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ST911
03-17-2013, 07:48 PM
I recently attended a Glock Armorers Course to recertify my cred. The following items are highlights from my notes during the class with additional observations as pertinent. Not all items are new, but may be of current or common interest and discussion.

Instructor: Erich Clark. Erich was a capable instructor who did an excellent job with the class. I’ve had most of those who have taught the AC, and Erich is among the better. He taught well, used the official GI powerpoint, but was not reliant upon it for information transfer. Given some of his background, competencies, and teaching ability thus far I would be interested in trying another course from him.

Class Materials: The guns brought to work on were G23s, standard FG/R (gen3) that were unremarkable. GI provided a new armorers tool, orange slide cover plate to check engagement, the 2013 Glock Annual, and some goodies. The 2013 Armorers Manual was issued, along with two separate addendums, one a “US Addendum” and the other specific to the gen4. The powerpoint for the class can be purchased from GI, following a signed waiver/agreement.

Production in General


Glock is currently making ~5k guns a day or so, and is 1.2M guns backordered. Normal backorder is 100k.

Agency and military orders should expect 90 day delivery. All others, including blue label I/O purchases and commercial customers are 9-12 months.

A 9mm single stack and the carbine exist but are pending release at some point in the future. Glock also makes a suppressor for the overseas market.

“T” models are available in gen4, and a G19T variant is available as well. They incorporate additional blue markings on the slide to insure proper ID as sim guns. They also lack the FX-specific markings due to their compatibility with other similar munitions now available (esp ATK FoF).

Receiver


If you have a receiver with the ambidextrous catch, Glock will swap your receiver for a reversible catch receiver for free.

The medium magazine catch (FBI catch) is available, and about the mid point between the existing standard and extended catches.

The lower receiver is referred to as an MBS, Multi Backstrap System.

New gen4 Glocks have begun shipping with four inserts. One medium, one large, and one of each with a beavertail.

Trigger pins in new guns are applied with a glue-ish compound to prevent corrosion. They should be expected to come out hard at first.

The (.) connector came out 7/22/2011.

The gen4 trigger mechanism housing created a 5-degree difference increasing pull weight to ~6.5#, in addition to fitment issues, necessitating a unique part.

NY1 trigger spring is OD, nominal pull weight of 8#. NY2 spring is orange, and nominal pull weight of 12#.

New cruciform markings: (.)=9/40, 4256-1=45/10, (..)=45gap, “1704”=G36.

Gritty and difficult triggers may be a result of incorrectly oriented coil trigger springs. The coil end rubs along the trigger mechanism housing. The gen4 trigger w/ trigger bar incorporates curvature and a guide slot to orient the spring correctly.

(+) trigger bars, so marked on the cruciform, came about for pre-EH G19s due to a production glitch raising slide rail height and decreasing engagement. In other guns, they can be used to correct engagement issues and other special conditions.

The locking block pin is referred to several times in print as “the first pin”, as it’s the first pin removed and reinstalled.

Manual addition: Blue, red, and orange mag floor plates are listed and pictured.

Slide/Barrel


The slide serrations on the RTF2 were of Austrian origin for purposes of aesthetics. Facing the wrong direction, they function as a “forward assist” for the slide rather than aiding in retraction.

Glock slides and barrels are now nitrided. The change occurred in 2009 in US guns and 2010 in Austrian. Nitration is not tennifer. It still has a hardness of 64 of the Rockwell C scale, and is 99% saltwater corrosion protected. Nitrided slides can be distinguished bv a shinier surface over the flatter black of the tennifer slides.

Glock barrels are now test fired at 200% pressure. The old standard was 130% pressure.

Two guide ring (nose ring) profiles exist in the gen4 affecting RSA fit. Current production has a bevel, and the new RSAs are backwards compatible.

The numbers on the gen4 RSAs should be read left, right, and then bottom. Reading them otherwise has created confusion. Those numbers are not the part number for the RSA, and using them as such will create confusion.

Gen3 and earlier RSAs may have a dash number (###-#). The dash number indicates that it is the current type. Those RSAs have Zytel added for additional heat resistance.

Replace gen3 and earlier RSAs at 2500 rounds. Replace gen4 RSAs at 5000.

The copper substance applied in production is beryllium copper grease, anti-seize compound to prevent corrosion and seizure in guns that may be transported or stored for long intervals. It is Loctite C5A.

The “12:00 test” remains in the curriculum to test the RSA.

The LCI exists to satisfy requirements in states requiring same, and was standardized across production. It should not be relied upon to determine the gun’s loaded status.

Extractor 30274 is now standard in 9mms.

The .40SW round is “already loaded to the brink of explosion.”

FP markings are changing to hash marks from alpha characters. One mark is 9/380, two is 40/357/45GAP, and three is large frames.

Manual addition: The end of the FP spring with the most compressed coils goes forward.

Manual addition: The Glock channel maintenance kit and tools are listed and discussed.

Manual addition: Headspace, barrel, and extractor gauge are listed and discussed.

Manual addition: Different FP springs, along with the maritime spring cups are listed.

Misc


The Glock will run with nine parts removed or in a state of failure, unlike popular competitor product. They are the trigger spring, locking block pin, trigger pin, trigger mechanism housing pin, locking insert in the magazine, FP safety and spring, ejector, and slide stop. The mag release can also be removed and the gun will run, with attention to mag seating.

Current minimum trigger bar/firing pin lug engagement: 66%. If you think you see 50%, you’re probably good.

If you use Hoppes in your Glock, don’t let it sit for extended periods due to the interaction of the ammonium nitrate and nickel. Best to use something else altogether.

Clean the Glock when new, after shooting, monthly, and as necessary. Also noting, it will go for extended periods other than those, but it is advisable for working guns to be clean.

Maintenance acronym: SAMM: Shooter, Ammunition, Maintenance, Mechanical Failure

If you experience functioning problems with attached weapon lights, the problem is usually corrected by backing out the attachment screw, having a good (new) RSA, and 11-coil mag springs (10-coil in compacts).

Manual addition: There is a factory recommended spare parts list published.

Witty quotes from the class:

Student, re: the S&W Sigma (“Smegma”): “Why do you want a gun named after the cheese that grows under your ball sack?”

Instructor: “What does oil attract?”
Student: “Morons.”

Student: “Inside every G23 is a G19 trying to get out.”

Instructor, re: low LE shooting performance standards: “No shooter left behind.”

Student, re: the extended slide stop lever: “why would I need an extended lever to hold the slide open?”

SeriousStudent
03-17-2013, 08:01 PM
Interesting information, thanks for passing it along.

MD7305
03-17-2013, 08:36 PM
Thanks for posting. I should hopefully be catching AC in June. Can you elaborate on the Hoppes issue? I'm curious because I frequently use Hoppes #9 on my Glocks.

JV_
03-18-2013, 04:14 AM
Thanks for posting. I should hopefully be catching AC in June. Can you elaborate on the Hoppes issue? I'm curious because I frequently use Hoppes #9 on my Glocks.

It will make the nickel coating peel/flake.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

JSGlock34
03-18-2013, 07:51 PM
Thanks for posting - some good information in here.

S Jenks
03-19-2013, 03:36 AM
A 9mm single stack and the carbine exist but are pending release at some point in the future. Glock also makes a suppressor for the overseas market.


Lies!!

JV_
03-19-2013, 05:20 AM
The (disposable) Glock suppressor isn't a secret. There are demo videos available on YouTube.

Mitchell, Esq.
03-19-2013, 09:15 AM
Singlestack 9mm?

Yeah. Right.

I also believe in strippers working their way through school.

BigT
03-20-2013, 12:46 PM
Lies!!



Yeah the disposable cans are available in 40 and 45. Pretty quiet.

Savage Hands
03-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Did they mention anything about the erratic ejection problems?

ST911
03-22-2013, 06:42 PM
Did they mention anything about the erratic ejection problems?

The course reviewed proper function, cycle of operation, diagnostic methods, preventative maintenance, and corrective action to resolve issues likely in the field, and how to receive tech/warranty service.

Any perceived or actual issues would be identified and addressed via the above.

Copabeat
03-23-2013, 08:09 AM
Great information, thank you for posting it.

dickmadison
03-23-2013, 01:30 PM
Awesome post - did he mention why they moved away from Tenifer to nitriding? I miss tennifer :(

JV_
03-23-2013, 02:26 PM
I miss tennifer :(I find the (new) black portion of the finish (phosphate) to be far more durable than the black that was applied during the tenifier days.

I've had Gen4 guns with 5000'ish rounds through them and the barrel wear, and holster wear, are like a Gen3 w/ 500 rounds.

ToddG
03-24-2013, 02:58 PM
Skintop911, none of this is directed at you personally or even Mr. Clark. These are just comments based on my experience in the industry and specifically based on the years I spent dealing with the armorer instructors at Beretta and SIG:


A 9mm single stack and the carbine exist but are pending release at some point in the future.

Color me skeptical, especially given the out of control demand for carbines right now in particular. I guess it depends on what was meant by "exist." If we're talking drawings or even a rough early prototype, sure. But gun companies don't spend the time and money to develop and test new firearms just to let them sit on the shelves for months or years.


Trigger pins in new guns are applied with a glue-ish compound to prevent corrosion. They should be expected to come out hard at first.

Again, skeptical. People have been complaining about the pin/hole issue for a couple of years now and this is the first I heard that it was due to a glue. I know that the first pin and trigger pin on my test G17 gen4 required a hammer and punch to remove early on and no one at Glock claimed it had anything to do with glue; nor was there are such residue on the pins when they finally came out.


The slide serrations on the RTF2 were of Austrian origin for purposes of aesthetics. Facing the wrong direction, they function as a “forward assist” for the slide rather than aiding in retraction.

Glad to see that admitted. Now all the fanbois can stop pretending it's some special physics- and anatomy-defying discovery.


Glock slides and barrels are now nitrided. The change occurred in 2009 in US guns and 2010 in Austrian. Nitration is not tennifer. It still has a hardness of 64 of the Rockwell C scale, and is 99% saltwater corrosion protected. Nitrided slides can be distinguished bv a shinier surface over the flatter black of the tennifer slides.

Any comment on why the change?


Glock barrels are now test fired at 200% pressure. The old standard was 130% pressure.

Again, skeptical. Proof loads, both in Germany and the US, are specified by established standards. The suggestion that the G29 is being tested at 75kpsi and the G31/32/33 are being tested at 80kpsi is very difficult to believe especially given the fact that the underlying steel in Glock's barrels is not known to be particularly special in any way.


Gen3 and earlier RSAs may have a dash number (###-#). The dash number indicates that it is the current type. Those RSAs have Zytel added for additional heat resistance.

While the zytel certainly doesn't hurt, I wonder if anyone under any normal circumstances had heat-related issues with the earlier RSAs. To the best of my knowledge, it didn't become a "problem" until the M&P came out, where S&W salesman would run side by side tests of a Glock and M&P by firing 2k rounds through each as fast as they could. Under that kind of utterly impractical circumstance the Glock RSA would, in fact, fail.


Replace gen3 and earlier RSAs at 2500 rounds. Replace gen4 RSAs at 5000.

Interesting. Both of those numbers are substantially lower than originally published. When the gen4 first came out, they were saying 10k.


The “12:00 test” remains in the curriculum to test the RSA.

That's very interesting, as it had been removed from the curriculum for quite some time.


The LCI exists to satisfy requirements in states requiring same, and was standardized across production. It should not be relied upon to determine the gun’s loaded status.

While I understand the point they're making, I'm always amused when a manufacturer says "our thingamajig should not be used as a thingamajig."


The .40SW round is “already loaded to the brink of explosion.”

I would have asked how they manage to get proof loads at twice the SAAMI spec, then. :cool:


Manual addition: Headspace, barrel, and extractor gauge are listed and discussed.

That's excellent. While Glock has long prided itself on the illusion that one simple punch was its complete armorer kit, giving agencies and serious shooters some gauges to track actual functionality is laudable. I wish more companies did the same.


The Glock will run with nine parts removed or in a state of failure, unlike popular competitor product. They are the trigger spring, locking block pin, trigger pin, trigger mechanism housing pin, locking insert in the magazine, FP safety and spring, ejector, and slide stop. The mag release can also be removed and the gun will run, with attention to mag seating.

It would be interesting to hear from someone at S&W on this issue, as I imagine they could list a bunch of parts that can be broken or removed from their guns, too, without failing. Many brands/models will still function with the trigger return spring broke. For SIG, we used to claim the same thing with the quiet caveat that the gun would have to be held upside down while it was fired... but on paper, "fires even with the trigger return spring broken."


Maintenance acronym: SAMM: Shooter, Ammunition, Maintenance, Mechanical Failure

I assume this is meant as the order in which to examine things if there is a problem?


Manual addition: There is a factory recommended spare parts list published.

That's awesome. I'd love to see it.


Instructor: “What does oil attract?”
Student: “Morons.”

Excellent.


Student, re: the extended slide stop lever: “why would I need an extended lever to hold the slide open?”

Also excellent.

Thanks for taking the time to type out your notes!

ST911
03-24-2013, 07:33 PM
I find the (new) black portion of the finish (phosphate) to be far more durable than the black that was applied during the tenifier days.

I've had Gen4 guns with 5000'ish rounds through them and the barrel wear, and holster wear, are like a Gen3 w/ 500 rounds.

I'm watching a batch of gen4s (mostly 9mm) and noticed this as well as I document and photograph them. Earlier models show finish wear earlier and more significantly than current models, internally and externally.


Skintop911, none of this is directed at you personally or even Mr. Clark. These are just comments based on my experience in the industry and specifically based on the years I spent dealing with the armorer instructors at Beretta and SIG:

No worries. I knew you'd have a few. ;)


Again, skeptical. People have been complaining about the pin/hole issue for a couple of years now and this is the first I heard that it was due to a glue. I know that the first pin and trigger pin on my test G17 gen4 required a hammer and punch to remove early on and no one at Glock claimed it had anything to do with glue; nor was there are such residue on the pins when they finally came out.

First I'd heard of that as well, but I have noticed a harder pin removal in the last few years of production than earlier. I don't notice any residue either.


Any comment on why the change?

I vaguely recall mention that it was a process easier to do and manage (regulatory? environmental?), but have no notes on it. That does wash with earlier explanations elsewhere.


While the zytel certainly doesn't hurt, I wonder if anyone under any normal circumstances had heat-related issues with the earlier RSAs. To the best of my knowledge, it didn't become a "problem" until the M&P came out, where S&W salesman would run side by side tests of a Glock and M&P by firing 2k rounds through each as fast as they could. Under that kind of utterly impractical circumstance the Glock RSA would, in fact, fail.

Would the added zytel offer anything in rigidity or overall structural integrity in addition to heat resistance?


I assume this is meant as the order in which to examine things if there is a problem?

Correct to my memory.


That's awesome. I'd love to see it.

For clarity, it's a list of recommended spares for agency armories, by number of guns supported.

ToddG
03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
First I'd heard of that as well, but I have noticed a harder pin removal in the last few years of production than earlier. I don't notice any residue either.

Thus my skepticism. I think the pin/hole issue has something to do with size or angle changes. "It's glue" is exactly the kind of made-up justification that spreads through an armorer instructor cadre, leaving the majority of the guys innocently ignorant of the facts.

I could certainly be wrong, but since Glock pins weren't exactly falling out to begin with it seems... unlikely.


I vaguely recall mention that it was a process easier to do and manage (regulatory? environmental?), but have no notes on it. That does wash with earlier explanations elsewhere.

Makes sense. I'm sure Bill R. could write a thesis on the differences between the two, but as an end user I don't find it meaningful.


Would the added zytel offer anything in rigidity or overall structural integrity in addition to heat resistance?

Given the recommendation to replace every 2,500 rounds, I'd guess not.

As for the SAMM thing, while it doesn't sound as cool I'd think "maintenance" would come before "ammunition," especially at the agency level where quality ammo is likely used.

Ray Keith
03-25-2013, 10:48 AM
Do current armorers get updated in any way on new information? I have never received a thing from them. It's like being a CHL instructor in Texas, thank goodness I'm still enjoying the 2009 newsletter or I'd be upset.

ST911
03-25-2013, 12:27 PM
Do current armorers get updated in any way on new information? I have never received a thing from them. It's like being a CHL instructor in Texas, thank goodness I'm still enjoying the 2009 newsletter or I'd be upset.

No, not generally. The recertification cycle is intended to manage needed updates. Not as speedily as when it was two years, but it's probably often enough. Not much changes, and almost none of it is critical.

Better maintainers and programs will have periodic contact with their field rep(s). Some reps are more active than others as well.

LOKNLOD
03-25-2013, 12:44 PM
As for the SAMM thing, while it doesn't sound as cool I'd think "maintenance" would come before "ammunition," especially at the agency level where quality ammo is likely used.

My personal version is SMARMY -
Shooter
Maintenance,
Ammo,
Really are you sure about the shooter?,
Mechanical Failure,
Yeah it turned out to be the shooter.

TR675
03-25-2013, 01:04 PM
My personal version is SMARMY -
Shooter
Maintenance,
Ammo,
Really are you sure about the shooter?,
Mechanical Failure,
Yeah it turned out to be the shooter.

Where is the "sustained applause" smiley?

I am curious: why does oil attract morons? I don't get it. I mean, yeah, blah blah blah "5 drops of oil lubes a Glock per the manual" but I've always been under the impression that mo' oil (at least on metal to metal moving parts) = mo' better.

ToddG
03-25-2013, 01:25 PM
My personal version is SMARMY

Dude. That's excellent. If you thought that up yourself, take a bow.

JonInWA
03-26-2013, 04:18 PM
Todd (and others), the reason that was passed on to be by a reputable source in Glock for the change to Zytel was that a LEO in the Southeastern US (presumably one positioned to place a fairly large order) mandated a recoil spring guide capable of sustaining 1K rounds of presumably continuous (or nearly continuous) firing without losing its integrity (i.e., melting).

Yeah, it struck me as pretty silly as well. However, the Zytel has worked well over the years since it's introduction, and is a bit stiffer than the previous polymer recoil spring guide, perhaps cutting into the rationale of the after-market cottage industry for the "need" of a steel or tungsten recoil spring guide...

I imagine mall ninjas throughout the world collectively rejoice at the opportunities awaiting to use their saddle-drum magazines without harming the RSA. Now we just need a belt-fed version of the G18...

Best, Jon

Up1911Fan
05-07-2013, 11:47 PM
Nice review of the course. I'm taking this class next week, should be a fun day off work.

Chance
06-16-2013, 04:41 PM
Many brands/models will still function with the trigger return spring broke. For SIG, we used to claim the same thing with the quiet caveat that the gun would have to be held upside down while it was fired... but on paper, "fires even with the trigger return spring broken."

It's been a while, but I believe that was demonstrated in my Glock Armorer's Course. Someone quipped that was why gangstas hold their gun sideways.

Gary1911A1
06-17-2013, 05:49 AM
This thread is a good read. Did the topic of Gen 4 Glocks reportedly being more accurate and why that is so come up? Thanks.

JHC
06-20-2013, 07:27 PM
This thread is a good read. Did the topic of Gen 4 Glocks reportedly being more accurate and why that is so come up? Thanks.

+1 good read. And good follow up question.

Todd!!! You are skeptical of most of the Glock issued talking points EXCEPT the fish gills one. ;) "Art is the end of science and the beginning of Nature" (Lee) I'll take the gills on every Glock any time. lol

PS - That TRB on the Warren would have been sure with gills. ;)

thebronze
04-20-2014, 09:58 PM
It's been a while, but I believe that was demonstrated in my Glock Armorer's Course. Someone quipped that was why gangstas hold their gun sideways.


That's actually funny!! Someone gives Gangsta's WAY too much credit...