First drill from the extended, confirmed ready, is react to the timer, and place a good shot at .5 second. You must work the trigger as the muzzle is coming up and break the shot as your arms are just extending to make the time. Get that down pat before moving on. Do the same thing strong hand or support hand only, but the par time goes up to .75, because you lose the support of the second hand helping you to align your sights. Eventually, you do the same drill from an open top, unconcealed holster, with a par time of 1.25 free style, and 1.5 strong hand only. While you may be able to draw faster than 1.25, it is critical that you pause long enough to get a good firing grip before drawing the pistol from the holster, or you will lose time and accuracy in an extended firing string.

After you get this down, you add a second shot to the head. The time for this free style, from the extended ready is 1 second, which breaks down to .25 to react, .25 for the body shot, and .50 for the head shot). Same drill strong or support hand is 1.5 seconds (.25 to react, .50 for the shot, and .50 to the head). From the holster it is 1.75, 1.25 for the reaction, draw and body shot, an .50 for the head.

Now, time to add a second target three or four yards back and offset. Time for target 1 (body and head) from the extended ready is 1 second, plus .5 for the body on the second target free style or 1.5, or one hand is 2.25. Add the increments as you get to body and head on target two. Then, add a third target or steel at 12-13 yards, and add .5 free style or .75 one hand. After you get beyond 15 yards, the free style goes up from .5 to .75, and the one hand from .75 to 1 second. A Rogers drill may number as high as 23 targets, with multiple reloads (3 seconds for a reload behind cover including the follow-up shot), and you can figure the par times by adding all the increments above. Obviously you won't have the targets turning, which can be confusing and add stress/complexity, and the targets falling, which adds feedback as the target falls.Another Rogers factor, is the school test numbers 125 targets, which is fatiguing because of all those shots, none of which are easy shots.

Bill Rogers was an excellent instructor, but an even bigger surprise was how good all his assistant instructors were. Bill demonstrated the school test on day one, shooting a 121 out of 125, from a duty rig. (I believe that the only people to have shot a perfect 125 are Bill Rogers, and just recently Robbie Leatham.) On days two through four, a different instructor demonstrated each of our drills, also shooting at a high level. This alone is unique, because while I have had instructors demonstrate something simple, I have never had them shoot a difficult test in front of class. I didn't think this was showy, but rather a great example of what the student needs to do, and the instructor's proficiency.

A final comment is something we all know -- practice what you suck at. I have a fast draw stroke, and shoot well at 50-100 yards, and no surprise, I practice that all the time. How much time have I spent in the last five years shooting strong hand -- just a little, and how much shooting support hand -- almost zero. As a result, I was very comfortable drawing quickly, and shooting free style targets -- unfortunately for me, the Rogers course is designed around a complete shooter and not me! The course was also a real eye opener for my wife, as she is a precision rifle and carbine shooter, and extremely accurate pistol shooter -- but has never pushed herself on pistol speed. Day one was very difficult for her, and she made steady progress all week -- yet constantly struggling to get on target fast enough to put her excellent accuracy to work. The good news is, I now have a committed pistol training partner that wants to work together with me on us becoming more complete handgun shooters, and fortunately Bill Rogers has given us a logical training approach based on real human reactions, that we need to do our part with continuous repetition to learn and perform at the subconscious level.

[jlw]

I haven't taken a class directly from Rogers, but the Georgia Public Safety Training Center sent its instructors through the Rogers school and built a similar range. I have also taken a class from a former lead instructor there.

Expect good things.

[David]

http://pistol-training.com/articles/school-review-rogers-shooting-school

[Steven C.]

Rogers has a fairly new video out through www.panteaoproductions.com.

I have seen it multiple times and it is helpful.

[Serpico1985]

Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll ask this question here.

Was talking to a shooting buddy about the possibility of going to Rogers Shooting School at some point in the future. He has been to way more classes than I have and is of the opinion that in rogers your training for a certain course of fire or test rather than a realistic event. He says it's like shooting a skill based drill that should only be used as a metric instead of an entire system.

I disagree with him but I've never been either. For you guys that have been can you explain how rogers is not just shooting a certain test that should be used as a metric over and over for the sake of getting a good grade on the test.

Thanks

[TheTrevor]

Has your shooting buddy actually been to Rogers, or did he form his opinions second-hand? Just curious.

Rogers is about engaging small (8-inch) targets, some of which are partially obstructed, under severe time pressure at widely varying ranges and elevations. Oh, and you shoot entire courses of fire ("tests") freestyle, SHO or WHO, including reloads. Five of the nine tests start with the gun in the holster.

It is not about building IDPA/USPSA move-and-shoot skills, nor is it about making deliberate bullseye shots at fixed ranges. It's not a tactical shoot house or FoF training.

What it does do is thoroughly test a wide range of pistol shooting skills while stressing your mental focus to the limit. It forces you to shoot (accurately) MUCH more quickly than you might previously have been comfortable with. I've never done anything so challenging (or rewarding) in all the time I've been pulling triggers. After standing in that doorway for 5 days, I knew exactly what my strengths and weaknesses were at that point in time.

Also, the night shoot with lights and lasers is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. Or maybe that's just me. :)

[MDS]

What it does do is thoroughly test a wide range of pistol shooting skills while stressing your mental focus to the limit. It forces you to shoot (accurately) MUCH more quickly than you might previously have been comfortable with. I've never done anything so challenging (or rewarding) in all the time I've been pulling triggers. After standing in that doorway for 5 days, I knew exactly what my strengths and weaknesses were at that point in time.

This was my experience as well. At my skill level (I only got intermediate) it was a real eye-opener about what it takes to make that hit RFN. Those plates drop so fast it's a little overwhelming at first, and exploring what it takes - physically and mentally - to shoot at those speeds for a whole 5 days is really enlightening.

Now, there are plenty of good and great shooters out there who have never been, so it's not, like, mandatory or anything. But I've never met anyone who went and then felt like it's a pointless exercise in memorizing a repetitive set of drills - including skeptics who happily and publicly ate crow after the experience.

[jlw]

Because being able to shoot small targets quickly is useless for all other forms of shooting...

[1slow]

I need lots of work but:
Rogers' hugely improved my shooting, particularly at speed. Also the reasons behind Rogers' as presented in the book and lectures helped improve my training methods.

[YVK]

Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll ask this question here.

Was talking to a shooting buddy about the possibility of going to Rogers Shooting School at some point in the future. He has been to way more classes than I have and is of the opinion that in rogers your training for a certain course of fire or test rather than a realistic event. He says it's like shooting a skill based drill that should only be used as a metric instead of an entire system.

I disagree with him but I've never been either. For you guys that have been can you explain how rogers is not just shooting a certain test that should be used as a metric over and over for the sake of getting a good grade on the test.

Thanks


I agree with your friend in many ways. The course is not a mimicry of a realistic event and is much closer to a metric performance than "tactical" training. In fact, I found more things that I disagreed with than agreed on "tactically". I think that Rogers is mostly a cool steel challenge match.
It is also very taxing, and therefore is very useful rom a standpoint of mental focus assessment and training.
It doesn't train one course of fire, it trains shooting transitions at speed in a variety of ways, interjected with a ton of one handed manipulations. How important that is depends on user's preferences.


Spencer:

- Commit early if you'll be shooting from appendix or open, and hit SHO draw hard.

- As GJM said, one handed shooting is the key, and many of us found SHO harder than WHO, for a number of reasons.

- Study TLG's series on Rogers astutely, remember the sequence of each stage before you go there and read his annotations, they are excellent.

[GJM]

It is called the "Rogers Shooting School," and while Rogers techniques are tactically sound, Bill specifically says his goal is to teach shooting skills, which can then be applied to whatever tactics are appropriate to you.

The training largely supports the Rogers School test, repeated identically six times over the five shooting days. This is the same test the Rogers School has been administering for more than two decades. It is a great way to benchmark your progress within the Rogers week, and if you return to Rogers.

Among a number of contributions to the training world, I think what differentiates the Rogers School, is Bill's personal emphasis on one hand shooting at a high level. I bluffed my way through one hand shooting over the years, and only after being humbled at Rogers did I (start) to learn how to shoot with one hand. No, taking on 23 bad guys with just your support hand, from one shooting position is not realistic. However, you can't shoot well at Rogers without being able to shoot at a high level with one hand. I just wish I first went to Rogers 20 years ago.

[Serpico1985]

Thanks for the info guys. Now I can more intelligently argue with my friend.

[jlw]

I concur with GJM. The school is about shooting. It isn't about tactics.

[Will Fennell]

I attended the Rogers Shooting School a few years back, and like was mentioned above, I wish I had done so many years before. It is definitely a "Graduate School" for tactical handgun shooting, not a tactics class. I took a 1911 single stack in 9mm....and while it was certainly a wake up call for strong hand only, and support hand only shooting, my reloads certainly got better over the visit at the school. While it is a very different training experience......I certainly enjoyed the chance to measure my improvement and ability throughout the class.

[taadski]

[Snip] I took a 1911 single stack in 9mm….

Ouch! :p