Hammer Fired Options? [Archive]

Captain

03-10-2013, 07:55 PM

I recently started carrying my M&P9 AIWB and love it - I wasn't sure I'd be comfortable with it at all given my weight, but I really like carrying there. Way, way back in the day I carried a 1911, but other than that I have no experience with hammer fired guns.

I was thinking of (attempting) to trade my M&P9 for something hammer fired, to add that 2nd layer of protection as I transition to AIWB full time, but I don't really know what the options are. I want to stay 9mm and I want something known for reliability.

I was looking at Sig and HK, but it seems like modern Sigs are not quite up to their previous W.German standards... So, what are my options for a modern, preferably polymer (I do not miss the weight of the 1911), reliable (for carry), 9mm hammer-fired guns? Is it primarily HK?

Thanks for the help.

ToddG

03-10-2013, 07:58 PM

HK would certainly be my first choice, but I'm a fanboi.

Plenty of people around here (the forum) have had good success with SIGs lately. I still put it in the "roll the dice" category but from a design and shootability standpoint, they're excellent guns.

You might also consider simply converting your M&P9 to the thumb model variant. Then holstering AIWB has the same benefit of a gun like the 1911. As you're already practiced with a 1911, the transition back to the thumb safety operation should be pretty easy. This solution has the benefit of using your existing mags, pouches, and other accessories as well as most (?) holsters.

Captain

03-10-2013, 08:02 PM

That's a good point about the thumb safety - but I was under the impression that if my pistol was bought without one that it couldn't be converted to use one... is this not true?

nwhpfan

03-10-2013, 09:13 PM

That's a good point about the thumb safety - but I was under the impression that if my pistol was bought without one that it couldn't be converted to use one... is this not true?

It can be done but I'd suggest selling it outright and buying a P30 or P2000 in LEM. Me, I have the P2K and it's a fine pistol. If I were starting from scratch I'd go with the P30L LEM. Keeping my thumb on the hammer makes me feel better when re holstering.

ToddG

03-10-2013, 09:31 PM

It can be done but I'd suggest selling it outright and buying a P30 or P2000 in LEM. Me, I have the P2K and it's a fine pistol. If I were starting from scratch I'd go with the P30L LEM. Keeping my thumb on the hammer makes me feel better when re holstering.

OK, you convinced me. I'll vote P30 LEM too. :cool:

JodyH

03-10-2013, 09:54 PM

P2000 LEM is my vote.

SecondsCount

03-10-2013, 10:06 PM

HK P30 or P2000 with the LEM trigger. The P2000 is easier to conceal but the P30 has some nice upgrades.

GJM

03-10-2013, 10:48 PM

YVK

03-11-2013, 12:10 AM

That's a good point about the thumb safety - but I was under the impression that if my pistol was bought without one that it couldn't be converted to use one... is this not true?

Majority, if not all current M&Ps have guts compatible with thumb safety. You need to have somebody knowledgeable examine your gun and see if it can be done. However, S&W wouldn't sell three little parts that are needed to carry out the conversion, and your only hope for those is secondary market. Your most cost effective solution, assuming you're invested in MPs mag- and gear wise, is to trade yours for S model.
Overall though hammer-fired option is more ergonomic and has a wider margin of safety (IMO) than MP with safety in a context of an appendix carry.

David B.

03-11-2013, 12:30 AM

Don't overlook the Beretta.

God bless,
David

TGS

03-11-2013, 12:38 AM

I am fond of Sig pistols these days, because they have all the hammer related benefits of the HK, but I shoot them better, especially one hand.

While all but one of my HK's are LEM, I would be seriously tempted to get the no thumb safety, DA/SA P30 and send it to Gray Guns for their reduced reset/trigger job, as I think I can shoot that better than LEM, especially one hand. (Anyone know if the thumb safety on the P30/S can be removed?)

Have you tried a GGI job on a v3 P series? I'm curious to see if you could measure any difference in your performance.

The reset is cool, but I couldn't quantify any better performance with my P2000 v3 post-GGI. I shot exactly the same scores on things like Dot Torture, 1-2-r-3, bill drills and FAST. Huge waste of $500, in my experience. If the P-series trigger can be described as a wet potato chip, then I'd call mine a wet potato chip that has been freeze-dried. I still think a stock Beretta 92 or SIG SRT are better triggers than my GGI worked P2000. I otherwise like the P2000 enough that if it made the trigger as good as one of those, I would have been thrilled......which is why I spent such an absurd amount of money.

As for the OP: my vote is P30 if you wear an undershirt, P2000 if you don't wear an undershirt.

Archimagirus

03-11-2013, 02:36 AM

People seem to be having decent enough luck with the Sig 2022's. Polymer, hammer fired, meets most if not all of your requirements, but holster support might be iffy. I was going to pick one up but then I found a screamin' deal here on the forum for a 229r.

ADKilla

03-11-2013, 03:46 AM

Your most cost effective solution, assuming you're invested in MPs mag- and gear wise, is to trade yours for S model.
Overall though hammer-fired option is more ergonomic and has a wider margin of safety (IMO) than MP with safety in a context of an appendix carry.

+1

I prefer HK P30 or HK P2000sk with LEM

1986s4

03-11-2013, 10:11 AM

For myself, I have narrowed down my AIWB carry to: my P-30 V3 [SA/DA w/decock] and a .357 S&W M13, 3" barrel. While experimenting [dry fire] I have found the revolver can be deployed very quikly by just drawing it out enough to clear the 3" barrel and flipping it flat to point at the target very close to the body. No slide recoil to hit the stomach.

rudy99

03-11-2013, 10:21 AM

You might also consider simply converting your M&P9 to the thumb model variant. Then holstering AIWB has the same benefit of a gun like the 1911. As you're already practiced with a 1911, the transition back to the thumb safety operation should be pretty easy. This solution has the benefit of using your existing mags, pouches, and other accessories as well as most (?) holsters.

I've recently had almost the same question as the OP (wanting to go hammer fired for AIWB), but thought about the thumb safety M&P as an option as well, since my experience has been mainly with striker fire pistols (Glock/M&P). This leads me to the following question (hopefully this isn't much thread drift):

For someone who has only experience with striker fired pistols, would it be easier to transition to a hammer fire pistol (with LEM, DAK or other non-DA/SA trigger) or would it be easier to transition to another striker with a thumb safety? This probably depends on the shooter, but I'd appreciate some thoughts from people who have noticed any trends from instructing others on this transition.

On one hand, you just have to flick the safety off once, whereas with a hammer fired pistol, the "change" is on every trigger pull. On the other hand, if you mess up the safety, you get no boom, but you'll always fire one off with the hammer fired pistol.

ToddG

03-11-2013, 11:52 AM

Smart question...

Properly dealing with a thumb safety is a matter of hard wiring a habit, which for many people means a slight change in their grip. Essentially, your strong thumb needs to LIVE atop the safety lever. Tensing your grip to fire, then, naturally includes disengaging the safety. As someone who shot non-safety guns exclusively for more than a decade, the thumb safety transition to the 1911 was only a problem for me when doing dry demos of things like malf clearances. I'd forget to disengage the safety so the slide wouldn't rack.

A DA trigger is a different story. While I'm a big fan, I think it's hard to suggest going from a tuned Glock to an LEM would be as quick and easy as learning to shelf your thumb on a safety. On the other hand, switching to a new trigger mechanism can be a great way to re-educate and improve one's overall trigger control.

GJM

03-11-2013, 12:01 PM

This thread prompted me to closely compare the triggers on my 226R with SRT, HK P30 LEM TLG, and P30/s.

Not that it is likely to happen soon, but I would love to see a P30 with the Sig SRT DA/SA trigger.

ToddG

03-11-2013, 12:10 PM

Not that it is likely to happen soon, but I would love to see a P30 with the Sig SRT DA/SA trigger.

They could do it overnight. HK just doesn't get it. Someone suggested to me recently that our own Tom Jones ought to do it. :cool:

LHS

03-11-2013, 01:19 PM

I'll also voice my preference for the Beretta. Plenty of support in terms of mags, holsters, accessories, custom work, etc. The guns are reliable and shootable, albeit a bit large by modern standards. Also much cheaper than the HKs.

CCT125US

03-11-2013, 01:22 PM

They could do it overnight. HK just doesn't get it. Someone suggested to me recently that our own Tom Jones ought to do it. :cool:

I would consider funding such a project......

JV_

03-11-2013, 01:23 PM

I would consider funding such a project......

Kickstarter....

GJM

03-11-2013, 01:30 PM

I am in, too.

Jac

03-11-2013, 07:16 PM

Let him finish the Gadget first, guys!

GJM

03-11-2013, 07:50 PM

I called Tom to "give" him his new assignment. Cell reception was poor on my end, but it did seem like he was repeatedly muttering a word sounding like Gidget.

Captain

03-12-2013, 09:02 PM

I know that my M&P won't convert without cutting into the frame... though with all the stippling and shaping I've done on it, it's not like I'm afraid of that...

I'll have to think on this... I don't want to make a change just because the more primitive side of me said "Shiny!"...

LHS

03-13-2013, 09:55 AM

Captain

03-15-2013, 10:33 AM

That would be correct. I jumped on the M&P bandwagon during TLG's endurance testing.

Thinking about it, I might just save my sheckels and delaying buying a new gun until I can afford to do so and keep my M&P. Between the home-done stippling and all the APEX parts, I'm not sure I'd get much out of the gun...

Sounds like you've got one of the earlier ones without the frame cutout. You'll need a new sear block as well, then.

Captain

03-22-2013, 01:59 PM

Well, I think I'll throw it on a couple of boards to see if anyone feels like trading. Couldn't hurt to try.

BoppaBear

03-22-2013, 09:49 PM

+1 on the P30 V3. I switch between it and my sk V3, both AIWB.

DBLAction454

03-23-2013, 02:05 AM

Captain

03-24-2013, 09:33 PM

I have an offer for a USP in .40S&W. I'm not familiar with the USPs. Would I be able to convert this to 9mm with factory parts? Thoughts on this pistol? The offer says its a light LEM, but the HK website doesn't list it as being offered in LEM. Is the USP available in LEM and able to be converted to the other LEM variants?

HCM

03-25-2013, 08:14 AM

The USP and USP Compacts can be converted to any HK Trigger configuration including LEM and LEM with maual Safety.

I don't recall seeing aftermarket 9mm caliber conversion barrels for the USP.

GT Distributors, a Police supply store in Austin, TX, has LE trade in USP's in 9mm for $599-

You'll need to call or check their FB

Dave J

03-25-2013, 09:41 AM

I dabbled in USPs a few years back. IMHO, they are mechanically rock solid, but are bulky, blocky guns with sub-optimal ergonomics for most shooters. Obviously, this is very much an individual thing, so I'd strongly suggest you try before you buy.

From what I've seen as far as parts availability, I don't think a caliber conversion would make financial sense. You could do it, but it'll cost a lot less to find a PD trade in USP9 in the first place.

The USPs use a proprietary light rail that complicates WML mounting. There are adapters available to mount a standard WML, but those add another variable to holster selection.

For years, my biggest complaint with the USPs was the lack of good aftermarket sights, but now you can choose between Heinie's or Trijicon HD's, so that's not really a problem anymore.

Magazine availability might be a concern. They're out there, but they're expensive. (ETA: I guess no worse than any HK product in this regard)

With regards to the USP, the difference between a "light" and "heavy" LEM depends only on the trigger return spring. The "light" version uses the same TRS as the non-LEM guns, the "heavy" version uses the TRS that is included with the LEM conversion kit. I tried both, and preferred the heavy version, FWIW.

HTH,
Dave

Captain

03-25-2013, 10:05 AM

Good info... Sounds like I should probably pass, especially with the caliber issue.

deeHKman

03-25-2013, 05:29 PM

Another vote for a P30 V3. I didn't enjoy carrying it but that's just me. I carry a full size USP45 so it wasn't the size

But as far as reliability and comfortability it was a sweet sweet gun. I sold it to my brother as his first handgun and he LOVES it to death

-DBLAction454

This^^ i put the lfpbs in my P30s and LS v3 9mm's. I had no problem adapting to the factory but the lighter spring
made them just ideal imo...but i carry a HK45c...good luck...

Captain

04-06-2013, 05:54 PM

Traded for a DA/SA P30. I know there is a non-HK approved LEM conversion kit out there - what do I need to get with it to get the TLG LEM setup?

Also, mags - factory only or are there 3rd party options? Best place to buy?

Captain

04-07-2013, 02:51 PM

Will this "universal" kit work on the P30?

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-LEM-Kit-Complete-For-USP-USP-Compact-Pistols-On-Sale-Lowest-Price-Anywhere-p316.htm

JBP55

04-07-2013, 06:18 PM

ToddG

04-08-2013, 09:06 AM

Will this "universal" kit work on the P30?

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-LEM-Kit-Complete-For-USP-USP-Compact-Pistols-On-Sale-Lowest-Price-Anywhere-p316.htm

I doubt it. The kit appears to be specific to the USP series (which includes the HK45/HK45C) and not the P2000 series (which includes the P30/P30L).

Captain

04-08-2013, 09:21 AM

Thanks Todd - still trying to figure out the ins and outs - so the P30 is considered part of the same line as the P2000 and P2KSK. The USP and HK45s are part of the older design line. Gotcha.

hkparts.net seems to have all the springs in stock - I just need a source for the four main parts:

Sear: 209320
Bobbed Hammer: 209321
Cocking Piece: 209265
Cocking Piece Spring: 209275

DucNaked

04-08-2013, 09:36 AM

Will this "universal" kit work on the P30?

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-LEM-Kit-Complete-For-USP-USP-Compact-Pistols-On-Sale-Lowest-Price-Anywhere-p316.htm

I believe that kit will work. Here's a link to the conversion.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/169453-how-convert-v3-da-sa-p30-p30l-v1-v2-lem.html

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/178086-can-p30s-p30ls-converted-v3-da-sa-lem.html

mclenniston

04-09-2013, 05:42 PM

I'll add my vote for the M&P with thumb safety. I have both with and without, and I've never considered appendix carry with the one that has no thumb safety.

Captain

04-19-2013, 08:34 PM

Got the P30's LEM installed. I like this much better than V3. Excellent. Now to find affordable mags and ammo.

Mr. Goodtimes

04-22-2013, 01:30 PM

Captain, I know you said earlier you were heavy. How heavy are you? I carry my P30 AIWB in a JM holster and I'm trying to get my dad to try it out with his but he's got a bit of a spare tire at six foot four and about 250 lbs.

JohnK

04-22-2013, 02:02 PM

I used to be a big time weightlifter and I am still pretty active and exercise regularly. I say that because my weight might be abit shocking... But, I carry a P30 V3 AIWB in an in-victus and I am 290, 5'11 and I have no problems. My build is dramatically different than someone that doesn't exercise. I do have a little tire, but it doesn't interfere with carrying or feel uncomfortable at all.

Captain

04-22-2013, 02:16 PM

It's been many a moon since I worked out enough, but I do have more of an athletic build - big broad shoulders and a spare tire that has caught up with them. I'm 6' and 270 lbs.

I actually sent Tony an email yesterday about my order and had to make sure he knew how excellent I have found his AIWB holster. I always assumed I wouldn't be able to carry that way until I lost weight. I was pleasantly surprised to find out I could start carrying that way now and would in fact be more comfortable than I am in a more traditional strong side carry setup.