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Gewehr3
04-19-2011, 09:52 AM
Greetings,

My issued SIG P220R is exhibiting two malfunctions. First, the pistol will have a failure to feed. The nose of the cartridge will get caught on the top of the chamber as the pistol attempts to load. This happens with both JHP and FMJ rounds, 3 different OEM 8 rd. magazines, and when the slide is released via the slide stop or manually cycled. The pistol serial number is a GRXX

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Sig_23.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Sig_12.JPG

The second malfunction is where the pistol will not return fully into battery, and must be nudge closed. This occurs even when the pistol is clean and well lubed.

Can anyone offer any insight as to fix these problems?

Thank you!

John Ralston
04-19-2011, 10:12 AM
When did you last replace the recoil spring? How about the mag springs?

Looks like the round isn't get up behind the extractor.

Rverdi
04-19-2011, 11:17 AM
Since it's occurring first round out of the magazine, I'd lean more towards a weak recoil spring. I'd replace it, make sure the chamber is clean and run it.
Let us know how you make out.

ToddG
04-19-2011, 04:25 PM
Given the lack of external extractor, I'd guess your pistol is at least a few years old.

There were a number of identified but never fully resolved issues with the P220R/P220ST internal extractors... so much so that the company finally gave in and developed an external extractor for the gun:
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/P220BSS-Detail-R.jpg

I can tell you from long personally history, there is no permanent dependable solution to the internal extractor problem available from SIG beyond installing a brand new (external extractor) slide. Quite a few P220 carrying agencies abandoned their SIGs over it.

My understanding is that Gray Guns has an aftermarket extractor which is supposed to solve the problem, but I've never tried it or known anyone personally who's done so.

Gewehr3
04-19-2011, 11:50 PM
Thanks for the insights! I'm not so thrilled to hear that my duty gun may not be a readily fixed.

ToddG
04-20-2011, 12:16 AM
If it's the extractor -- and obviously that's just one possibility -- you can replace the part assuming SIG still supports it. However, in my experience, over time the extractor will most likely fail again. Back when Ernest Langdon was shooting the P220ST in competition, he literally used to cook his extractors in his oven trying to heat treat them more properly but even then he'd still have to replace them every x-thousand rounds.

WDW
04-20-2011, 02:57 AM
Well since it's an issued duty gun this won't matter, but I would call Sig, complain about having an unreliable weapon, and sort of insist they send you a new slide with an external extractor since they know the internal ones ain't working right.

John Hearne
04-20-2011, 12:19 PM
Those are classic issues with the stainless slide, internal extractor P220. Sig had issues with properly heat treating the parts. If they made them too weak, you'd get failures to extract and double feeds. If they made them too strong, you get the problems you're seeing.

I've had mixed luck with new parts from Sig fixing the problem. One of my Match slides had the extractor fail (too soft) at about 750 rounds. Sent it back to Sig, got a new extractor and the new one lasted about 750 rounds. My other Match slide has run great. I suspect that it will eventually start to fail but it hasn't yet.

You may want to contact Sig. I think they were offering deals on external extractor P220 slides.

Gewehr3
04-20-2011, 03:46 PM
I spoke with SIG customer service today. The rep recommended that I send in the pistol for their "Service Package", which is basically changing springs. The only other advice he had was to replace the recoil spring. I mentioned the internal extractor potentially being the issue, and he quickly dismissed that as a cause.

I guess I'll try the replacing the recoil spring first, although the current recoil spring feels quite stout.

fuse
04-20-2011, 04:11 PM
Ouch.

Yeah, he gave you the run around.

I hate hearing about stuff like that from a once great company.

John Ralston
04-20-2011, 04:46 PM
Ouch.

Yeah, he gave you the run around.

I hate hearing about stuff like that from a once great company.

I agree...not sure what to do about my P220 (formed steel slide), now that it appears they won't have the parts to bring it back to life, should it fail. After reading ToddG's post about parts, I looked online, and the Breech Block is sold out or unavailable at every place that lists them.

John Hearne
04-20-2011, 05:47 PM
Apparently, after a four year wait, Bruce Grey will be releasing his new extractor for the stainless slide, internal extractor P220. If its like the original design, it requires minor machining of the slide to make it work so it won't be a drop-in part. There is a thread at Sigforum about the new extractor.

Gewehr3
05-17-2011, 11:59 PM
Update:

I was able to have the recoil spring replaced, and have the magazines cleaned. I test fired about 50 rds. through the pistol, and did not experience any malfunctions.

Thanks all for the advice.

WDW
05-18-2011, 12:26 AM
Update:

I was able to have the recoil spring replaced, and have the magazines cleaned. I test fired about 50 rds. through the pistol, and did not experience any malfunctions.

Thanks all for the advice.
If you can, I'd run about 500rds through that thing, it being a duty gun and all, before I would trust it again. Awesome though if it's just a simple fix like a recoil spring. I ran across a guy the other day on a really good forum here in TN, www.tngunowners.com, where a guy had an older P220 w/an internal extractor that he claimed to have 30,000+ rds w/few if any malfunctions.

Gewehr3
09-03-2011, 08:31 PM
Update:

The pistol is still having issues returning to battery during a string of fire, and often will not lock the slide back on the magazine. My armorer supposedly replaced the recoil spring.

Can anyone recommend a good source of Sig springs?

Also, would a Wolff 24 lb. recoil spring be a possible solution to the failure to return to battery issue?

Thanks!

ToddG
09-03-2011, 10:10 PM
Failure to lockback on SIGs is caused by shooter error 95% of the time, and very often by people who are certain they are not the cause of the problem. Load up all of your magazines with one round and shoot each of them left hand only (doesn't matter if you're right or left handed). Note any magazines that fail to lock the slide back. If they all lock back, then the gun and mags are fine and inadvertently you're riding the slide release during recoil.

Many things could be contributing to the failure to go into battery, but regardless of the cause it's a serious problem. If your armorer can't fix it, the gun needs to return to SIG for inspection.

Gewehr3
09-04-2011, 08:37 PM
Thank you for the suggestions Todd.

John Hearne
09-05-2011, 10:36 PM
The extractor tension is too great. The good news is that it should loosen up and run fine for a while before it fails catastrophically.

I was taking a Bruce Gray class and my P220 suddenly started double feeding - like multiple times in a magazine. Bruce pulled the extractor and tried to tweak it and get it running again. When the extractor had too much tension, it would do just what your picture is showing. Despite Bruce's best efforts we could not get it right and the gun was DRT.

I'm working with Sig on my issue and I think I can get a complete P220 slide assembly for ~$250. If you need something right now, I've seen the caliber X-Change kits for as low as $286. That's a complete slide, barrel, recoil spring assembly and night sights.

For instance:
http://store.prairiearms.com/store/product/99591/SIG-P220-CAL-X-CHANGE-KIT-45AC/

If you're willing to wait, Bruce swears that his new P220 extractor fix should be out very soon. Besides a new extractor with proper tension, they machine the slide to allow the extractor to sit higher. Bruce swears that the extractor should be good for the life of the gun.

DocGKR
09-06-2011, 10:37 PM
It has been my experience that the P220 is the worst classic service pistol Sig makes (carefully worded to exempt the odious P250). I was issued a German made, rolled slide P220 nearly 2 decades ago; it was so problematic that I got rid of it within 6 months and purchased a S&W 4566 which was a joy in comparison.

John Ralston
09-07-2011, 11:06 AM
I will have to pull mine out (West German rolled slide) and put some serious rounds through it in the next few months. I have not had any issues with it using factory ammo, but have not put very many rounds through it either.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

LittleLebowski
05-18-2012, 12:14 PM
Was Bruce Gray's extractor ever released?

NEPAKevin
05-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Was Bruce Gray's extractor ever released?

There was a thread on SIGForum that they were available, however, I received no reply from GGI to my inquiry to order one. I can't find the link to that thread but did find the one copied below. HTH

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4210076582?r=4210076582#4210076582

and this...

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4770084882?r=4770084882#4770084882

John Hearne
05-20-2012, 08:09 AM
Was Bruce Gray's extractor ever released?

Bruce has had one of my P220 Match slides since October or November, waiting for the new extractor. The answer to my last query was that it was still a work in progress. I'm willing to be patient and the slide is fairly worthless without a working extractor.

NEPAKevin
05-26-2012, 09:57 AM
FWIW, I replaced the extractor in a 220ST that was having one or two FTEs on every mag, with one from Top Gun Supply which I assume is OEM. Ran six mags through the gun with no FTEs and the only major failure was my bringing the wrong ammo to practice. :o

ToddG
05-26-2012, 11:12 AM
The internal extractor used in the original P220ST guns wears quickly. Some will go thousands of rounds, others might go just hundreds.

John Hearne
05-26-2012, 11:30 AM
I've had four stainless slides with the internal extractor. In order of manufacture:

The first is an early P220ST with skinny rail. It has run flawlessly, at least 10,000 rounds.

The second is an early P220ST with conventional rail. I had very sporadic failures to go into battery that are typically associated with excessive extractor tension when I first got the gun. No other extractor problems with this gun, at least 12,000 rounds.

Third is a 5" match slide with fixed sights. The slide ran about 750 rounds before it started to double feed. It was returned to Sig and the extractor replaced. The second extractor ran about 750 rounds before it started double feeding.

Fourth is a 5" match slide with fixed sights. The slide ran 5,000 plus rounds with no issues. Suddenly, in a Bruce Grey class, it started to double feed. Bruce attempted to retension and reshape the extractor but he could not bring it back to life.

All of my 5" match slides are out of service, awaiting an adequate fix. One is in Oregon in Bruce Gray's hands with the promise that I'll get a new extractor when it's available.

ToddG
05-26-2012, 11:54 AM
It's hit or miss, definitely. I was one of the hardest people to convince the problem existed back in '04 because my ST ran like a top for more than 10k. Then that extractor had problems, so I replaced it. The next extractor had problems early, as did the third.