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ToddG
03-09-2013, 02:24 PM
(from another thread...)


A lot of times I take off my gun and holster if I'm gonna be home for the day and throw it back on if I'm running out for something.


You're lucky. I don't live in a place where criminals never enter the home. (cough, cough)


Point well taken and I've thought about it on multiple occasions. It would be far faster to draw from concealment than to make a mad dash for my gun, I'm not quite up to Usain Bolt speed.

Even if I thought the gun was accessible quickly enough where I'm sitting right now to type this, what happens when I get up to use the bathroom? What if I go upstairs to get some water? Odds are I'm not going to carry the gun with me... now I've occupied a hand I might need for whatever else I'm doing.

If I leave the gun behind and that's the unlucky moment someone breaks in, now there's a gun lying in plain view for him to use in his nefariousness.

Assuming a holster comfortable enough to let me drive for hours at a time or sit at a restaurant with friends for hours, it should let me lounge around the house without too much trouble.

It also means less administrative handling of the gun which means less chance to make a mistake of some kind.

Shellback
03-09-2013, 02:59 PM
Even if I thought the gun was accessible quickly enough where I'm sitting right now to type this, what happens when I get up to use the bathroom? What if I go upstairs to get some water? Odds are I'm not going to carry the gun with me... now I've occupied a hand I might need for whatever else I'm doing.

If I leave the gun behind and that's the unlucky moment someone breaks in, now there's a gun lying in plain view for him to use in his nefariousness.

Assuming a holster comfortable enough to let me drive for hours at a time or sit at a restaurant with friends for hours, it should let me lounge around the house without too much trouble.

It also means less administrative handling of the gun which means less chance to make a mistake of some kind.

All good points. However, in the scenario you're describing you need to be wearing proper pants with a belt. I tend to be very casual around the house and if I'm going to be home all day I usually revert back to my breakdancing days, a la Run DMC, and sport my Adidas track pants. Comfy for lounging and great for rolling around wrestling with the little guy who's almost 2 1/2 and an aspiring dinosaur ninja.

If a home invasion scenario were to unfold in this situation it'd be a mad dash to my gun, kept well out of reach of little guy, that's readily accessible to me and the wife. I'll also admit to making the assumption that our Belgian Mal would be engaging said bad dude while I'm accessing my gun. He's the typical protective, fearless Mal who's also been security trained and I've done quite a bit of bite work with him.

Is it the perfect solution? Absolutely not and I realize that there's plenty of room for error in my "plan" but I'd like to hear what other people's solutions are.

Erik
03-09-2013, 03:06 PM
Is it the perfect solution? Absolutely not and I realize that there's plenty of room for error in my "plan" but I'd like to hear what other people's solutions are.

Like you, much of the time I'm lounging around the house, I'm in my lounge wear (sweatpants or shorts). My usual solution is to keep the gun in the holster that's mounted in the bedside table drawer, so very much like yours. The better solution, which I sometimes adopt, is a smartcarry holster. It's what I do, for example, if I know I am going to answer the door for something like a pizza delivery. It works great under sweatpants and shorts. There's no excuse for my not doing that all of the time, really. The only time not to do so would be if I was going to have a drink while lounging.

Dave J
03-09-2013, 03:51 PM
How about perimeter hardening?

IIRC, Tom Givens mentioned having installed metal doors on his house that would not be easily kicked in as one method for gaining time to access a firearm. No doubt he's given similar consideration to his windows. That, plus a good dog and an alarm system, and I think the odds of an intruder making it in before you had time to open a well-placed security container are pretty slim.

That said, if nothing prevents you from carrying around the house, then why not do that too?

David Armstrong
03-09-2013, 04:13 PM
I carry around the house, but some would argue it is not a real gun.:rolleyes: My Beretta Mdl 21 in .22 LR rests comfortably in my sweats pocket.

TCinVA
03-09-2013, 04:21 PM
If I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a pistol.

If I'm lounging in my canary yellow Speedo, the gun is within wingspan.

ToddG
03-09-2013, 04:28 PM
Interesting tangent.

First, let me be clear that I'm not calling anyone out or saying anyone's choice is wrong. We all make decisions based on countless complex factors that cannot be summed neatly in a two paragraph internet forum post.

Having said that, the comments about clothing choices at home surprise me. Conventional wisdom here at PF, I think, is that if someone claims "I cannot carry anything bigger than a toenail clipper because of my clothes," the answer is to find better clothes. Dressing around the gun instead of finding a gun to fit your favorite piece of wardrobe...

So again it comes back to priorities. If you're comfortable out and about wearing jeans or (belt-able) shorts, why not wear them around the house? Especially if it means you can then actually be armed as opposed to being in the vicinity of a gun?

Tamara
03-09-2013, 04:38 PM
Because I am lazy and forgetful, I put my pistol on in the morning when I put on my jeans and I remove it at night when I get ready for bed.

It's not so much that I'm worried about ninjas rappelling through the window during the day, but rather that the alternative requires too much decision-making and remembering and coonfingering of loaded guns for my comfort level...

Shellback
03-09-2013, 04:41 PM
I carry around the house, but some would argue it is not a real gun.:rolleyes: My Beretta Mdl 21 in .22 LR rests comfortably in my sweats pocket.

Claude Werner rocks one on a daily basis. Granted he does a lot of training with that pistol and his method of carry but he's comfortable with the terminal results.

jon volk
03-09-2013, 04:42 PM
Good thread. I never wear sweat pants around the house so I always have something on with a belt. That means my g17 is always stuffed down my pants. The wife used to sarcastically ask "really?" when we'd just be lounging around on the couch till I asked what would happen if someone kicked the back door in RIGHT NOW. If I'm going to go through the trouble of carrying a gun some of the time, may as well do it all the time.

Shellback
03-09-2013, 04:44 PM
If I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a pistol.

If I'm lounging in my canary yellow Speedo, the gun is within wingspan.

Warning: Do not Google images of yellow Speedo to post funny picture...

Tamara
03-09-2013, 04:46 PM
IIRC, Tom Givens mentioned having installed metal doors on his house that would not be easily kicked in as one method for gaining time to access a firearm.

Interestingly, the previous owner of my Roomie's house was an Indy cop, and it has steel doors, serious deadbolts, and outward-opening deadbolted security doors outside those. A SWAT raid would likely have to begin by hooking chains to the security door and the bumper of the raid van. In most scenarios that don't begin with me answering the door, I will have time to go get the long gun. I carry the pistol all the time just for convenience's sake more than anything else.

orionz06
03-09-2013, 05:42 PM
If I'm wearing pants I'm wearing a gun. If I'm wearing sweatpants I will toss on a soft belt and still carry the G17. I have a Smart Carry for the Shield that gets used when I am really lazy but the G17 just works. On the off chance there is not a gun on me it is beside me. I am almost always concealed at home but I do take the top shirt off and will have just the UA undershirt sometimes. Always keep a cover shirt nearby and never poke out with the gun visible.

Tamara
03-09-2013, 05:56 PM
I am almost always concealed at home but I do take the top shirt off and will have just the UA undershirt sometimes. Always keep a cover shirt nearby and never poke out with the gun visible.

In summer I don't really bother with a gun burkha around the house or yard.

Odin Bravo One
03-09-2013, 06:04 PM
I lounge around the house in my street clothes. As TLG mentioned, if it is comfortable enough for me to wear out, it is comfortable enough for me to wear in too. The moment I walk through the door, I open the safe, put on holster/gun/mag/light. When I dress down to retire for the evening, the holster/pouches/belt get put away, and the pistol finds it's place on the nightstand. Last thing I do before I leave the house in the AM is lock the pistol away. Weekends/holidays/non-work days, I transfer the pistol from nightstand to holster the moment I am up and moving about.

I didn't bother to "harden" my entry points, so I keep the pistol within arms reach at all times. This is not my forever home, and while "hardened" entry points may appeal to some, it can also freak out potential buyers, and keep them from making an offer, citing security concerns in the neighborhood. Once that type of set up has been seen, it can't be un-seen, and no amount of explaining will change most people's minds. I watched just such a transaction not play out due to the security system and features we installed at a friends house. It took months to get the house sold, at the peak of the market, and ultimately, he had to dismantle a good deal of the features installed, essentially wasting that money.......or rather not getting any return on his investment.

And having countless times on the other side of the door, with my primary job being to get them open quickly, I don't put a lot of faith in deadbolts, metal doors, and other "hardening" techniques. In order to actually make the target door difficult to breach, it would take more hardware, money, design and architectual changes than I am willing to invest. T-Bars, grates, outward opening doors, don't make sense to me. I don't want to build a fortress that does a better job of keeping me in than it does of keeping a determined adversary out. Sure, it may buy me a few extra seconds to run and get my gun, but I prefer just grabbing it from the holster or nightstand, and leave the house/doors/windows the way they are. With a pistol in hand, or on the belt/nightstand and a spare mag, I can hold my own in just about any room in my house.

One nice thing a slowed entry might provide would be the time to make the 9-1-1 call before the onset of festivities. Other than that........I like my method, it works for me, and I feel secure enough in my home.

JAD
03-09-2013, 06:23 PM
How about perimeter hardening?

Occasionally interferes with AIWB. Less of a problem as I get older.

I match up with Tam pretty well, except I don't fight the NPE at work so I ungun a couple times a day. The safest way for me to store my firearm around Griffin Coonfinger is on my belt.

Tamara
03-09-2013, 06:44 PM
I didn't bother to "harden" my entry points, so I keep the pistol within arms reach at all times. This is not my forever home, and while "hardened" entry points may appeal to some, it can also freak out potential buyers, and keep them from making an offer, citing security concerns in the neighborhood. Once that type of set up has been seen, it can't be un-seen, and no amount of explaining will change most people's minds. I watched just such a transaction not play out due to the security system and features we installed at a friends house. It took months to get the house sold, at the peak of the market, and ultimately, he had to dismantle a good deal of the features installed, essentially wasting that money.......or rather not getting any return on his investment.

And having countless times on the other side of the door, with my primary job being to get them open quickly, I don't put a lot of faith in deadbolts, metal doors, and other "hardening" techniques. In order to actually make the target door difficult to breach, it would take more hardware, money, design and architectual changes than I am willing to invest. T-Bars, grates, outward opening doors, don't make sense to me. I don't want to build a fortress that does a better job of keeping me in than it does of keeping a determined adversary out. Sure, it may buy me a few extra seconds to run and get my gun, but I prefer just grabbing it from the holster or nightstand, and leave the house/doors/windows the way they are. With a pistol in hand, or on the belt/nightstand and a spare mag, I can hold my own in just about any room in my house.

True, but there are different situations for different folks. Rawlesian door treatments that would look paranoid on a suburban McMansion don't look at all out of place in a Bo-Bo neighborhood twenty blocks from the 'hood.

I like that the former owner had obviously been to both enough warrant services and residential fires to know the difference between something that may slow down some dude he'd locked up from kicking in the front door, and something that may tie him up getting out of a burning bedroom.

(Personally, one of the key elements of my security plan is staying friendly with all my nosy neighbors, half of whom work from home. Gladys Kravitz with an itchy 911 finger beats ADT any day of the week and twice on Sunday.)

John Ralston
03-09-2013, 07:20 PM
If I'm lounging in my canary yellow Speedo, the gun is within wingspan.

I would think if you were in a Speedo that you would WANT to have the Desert Eagle AIWB...you know, just for the WOW factor.

JodyH
03-09-2013, 07:24 PM
When I leave the house I have a gun.
Inside the house i'm probably 50/50.
There's always something dangerous (shoot, stab, blunt force) within arms reach no matter where I am in the house so no worries if i'm not strapped.
Besides, nobody wants to wrestle a naked man.

Odin Bravo One
03-09-2013, 07:41 PM
Gladys Kravitz with an itchy 911 finger beats ADT any day of the week and twice on Sunday.)

Indeed............

And yes, different needs for different folks......always. I also have to factor in that most scumbags who would conduct a home invasion type crime are probably not as well versed in MOE as I am, and most folks who choose to harden their homes can do so relatively effectively against Joe-Shit the Ragman.

And while we are on the topic of when to carry, and hardened targets, security systems, etc..........I had ADT/Brinks install a pretty robust sensor array several years ago when I first moved into the house where I still live. Every window has not only the open/close sensor, but also break sensors. Same with each external door, as well as the door that leads in from the garage since I don't have a sensor on the garage car doors. Second story window to the master bedroom has the same, as it is possible for someone to climb onto the roof of the breakfast nook and make entry from there into the bedroom. There are multiple motion sensors throughout the downstairs, at the entry points, with overlapping coverage. And of course, CO and smoke detectors.

About a year later, in the wee hours of the AM, my ex was woken up to the sound of the audible alarm going nuts. And the dog going nuts. She did as she was trained, and grabbed the gun, the phone handset, and got some concealment behind the bed facing the locked bedroom door. Brinks/ADT was quick to call and verify that it was not an accidental trip of the alarm. When she said she had been asleep, they dialed the local PD to get them on their way. The system reported the dining room window had been breached. Of course, having the dog, alarm, and everything else going batshit just added to the confusion, stress, and fear of this tense situation.

Now, this was a Tuesday night/Wed early AM, on a fairly crappy weather day. FORTYFIVE MINUTES.

Yuuuuuup.

FORTYFIVE MINUTES for the local PD to get a single officer to the residence. He waited an additional 15 minutes for another officer to show up so they could begin their search of the residence. I mean, it was only a residence. With a person inside on the phone with Brinks/ADT and local PD in a conference call.......completely freaked out, totally terrified, and the response was 45 minutes.

Un fucking SAT.

I should add that I live less than 1 mile from the precinct that services my neighborhood.

Perfect time to have a neighbor like Gladys Kravitz................my western neighbors just moved. Think Gladys would consider VA?

I dropped ADT/Brinks the day I got home, and have never bothered with a security system since. Sure, the sensors were there, the installation sound, overlapping sensors with plenty of redundancy and backups. But there was nothing to get the fucking cops to leave the donut shop and show up to a residential alarm call where the system showed a broken dining room window, at 0130 in the middle of the week, with the woman, alone inside, on the phone being told they will be there any minute. For 45 minutes. (FWIW, the culprit appeared to have been scared off by the audible alarm, and flashing lights downstairs. They got a latent print, but I never heard anything further about it).

It is interesting how we evolve our methods over the years though. I used to simply leave guns all over the house. During the single years, I always lived with co-workers, so having 10-15 guns strategically placed throughout the house seemed perfectly normal. During the divorced years, I initially reverted back to the guns stashed until I had a gun stolen out of my house during a burglary of my garage (where there was never an alarm until you tried to make entry into the house so keeping Brinks would not have helped). Fortunately, it was only one. But I elected not to set myself up for that again.

Since I am going to open the safe anyway when I get home from work, it makes sense for me to just add my primary defensive response to the wardrobe. Hard doors, nosey neighbors, and security systems all have me relying on a third party, or passive objects. By carrying inside the home, I have only to rely on myself, and the gun I chose to carry. Either way, the success or failure is on me alone.



Jody, I used to have shirt very similar to that last statement.........

"Unless you are in prison...........NEVER fight nekkid"

TCinVA
03-09-2013, 08:07 PM
Yeah...alarms don't get much priority, usually.

There's also the factor of coverage. At one time in my county during the night shift there were five deputies on the road. Five. With a patrol area that was 40 miles at its widest point. I believe they've bumped that up a bit since then, but it's still a pretty small crew responsible for a lot of real estate. In some surrounding rural areas they have a really small crew and that coupled with poor supervision and leadership means that of the few who are on the road a couple were probably parked at their girlfriend's house doing the horizontal monster mash instead of being on patrol. Toss in the huge number of false alarms and response time prognosis is pretty grim. If it's real, they'll show up to take the report or to find your dead body. That's about it.


I would think if you were in a Speedo that you would WANT to have the Desert Eagle AIWB...you know, just for the WOW factor.

I find that the heavy coating of baby oil takes care of the wow factor pretty well. At least as far as I can tell from the reaction I've gotten from Kirby salesmen and guys trying to sell me meat from the back of their van.

Seriously, though, at the moment within my reach there is a Remington 870 with an extended magazine, an H&K P30, and a Glock 17 equipped with a CT Laser, a Surefire X200B, and fed Federal HST from a 31 round magazine. Unless the person(s) busting down my door used to hang with Sean, I'm feeling pretty good about my chances.

Shellback
03-09-2013, 08:34 PM
The only other downside I have to carrying in the house is the little guy, who considers me his personal punching bag, taking too many slide shots to the dome. It's happened on a few occasions where he'll jump on top of me, get a "bonk", and then has to see what's crackalackin' down south. At 2 1/2 he's fascinated by guns already and everything he picks up goes "Pew! Pew!" and when we're knocking over furniture and he knows I'm carrying he fixates on the gun and wants to, no has to, see it. He's only a little guy and just doesn't quite understand no and everything else that goes along with don't touch that, leave it alone, etc.

When he gets a little older and is out of the flying off of the back of the couch ninja attack mode I think it may be a lot more feasible. Currently life for me is a lot like this.

http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Calvin_and_Hobbes_1280_Wall_by_LamboMan7.jpg

BoppaBear
03-09-2013, 09:02 PM
I've always been one to carry at home in the same manner as I do when out. I have a comfy old pair of shorts with a back-up riggers belt threaded through them and throw them on when it's time to lounge. I carry AIWB when at home, just as I carry everywhere else. If I'm not carrying on me at home, my gun/reload is within reach.

The pistol/reload on me is my first line of defense if something happens while my wife, 2 wk old son, and I are hanging in the living areas of our house. It's job is to address the initial threat and allow my family to get to the safety of our bedroom. If I can end it in the initial exchange, that's great, if not, the pistol on me is to get me to my "Alamo" where my wife will be waiting, along with my kitted out BPM AR, Benelli, additional handguns (my other HK carry gun, and my P220 w/TLR-1 "nightstand" gun), topped off mags, etc. That's a good place to stand my ground while my wife is with our son on the phone in our master bathroom (door locked; minor obstacle for a BG, I know), hopefully getting the Sheriff coming in our direction. In that case, I'll just wait for help to arrive. If someone decides kicking in my masonite bedroom door is a good idea, then they will be met with a significant amount of firepower.

I'm also about to pick up additional ear pro for she and myself, and a pair of complete sound dampening ear pro for the little guy (won't fit, but something is better than nothing). I have good ear pro in my range bag, but I want her to have a similar pair that dampens gunshots while allowing normal, but amplified, sounds through for communication purposes.

At this point in parenthood, our little guy is still sleeping in a crib in our bedroom for feeding convenience, but his "big boy" room is upstairs when we make that transition in a couple months. When this happens, the idea of me staying in my "Alamo" is going to change. While I don't plan to come busting out gun slinging, just to meet the business end of a sawed off shotgun, I will absolutely have to clear my house and make my way to secure him. In that case, I still think it best of my wife to stay in our bedroom, door locked, armed, and on the phone. I will send my 85lb Great American Swamp Terrior out into the house, and I will follow behind toward my son's room. I figure a good-sized, dark dog, in a dark house, may also make someone potentially give their position away as I make my way to get my son. In that case, I can address that threat if necessary.

Any thoughts on the last paragraph of my plan? I would appreciate feedback.

Tamara
03-09-2013, 09:12 PM
Incidentally, the section on this topic on Kathy's site (http://www.corneredcat.com/article/social-considerations/would-you-carry-a-gun/) is just smokin' well-thought-out.

Odin Bravo One
03-09-2013, 09:36 PM
Thanks Tam.........great link. And very appropriate. Much more on topic than my Billy Madison-esque no where in my incoherent ramblings did I come close to anything that could be construed as a rational thought.

Wendell
03-09-2013, 09:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PgmiGN2mi2M#t=8s

Pennzoil
03-10-2013, 08:54 AM
I carry at home like others and if I don't have the gun on me it's in the safe. I have two small children and they are so used to papa carrying a gun they don't even pay attention to it. To them its like me wearing pants or shoes.

My main reason I carry @ the house is that with two small children I'm committed to the fight should something go wrong and couldn't leave/take the kids to acquire a firearm. We have had two people shot within less than 20 yards of my house. The last one was a lady getting shot with a 12 gauge. So we are on high alert here with GSD and security doors.

EMC
03-10-2013, 09:40 AM
I carry at home like others and if I don't have the gun on me it's in the safe. I have two small children and they are so used to papa carrying a gun they don't even pay attention to it. To them its like me wearing pants or shoes.

My main reason I carry @ the house is that with two small children I'm committed to the fight should something go wrong and couldn't leave/take the kids to acquire a firearm. We have had two people shot within less than 20 yards of my house. The last one was a lady getting shot with a 12 gauge. So we are on high alert here with GSD and security doors.

Man, posts like these always make me grateful for my super boring neighborhood. Good point on having to leave kids while retrieving a firearm.

ares338
03-10-2013, 10:01 AM
Ever since I obtained my CHL I have carried where and whenever legal. Yes even around the house and to the bathroom. I have been the butt of several sarcastic remarks on this habit but I am not deterred in the least. I live in the outskirts of the city and I am served by the Seriffs Department which typically means longer response times. Last week there was a home invasion 10 minutes from our house so I have been wearing a smug little smile all week :rolleyes:. I am 64 and disabled so I am not going to go all UFC on some 24 YO muscle bound ex con....so I will continue to carry everywhere legal.

Jay Cunningham
03-10-2013, 10:15 AM
You guys are doing it all wrong. Instead of sleeping I sit in a chair at night wearing sunglasses like Jean Reno in The Professional. That way no one will get the drop on me. Anything less and you're not serious about your safety.

ToddG
03-10-2013, 10:17 AM
Man, posts like these always make me grateful for my super boring neighborhood.

All neighborhoods are boring until the first catastrophe. You don't want to be the catastrophe.

I live in a very nice, quiet neighborhood. In almost fifteen years, the only real crime we've seen has been property based, mostly cars being broken into at night every five or six years.

Except a few years back when someone was carjacked 25 yards from my front door.

Last year, someone in the next neighborhood over was murdered in her home.

I have a business mailbox at a Mailbox Etc kind of shop in a very upscale planned community nearby. The proprietors know what I do and are very good about access control to any packages that arrive for me, accepting 10-20 cases of ammo at a time, etc. They also used to tease me about being so silly about guns and self-defense. Then about two years ago, the bank next door got robbed three times in two months and a well known resident in the neighborhood was shot and killed on the sidewalk in broad daylight. I may have uttered a "toldyaso" or two...

BobM
03-10-2013, 10:32 AM
You can live in the best of neighborhoods but sometimes the"bad part of town" comes to you.

JV_
03-10-2013, 10:49 AM
You can live in the best of neighborhoods but sometimes the"bad part of town" comes to you.

Yep, that just happened to my neighborhood.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

Skullybones
03-10-2013, 11:04 AM
How do you guys and gals approach bathing? We have no interior door locks, so even nearby access might not be enough.

JodyH
03-10-2013, 11:07 AM
How do you guys and gals approach bathing? We have no interior door locks, so even nearby access might not be enough.
Ummm... well... yeah... I got nuthin to say that stays within forum guidelines.
:p

BoppaBear
03-10-2013, 11:18 AM
You can live in the best of neighborhoods but sometimes the"bad part of town" comes to you.


Ditto. I live in a nice bedroom community, and don't have much more than the regular amount of property crimes (mostly cars in driveways, but some homes), and the simple assaults/drug-related/DUI stuff found just about everywhere. There's the fair share of lifetime residents out here, with long family ties, and there are the people who have moved here within the last 10 years to get a more country-like feel. Some of the life-time residents (rural farmers, etc., and 99.9% are good people, but the .1% are drug addicts, drunks, and backwoods meth cookers) don't like the development that has come to this city that had a population of just over 6,000 in 2011.

The problem is that thieves/bad guys know that these communities tend to have things they are interested in, and for whatever reason seem to think it's going to be easy "knocking over" houses. I don't doubt that they would prefer the residents not be present, but I don't count on it.

We are in the county, so the Sheriff's Dept is our law enforcement. They are good, but even at 100 mph, can be 10 mins away depending on where they are. I happen to be smack dab in the middle of 3 cities that range from 150,000 people to 300,000 people, and growing. These cities are not the largest in the country, but they are also not divoid of gangs, crime, etc. I have friends on the local PD and FBI Gang Task Forces, and a very close friend that is a US Marshal out of the Atlanta area (who happens to track fugitives up I-85/I-40 to my city often).

My thought process at home is the exact same as when I'm out. I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. It's that simple for me, and when I decided to carry a gun, I made the decision to dive in head first. I carry absolutely everywhere I am legally allowed, all the time. There are no exceptions.

CCT125US
03-10-2013, 11:20 AM
How do you guys and gals approach bathing? We have no interior door locks, so even nearby access might not be enough.

What do you think they make paracord and gallon ziplock bags for ;)

As far as carry, with young kids in the house, it takes some education and trial and error. Just today my almost 5yr old learned not to headbutt my belly. The Heinies are sharp.... He is a kung fu panda dinosaur FYI

Just the other day my neighbor arrived home early to find two dudes attempting to break into his home. We live in a very rural area and the Sheriff patrols 450 square miles. He was glad to have his .45

LOKNLOD
03-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Ummm... well... yeah... I got nuthin to say that stays within forum guidelines.
:p


The SE Oklahoma way (http://kfor.com/2013/03/05/graphic-woman-packing-heat-drugs-in-private-parts/)

You're gonna want something with a good carry melt and corrosion resistant finish...

TGS
03-10-2013, 01:47 PM
If I'm wearing cargo pants or jeans, I'm carrying. With that said, I do not find wearing cargo pants/jeans anywhere near as comfortable as my plaid lounging pants and yeti-clawed fuzzy slippers. If I'm wearing such, I might throw my 380 in my pocket, or I might not. A lot of you who know me probably think that's crazy, given my house has 6 patched bullet holes, cops beating people up and conducting stings in front of my house, 2 attempted burglaries in the last year, state police choppers searching the streets and backyards with spotlights, and to top it off we had a car explode on the street last week. When Trenton hands you an exploding car with brilliant flames shooting 20 feet into the air, Trentonians grab some marshmellows and make the best of the situation.

tl;dr version of the following: dog.

longer version:

It's a near sadistic pleasure of mine to see how utterly f'd people feel when they're standing on my porch looking at my rottweiler. I was prompted to respond to this thread as I just witnessed it a few minutes ago for the millionth time. He has deterred several people who I was most assured were scoping out houses in disguise as vendors/solicitors. He's also the reason that our attempted burglaries were only attempted, and not an actual burglary. Finally, I've been in a fight with him and know what he's capable of. Is he the end all, be all? No. Is he a fighting dog? No. Is he a trained shutzhund? No. But damn, if he isn't effective.

At this moment I'm wearing cargo pants, and thus wearing my P2000. When I lived in Virginia, I carried every day. When I travel 1 mile west and cross into PA, I carry. I think it's prudent to add that tool and give myself the option. However, unless the Indonesian team of ninja-criminals from The Raid: Redemption come busting through my windows, I'm pretty sure that Argus would give me the time to retrieve my pistol, AR15 or shotgun. If I didn't have a dog, I would 100% be carrying every waking moment inside my house....with the exception of when I'm showering.

Shellback
03-10-2013, 01:56 PM
Ya never know... :)

http://www.operatorchan.org/s/src/13504162162.jpg

http://www.mileanhour.com/files/2010/12/showerglock.jpg

Jay Cunningham
03-10-2013, 02:10 PM
Ya never know... :)

http://www.operatorchan.org/s/src/13504162162.jpg

http://www.mileanhour.com/files/2010/12/showerglock.jpg

Finally someone with some sense.

David Armstrong
03-10-2013, 02:34 PM
Interesting tangent.

First, let me be clear that I'm not calling anyone out or saying anyone's choice is wrong. We all make decisions based on countless complex factors that cannot be summed neatly in a two paragraph internet forum post.

Having said that, the comments about clothing choices at home surprise me. Conventional wisdom here at PF, I think, is that if someone claims "I cannot carry anything bigger than a toenail clipper because of my clothes," the answer is to find better clothes. Dressing around the gun instead of finding a gun to fit your favorite piece of wardrobe...

So again it comes back to priorities. If you're comfortable out and about wearing jeans or (belt-able) shorts, why not wear them around the house? Especially if it means you can then actually be armed as opposed to being in the vicinity of a gun?
Because when I get home I want to be MORE comfortable than when I am out and about. I want to get out of the jeans, or the chinos, or the slacks and move into sweats, PJs, nightshirts, or maybe a kilt:eek:. As always, it becomes a matter of compromise. I'm fairly secure in my home so I am quite comfortable moving down the scale in bit in my alertness and preparedness.

David Armstrong
03-10-2013, 02:44 PM
Claude Werner rocks one on a daily basis. Granted he does a lot of training with that pistol and his method of carry but he's comfortable with the terminal results.
Me too. The Mdl 21 is quite sufficient for most of my needs. I'll certainly move up the scale a bit in firepawer if appropriate, but I don't feel particularly undergunned with the little gun for many situations.

jon volk
03-10-2013, 04:59 PM
Ya never know... :)

http://www.operatorchan.org/s/src/13504162162.jpg

http://www.mileanhour.com/files/2010/12/showerglock.jpg

Hey, my g17 sits on top of the toilet when Im showering. Can't hear shit while the shower is going. Then again, this did lead to dropping a mag into the toilet once......

Tamara
03-10-2013, 05:24 PM
Remember: "He's naive, I'm prepared, and you're paranoid." ;)

orionz06
03-10-2013, 05:36 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_4313_zpsfef22447.jpg

Clyde from Carolina
03-10-2013, 05:41 PM
Interesting thread.

Let's just say I am more on the 'Irish' side of preparedness. :-)

Back in the late 90s when I was a young, single cop, I had the reputation of being a bit of a Tackleberry, gun-wise at least, among my gun-wise cop buddies. Hey, I lived in the government housing project for peanuts thanks to the housing program's desire to have LEOs living there.

Needless to say, if you are THAT guy (Tackleberry) in a small but busy Southern police department (full of gun cranks) in that time and place, you tend to have a Glock stashed in the bathroom and anywhere else you can think of...b/c like Irish said, ya just never know!

Pennzoil
03-10-2013, 09:02 PM
Man, posts like these always make me grateful for my super boring neighborhood.

I live in what on paper should be the most boring neighborhood of my life. Smaller suburban town in a "nice" golf course community that occasionally has sports celebrities stop by to play a few holes.

Your views change when your standing 10ft out from the front door of your house with a bottle of bleach and a hose washing off something that resembles a scene from Dexter after the crime lab people leave.

Chuck Haggard
03-11-2013, 12:47 AM
There are ways to reinforce a door really well so that it looks rather normal to the untrained eye, fairly easy and kind of cheap to do.

I've breeched a few doors, mine would take several ram hits to break in, a crack head would bounce off for hours.


I tend to be armed at all times that I am awake. If not then gun/s are close by.


I never leave guns unsecured, even before I had kids and after they were grown, The biggest source of guns on the street are people who don't lock their stuff up and let burglars walk away with their guns.

LittleLebowski
03-11-2013, 06:44 AM
I am usually armed at home; the Malinois patrolling my acre lawn outside during the day is always armed. He is also always armed at night while sleeping at the foot of the bed. I'm confident he could buy me enough time to get to a weapon.

FotoTomas
03-11-2013, 10:25 AM
I too fall into the "carry at home" crowd. Nine times out of ten it is the Kahr PM9 in the pocket since the belt gun often gets put on the night stand with an attached M3X light. My wife keeps her pistol in a closet with a spare magazine and a can of pepper spray. The youngest son keeps his 20 gauge 870 in his closet. Between the three of us and two small loud dogs we feel pretty comfortable.

MDS
03-11-2013, 10:29 AM
I only carry when my pants are on, and only if it's legal to do so. This second thing is a giant PITA - I spend much more time learning the ins and outs of local, state and federal CCW law than I do, for example, perfecting my carry setup...

Chuck Haggard
03-11-2013, 01:29 PM
When our last case is disposed of, hopfully soon, remind me to tell ya'll about the crew we had working us over last year with armed robberies and home invasions.

Think about what you carry, then think about up to nine bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.

TR675
03-11-2013, 02:30 PM
Wardrobe and work environment prevent any all-day, every-day on-body carry method that I find appealing, and I really don't want to carry at home. The neighborhood is decent, and my home layout is fairly secure. I live in a three story townhouse sandwiched inbetween two other units. For all intents and purposes, unless I'm being attacked by ninjas someone is coming in the front door or downstairs front window.

Assuming the alarm doesn't run them off and they make it past the guard cats without being tripped by the underfoot SOB's and knocking themselves out cold, in addition to breaking the door or window any bad guy has to come up at least one flight of stairs to get to the main living area. By which point I've assed it up the stairs to the third floor and easily accessed bedside table gun. Cue retreat through the bathroom and into the closet while waiting for la policia.

While not perfect (or- I assume - even adequate for some on this board) this strikes me as a reasonable plan under my particular circumstances for my particular level of lazy.

Shellback
03-11-2013, 02:39 PM
When out last case is disposed of, hopfully soon, remind me to tell ya'll about the crew we had working us over last year with armed robberies and home invasions.

Think about what you carry, then think about up to nine bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.

Definitely interested in hearing about the details when the dust settles.

JHC
03-11-2013, 03:08 PM
Occasionally interferes with AIWB. Less of a problem as I get older.

.

ROFL!!!! For the win!

JHC
03-11-2013, 03:13 PM
Interesting tangent.

Dressing around the gun instead of finding a gun to fit your favorite piece of wardrobe...

If you're comfortable out and about wearing jeans or (belt-able) shorts, why not wear them around the house? Especially if it means you can then actually be armed as opposed to being in the vicinity of a gun?

+1 Same attire as out and about down to the hiking boots. I am not comfortable lounging in lounge wear. Or barefoot. Or flip flops. Street and home carry same thing. When peeled down and oiled up (TC style) swinging a pick or pushing a shovel on the projects, the Glock is in a fanny pack nearby.

jetfire
03-11-2013, 03:19 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

orionz06
03-11-2013, 03:24 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

I do not violate any state laws with regard to carry.

JodyH
03-11-2013, 03:43 PM
When our last case is disposed of, hopfully soon, remind me to tell ya'll about the crew we had working us over last year with armed robberies and home invasions.

Think about what you carry, then think about up to nine bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.
Hate to bust bubbles, but against 9 bad guys with long guns... an extra 6 or 8 handgun rounds isn't going to make a bit of difference in the outcome.
If the crew is committed enough to fight past the first 5 rounds, you're living on a wing and a prayer from that point on and luck will play a bigger part in the outcome than handgun capacity.

Tamara
03-11-2013, 04:09 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

If I have a beer or two with/after dinner, I certainly don't pull the gun out and start coonfingering it; it's safest in the holster with nobody messing with it.

On those occasions when I have been with friends in deer camp or at a get-together or something where actual, deliberate drinking will be involved, I generally prefer to stow and secure my heater before the drinking lamp is lit.

Sparks2112
03-11-2013, 04:43 PM
How do you guys and gals approach bathing? We have no interior door locks, so even nearby access might not be enough.

I hate to sound nuts, but I keep whatever pistol I'm packing on the ledge of my bathtub when I'm showering. Whipe it dry and hit it with the silicon cloth. I am fully aware this is probably overkill, but I figure the only time I'll need a pistol as a civi is when I don't have it. By always having it I'll never need it. At least that's my hope.

David Armstrong
03-11-2013, 04:56 PM
When our last case is disposed of, hopfully soon, remind me to tell ya'll about the crew we had working us over last year with armed robberies and home invasions.

Think about what you carry, then think about up to nine bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.
I'm not sure what you carry would be that much of a factor if confronted by 9 bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.

David Armstrong
03-11-2013, 04:58 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?
I do not drink when carrying a firearm.

Sparks2112
03-11-2013, 05:02 PM
Hate to bust bubbles, but against 9 bad guys with long guns... an extra 6 or 8 handgun rounds isn't going to make a bit of difference in the outcome.
If the crew is committed enough to fight past the first 5 rounds, you're living on a wing and a prayer from that point on and luck will play a bigger part in the outcome than handgun capacity.

Can we agree that the extra rounds won't hurt the situation?

SouthNarc
03-11-2013, 05:22 PM
..coonfingering



Damn I haven't even heard that one.

NETim
03-11-2013, 05:30 PM
I generally prefer to stow and secure my heater before the drinking lamp is lit.

This must be a British Navy thing. No "drinking lamps" in the USN by God.

TR675
03-11-2013, 05:33 PM
Damn I haven't even heard that one.

First time I heard someone say this it was a good ol' boy Texas deputy sheriff. I thought "dude, you can't just say stuff like that these days."

I must have had some kind of silly look on my face because he spent the next 5 minutes convincing me he meant raccoons.

I looked it up later and it turns out he was right, but for a minute there...it was pretty funny.

What the hell would I know about 'coons, I grew up in the 'burbs.

Super J
03-11-2013, 06:01 PM
I too like the idea of being comfortable around the house and don't want to rig up my ares ranger belt for my "down time" at home. What I've done is to commit to wearing pants or shirts that either fit me properly (not falling off) or have a drawstring. Once I have a half snug fit in my sweats, shorts, pajamas etc, I can use one of my remora holsters. The remora resembles a pocket holster with no clip. I simply holster the pistol in the remora and stick it in my waist...and it does not move.

I use a regular conventional holster outside the house and the remora when lounging.

If you have never seen a remora you can find a gazillion vids on YouTube. By the way, they are very affordable...around $30.

Shellback
03-11-2013, 06:09 PM
If I have a beer or two with/after dinner, I certainly don't pull the gun out and start coonfingering it; it's safest in the holster with nobody messing with it.

On those occasions when I have been with friends in deer camp or at a get-together or something where actual, deliberate drinking will be involved, I generally prefer to stow and secure my heater before the drinking lamp is lighted.

Same rules I roll with. Slight correction on the naval terminology. ;)

Tamara
03-11-2013, 06:17 PM
Damn I haven't even heard that one.

All is revealed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hnqsucH-c).

Odin Bravo One
03-11-2013, 09:19 PM
Hate to bust bubbles, but against 9 bad guys with long guns... an extra 6 or 8 handgun rounds isn't going to make a bit of difference in the outcome.
If the crew is committed enough to fight past the first 5 rounds, you're living on a wing and a prayer from that point on and luck will play a bigger part in the outcome than handgun capacity.

Indeed........

There are times, places, and situations where the mindset of playing to win must dominate every aspect of the altercation.

Playing NOT to lose is an certainly option here..........but not a very smart one.

ToddG
03-11-2013, 10:00 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home?

Not I. I pretty much stopped drinking when I got my first CCW permit. There are a few instances when I'll still have a beer -- like at an airport during a layover, when I won't be driving or handling a gun for hours -- but otherwise, almost never.

Jay Cunningham
03-11-2013, 10:57 PM
Damn I haven't even heard that one.

zolzolzolzolzollo

Chuck Haggard
03-12-2013, 01:40 AM
I'm not sure what you carry would be that much of a factor if confronted by 9 bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.

I have to strongly disagree David. Something like a Glock 19 is far better at shooting one's way out of a crappy situation that a snub .38 or a Kel Tec .32 While I agree with much of what Claude has written on realistic gun choices, small caliber pistols and carry in NPEs, I think that one should be forced to carry a pocket pistol, not choose to do so.

DB and I have talked about this at length, he has several examples of coppers taking the fight to the bad guys very aggressively, using a capable pistol, and winning with style.

In a home invasion even the most dedicated bad guys will not be able to fight you more than one or two at a time due to being packed in a hallway, etc. Stacking your targets makes them far easier to shoot in groups.

I would add that Alvin York obviously thought winning such a fight was possible with the right equipment. If he had been packing a P3AT then the story would have ended very differently.

Unfortunately some bad guys have also learned such a lesson from history, resulting in really bad days for LE, such as the dope raid gone really bad in Ogden Utah.

TCinVA
03-12-2013, 06:39 AM
I'm not sure what you carry would be that much of a factor if confronted by 9 bad guys, all armed, some with long guns.

...if they act as a team. As I said in another thread, if the multiple armed bad guys breaking into my house is Sean M and his friends, I can put up a bit of a fuss but the outcome is pretty well decided.

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of baddies don't react as a team to the stimulus of an angry homeowner slinging lead into their faces, and that helps boost the odds a bit. A couple of people in the house who open the taps on a couple of standard capacity 9mm's will probably be a pretty big downer for even 9 guys.

ffhounddog
03-12-2013, 07:10 AM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

I have stopped drinking to excess. I might have a Scotch when I get home but nothing that impairs me.

If I am armed outside the house no booze as per the Law but inside I will have one at a resonable level.

If I have had a bad day the guns go into the safe and the full bottle comes out and I passout sometime along the way. Now I have learned that Ice Cream and a sad movie beat out a bottle of 10 year old scotch when i am feeling bad.

I make sure I do not drink the 18-21 year old scotch on bad days. I drink too much and it eats into my budget.

SouthNarc
03-12-2013, 08:32 AM
All is revealed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0hnqsucH-c).

Oh I understood it, but never thought to apply that to handling guns. Great analogy!

MDS
03-12-2013, 08:38 AM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

I switched to Budweiser. About as inebriating - if much less fun - than the canoe-bound equivalent.

JHC
03-12-2013, 09:55 AM
Self moderator deleted.

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 11:27 AM
I have to strongly disagree David. Something like a Glock 19 is far better at shooting one's way out of a crappy situation that a snub .
Sure, but I don't think that is the issue. Even if you have a Glock 19 tucked away in your cargo shorts, if you are victimized by an organized group of 9 home invaders, all armed, some with long guns, you're pretty well hosed. They are either going to break and run at the first few rounds tossed at them or they are going to follow it through.

While I agree with much of what Claude has written on realistic gun choices, small caliber pistols and carry in NPEs, I think that one should be forced to carry a pocket pistol, not choose to do so.
I think that we all make numerous compromises on what we carry based on our perceived needs, so arguing "my compromise is better than your compromise" is rather silly.


DB and I have talked about this at length, he has several examples of coppers taking the fight to the bad guys very aggressively, using a capable pistol, and winning with style.
OK. Not sure what that has to do with the issue, but OK. I've got several examples of LEOs and non-LEOs taking the fight to the BG with what most here would consider an incapable pistol and winning with style, just as I'm sure we can all come up with examples of folks who were quite well armed losing big-time.


In a home invasion even the most dedicated bad guys will not be able to fight you more than one or two at a time due to being packed in a hallway, etc. Stacking your targets makes them far easier to shoot in groups.
That makes a number of assumptions. Lots of houses if you break in the front door you are immediately in a large, open room. You might not be down a hallway, or able to get to a hallway. And so on. FWIW, there is not a hallway in my entire house. I can work a doorway, but if I can get to where someone needs to go through a door to get to me, again what I carry won't be that big a deal since if I get to a doorway I get to a rifle or shotgun.


I would add that Alvin York obviously thought winning such a fight was possible with the right equipment. If he had been packing a P3AT then the story would have ended very differently.
Again, some interesting assumptions. I'm not aware of Alvin York ever being in a fight that resembled a home invasion, and given his skill I bet if he had been packing a P3AT he would have used very different tactics.


Unfortunately some bad guys have also learned such a lesson from history, resulting in really bad days for LE, such as the dope raid gone really bad in Ogden Utah.
All of which really just seems to be my point. Who are the bad guys, how are they armed, how are they trained, how dedicated are they? How is your house laid out, what type of layered response do you have set up, how good a shot you are, and so on all seem to have more impact on the outcome than whether you are carrying a 6 shot .380, an 8 shot .45, a 12 shot .40 or a 15 shot 9mm. YMMV.

JConn
03-12-2013, 11:59 AM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

I don't drink that much and when I do it's usually one maybe two drinks. My view is, I am in my private residence, door locked and not expecting visitors. I do not become a blithering idiot after two drinks. If someone decides to break into my house and attempts to cause me harm, my level of intoxication should have no bearing on my right to defend myself. It may very well effect my ability to defend myself, but I like scotch and will not swear it off forever on the off chance someone may break into my house. I will not drink if I may be leaving the house, and on the off chance that I decide to cut loose, any firearms are put away. Is it a perfect solution? No, but I'm pretty comfortable with it.

ToddG
03-12-2013, 12:13 PM
Again, some interesting assumptions. I'm not aware of Alvin York ever being in a fight that resembled a home invasion, and given his skill I bet if he had been packing a P3AT he would have used very different tactics.

I'd say that is making some interesting assumptions, primarily the assumption that York could have employed a tactic that would have given him the same degree of success even if he'd been armed with a P3AT. You might as well say, "If York had been naked, handcuffed, and blindfolded he just would have had to use different tactics."


All of which really just seems to be my point. Who are the bad guys, how are they armed, how are they trained, how dedicated are they? How is your house laid out, what type of layered response do you have set up, how good a shot you are, and so on all seem to have more impact on the outcome than whether you are carrying a 6 shot .380, an 8 shot .45, a 12 shot .40 or a 15 shot 9mm. YMMV.

It's one thing to say there are other factors. It is, again, jumping to a heck of a conclusion that you can determine in advance which factors will have the greatest impact on a single incident from among a myriad range of possibilities.

I don't doubt for a second that there are incidents in which the caliber or capacity of a handgun make no difference for the defender, for better or worse.

We couldn't throw a stone around here without hitting a doctor who can tell you of instances where a .45 instead of a .22, or vice versa, would have made a difference in someone's immediate health upon being shot.

I've personally run out of ammo during a Simunition scenario and have seen many other people suffer the same fate. Whether it was bad tactics, bad marksmanship, bad luck, or a combination thereof it's hard to imagine an upside to running out of ammo while the BGs are still present and threatening. Put another way, even if all those extra bullets do is help me out when I've done something wrong (tactically, marksmanship-wise, or by offending the wrong goddess of fate) then it's a benefit.

JConn
03-12-2013, 12:16 PM
All of which really just seems to be my point. Who are the bad guys, how are they armed, how are they trained, how dedicated are they? How is your house laid out, what type of layered response do you have set up, how good a shot you are, and so on all seem to have more impact on the outcome than whether you are carrying a 6 shot .380, an 8 shot .45, a 12 shot .40 or a 15 shot 9mm. YMMV.

OK but all other things being equal, more rounds of a capable defensive caliber>fewer rounds of a capable defensive caliber. Also, everything you outlined above as a more important factor than your gun, would be a reason I would recommend for someone to carry as much weapon as possible. At any given time I don't know who the bad guys are, how man they are, how they are armed, trained etc. That seems to be an argument for more rounds not less.

Chuck Haggard
03-12-2013, 01:46 PM
My point being that SGT York was in fact charged by 7 guys, all with long guns, training, mindset and combat experience, yet they were hosed instead. One factor was that York had a pistol capable of making the hits he needed to make, and enough capacity and power to handle the threat he had to face. That his attackers were sort of stacked up certainly helped.

I'm sure if he had a Groundhog Day do-over and you offered him a Glock 34 with +2 mag bases loaded with +P Gold Dots before his next go that he wouldn't be offended.

More later, gotta go to work.

jon volk
03-12-2013, 01:52 PM
A question for the "carry at home" guys, because I'm legitimately curious. How many of you guys also drink booze at home? If you're drinking, do you leave the gun on?

2-3 beers at most for me and the gun stays on. As mentioned earlier, in a locked home, intentions are pretty cut and dry upon forcible entry. Ive also tried some targeting with the SIRT after a few drinks. It was interesting to see how much skills degraded. 8" and even 3x5 targets were not problematic. 2" dots, eh not so much.

Odin Bravo One
03-12-2013, 02:06 PM
OK but all other things being equal, more rounds of a capable defensive caliber>fewer rounds of a capable defensive caliber. Also, everything you outlined above as a more important factor than your gun, would be a reason I would recommend for someone to carry as much weapon as possible. At any given time I don't know who the bad guys are, how man they are, how they are armed, trained etc. That seems to be an argument for more rounds not less.

But all things are never equal.

The man who possesses the physical ability, and the mental capacity to inflict great amounts of injury without emotional influence will donkey stomp those with a weaker mindset regardless of the tools involved.

And all 8 of his friends............

It is, has been, and always will be:

The Man.
The Mindset.
The Training.
The Equipment.

The only place men are created equal is the DoI. In a fight, "equal" doesn't exist.

The winning traits listed above are in order of priority. Hasn't changed in over 1000 years............. and I've seen nothing to indicate that it is changing any time soon.

JConn
03-12-2013, 02:19 PM
But all things are never equal.

The man who possesses the physical ability, and the mental capacity to inflict great amounts of injury without emotional influence will donkey stomp those with a weaker mindset regardless of the tools involved.

And all 8 of his friends............

It is, has been, and always will be:

The Man.
The Mindset.
The Training.
The Equipment.

The only place men are created equal is the DoI. In a fight, "equal" doesn't exist.

The winning traits listed above are in order of priority. Hasn't changed in over 1000 years............. and I've seen nothing to indicate that it is changing any time soon.

Definitely, and I suppose I could have phrased that differently. All I was saying is that even a guy like you would like to have more rounds over less I would think. So why would someone like me with much less training and much less experience handicap myself with equipment that does not allow room for error. I will never say that equipment trumps mindset or training. I will however advocate having the best equipment possible. That's all.


Edit: for example, a highly trained special operator with a six shot would very probably do better than me with a glock in a fight. However, why would the operator choose not to have more rounds available. Also even though a lot of people here take classes and train, a lot of us don't work with firearms for a living. Because I will never have the practical experience some people here have, I feel it is even more imperative for me to have the best equipment possible. Not at the expense of training, but in addition to training.

Edit 2: by best equipment I don't mean being a gear whore. I mean carrying as much gun as I can and training with it as much as I can.

SouthNarc
03-12-2013, 02:39 PM
But all things are never equal.

The man who possesses the physical ability, and the mental capacity to inflict great amounts of injury without emotional influence will donkey stomp those with a weaker mindset regardless of the tools involved.

And all 8 of his friends............

It is, has been, and always will be:

The Man.
The Mindset.
The Training.
The Equipment.

The only place men are created equal is the DoI. In a fight, "equal" doesn't exist.

The winning traits listed above are in order of priority. Hasn't changed in over 1000 years............. and I've seen nothing to indicate that it is changing any time soon.


Preach it!

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 02:46 PM
I'd say that is making some interesting assumptions, primarily the assumption that York could have employed a tactic that would have given him the same degree of success even if he'd been armed with a P3AT. You might as well say, "If York had been naked, handcuffed, and blindfolded he just would have had to use different tactics."
First, I don't think I ever made any claims regarding the same degree of success. And I'd disagree with your analogy on another point. Naked, handcuffed and blindfolded pretty well negates the use of a firearm. The issue is not firearm response versus non-firearm, it is firearm versus different firearm. If he had been armed with a Colt 1917 revolver he would have needed different tactics, but I think he could have achieved success. Had he been using a captured German Luger he probably would have used different tactics. This bizarre idea that success can only be achieved one way and with only one particular tool seems very odd to me and at odds with my training and experience.


It's one thing to say there are other factors. It is, again, jumping to a heck of a conclusion that you can determine in advance which factors will have the greatest impact on a single incident from among a myriad range of possibilities.
I question whether any single factor can be determined as having the greatest impact, either in advance or after, and again I don't see anywhere that I have said one factor will have the greatest impact. My point is that these things do not exist in a vacuum, and arguing the firearm exclusively while ignoring all other factors is questionable.


I don't doubt for a second that there are incidents in which the caliber or capacity of a handgun make no difference for the defender, for better or worse.

We couldn't throw a stone around here without hitting a doctor who can tell you of instances where a .45 instead of a .22, or vice versa, would have made a difference in someone's immediate health upon being shot.
Again, I don't disagree, I just question this idea that the gun will make that much difference to the outcome simply because of what it is without taking into consideration all the other things that go into a situation. With a 9 on 1 situation,some of the 9 with long guns, in the confines of a home and with the rapid dynamics of a home invasion, I really doubt your choice of handgun is going to play that much into your survival. It certainly can be a factor, but I doubt it is the factor, or even if it is a particularly big factor.


I've personally run out of ammo during a Simunition scenario and have seen many other people suffer the same fate. Whether it was bad tactics, bad marksmanship, bad luck, or a combination thereof it's hard to imagine an upside to running out of ammo while the BGs are still present and threatening. Put another way, even if all those extra bullets do is help me out when I've done something wrong (tactically, marksmanship-wise, or by offending the wrong goddess of fate) then it's a benefit.
We seem to have gone through this disconnect before. There is no upside to running out of mmo. Equally, there is no upside to carrying around ammo you do not need to use. So we all make a compromise on what we carry and how much we carry. Arguing your compromise is good and my compromise is bad is rather silly, IMO.

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 02:54 PM
OK but all other things being equal, more rounds of a capable defensive caliber>fewer rounds of a capable defensive caliber. Also, everything you outlined above as a more important factor than your gun, would be a reason I would recommend for someone to carry as much weapon as possible. At any given time I don't know who the bad guys are, how man they are, how they are armed, trained etc. That seems to be an argument for more rounds not less.
But all things are not equal. And for the record I do not say anything is a more important factor than your gun, I suggest that other factors will have more impact on the outcome than your gun. A small, but I think important, difference. And to go back to an example I am fond of, you don't know if you will be attacked by a tiger while walking around today, so do you carry a large-bore tiger gun around with you? No. So you have looked at your situation and decided that you probably don't need to carry around as much weapon as possible. NONE of us know when we will be attacked, if we will be attacked, how we will be attacked, and so on. Yet we all have different ideas on what is an appropriate load for us to carry around. I would bet none of us carry around as much weapon as possible. We all compromise.

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 03:05 PM
My point being that SGT York was in fact charged by 7 guys, all with long guns, training, mindset and combat experience, yet they were hosed instead. One factor was that York had a pistol capable of making the hits he needed to make, and enough capacity and power to handle the threat he had to face. That his attackers were sort of stacked up certainly helped.
Yes, they were hosed...on an open field, executing a charge, against an opponent who was ready and apparently already in a rather good defensive position. That just doesn't seem to equate to a home invasion to me. He modified his tactics to use the equipment he had available to him at the time. Given his history I see nothing to suggest he would not have been able to utilize different tactics if he had different equipment. But that poses an interesting question...if York had been charged by 9 guys instead of the 6 reported by him, would the fact that he was carrying a 1911 instead of snub .38 have mattered??

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 03:06 PM
But all things are never equal.

The man who possesses the physical ability, and the mental capacity to inflict great amounts of injury without emotional influence will donkey stomp those with a weaker mindset regardless of the tools involved.

And all 8 of his friends............

It is, has been, and always will be:

The Man.
The Mindset.
The Training.
The Equipment.

The only place men are created equal is the DoI. In a fight, "equal" doesn't exist.

The winning traits listed above are in order of priority. Hasn't changed in over 1000 years............. and I've seen nothing to indicate that it is changing any time soon.
Thank you, Sean. You have presented it far clearer than I did.

NavyPiper77
03-12-2013, 03:07 PM
Because when I get home I want to be MORE comfortable than when I am out and about. I want to get out of the jeans, or the chinos, or the slacks and move into sweats, PJs, nightshirts, or maybe a kilt:eek:. As always, it becomes a matter of compromise. I'm fairly secure in my home so I am quite comfortable moving down the scale in bit in my alertness and preparedness.

Love it!!!!
Nice to hear I'm not the only one who likes wearing their kilt for casual, and carries their weapon while wearing it!

As a piper I'm in my kilt a lot and its very comfortable to carry your pistol!

Doc



Robert H. Bledsaw, LCDR FMF/SW, USN SCC
Commanding Officer
Pacific Central Region, 12.7

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 03:19 PM
Definitely, and I suppose I could have phrased that differently. All I was saying is that even a guy like you would like to have more rounds over less I would think. So why would someone like me with much less training and much less experience handicap myself with equipment that does not allow room for error. I will never say that equipment trumps mindset or training. I will however advocate having the best equipment possible. That's all.


Edit: for example, a highly trained special operator with a six shot would very probably do better than me with a glock in a fight. However, why would the operator choose not to have more rounds available. Also even though a lot of people here take classes and train, a lot of us don't work with firearms for a living. Because I will never have the practical experience some people here have, I feel it is even more imperative for me to have the best equipment possible. Not at the expense of training, but in addition to training.

Edit 2: by best equipment I don't mean being a gear whore. I mean carrying as much gun as I can and training with it as much as I can.
But highly trained operators/officers/individuals regularly choose not to have more rounds available. You will find very well trained, very experience and very quallified folks out there that will swear that a 1911 with a comparatively low capacity 7 or 8 rounds is far better than a Glock 17 with 17-20 rounds. Many here will forego the G17 for a G23, even though it has fewer rounds. Heck, I'd bet we have a number who carry around a G26 or 27 and feel it is fine for their purpose. Admittedly my friends and I come from a different time period, but I would put our training and experience on par with most and ahead of many. Some of us still carry revolvers, some carry mouse guns, some carry lots of ammo, some carry little ammo, and so on. Yet we are all pretty confident that when can handle whatever situation we are likely to find ourselves in while understanding that nobody can always prepare for all situations.

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 03:21 PM
Love it!!!!
Nice to hear I'm not the only one who likes wearing their kilt for casual, and carries their weapon while wearing it!

As a piper I'm in my kilt a lot and its very comfortable to carry your pistol!

Doc



Robert H. Bledsaw, LCDR FMF/SW, USN SCC
Commanding Officer
Pacific Central Region, 12.7

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I feel that the male of the species really missed out on a great opportunity when they rejected the kilt as normal, standard, and accepted casual wear.;)

JConn
03-12-2013, 03:30 PM
But all things are not equal. And for the record I do not say anything is a more important factor than your gun, I suggest that other factors will have more impact on the outcome than your gun. A small, but I think important, difference. And to go back to an example I am fond of, you don't know if you will be attacked by a tiger while walking around today, so do you carry a large-bore tiger gun around with you? No. So you have looked at your situation and decided that you probably don't need to carry around as much weapon as possible. NONE of us know when we will be attacked, if we will be attacked, how we will be attacked, and so on. Yet we all have different ideas on what is an appropriate load for us to carry around. I would bet none of us carry around as much weapon as possible. We all compromise.

All I was doing with that statement, which has apparently been misconstrued to mean that I don't believe training or mindset are as important as gear, was removing variables to isolate the factor in question, the weapon that you carry when at home if you do carry one. So for example. Me, same guy, same mindset, same training, same warrior level. Same scenario two instances. In one instance I am armed with generic gun with 10 shots, in the other I am armed with the same generic gun with 17 shots, let's say it would take a minimum of ten shots to neutralize a threat that I am facing. Both guns could get the job done, but one would allow for a small margin of error. This seems so cut and dry to me, maybe I am missing the point. Now if you choose to carry a smaller gun or smaller caliber than what is generally accepted as suitable for duty carry, then that's your decision and I have no problem with it (I carry a smaller gun when running and working out for example). If on the other hand you want to argue that you are equally prepared for most eventualities as someone carrying a full size duty handgun in a duty caliber, then I would say you are wrong. Maybe your mindset and tactics can make up for that difference in equipment capabilities. I just believe in carrying as much as you can reasonably conceal.

TGS
03-12-2013, 03:44 PM
But all things are never equal.

The man who possesses the physical ability, and the mental capacity to inflict great amounts of injury without emotional influence will donkey stomp those with a weaker mindset regardless of the tools involved.

And all 8 of his friends............

It is, has been, and always will be:

The Man.
The Mindset.
The Training.
The Equipment.

The only place men are created equal is the DoI. In a fight, "equal" doesn't exist.

The winning traits listed above are in order of priority. Hasn't changed in over 1000 years............. and I've seen nothing to indicate that it is changing any time soon.


Preach it!

Case in point #1:
40 Trainrobbers vs 1 Gurkha (http://www.neatorama.com/2011/01/29/40-train-robbers-vs-1-gurkha/)

Case in point #2:
Badass of the Week Dipprasad Pun (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/pun.html)

A piece of me wants to think that you're actually better off in dire odds with a primitive weapon if you have the mindset. Our training as shooters teaches us to choose the ammunition load that will result in the greatest chance of physiological incapacitation, as psychological incapacitation is not reliably implemented by any known wounding mechanism we can quantify; I think we need to keep tabs on this mentality and make sure it doesn't spill over into too much into our decisions about the first 3 factors that Sean outlined. While the 33 round Glock 34 might be a technically wiser choice than a knife, nothing says "FML" like watching a truly enraged person come at you with a blade and seeing one of your buddy's hacked up. Psychological incapacitation and taking the will to fight from your enemy certainly becomes a factor at that point, even though terminal wound ballistics will never be able to quantify it on paper. Time and time again throughout history, woefully outnumbered, outgunned, walking-wounded troops on their last leg have carped the diem from a much larger, better equipped, more combat-ready unit by the use of a bayonet charge, yet in all quantifiable assessments they should have lost big time. Quantitative, scientifically supported superiority is not the only answer to defeating your enemy.

So, in short, put me in the camp that says if you have 9 organized dudes coming at you, what you have in your hands is likely to be of little consequence unless you can wield it effect your adversaries will to fight.

David Armstrong
03-12-2013, 07:10 PM
All I was doing with that statement, which has apparently been misconstrued to mean that I don't believe training or mindset are as important as gear, was removing variables to isolate the factor in question, the weapon that you carry when at home if you do carry one. So for example. Me, same guy, same mindset, same training, same warrior level. Same scenario two instances. In one instance I am armed with generic gun with 10 shots, in the other I am armed with the same generic gun with 17 shots, let's say it would take a minimum of ten shots to neutralize a threat that I am facing. Both guns could get the job done, but one would allow for a small margin of error. This seems so cut and dry to me, maybe I am missing the point. Now if you choose to carry a smaller gun or smaller caliber than what is generally accepted as suitable for duty carry, then that's your decision and I have no problem with it (I carry a smaller gun when running and working out for example). If on the other hand you want to argue that you are equally prepared for most eventualities as someone carrying a full size duty handgun in a duty caliber, then I would say you are wrong. Maybe your mindset and tactics can make up for that difference in equipment capabilities. I just believe in carrying as much as you can reasonably conceal.
Sorry, but you're scenario specifically is designed to yield a result you are wanting to see without offering any rationale for considering it as a likely or even possible scenario and offering vagaries. Is a full-size 1911 a full-size handgun in a duty caliber? If so, why is it OK with its limited capacity? Or do you argue that a person who has a G17 is better equipped than a person with a G22 in the Glock family? Is the guy with 10-round gun and a spare magazine better off than the guy with the 17 round gun but no spare mag??:confused:

Mr_White
03-14-2013, 11:24 AM
Equally, there is no upside to carrying around ammo you do not need to use.

If having a supply of ammo (or gun or caliber, etc.) that is ultimately proven unnecessary increases a person's confidence in the capability of themselves + their equipment, allowing them to act with the necessary timely aggressiveness to try overcoming difficult odds, because they have put doubts about themselves and their equipment to bed, then I think that is a far cry from 'no upside.'

David Armstrong
03-14-2013, 04:35 PM
If having a supply of ammo (or gun or caliber, etc.) that is ultimately proven unnecessary increases a person's confidence in the capability of themselves + their equipment, allowing them to act with the necessary timely aggressiveness to try overcoming difficult odds, because they have put doubts about themselves and their equipment to bed, then I think that is a far cry from 'no upside.'
If one's confidence is based not on skill and abilities but by how much excess stuff you can carry around, I would suggest that is a not an upside. I will have the same confidence and act with the same necessary aggressiveness if I am armed with a mini-gun or a snub revolver. My tactics might change quite a bit, but that is about it. Personally I would think carrying around oh, maybe 5,000 rounds would get to be a bit tiring and maybe even slow a person down, so maybe there is a downside?? Again, we all compromise on what we carry based on what we think we will need.

Mr_White
03-14-2013, 04:47 PM
If one's confidence is based not on skill and abilities but by how much excess stuff you can carry around, I would suggest that is a not an upside.

You might consider re-reading what I wrote.

JHC
03-14-2013, 07:02 PM
Planning for the minimum that might be necessary just never suited my Boy Scout heart.

CCT125US
03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
I have confidence in my 442, 1 round is 20% of capacity. I also have confidence in my P30, 1 round is 7% of capacity. The whole my compromise is better than your compromise is a tired and silly argument. If my loved ones or myself are faced with danger that can only be stopped by my actions, I will take my compromise of a P30 any day. Because you see, I give up nothing by carrying the P30 and a reload. My life is not negatively affected by that "compromise". If I am alone, my options are greater, if I have the family in tow my responses are more narrow. Bad people around here travel in pairs or packs and the "compromise" of 5 shots could affect my desired continuation of life. See the difference? If it works for you then great, rock on. We all have our individual threshold of compromise. Now can we talk about the importance of a fast draw or need for a spare mag?? (Since we have not done that here already). Now where is that sarcasm font??

David Armstrong
03-14-2013, 11:12 PM
You might consider re-reading what I wrote.
OK, re-read it a couple of times, don't see anything different. If I have misunderstood your point, my apologies.

David Armstrong
03-14-2013, 11:20 PM
Bad people around here travel in pairs or packs and the "compromise" of 5 shots could affect my desired continuation of life. See the difference?
Exactly. Your compromise works for you. For someone else, your compomise of a P30 and only one reload could affect your desired continuation of life.

The whole my compromise is better than your compromise is a tired and silly argument.
Yep. Don't understand why some have such a hard time understanding that.

Casual Friday
03-16-2013, 12:46 PM
We all make compromises to our safety on a daily basis based upon the perceived threat level, going to Walmart without body armor is one of them.

David Armstrong
03-17-2013, 10:54 AM
We all make compromises to our safety on a daily basis based upon the perceived threat level, going to Walmart without body armor is one of them.

Yep, good point. I doubt many folks sit around the house wearing body armor either, although that would probably have a more likely impact on survival than a few extra rounds of ammo.

Maple Syrup Actual
03-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Yep, good point. I doubt many folks sit around the house wearing body armor either, although that would probably have a more likely impact on survival than a few extra rounds of ammo.

Slippery slope, making observations like that...

Before you know it, you end up thinking "statistically, if I started jogging 5km, 3 times a week...I could stop training, sell all my guns, and still increase my projected lifespan".


Living in Canada as I do, the only places I can legally carry are 1) at home, and 2) at the range. Open carry is actually legal (with a permit) in this province under certain conditions but is geared exclusively towards people working in remote areas...ordinarily the places I feel least at risk, but that's another story.

I carry at home if I feel like it. But I am also on roughly my 13,000th consecutive day without encountering a problem in my home that could be solved with a gun at all, let alone a problem that required a gun in such short order that I couldn't pick it up off my coffee table.

I'm not down on anyone's decision to carry, when or what (assuming Taurus is not involved). But if I stressed out about my own situation, I'd be forced to either a) break the law constantly, or b) emigrate.


When to carry: when you believe it is warranted

What to carry: what you believe might be necessary


You could always carry more, go further, reduce exposure, act more carefully.

But you have to live, also. Everything is a compromise. Do what you think is right, and hope for the best.

ares338
03-19-2013, 08:30 AM
Am I weird? I carry my pistol to the restroom....at home...LOL. On a more serious note...I am disabled and we had a home invasion not 5 minutes from my home. I like to think I'm just cautious.

orionz06
03-19-2013, 08:33 AM
Am I weird? I carry my pistol to the restroom....at home...LOL. On a more serious note...I am disabled and we had a home invasion not 5 minutes from my home. I like to think I'm just cautious.

No because that means I would be weird too. Pistol goes on the sink if I am there for any duration.

Tamara
03-19-2013, 08:52 AM
Am I weird? I carry my pistol to the restroom....at home...LOL.

Well, I look at it this way: The pistol's already on my belt; should I leave it outside of the restroom?

David Armstrong
03-19-2013, 10:25 AM
Slippery slope, making observations like that...
I don't think so. Nobody is actually advocating that, it is presented as an element of the "we all compromise" concept. And I think you present that well with the last sentence: "But you have to live, also. Everything is a compromise. Do what you think is right, and hope for the best." That is what we all do. We make choices based on our own lifestyle, our own comfort zone, our own compromise point, and really about all we can do is hope that we have compromised at a winning point. Frankly, if I felt the slightest need to carry a full-size gun around the house with a spare mag, or had the slightest concern that a large band of dedicated home invaders would come visit me, I'd move. Either that or start rigging foo-gas bombs all over the house!

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 10:42 AM
Frankly, if I felt the slightest need to carry a full-size gun around the house with a spare mag, or had the slightest concern that a large band of dedicated home invaders would come visit me, I'd move.

You are making a dangerous assumption there, I believe.

I have experienced situations in my life that have taught me one very important lesson - and that is that my level of "concern" about an event happening, does not directly correlate to the likelihood of that occurrence. Some of the most dangerous situations that I have been in, were completely unavoidable, unforeseeable, and unpreventable (from my perspective at least).

David Armstrong
03-19-2013, 10:53 AM
You are making a dangerous assumption there, I believe.

I have experienced situations in my life that have taught me one very important lesson - and that is that my level of "concern" about an event happening, does not directly correlate to the likelihood of that occurrence. Some of the most dangerous situations that I have been in, were completely unavoidable, unforeseeable, and unpreventable (from my perspective at least).
IF it is unavoidable, unforeseeable, and unpreventable that is a different issue than feeling a need to do something to adress the problem. If one is feeling the need to address the problem then pretty much be definition one has decided it is not unavoidable, unforeseeable, and/or unpreventable. We cannot live (or should not live) locked in an armored box with no access to the outside. We cannot have perfect security. But just as I do not feel the slightest need to worry about being attacked by a man-eating tiger when checking the mailbox, I likewise do not feel the need to worry about other such equally low-probability events. I don't feel that is a dangerous assumption, I consider it a realistic threat assessment.

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 11:15 AM
IF it is unavoidable, unforeseeable, and unpreventable that is a different issue than feeling a need to do something to adress the problem. If one is feeling the need to address the problem then pretty much be definition one has decided it is not unavoidable, unforeseeable, and/or unpreventable. We cannot live (or should not live) locked in an armored box with no access to the outside. We cannot have perfect security. But just as I do not feel the slightest need to worry about being attacked by a man-eating tiger when checking the mailbox, I likewise do not feel the need to worry about other such equally low-probability events. I don't feel that is a dangerous assumption, I consider it a realistic threat assessment.

Well written. Perhaps you are correct. Thanks for the reality check.

I don't live in a armored box, but I do try to take reasonable precautions. Sometimes those precautions take the form of carrying a handgun, sometimes carrying a rifle, and sometimes I don't carry anything at all. What I do try to do however, is to make a conscious decision though, and not make that decision by my laziness or indecision.... (I guess that is what I should have said the first time around...)

Jay Cunningham
03-19-2013, 11:27 AM
IF it is unavoidable, unforeseeable, and unpreventable that is a different issue than feeling a need to do something to adress the problem. If one is feeling the need to address the problem then pretty much be definition one has decided it is not unavoidable, unforeseeable, and/or unpreventable. We cannot live (or should not live) locked in an armored box with no access to the outside. We cannot have perfect security. But just as I do not feel the slightest need to worry about being attacked by a man-eating tiger when checking the mailbox, I likewise do not feel the need to worry about other such equally low-probability events. I don't feel that is a dangerous assumption, I consider it a realistic threat assessment.

I agree that this is well-written.

If you stay locked in a vault surrounded by guns and NV cameras you can probably achieve perfect security. It also makes you an inmate in a prison of your own making, and also clinically paranoid.

"I am never in Condition White." - Internet Gun Person

The most elite SF guys in the world get killed. It's neither for lack of training, nor good gear, nor armor, nor combat mindset.

Life is fraught with risk.

Mr_White
03-19-2013, 12:40 PM
I do not feel the slightest need to worry about being attacked by a man-eating tiger when checking the mailbox

http://media.komonews.com/images/110720_leopard_attack_2.jpg

How about a leopard?

:D

Wendell
03-19-2013, 12:58 PM
I'm thankful that some people do not allow the randomness of "low probability events" to excuse helplessness, carelessness, dependence, and apathy.
I'm thankful that some people are still prepared to be a Sheepdog.

Marine with concealed carry permit stops man from beating woman (http://fox6now.com/2013/03/12/marine-with-concealed-carry-permit-stops-man-from-beating-woman/)
Posted on: 8:19 pm, March 12, 2013, by Henry Rosoff (http://fox6now.com/author/henryrosoff/), updated on: 12:26pm, March 13, 2013

<http://fox6now.com/2013/03/12/marine-with-concealed-carry-permit-stops-man-from-beating-woman/>

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 04:00 PM
I'm thankful that some people are still prepared to be a Sheepdog.


For the record, I hate the term "sheepdog" with a **censored** passion...

orionz06
03-19-2013, 04:11 PM
Honest to god I vote to censor that god forsaken word from this forum and the internet if possible.

Sparks2112
03-19-2013, 04:13 PM
For the record, I hate the term "sheepdog" with a **censored** passion...

Almost as bad as the term "operator".

Erik
03-19-2013, 04:24 PM
I aspire to be half the operator my sheepdog thinks I am.

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 04:29 PM
No, it's worse than the term "operator" in my opinion, because it gives this aura of supremacy upon the head of the user, and generates this sort of "caste system" mentality. Law Enforcement > Sheepdogs > Peasants.

To hell with that.

Due to my work and lifestyle, I am required to carry a firearm at times. When I don't *need* to carry a firearm, I may or may not carry one, depending on how I feel that day, and if I want the hassle of carrying a **censored** gun.

I don't carry a gun out of social responsibility, and all that happy **censored**. I carry a weapon when I need to, to protect my life and limb from bodily harm, and for whatever other purpose is practical at that given time.

Tamara
03-19-2013, 04:36 PM
You know what's REALLY paranoid?

Living a life where every trip outside the front door involves whipping out the actuarial tables to determine the risk of where you are going and what "EDC LOADOUT" you should carry.

How much more blithe to wake up in the morning and stick the same pistol in the same holster that you do every day, with no more ceremony or worry than you invest in putting your wallet in your pocket... and then STOP TOUCHING IT?

Seriously, people, it's just a gun. No need to get all freaked out over it.

MDS
03-19-2013, 04:38 PM
No, it's worse than the term "operator" in my opinion, because it gives this aura of supremacy upon the head of the user, and generates this sort of "caste system" mentality. Law Enforcement > Sheepdogs > Peasants.

To hell with that.

Due to my work and lifestyle, I am required to carry a firearm at times. When I don't *need* to carry a firearm, I may or may not carry one, depending on how I feel that day, and if I want the hassle of carrying a **censored** gun.

I don't carry a gun out of social responsibility, and all that happy **censored**. I carry a weapon when I need to, to protect my life and limb from bodily harm, and for whatever other purpose is practical at that given time.

So, ah, you're better/smarter/wiser than those people that carry a gun out of social responsibility...? Or maybe I'm just imagining your condescending tone?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy the sheepdog thing, either. But it doesn't make me angry or fill me with the need to say **censored** things. Not picking a fight, just pointing out what strikes me as a self-inconsistency in the last few posts here: you condescend to those who condescend to sheep. What am I missing?

MDS
03-19-2013, 04:39 PM
You know what's REALLY paranoid?

Living a life where every trip outside the front door involves whipping out the actuarial tables to determine the risk of where you are going and what "EDC LOADOUT" you should carry.

How much more blithe to wake up in the morning and stick the same pistol in the same holster that you do every day, with no more ceremony or worry than you invest in putting your wallet in your pocket... and then STOP TOUCHING IT?

Seriously, people, it's just a gun. No need to get all freaked out over it.

/thread

Although sometimes I wear a different holster. You know, like my safari rig if I'm going through tiger-infested neighborhoods...

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 05:17 PM
So, ah, you're better/smarter/wiser than those people that carry a gun out of social responsibility...? Or maybe I'm just imagining your condescending tone?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy the sheepdog thing, either. But it doesn't make me angry or fill me with the need to say **censored** things. Not picking a fight, just pointing out what strikes me as a self-inconsistency in the last few posts here: you condescend to those who condescend to sheep. What am I missing?


Point well taken.

JHC
03-19-2013, 06:49 PM
http://media.komonews.com/images/110720_leopard_attack_2.jpg

How about a leopard?

:D

Brilliant! :D I don't wanna be a sheepdog. I wanna be a LEOPARD!

[could it be this Forester?]

Mr_White
03-19-2013, 07:55 PM
I hate the term sheepdog too.

Leopard > Sheepdog. :p

Maple Syrup Actual
03-19-2013, 08:34 PM
My god I am with you there. I swear to god I am going to start preying on the sick and weak if that old saw gets thrown at me one more time.




In conversation I think I am going to switch to the terms "grapes, grapefruits, and grape nuts".



Some people are just grapes. They sit there on the vine, getting fatter and fatter and sooner or later they get picked.

Then there's grapefruits. They're basically involved in the same activities as grapes, only nobody ends up drunk at the end. Also they're an excellent source of vitamin C.

But a few are grape nuts. There's no good explanation for their connection to grapes, but buddy...look out, because just a small bowl will FILL YOU THE F___ UP. And if you eat a big bowl, it will literally make your jaw tired.


Think about THAT next time you ask yourself "should I carry to the mailbox?"

Well, what are you? A grape, a grapefruit, or a grape nut?

Sparks2112
03-19-2013, 08:49 PM
My god I am with you there. I swear to god I am going to start preying on the sick and weak if that old saw gets thrown at me one more time.




In conversation I think I am going to switch to the terms "grapes, grapefruits, and grape nuts".



Some people are just grapes. They sit there on the vine, getting fatter and fatter and sooner or later they get picked.

Then there's grapefruits. They're basically involved in the same activities as grapes, only nobody ends up drunk at the end. Also they're an excellent source of vitamin C.

But a few are grape nuts. There's no good explanation for their connection to grapes, but buddy...look out, because just a small bowl will FILL YOU THE FUCK UP. And if you eat a big bowl, it will literally make your jaw tired.


Think about THAT next time you ask yourself "should I carry to the mailbox?"

Well, what are you? A grape, a grapefruit, or a grape nut?

You just made my head hurt.

peterb
03-19-2013, 08:52 PM
Well, what are you? A grape, a grapefruit, or a grape nut?

A flake or a nut, depending on who you ask.

pax
03-19-2013, 09:06 PM
You know what's REALLY paranoid?

Living a life where every trip outside the front door involves whipping out the actuarial tables to determine the risk of where you are going and what "EDC LOADOUT" you should carry.

How much more blithe to wake up in the morning and stick the same pistol in the same holster that you do every day, with no more ceremony or worry than you invest in putting your wallet in your pocket... and then STOP TOUCHING IT?

Seriously, people, it's just a gun. No need to get all freaked out over it.

This.

When I get dressed, I get all the way dressed. It's not a big deal.

pax

Jay Cunningham
03-19-2013, 09:29 PM
Grapefruit juice will almost completely nullify the taste of vodka to where it will achieve dangerous effects.

TRUE STORY

Dan_S
03-19-2013, 09:39 PM
Grapefruit juice will almost completely nullify the taste of vodka to where it will achieve dangerous effects.

TRUE STORY

What forum did I log onto.....Pistol-Forum, I thought, but....??



;)

ToddG
03-20-2013, 01:00 AM
I don't carry a gun out of social responsibility, and all that happy **censored**. I carry a weapon when I need to, to protect my life and limb from bodily harm, and for whatever other purpose is practical at that given time.

That's like saying, "I wear my seatbelt when I need to." The problem with this mentality is that you won't know you needed it until it's too late to change state. You aren't going to reach over and click in your belt as you hear the tires squeal and metal tear. Neither can you run home and grab your gun when you realize the nice neighborhood you're in gets visited by someone who thought a nice neighborhood would make a great target for <insert crime here>.

NickA
03-20-2013, 11:12 AM
Honest to god I vote to censor that god forsaken word from this forum and the internet if possible.

I don't know, I think I'm exactly like a sheepdog: I'll guard my sheep. If anyone thinks I'll endanger mine to protect theirs just because I carry a gun they're, well, flocked.
(Obviously there could be exceptions, but by and large my first priority is keeping my family and myself safe.)

orionz06
03-20-2013, 11:17 AM
I don't know, I think I'm exactly like a sheepdog: I'll guard my sheep. If anyone thinks I'll endanger mine to protect theirs just because I carry a gun they're, well, flocked.
(Obviously there could be exceptions, but by and large my first priority is keeping my family and myself safe.)

It's not about what it means it is purely about the word itself. I hate the word. Some people get bent outta shape over clips and operator but sheepdog is one that gets me going.

ToddG
03-20-2013, 11:52 AM
If you guys want to start a thread about words you hate on the internet, start a thread about words you hate on the internet.

Don't derail this thread with it.

Thank you.

Wendell
03-20-2013, 01:40 PM
Tom Clements, the head of the Colorado Department of Corrections, was shot and killed inside his home Tuesday night near Colorado Springs...“The initial information was the doorbell had rung and when Mr. Clements answered the door he was shot,” (El Paso County Sheriff’s Department spokesman Lt. Jeff) Kramer told NBC News...
<http://www.ibtimes.com/tom-clements-colorado-department-corrections-head-killed-monument-home-video-1139013>

TR675
03-20-2013, 02:36 PM
...Mr. Clements answered the door he was shot...

For two weeks I've kept an eye on the local papers' crime blogs and am compiling a database of incidents - what crimes happen to who and when and where they happen. Still to early to call any major trends, but so far a majority of the murders take place in the victims' homes; many of those take place at the front door. Three separate murders of innocent elderly people have taken place at their front doors during this time period; multiple other homicides of younger (I assume) dealer types take place there as well.

I am, frankly, surprised that this is the case. I have been thinking of my home as a "safe zone" and have been mildly suspicious but relaxed when the doorbell rings - no more.

ToddG
03-20-2013, 02:46 PM
Perhaps it's just my general antisocial personality, but I don't answer the door when the doorbell rings unless I'm expecting someone in particular around that particular time. Heck, I don't even get off the couch to see who it is.

TR675
03-20-2013, 02:52 PM
My doorbell is actually an intercom which I just got hooked up to my landline phone system, which is kind of nice and should solve that particular problem for me.

David Armstrong
03-20-2013, 03:38 PM
http://media.komonews.com/images/110720_leopard_attack_2.jpg

How about a leopard?

:D
When I was in leopard country, I worried about leopards!:D Nowadays, not so much.

David Armstrong
03-20-2013, 03:42 PM
DELETED...saw Todd's "words" post.

ToddG
03-20-2013, 03:47 PM
When I was in leopard country, I worried about leopards!:D Nowadays, not so much.

Now it's just the cougars you have to look out for, is that it? :cool:

David Armstrong
03-20-2013, 03:50 PM
For two weeks I've kept an eye on the local papers' crime blogs and am compiling a database of incidents - what crimes happen to who and when and where they happen. Still to early to call any major trends, but so far a majority of the murders take place in the victims' homes; many of those take place at the front door. Three separate murders of innocent elderly people have taken place at their front doors during this time period; multiple other homicides of younger (I assume) dealer types take place there as well.

I am, frankly, surprised that this is the case. I have been thinking of my home as a "safe zone" and have been mildly suspicious but relaxed when the doorbell rings - no more.
I'm doing this off the top of my head, but IIRC research by both Claude Werner and Ed Lovette, looking at different sources, both came to the conclusion that the single most common location for a gunfight was the victim's home.

David Armstrong
03-20-2013, 03:51 PM
Now it's just the cougars you have to look out for, is that it? :cool:
I wish!

Mr_White
03-20-2013, 04:34 PM
I'm doing this off the top of my head, but IIRC research by both Claude Werner and Ed Lovette, looking at different sources, both came to the conclusion that the single most common location for a gunfight was the victim's home.

I wonder why the Rangemaster student data pool show the total opposite? (If I am characterizing it correctly, which I believe I am.)

Mr_White
03-20-2013, 04:35 PM
Perhaps it's just my general antisocial personality, but I don't answer the door when the doorbell rings unless I'm expecting someone in particular around that particular time. Heck, I don't even get off the couch to see who it is.

Me neither.

ToddG
03-20-2013, 05:05 PM
I wonder why the Rangemaster student data pool show the total opposite? (If I am characterizing it correctly, which I believe I am.)

That's an easy one to answer.

Claude & Ed's data involved, for sake of discussion, a wide range of victim-defenders from around the country.

Tom's database is limited to people who've been through one or more of his classes and had the need to carry pounded into their brains.

As such, you would expect the people in Tom's database to be far more likely to be carrying a gun outside the home, thus making them more capable of getting involved in a shooting outside the home. Tom makes a great point in his classes that one reason we think gun-related self defense is so rare is because so few people carry guns. Or to quote him, "Every violent felony is an opportunity for armed self defense." (or words to that effect)

Since the majority of gun owners only have access to guns in the home (by law or by choice), you'd expect the majority of gun uses to be in the home.

Ray Keith
03-20-2013, 05:10 PM
As such, you would expect the people in Tom's database to be far more likely to be carrying a gun outside the home, thus making them more capable of getting involved in a shooting outside the home. Tom makes a great point in his classes that one reason we think gun-related self defense is so rare is because so few people carry guns. Or to quote him, "Every violent felony is an opportunity for armed self defense." (or words to that effect)

Since the majority of gun owners only have access to guns in the home (by law or by choice), you'd expect the majority of gun uses to be in the home.

Another thing he would point out that when looking at UCR data, the Aggravated Assault statistics are key, each generally, not absolutely (allowing for the nuances of various state laws) could have been a use of force in self-defense situation.

David Armstrong
03-20-2013, 05:26 PM
I wonder why the Rangemaster student data pool show the total opposite? (If I am characterizing it correctly, which I believe I am.)
Probably very different sources of data, as Todd said. IIRC, Cooper used to say that he wasn't aware of anyone who went through Gunsite that had lost a gunfight. I doubt that would apply to a different group. Perhaps the training itself would change the issue/outcomes?

Sparks2112
03-20-2013, 08:05 PM
Probably very different sources of data, as Todd said. IIRC, Cooper used to say that he wasn't aware of anyone who went through Gunsite that had lost a gunfight. I doubt that would apply to a different group. Perhaps the training itself would change the issue/outcomes?

Tom's going to be on my show May 12th, I think I might ask him about this if I remember to.

Ed L
03-20-2013, 08:05 PM
I'm doing this off the top of my head, but IIRC research by both Claude Werner and Ed Lovette, looking at different sources, both came to the conclusion that the single most common location for a gunfight was the victim's home.

I believe Ed Lovette's survey included places where it was harder to carry firearms, it may have even took place in such a locale (I'm thinking Illinois, but my memory is hazy on this). BTW, just for clarification, the L in my member name does not stand for Lovette.

Then there is the factor that many more people have firearms in their homes, as opposed to carrying guns. Not all people carry guns; not all guns are carryable, and not all places allow carry.

On the other hand Tom Givens' students' gun are in the state of Tenn where you can indeed legally carry.

The final factor is that Lovette is writing about gunfights--this requires the victim to be armed. It doesn't count situations with unarmed victims, and thus precludes counting situation where someone was unarmed and victimized--whether it was inside the house or outside of it.

TCinVA
03-20-2013, 09:41 PM
I wonder why the Rangemaster student data pool show the total opposite? (If I am characterizing it correctly, which I believe I am.)

Probably because most of Mr. Givens' students actually carry. Relatively few people, even those with permits, make carry a regular habit. Not to speak for Tom, but I believe he's said in the past that we'd see a lot more shootings if more intended victims of crime had guns.

In the home people have the key thing that is missing for most in their daily life: ready access to a firearm.

Ed L
03-20-2013, 11:28 PM
Probably because most of Mr. Givens' students actually carry. Relatively few people, even those with permits, make carry a regular habit. Not to speak for Tom, but I believe he's said in the past that we'd see a lot more shootings if more intended victims of crime had guns.

In the home people have the key thing that is missing for most in their daily life: ready access to a firearm.

You said it much better and more concisely than I did.

Wendell
03-31-2013, 02:40 AM
Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife, Cynthia, were found shot to death at their home outside Forney
<http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/30/texas-district-attorney-found-dead-in-county-where-prosecutor-was-killed/>

1slow
03-31-2013, 11:06 AM
I was in Tom Givens Instructor and Advanced Instructor classes. He mentioned that data like the NRA armed citizen is skewed by the fact that more people have guns in their homes than daily CCW.
Tom also said that aggravated assault is what was called attempted murder before the politicians changed the name because it sounded too harsh.

ST911
03-31-2013, 02:05 PM
I was in Tom Givens Instructor and Advanced Instructor classes. He mentioned that data like the NRA armed citizen is skewed by the fact that more people have guns in their homes than daily CCW.
Tom also said that aggravated assault is what was called attempted murder before the politicians changed the name because it sounded too harsh.

(emphasis mine)

I hope there's something lost in translation or context there. Ag assault and attempted murder still coexist in many (most?) state statutes. If not specifically delineated as "attempted murders", states will have statutory provisions for attempts to commit crime. Ag and an attempt at murder are different crimes, with a variety of differences that can exist between the two of them including but not limited to motivation and intent of offender, injury and perception of the victim, other elements of the offense, offender typology.

Ray Keith
03-31-2013, 09:12 PM
(emphasis mine)

I hope there's something lost in translation or context there. Ag assault and attempted murder still coexist in many (most?) state statutes. If not specifically delineated as "attempted murders", states will have statutory provisions for attempts to commit crime. Ag and an attempt at murder are different crimes, with a variety of differences that can exist between the two of them including but not limited to motivation and intent of offender, injury and perception of the victim, other elements of the offense, offender typology.

I think the point Tom is making, is that whether it's an aggravated assault or attempted murder, it would justify (very likely) deadly force in response.

Wendell
03-31-2013, 10:11 PM
When assessing violent crime rates (and weighing the chances that it will or will not touch us), rather than just considering the number of homicides we need to take into account the number of aggravated assaults, and we need to understand that - for the victim - an aggravated assault can be a very, very, serious event.

1slow
03-31-2013, 10:52 PM
Tom's point was agg assault is a attempt to kill you that failed.

ffhounddog
04-01-2013, 04:12 AM
I carry all the time at home. Normally just a SW3913 or a HK P2000sk because that is my daily carry with the 3913 getting more play in the past few weeks.

Wendell
04-01-2013, 04:18 AM
Texas district attorney, wife, found dead in county where prosecutor was killed
Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife, Cynthia, were found shot to death at their home outside Forney
<http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/30/texas-district-attorney-found-dead-in-county-where-prosecutor-was-killed/>



KAUFMAN, Texas (AP) — Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland took no chances after one of his assistant prosecutors was assassinated two months ago.
Mr. McLelland said he carried a gun everywhere he went and took extra care when answering the door at his home.
<http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/mayor-deaths-texas-district-attorney-wife-not-rand/>

Sparks2112
04-01-2013, 07:43 AM
KAUFMAN, Texas (AP) — Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland took no chances after one of his assistant prosecutors was assassinated two months ago.
Mr. McLelland said he carried a gun everywhere he went and took extra care when answering the door at his home.
<http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/mayor-deaths-texas-district-attorney-wife-not-rand/>


I think I've decided to never answer my door again.

cclaxton
04-01-2013, 08:19 AM
This may be a good place for this question: If you are at your home and answer your own door with a handgun displayed in your hand at low ready (or lower), is that a crime? (I am guessing that will depend a lot on the State/County).

I live in Virginia.
CC

NETim
04-01-2013, 08:21 AM
Out of sight....out of mind.

TCinVA
04-01-2013, 08:43 AM
This may be a good place for this question: If you are at your home and answer your own door with a handgun displayed in your hand at low ready (or lower), is that a crime? (I am guessing that will depend a lot on the State/County).

I live in Virginia.
CC

If there's a girlscout on the other side of the door selling cookies and you greet her with a Glock it may not get you arrested...but it's not going to win you any friends among the local constabulary.

If you feel the need to have a pistol in a ready position to answer the door, don't answer the door.

ST911
04-01-2013, 09:04 AM
I think the point Tom is making, is that whether it's an aggravated assault or attempted murder, it would justify (very likely) deadly force in response.

Quite likely.


Tom's point was agg assault is a attempt to kill you that failed.

Maybe I just need to hear it explained in full message and context. Otherwise, that's...off.

JodyH
04-01-2013, 09:12 AM
This may be a good place for this question: If you are at your home and answer your own door with a handgun displayed in your hand at low ready (or lower), is that a crime? (I am guessing that will depend a lot on the State/County).

I live in Virginia.
CC

Learn and practice "covert ready" aka pistol behind the thigh.
Very low profile while still having gun in hand.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Tom Givens
04-01-2013, 12:08 PM
Skintop- You are absolutely correct, speaking from a technical legal position. That is the theory of it. The practice is different.

If you look at the FBI UCR reports or the BJS reports, there is no column for Attempted Murder. There are only Murder and Aggravated Assault. Here, I cannot remember the last time someone was charged with Attempted Murder. If the victim dies, it is some degree of Homicide. If the victim does not die, it is Aggravated Assault, regardless of how badly they were hurt or how serious the attempt to kill them.

The UCR and BJS stat's are nationwide, and they only list Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery as Violent Crimes.

David Armstrong
04-01-2013, 02:22 PM
Skintop- You are absolutely correct, speaking from a technical legal position. That is the theory of it. The practice is different.

If you look at the FBI UCR reports or the BJS reports, there is no column for Attempted Murder. There are only Murder and Aggravated Assault. Here, I cannot remember the last time someone was charged with Attempted Murder. If the victim dies, it is some degree of Homicide. If the victim does not die, it is Aggravated Assault, regardless of how badly they were hurt or how serious the attempt to kill them.

The UCR and BJS stat's are nationwide, and they only list Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery as Violent Crimes.

Equally important, what the UCR considers an Agg. Assault may not have anything to do with how a state defines agg. assault. One of strengths that is alos a weakness for the UCR is that it provides its own definitions.

SeriousStudent
04-01-2013, 07:30 PM
I think I've decided to never answer my door again.

I always answer the door. But I never open it, unless I am expecting company I have invited. I shall explain.

I go to the door, Glock in hand, and ask "Who are you?" That door is reinforced and protected, etc. But it's not going to be opened.

If I hear an "Uh, I'm, uh" or something that arouses suspicions, the local gendarmes receive a call. If they say they are here to see "insert made up name" but there is no car parked directly in front of my house, the police get called. If they walk away, and disappear down the side of a house into the alley, it's time for the popo as well.

The very last thing I want to do is ignore Paulie Predator and have him bust a window or something to get in. Then we have that awkward social situation where they are in my house, and nobody is expecting to see the other party. I think the technical term police use for that is "witness", and sometimes they append "victim" as well.

So the doorbell rings (and there is a lit sign right under it that says "NO SOLICITING") and the 90-pound GSD mix howls. Then a loud male voice yells "Honey, there's somebody at the door!" Paulie now has to consider two potential witnesses. Then some surly old man asks who they are. They are in a narrow brick funnel in front of the door, with two motion sensor lights. I'm behind a packed bookcase with a loaded weapon. One peephole is obvious, one is not.

I'd honestly prefer they know I'm home, and go bust into an unoccupied dwelling elsewhere. I can't turn the place into Fort Knox, but I can influence their victim selection process.

I used to not answer the door as well, and just ignore them. But then after a conversation with a cop that spent 20 years locking up burglars in a wealthy suburb, I changed my mind.

Hope that helps. Keep up the good work on your radio show.

Sparks2112
04-01-2013, 08:30 PM
Hope that helps. Keep up the good work on your radio show.

Thanks, I appreciate it. :)

ST911
04-01-2013, 09:32 PM
Skintop- You are absolutely correct, speaking from a technical legal position. That is the theory of it. The practice is different.

If you look at the FBI UCR reports or the BJS reports, there is no column for Attempted Murder. There are only Murder and Aggravated Assault. Here, I cannot remember the last time someone was charged with Attempted Murder. If the victim dies, it is some degree of Homicide. If the victim does not die, it is Aggravated Assault, regardless of how badly they were hurt or how serious the attempt to kill them.

The UCR and BJS stat's are nationwide, and they only list Murder, Aggravated Assault, Forcible Rape and Robbery as Violent Crimes.

Thanks for speaking up Tom. Explained in that context, it makes more sense.

Wendell
04-03-2013, 04:03 PM
Justin Marcum, the assistant prosecutor in Mingo County, said Mingo County Sheriff Eugene Crum liked to eat lunch where he could see a pill mill that had been shut down. Crum feared people were trying to restart the operation. A vehicle pulled up beside the sheriff, so he rolled down his window, and was then shot, Marcum said. The attack on Sheriff Eugene Crum comes after a series of high-profile attacks on law-enforcement officials across the United States, including the shootings of Colorado's prisons director and two Kaufman County, Texas, prosecutors in separate but possibly connected incidents.

<http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/04/03/West-Virginia-Sheriff-shot-dead-outside-courthouse/2371365014464/>

NETim
04-04-2013, 07:23 AM
If you're a MAIG member, whenever and wherever you damn well please:

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130311/NEWS02/303110027/Some-Delaware-public-officials-aren-t-shy-about-packing-heat?nclick_check=1

You peons just shut up and pay your taxes. :mad:

GOTURBACK
04-04-2013, 08:39 PM
I do not even have to think about it I carry every day and I carry the same thing every day the only thing that changes is whether it is my .45C or my SK9mm and sometimes it is both, it goes on in the morning and off at night when I go to bed. The only time I feel that I might be more vulnerable is while I am in the shower if someone were to break in at that time, I still have not mounted a holster in the shower but it has crossed my mind.

MDFA
04-14-2013, 08:18 AM
You know what's REALLY paranoid?

Living a life where every trip outside the front door involves whipping out the actuarial tables to determine the risk of where you are going and what "EDC LOADOUT" you should carry.

How much more blithe to wake up in the morning and stick the same pistol in the same holster that you do every day, with no more ceremony or worry than you invest in putting your wallet in your pocket... and then STOP TOUCHING IT?

Seriously, people, it's just a gun. No need to get all freaked out over it.

What she said....

Wendell
04-14-2013, 11:59 AM
FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Two men who attempted to invade a Fayetteville home early Friday morning died after a gun fight with the homeowner, according to WTVD.
<http://myfox8.com/2013/04/13/suspects-dead-after-attempted-home-invasion-in-fayetteville/>

Mr. Goodtimes
04-15-2013, 09:57 AM
I carry when I leave the house simply because it's just not that much trouble to put my gun on when I leave. Keys, phone, wallet, knife, gun. Around the house however, I'm extremely casuall. If a home invasion is such a possibility that you need to carry a gun while laying on the couch, taking out the trash, checking the mail etc; it might be time to reconsider where you're living. I'm an average 24 year old guy, not Jason Bourne or a prosecuting attorney, so nobody is out looking to assassinate me on my front porch.

Now before people jump my shit, I realise that crime happens in the best of neighborhood; my nice suburban home was burglarized twice when I was a child, once when I was home, in which case there was time for my mother to get one of my fathers guns. At my current home, I have a window so I can see who is at door, I don't answer if I dont know them or I'm not expecting someone. When I check the mail or take out the trash I'm also conscious of who's around in the street. It's a very small upper middle class neighborhood, so I know who doesn't belong and who does.

I carry when I walk the dog at night and most places when I go out with obvious exceptions like the gym or bars.

KeeFus
04-15-2013, 10:38 AM
ALL.THE.TIME.EVERYWHERE. Even in NPE I have, at a minimum, a 442 or a M&P Shield, both with a reload. Answer the door with a gun? Yeap. I have a big freaking target that my employer gave me to park in my yard that yells for crazy people to stop by...and they do.

True story: A neighbor is believed to be a mental patient. He stopped by my hizzle one day (when I wasnt home) scaring the crap outta my kids. The very next time he stopped by I met him at the door, properly armed. He aint as crazy as he makes out to because he aint been back. Maybe it was the conversation we had...?

ToddG
04-15-2013, 04:27 PM
If a home invasion is such a possibility that you need to carry a gun while laying on the couch, taking out the trash, checking the mail etc; it might be time to reconsider where you're living.

Wrong, because:


Now before people jump my shit, I realise that crime happens in the best of neighborhood; my nice suburban home was burglarized twice when I was a child, once when I was home, in which case there was time for my mother to get one of my fathers guns.

Thank you.

A year and a half ago I provided private training to a US Senator and his wife because their very nice house, in a very nice neighborhood, with a government-installed and -monitored security system was broken into.

One of our Staff members, who lives in a very nice neighborhood, has multiple neighbors who've been burglarized recently.

But I don't carry around the house because I'm worried about ninjas coming through the chimney so much as I choose a gun and holster that is comfortable enough for all day wear and it's just easier to be armed always than pick and choose when I guess it's safe not to be.

Hatchetman
04-15-2013, 05:45 PM
First time I turned a corner up at my house and encountered a black bear made me a believer. No trash service; we gotta keep our garbage in the shed and run it into town every week or so. Then there was the time I heard something rearranging the deck furniture after midnight. With G 21 and lamp in hand I made my way over to the French door, lit it up, only to see momma bear and two cubs trying to get at the bird feeder. Never forget it: 6 eyes glowing back at me about 18 inches away while I'm thinking "didn't I read somewhere one shouldn't tangle with a sow and her cubs?" These days an 870 is the go to "things that go bump in the night" gun.

Pennzoil
04-15-2013, 06:14 PM
If a home invasion is such a possibility that you need to carry a gun while laying on the couch, taking out the trash, checking the mail etc; it might be time to reconsider where you're living.

This is the spot I put my trash cans. It may not just be a home invasion but may stumble into bad situation outside your house.
http://imageshack.us/a/img696/5116/picturebackup1257.jpg

My brother a couple of years ago had a guy shot on the side walk directly in front of his house. Despite being shot in front of a ER doctor's house the guy didn't make it.

Clyde from Carolina
04-15-2013, 06:40 PM
But I don't carry around the house because I'm worried about ninjas coming through the chimney so much as I choose a gun and holster that is comfortable enough for all day wear and it's just easier to be armed always than pick and choose when I guess it's safe not to be.

Well said.

Captain
04-15-2013, 07:15 PM
I carry around the house in the same gear I carry in all day. If that's not comfortable enough for some reason, I have a shoulder holster setup I switch to. Of course it's not especially useful right now since I sold the M&P. I need to get a P30 compatible holster for it.

Casual Friday
04-15-2013, 07:20 PM
I'm an average 24 year old guy,

Not to "jump your shit", but at age 24 I had some poorly thought out ideas too.

Mr. Goodtimes
04-15-2013, 08:19 PM
Not to "jump your shit", but at age 24 I had some poorly thought out ideas too.

so walking around my own house and taking out my trash with out a gun is a "bad idea?"

Kyle Reese
04-15-2013, 08:24 PM
so walking around my own house and taking out my trash with out a gun is a "bad idea?"

Big boy rules apply. Do whatever you're comfortable with.

Casual Friday
04-15-2013, 08:41 PM
so walking around my own house and taking out my trash with out a gun is a "bad idea?"

No, but making the Jason Bourne reference infers that you think those that do are taking unnecessary precautions.

Sparks2112
04-15-2013, 09:03 PM
No, but making the Jason Bourne reference infers that you think those that do are taking unnecessary precautions.

Kinda was how I read it too, for what it's worth.

Mr. Goodtimes
04-16-2013, 03:59 AM
Big boy rules apply. Do whatever you're comfortable with.


No, but making the Jason Bourne reference infers that you think those that do are taking unnecessary precautions.


Kinda was how I read it too, for what it's worth.

I had a feeling what I was saying would rustle some jimmies, however, I was posing a question and used a fictional character who seriously needed a gun to just take a nap on the couch as an example. I was trying to better understand why the average person would carry a gun around their house all day long, as that is a complete lifestyle change. Maybe Todd or some others here have had some kind of terrible experience that I don't know about? Maybe they're district attorneys or retired cops or perhaps drug dealers that have a lot of people out there that hate them (kind of like Jason Bourne? Lots of people hate him). All I was asking is why? Why do you feel a need to carry a gun around your house while relaxing? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. For me it's an intrusive lifestyle change that doesn't work for me or that I feel a need to adopt. I've accepted the fact that there is no one perfect solution, there are going to be times when I'm unarmed and I'm perfectly fine with that. Given the area that I live in I don't feel a need to carry a gun when I work on my truck, take out my trash, wash my dishes, have a BBQ or watch a movie on the couch. I'm not saying that you are wrong for doing so, simply inquiring why?

Odin Bravo One
04-16-2013, 05:08 AM
I had a feeling what I was saying would rustle some jimmies, however, I was posing a question and used a fictional character who seriously needed a gun to just take a nap on the couch as an example. I was trying to better understand why the average person would carry a gun around their house all day long, as that is a complete lifestyle change. Maybe Todd or some others here have had some kind of terrible experience that I don't know about? Maybe they're district attorneys or retired cops or perhaps drug dealers that have a lot of people out there that hate them (kind of like Jason Bourne? Lots of people hate him). All I was asking is why? Why do you feel a need to carry a gun around your house while relaxing? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. For me it's an intrusive lifestyle change that doesn't work for me or that I feel a need to adopt. I've accepted the fact that there is no one perfect solution, there are going to be times when I'm unarmed and I'm perfectly fine with that. Given the area that I live in I don't feel a need to carry a gun when I work on my truck, take out my trash, wash my dishes, have a BBQ or watch a movie on the couch. I'm not saying that you are wrong for doing so, simply inquiring why?

Because I live in the real world. Where there are real shitheads. Who shoot you while standing on your doorstep. Who break into people's homes while they are there and assault them, sexually assault their families, sometimes kill them, and make off with some trinkets worth a few bucks. Has it happened to me? Nope. In my neighborhood? Nope. To someone I know? Nope.

Perhaps a terrorist extremist is just waiting for an opportunity to become infamous at my family's expense?

But for many victims of such violent crimes, it hadn't ever happened to them before either. Or in their neighborhood. Or to someone they knew.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you.

If we aren't concerned about being a target for violent crime, why carry at all? Guarantee the cops will not be any faster getting to my home than they will be getting to my mugging in the grocery store parking lot. Having spent a few of my younger years as a cop, I can attest to the truth of "cops take just minutes to respond, when you only have seconds".

Sparks2112
04-16-2013, 06:13 AM
I had a feeling what I was saying would rustle some jimmies, however, I was posing a question and used a fictional character who seriously needed a gun to just take a nap on the couch as an example. I was trying to better understand why the average person would carry a gun around their house all day long, as that is a complete lifestyle change. Maybe Todd or some others here have had some kind of terrible experience that I don't know about? Maybe they're district attorneys or retired cops or perhaps drug dealers that have a lot of people out there that hate them (kind of like Jason Bourne? Lots of people hate him). All I was asking is why? Why do you feel a need to carry a gun around your house while relaxing? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. For me it's an intrusive lifestyle change that doesn't work for me or that I feel a need to adopt. I've accepted the fact that there is no one perfect solution, there are going to be times when I'm unarmed and I'm perfectly fine with that. Given the area that I live in I don't feel a need to carry a gun when I work on my truck, take out my trash, wash my dishes, have a BBQ or watch a movie on the couch. I'm not saying that you are wrong for doing so, simply inquiring why?

I'd personally feel pretty silly if I spent all this time and effort carrying everywhere, and got killed in my living room because my gun wasn't on my person. Honestly I probably will go the entire rest of my life without needing a gun, but I could be wrong. I've had 2 incidents where I drew my firearm and fired no shots and 1 where I thought I was goons to have to draw, so maybe I'm not so crazy after all.

Just as an FYI to you, Sean is pretty damn close to Jason Bourne compared to the rest of us, fair warning.

cclaxton
04-16-2013, 06:25 AM
I carry around the house because we have two active houses with college-age kids coming and going, and I want to know that my firearm is under MY control and the rest of the firearms are locked in a safe. That reduces the chance of someone with unproven handgun safety or uncertain mental/emotional health from accidentally or intentionally misusing the firearms. And, it nearly eliminates the chances of theft. A comfortable holster is the key to making it easy...when the belt goes on, so does the gun.

CC

Casual Friday
04-16-2013, 06:27 AM
Maybe they're district attorneys or retired cops or perhaps drug dealers?

There ya go making ridiculous statements again.



Why do you feel a need to carry a gun around your house while relaxing?

Carrying a gun is not cumbersome, and I know that you only have seconds to react if someone breaks in. Sure my neighborhood is nice, quiet, with low crime. However, criminals have access to cars, either their own or ones they've stolen, and travel into the nice areas to rob and steal, not in their own ghetto apartment complex or trailer park.

You've been given many reasons why, you've even been shown a picture of a bloody sidewalk in front of a nice house in a quiet neighborhood. If this thread doesn't give you the faintest clue as to why some of us choose to be carry at home, nothing will.

Captain
04-16-2013, 06:52 AM
From my own experience:

1. My mom experienced an attempted car jacking in the parking lot of a mall in the nice part of town
2. My best friend lived in the nice part of town and their neighborhood had a rash of home invasions by a coordinated group of 4 individuals. They hit 6 different houses in a month and a half before they were caught.
3. I witnessed a shooting in my church parking lot while I was attempting to put my infant daughter in the car.

All of these happened before I carried. That last incident shook me so hard I literally took off work the next day to get my CHL. I carry everywhere. All the time.

Tamara
04-16-2013, 07:23 AM
When I started carrying a gun, it's because I made a decision to start carrying a gun. It has nothing to do with actuarial tables. No, I have no real fear that I'm going to get attacked in my home or while taking out the trash. I mean, I guess it could happen, but odds are against it. But odds are against me ever needing the gun anywhere. Though if I ever do, I can about frickin' guarantee I'll have it.

Upthread Todd said something in a sentence that I usually take two or three sprawling paragraphs to wander around:

But I don't carry around the house because I'm worried about ninjas coming through the chimney so much as I choose a gun and holster that is comfortable enough for all day wear and it's just easier to be armed always than pick and choose when I guess it's safe not to be.

Or, as my friend Kathy put it so eloquently:

What I’m getting at is that years ago I made a decision that my default setting would be to carry my gun wherever I went and whatever I was doing. As a result, if I’m ever not carrying, it is because I made a deliberate decision not to do so right then, based upon some specific reason not to do so. So I don’t have to look for reasons why I might want a gun wherever I’m going. I’m taking my gun with me unless I have a good reason not to. (http://www.corneredcat.com/article/social-considerations/would-you-carry-a-gun/)

It's not that big of a lifestyle change. Believe me, after a while you don't even notice it, and feel a little odd when it's not there, like your shoe's untied or you left your wallet at home or something.

Jay Cunningham
04-16-2013, 07:31 AM
A guy is allowed to raise a contrary opinion and/or play Devil's Advocate as long as he does it without being a troll. I'm not smelling troll here. Some of you seem to feel justified launching personal attacks. Don't do it.

lightning fast
04-16-2013, 07:49 AM
Pretty petty, but simple reason for me... it's more work to take the gun off and put it back as I come and go from the house.
Get dressed for the day, gun goes on. Get undressed at the end of the day, gun goes to the nightstand.

Hatchetman
04-16-2013, 08:28 AM
I had a feeling what I was saying would rustle some jimmies, however, I was posing a question and used a fictional character who seriously needed a gun to just take a nap on the couch as an example. I was trying to better understand why the average person would carry a gun around their house all day long, as that is a complete lifestyle change. Maybe Todd or some others here have had some kind of terrible experience that I don't know about? Maybe they're district attorneys or retired cops or perhaps drug dealers that have a lot of people out there that hate them (kind of like Jason Bourne? Lots of people hate him). All I was asking is why? Why do you feel a need to carry a gun around your house while relaxing? I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. For me it's an intrusive lifestyle change that doesn't work for me or that I feel a need to adopt. I've accepted the fact that there is no one perfect solution, there are going to be times when I'm unarmed and I'm perfectly fine with that. Given the area that I live in I don't feel a need to carry a gun when I work on my truck, take out my trash, wash my dishes, have a BBQ or watch a movie on the couch. I'm not saying that you are wrong for doing so, simply inquiring why?

Because fatal appointments don't call ahead and ask if a specific time is convenient for you.

And hey, when asking loaded questions, don't be surprised should things go "boom."

orionz06
04-16-2013, 08:42 AM
I am still able to pass out on the couch with a dog on my lap and have a gun without or getting in the way. I can transition to playing on the ground or doing whatever else without changing anything. It is simply there and not in the way. If it were not this easy, for me in my situation, I would do things differently.

Tamara
04-16-2013, 08:59 AM
Pretty petty, but simple reason for me... it's more work to take the gun off and put it back as I come and go from the house.
Get dressed for the day, gun goes on. Get undressed at the end of the day, gun goes to the nightstand.

^^^Yeah, what he said. I'm too lazy to gear up like Rambo every time I go in and out the front door. Besides, that's how you forget your wallet at home.

Jay Cunningham
04-16-2013, 09:35 AM
And hey, when asking loaded questions, don't be surprised should things go "boom."

And hey - knock it off.

Chuck Haggard
04-16-2013, 10:36 AM
I got into the habit when I had small children at home. Gun/s on me are accounted for, all others were locked up.

That I spent 18 years on our SWAT team and have almost 2000 entries under my belt, and have been a working street cop for 26 years, may color my world view and what I may have to deal with in the unhappy customer dynamic.

A crew was working our area over really hard a year and a half ago with home invasions and robberies. A lady who was murdered during a car jacking/persons robbery had a CCH license but wasn't carrying that night, in her own driveway/car port, in a "nice" area of town. I note this falls right into the stats that Tom Givens speaks of in his class on debriefs of his student shooting incidents.

David Armstrong
04-16-2013, 11:04 AM
If we aren't concerned about being a target for violent crime, why carry at all?
Because there are times when the chances of being a target or needing a firearm are rather high. There are other times when the chances of needing a firearm are so low as to be virtually insignificant. I always find it interesting how many in the gun community seem to think that everyone should look at all problems and situations the same way, without taking into consideration the differences in lifestyle, concerns, assorted issues and so on. FWIW, if you are concerned about being a target, the better response would probably be to wear body armor all the time. Yet I doubt many of us sit around the house in our Level IIIA vests.

Odin Bravo One
04-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Because there are times when the chances of being a target or needing a firearm are rather high. There are other times when the chances of needing a firearm are so low as to be virtually insignificant. I always find it interesting how many in the gun community seem to think that everyone should look at all problems and situations the same way, without taking into consideration the differences in lifestyle, concerns, assorted issues and so on. FWIW, if you are concerned about being a target, the better response would probably be to wear body armor all the time. Yet I doubt many of us sit around the house in our Level IIIA vests.


And I simply listed my reasons........not yours. Or anyone else's. It's not my job to take into account someone else's view of problems or situations. I'm not, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be the CHL police, and where/when to carry is a choice that each person has to make. Pretty sure I listed the reasons as MY reasons, and why I choose to carry at my home........

ToddG
04-16-2013, 11:49 AM
Because there are times when the chances of being a target or needing a firearm are rather high. There are other times when the chances of needing a firearm are so low as to be virtually insignificant.

There are times when the chances of being in a fatal car wreck are rather high. There are other times when the chances of needing a seatbelt are so low as to be virtually insignificant. But if I'm in my car I wear a seatbelt. I don't -- to borrow Tam's phrase -- "check the actuarial tables" and roll my d100 to see whether I guessed right or not.

Your approach adds a layer of complexity I don't want, and a dependence on luck I don't need.

I've lived in my neighborhood for about fifteen years. In that time, to the best of my knowledge there has been one violent crime committed on the street. It happened about 50 yards from my front door. A neighbor was carjacked at gun point one morning. Is it worth carrying a gun when walking around my neighborhood for 5,000 days because there's a 1:5000 chance that today will be the day someone gets jacked and it could be me? Yeah, it is worth it.

The shopping center where my business's PMB (http://www.theupsstore.com/products-services/mailbox/Pages/index.aspx) is located is very upscale. In the past ten years there has been almost no violent crime there. But one summer, both of the banks (each within 100yd of my PMB) were robbed by groups of armed men. A jogger was shot and killed outside his apartment about two blocks away in part of these nice, safe, planned community. Are the odds of me being involved in any of that crazy slim? Yes. So is it worth it for me to lug a gun and ammo around all day every day? Still yes.

The dividing line in this thread is a matter of lifestyle. Carrying a gun is part of my everyday lifestyle. The days I don't carry are the exception and need to be strongly justified. Carrying a gun is part of my wardrobe... getting dressed includes putting on a gun. That's why I've worked so hard with so many different holster makers over the years to develop holsters that are comfortable all day long even when carrying full sized guns. If it's comfortable and convenient why not carry?

Not carrying is a lifestyle choice, as well. It really is. Think about it. If that gun you were carrying all day in the clothes you've been wearing all day was comfortable enough to drive around, sit in meetings, go shopping, eat lunch, etc. when how is it suddenly too burdensome to wear when you sit in front of the television and eat dinner? It's not, of course. Some people have simply made the decision that the gun comes off the belt because it's what they "do" ... it's just their habit.

Shellback
04-16-2013, 12:05 PM
After this thread started I've been carrying more at home, realistically about 75% of the time. After about a half dozen more knots on his head the little guy is less inclined to practice his sprinting headbutt technique on me. I've also found in the past couple of weeks that his infatuation with me carrying has lessened and he doesn't focus on the gun anymore than he does my shoes now.

Captain
04-16-2013, 12:15 PM
I have always carried around my kids. I have been very open about it, why I do it, and why we don't talk about it. It quickly became a complete non-issue with them.

GJM
04-16-2013, 12:28 PM
The dividing line in this thread is a matter of lifestyle. Carrying a gun is part of my everyday lifestyle. The days I don't carry are the exception and need to be strongly justified. Carrying a gun is part of my wardrobe... getting dressed includes putting on a gun. That's why I've worked so hard with so many different holster makers over the years to develop holsters that are comfortable all day long even when carrying full sized guns. If it's comfortable and convenient why not carry?

Yes!

One of the great things about where I am in America, is I have the right to carry my "rescue and safety equipment." Carrying a handgun provides me peace of mind, it is a right I enjoy exercising, and I like owning, shooting and handling firearms. Can't imagine why others don't feel the same way, but that is their business not mine.

MDS
04-16-2013, 03:49 PM
The dividing line in this thread is a matter of lifestyle. [...] Some people have simply made the decision that the gun comes off the belt because it's what they "do" ... it's just their habit.

Boom! Headshot. Same goes for my watch: I recently changed my lifestyle habits and now wear a watch... all the time. It usually comes on and off at the same times as my gun. My lifestyle habits about my shoes are a different matter: my wife runs a shoe-free home, so I actually take my shoes off when I come inside. I guess when the zombies come I'll be screwed since I'll have to put my shoes on before bugging out? :rolleyes: I'll have to find a local expert and ask.


I have always carried around my kids. I have been very open about it, why I do it, and why we don't talk about it. It quickly became a complete non-issue with them.

Same here. I'm constantly rolling around with the boys, no issues at all. (Well, not since I wised up and started using quality holsters.) I actually tried to get my 3yo to pay attention to my gun, he couldn't care less. I may as well have been showing him the stitching on the hem of my shirt.

ToddG
04-16-2013, 04:01 PM
I recently changed my lifestyle habits and now wear a watch... all the time.

I love you, man.

(and I actually take my watch off when working on the computer most of the time to keep the clasp from getting even more scratched up on my notebook's keyboard)

joshs
04-16-2013, 04:03 PM
My lifestyle habits about my shoes are a different matter: my wife runs a shoe-free home, so I actually take my shoes off when I come inside. I guess when the zombies come I'll be screwed since I'll have to put my shoes on before bugging out?

Just train barefoot.

ToddG
04-16-2013, 04:03 PM
Just train barefoot.

Or retrain your wife.

MDS
04-16-2013, 04:06 PM
(and I actually take my watch off when working on the computer most of the time to keep the clasp from getting even more scratched up on my notebook's keyboard)

I've got to stop reading the !!FIGHT!! threads before reading more serious threads. What I should say here is that holy crap, so you find that wearing your watch is more annoying in your daily life than wearing a full size gun? :cool:

JAD
04-16-2013, 04:25 PM
I've got to stop reading the !!FIGHT!! threads before reading more serious threads. What I should say here is that holy crap, so you find that wearing your watch is more annoying in your daily life than wearing a full size gun? :cool:

What's more telling is that he's more worried about scratching the clasp on his watch than dicking up his $2500 notebook.

Said the guy whose watch is currently being serviced in Switzerland for five times the cost of the perfectly reasonable Mondaine that's on his wrist pro tempore.

David Armstrong
04-16-2013, 04:37 PM
And I simply listed my reasons........not yours. Or anyone else's. It's not my job to take into account someone else's view of problems or situations. I'm not, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be the CHL police, and where/when to carry is a choice that each person has to make. Pretty sure I listed the reasons as MY reasons, and why I choose to carry at my home........
That's great and I support your decision. However, I was addressing the idea behind "If we aren't concerned about being a target for violent crime, why carry at all?" concept.

David Armstrong
04-16-2013, 04:47 PM
from Todd:
There are times when the chances of being in a fatal car wreck are rather high. There are other times when the chances of needing a seatbelt are so low as to be virtually insignificant. But if I'm in my car I wear a seatbelt. I don't -- to borrow Tam's phrase -- "check the actuarial tables" and roll my d100 to see whether I guessed right or not.

Your approach adds a layer of complexity I don't want, and a dependence on luck I don't need.
If I'm on the road I wear my seatbelt. If I am moving my car from one side of the garage to the other, I don't. If I am moving it so I can get another car out, I don't. If I am moving to a shady spot to wash it, I don't. No need to check actuarial tables or anything, and certainly nothing complex about it. As for luck, well I guess someone could be travelling at a high rate of speed, lose control, jump the ditch and crash into me in the yard but I just really doubt it.

Not carrying is a lifestyle choice, as well. It really is. Think about it. If that gun you were carrying all day in the clothes you've been wearing all day was comfortable enough to drive around, sit in meetings, go shopping, eat lunch, etc. when how is it suddenly too burdensome to wear when you sit in front of the television and eat dinner? It's not, of course. Some people have simply made the decision that the gun comes off the belt because it's what they "do" ... it's just their habit.
I think it goes beyond that, but I agree it is in part the lifestyle issue. When I come home I don't continue wearing the same clothes I was in all day, and I don't necessarily do the same things I do the rest of the day. When I was a uniformed LEO I wore a big Sam Browne rig, and it was comfortable enough to drive around in, sit in meetings, drive, go to lunch, etc. But I sure didn't want to wear it kicked back on the couch watching TV, or working in the garden, or playing sports with the family, etc.

ToddG
04-16-2013, 04:56 PM
If I'm on the road I wear my seatbelt. If I am moving my car from one side of the garage to the other, I don't. If I am moving it so I can get another car out, I don't. If I am moving to a shady spot to wash it, I don't. No need to check actuarial tables or anything, and certainly nothing complex about it. As for luck, well I guess someone could be travelling at a high rate of speed, lose control, jump the ditch and crash into me in the yard but I just really doubt it.

This is another way in which we're different, then. I'll put on my seatbelt if I'm moving my car from one parking spot to another. It's automatic: wheels moving, seatbelt is on. The seatbelt isn't uncomfortable and takes no real effort to put on, so why not make it a habit? Same with wearing a gun.


I think it goes beyond that, but I agree it is in part the lifestyle issue. When I come home I don't continue wearing the same clothes I was in all day, and I don't necessarily do the same things I do the rest of the day. When I was a uniformed LEO I wore a big Sam Browne rig, and it was comfortable enough to drive around in, sit in meetings, drive, go to lunch, etc. But I sure didn't want to wear it kicked back on the couch watching TV, or working in the garden, or playing sports with the family, etc.

I'll grant you that if you come home and change clothes you're necessarily going to remove your gun. For me, I'd be putting on different clothes that still had crazy tactical things like belt loops, so I'd still wear a belt, still wear a holster, and still wear a gun. That's always been my line: if I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a gun. Again it's not a matter of being Teddy Tactical, it's just that the belt, holster, and gun are part of my wardrobe like my trousers and my watch.

David Armstrong
04-16-2013, 05:10 PM
Sure, and I don't disagree with any of that. I go back to my point that different people have different concerns and, as you said, different lifestyles, and as I often say it is all a compromise. Different folks will compromise different ways, and there are advantages and disadvantages for pretty much anything. My seatbelt habit, for example is belt goes on when leaving the property. On the property I have a high degree of control over what is going to happen. Off the property I lose some of that control, so my level of security needs to come up some. Same thing with the house. My security level can go down, I want my comfort level to go up.

Tamara
04-16-2013, 05:38 PM
Boom! Headshot. Same goes for my watch: I recently changed my lifestyle habits and now wear a watch... all the time. It usually comes on and off at the same times as my gun.

Heh. Having just started wearing a watch again, that's my routine to a "t" now. As a matter of fact, the watch sits right next to the gun when it's not on my wrist so as not to forget one or the other. :)


I'll put on my seatbelt if I'm moving my car from one parking spot to another. It's automatic: wheels moving, seatbelt is on. The seatbelt isn't uncomfortable and takes no real effort to put on, so why not make it a habit?

Yup. I feel weird behind the wheel without a seatbelt on now. Wouldn't move the motorcycle in the parking lot without pulling on the helmet, either. It was just a habit I wanted to build.

ToddG
04-16-2013, 06:03 PM
Same thing with the house. My security level can go down, I want my comfort level to go up.

That's the real disconnect here. My comfort level doesn't go up when I take my gun off. My gun is both comfortable and comforting.


Yup. I feel weird behind the wheel without a seatbelt on now. Wouldn't move the motorcycle in the parking lot without pulling on the helmet, either. It was just a habit I wanted to build.

Really a topic for another thread but FWIW I take my seatbelt off if the car is idling.

BoppaBear
04-16-2013, 06:33 PM
This is another way in which we're different, then. I'll put on my seatbelt if I'm moving my car from one parking spot to another. It's automatic: wheels moving, seatbelt is on. The seatbelt isn't uncomfortable and takes no real effort to put on, so why not make it a habit? Same with wearing a gun.



I'll grant you that if you come home and change clothes you're necessarily going to remove your gun. For me, I'd be putting on different clothes that still had crazy tactical things like belt loops, so I'd still wear a belt, still wear a holster, and still wear a gun. That's always been my line: if I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a gun. Again it's not a matter of being Teddy Tactical, it's just that the belt, holster, and gun are part of my wardrobe like my trousers and my watch.

This is my thinking exactly (seatbelt and gun). My "night time" attire, up to the point of getting in bed, is a pair of shorts with belt loops and either a t-shirt or some sort of long sleeve or pullover (depending on season). I have a spare gun belt attached to these shorts at all times. When I decide to change into my "night time" clothes, the gun comes off whatever pants/shorts I've been wearing all day, and goes on the nighttime shorts. If I choose not to wear the gun for whatever reason, which is not often, my gun is very close.

I will admit that when I first got my CCW, it was "purely so I can carry a gun in my console while on trips". This is what I would say to myself and anyone that asked me at the time (I was just a young grasshopper). Within a week of carrying, it became part of my routine. From the time I get up in the morning, to the time I go to bed, three things that are with me are my watch, cell, and gun. Keys, wallet, and knife are grabbed on the way out the door.

I feel just as naked without my gun as I do without my watch. The gun is part of me (not to sound cheesy). Another part of my "routine" before leaving, is the old wardrobe/print check, a practice draw to make sure my cover garment of the day is easily cleared, I drop the mag and re-insert to confirm it is well-seated, press check (even though my guns are always loaded with a round chambered), re-holster, and out the door. Takes 30 seconds, but the redundancy has become routine.

Captain
04-16-2013, 07:17 PM
…the old wardrobe/print check, a practice draw to make sure my cover garment of the day is easily cleared, I drop the mag and re-insert to confirm it is well-seated, press check (even though my guns are always loaded with a round chambered), re-holster, and out the door. Takes 30 seconds, but the redundancy has become routine.

I have a similar routine when I put my gun on. I realized how routine it had gotten when my schedule changed temporarily and I found myself trying to do a press check in a completely dark bedroom at 5 am while my wife slept.

David Armstrong
04-17-2013, 11:00 AM
That's the real disconnect here. My comfort level doesn't go up when I take my gun off. My gun is both comfortable and comforting.
So is mine. But different guns have different levels of both comfortable and comforting, wouldn't you agree? So we come back to the compromise issue.

cclaxton
04-17-2013, 11:19 AM
This is my thinking exactly (seatbelt and gun). My "night time" attire, up to the point of getting in bed, is a pair of shorts with belt loops and either a t-shirt or some sort of long sleeve or pullover (depending on season). I have a spare gun belt attached to these shorts at all times. When I decide to change into my "night time" clothes, the gun comes off whatever pants/shorts I've been wearing all day, and goes on the nighttime shorts. If I choose not to wear the gun for whatever reason, which is not often, my gun is very close.

I will admit that when I first got my CCW, it was "purely so I can carry a gun in my console while on trips". This is what I would say to myself and anyone that asked me at the time (I was just a young grasshopper). Within a week of carrying, it became part of my routine. From the time I get up in the morning, to the time I go to bed, three things that are with me are my watch, cell, and gun. Keys, wallet, and knife are grabbed on the way out the door.

I feel just as naked without my gun as I do without my watch. The gun is part of me (not to sound cheesy). Another part of my "routine" before leaving, is the old wardrobe/print check, a practice draw to make sure my cover garment of the day is easily cleared, I drop the mag and re-insert to confirm it is well-seated, press check (even though my guns are always loaded with a round chambered), re-holster, and out the door. Takes 30 seconds, but the redundancy has become routine.

Keep around a BUG gun, like S&W Bodyguard or Ruger LCP and slip it in your pocket...hardly notice it's there.
CC

Chuck Haggard
04-17-2013, 11:21 AM
What ever the gun used, the most important thing I have seen to bust up a home invasion, once the door in breeched (best case is to have a door they can't get through...), is an immediate and violent gunfire response.

Locally we had a three man team try to bust into the front door of a single family home, the resident had just returned from plinking and had a Buckmark loaded up on the table where he was about to take the gun apart to clean it while watching some TV. The door breaks open, the three bad guys jam in the door ala The Three Stooges, they start taking accurate and rapid incoming, they quickly decide to attend to an urgent appointment at the ER and "run away" Monty Python style.

This would be another example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0

LittleLebowski
04-17-2013, 11:38 AM
What ever the gun used, the most important thing I have seen to bust up a home invasion, once the door in breeched (best case is to have a door they can't get through...), is an immediate and violent gunfire response.

Locally we had a three man team try to bust into the front door of a single family home, the resident had just returned from plinking and had a Buckmark loaded up on the table where he was about to take the gun apart to clean it while watching some TV. The door breaks open, the three bad guys jam in the door ala The Three Stooges, they start taking accurate and rapid incoming, they quickly decide to attend to an urgent appointment at the ER and "run away" Monty Python style.

This would be another example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0

I'd love to see the story on that local one, tpd223.

ToddG
04-17-2013, 11:40 AM
So is mine. But different guns have different levels of both comfortable and comforting, wouldn't you agree? So we come back to the compromise issue.

No, I really don't think so.

My postulate: any gun/holster combination comfortable and convenient enough that I can wear it concealed all day long outside the home is also comfortable and convenient enough to wear inside the home.

You think I want to split hairs about what gun is more effective in a fight, and I think you want to split hairs on what gun is more comfortable. To me, comfort is a pretty black & white thing. Either the gun is comfortable enough or it's not. I wear it and I know, right now, whether it's comfortable. But the capability of a gun isn't as black and white because -- unlike comfort -- there's really no way to know in advance what will or won't be satisfactory. So once I reach a minimum threshold in the "comfort" department I'd rather have more gun, not more comfort.

So far in my life, every single day that I've carried a gun I have carried more gun than I needed. I'd like to continue that tradition. When I die, I want people to make fun of me for carrying too big a gun every day when I didn't need to... instead of making fun of me because I died from not having enough gun when I needed it.

David Armstrong
04-17-2013, 02:29 PM
My postulate: Even though any gun/holster combination comfortable and convenient enough that I can wear it concealed all day long outside the home is also comfortable and convenient enough to wear inside the home, the need to wear the same gun is different as I am in a more controlled environment. Many people do not wear the same clothes around the house that they do outside, and so a different gun/holster combination may prove more practical.

You think I want to split hairs about what gun is more effective in a fight, and I think you want to split hairs on what gun is more comfortable.
No need to split hairs, some guns are more comfortable than others, and that comfort can vary depending on the clothing you are wearing. Again, a Sam Browne rig is comfortable in one situation, but not in another.

So far in my life, every single day that I've carried a gun I have carried more gun than I needed.
So have I, even on those days when I was carrying a .38 snub or a .22 mousegun. :cool:

MDS
04-17-2013, 03:11 PM
My postulate: Even though any gun/holster combination comfortable and convenient enough that I can wear it concealed all day long outside the home is also comfortable and convenient enough to wear inside the home, the need to wear the same gun is different as I am in a more controlled environment.

If we agree on this, for the sake of discussion, can you tell me what you gain by wearing a different gun than one that is "comfortable and convenient enough to wear inside the home?" I have no issue with anyone's choice to take their gun off at home - I'm just honestly curious about the comfort-related explanations that some folks offer.

On a related note, so far this week I haven't worn a gun before noon. I'm working from home now, and haven't actually put on pants until lunch. :cool:

cclaxton
04-17-2013, 04:08 PM
When I put on a belt, I put on the holster and my normal carry gun (Kimber CDP 9mm), even when I am just going down one floor. But sometimes I have just a pair of workout shorts for exercise or a robe for lounging (or letting the cat in). My S&W Bodyguard slips into either of those pockets nicely. I do not do strenuous exercise with it in my pocket, but its laying close by when I do.
CC

David Armstrong
04-17-2013, 04:18 PM
If we agree on this, for the sake of discussion, can you tell me what you gain by wearing a different gun than one that is "comfortable and convenient enough to wear inside the home?" I have no issue with anyone's choice to take their gun off at home - I'm just honestly curious about the comfort-related explanations that some folks offer.

On a related note, so far this week I haven't worn a gun before noon. I'm working from home now, and haven't actually put on pants until lunch. :cool:


You hit one issue...not putting pants on. And some of that may be cultural and background. I was raised on a farm, and your work clothes were NOT your house clothes. I'm still that way. When I get home the chinos come off and the sweatpants or the shorts or the PJs go on.

As for the other issue, I go back to the example of the Sam Browne rig. It is well designed and comfortable, at least it was before we started hanging 20 pounds of gear on it. You can wear it all day, you can drive with it on, you can work at the desk, and so on. But it really isn't that comfortable for lounging around. A S&W Mdl 65 with a 4" barrel is comfortable and convenient enough to wear around the home...but a 2" Airweight is MORE comfortable and convenient. Given the control and security of my home environment the Airweight provides me all the protection I feel that I need. Sure, I could lounge around in my body armour with a S&W 29 in a shoulder rig, a Glock 17 on my hip, and a brace of Airweights in ankle holsters, but I just really don't see what I would gain. As another way of looking at it, my daily driver compact pickup is comfortable and convenient enough for me to drive it to Oklahoma. But my Crown Vic is more comfortable and convenient. So barring some unusual issue, which do you think I drive?

MDS
04-17-2013, 06:09 PM
You hit one issue...not putting pants on. And some of that may be cultural and background. I was raised on a farm, and your work clothes were NOT your house clothes. I'm still that way. When I get home the chinos come off and the sweatpants or the shorts or the PJs go on.

Makes total sense. On the other hand, I grew up on a server farm, so my work clothes and my house clothes are pretty much the same. ;) I'm pretty comfortable in my house without a gun, but it's just easier for me to treat it like part of my pants and wear it all day. If that's incompatible with how you like to lounge around in your house, cool, but let's not turn that simple and innocent difference into a debate about risk postures and mitigation strategies.

As for the body armor and the brace of j-frames, that strikes me as disingenuous. We're talking about a CCW situation with a pistol and maybe a mag, not Blackhawk Down with NVG's and a SAW. What's really great about the imagery, though, is that it reminds me of good people in bad places, living in tents and crapping in bags in between getting shot at or blown up, who are willing to give their lives so you and I can enjoy our different lifestyle choices...

In any case, I would never drive a Crown Vic anywhere. It's been my experience that everyone assumes you're a cop and starts to go 55, slowing me down quite a bit... :p

BoppaBear
04-17-2013, 09:06 PM
Keep around a BUG gun, like S&W Bodyguard or Ruger LCP and slip it in your pocket...hardly notice it's there.
CC

I've thought about this, and probably will add a j-frame or mouse gun to my collection purely for running, yard work, mountain biking, etc., but it would not be for a comfort-related issue. It would be to have the option...problem is, I like 10+ (sk=10; P30=15) rounds and a 15 round reload, and that's what I get when I'm carrying my sk or P30. Luckily, between my previous method of carry that was used for years (MTAC), and my current method of carry (Shaggy), with a good belt, my guns are comfortable to have on me all the time. Just haven't gotten that BUG (plus, having 2 concealed guns on your person in NC is illegal). Need one though, just for giggles.

BoppaBear
04-17-2013, 09:23 PM
So far in my life, every single day that I've carried a gun I have carried more gun than I needed. I'd like to continue that tradition. When I die, I want people to make fun of me for carrying too big a gun every day when I didn't need to... instead of making fun of me because I died from not having enough gun when I needed it.

Again, my thoughts also. For me, since the gun(s) I carry daily are as "comfortable" as they are, why not continue to carry them at home? This, and for me, the decision to carry wasn't made on the basis of physical comfort, although it sure makes life better.

My home/neighborhood is safe by most definitions, and the demographic in our area is in the higher end of the income scale (not bragging, just using for example), but that doesn't mean some strung out crack head passing through my little "utopian heaven" between his latest buy and his hood (example of course) isn't going to think that knocking over a couple of supposed "haves'" houses is good idea. So, I'm prepared for he and several of his friends (ok, and probably their friends too). Same thing when I leave the house, and I carry my P30 with a 15 round back-up or my sk with a 15 round back-up. Damned if I don't hope I can end a conflict before I run the second mag dry, but I don't know, I've never been in a situation where I'm shooting at something that is possibly shooting back at me. I hope my training takes over, and think it will, but I just don't know. I feel as naked without that reload as I do without the gun itself.

I guess I'm a self-proclaimed capacity whore, and I'm fine with that as I type this response, laying on the couch with my P30 AIWB, and the spare in my back pocket (that's all I change when I get home...I trade out the IWB mag pouch for a sleeve in my back pocket...loosens up the old waistline a bit).

David Armstrong
04-18-2013, 10:39 AM
from mario:
As for the body armor and the brace of j-frames, that strikes me as disingenuous. We're talking about a CCW situation...
That is where we disagree. It is not a CCW situation, it is a home environment situation to me. We are in (or perhaps should be in) an environment where the risk factors have been reduced significantly, and what risk factors are there are somewhat controlled. For Pete's sake, we are about to go to sleep here at some tome, without any gun on our perosn at all.
If the concern is personal safety I contend the body armor/no body armor paradigm offers more for that issue than does the big gun/small gun paradigm. Again, if one wants to haul around a bigger, heavier gun that is great, but don't see trying to argue that it is better just because it is different from a smaller, lighter gun unless one can show the difference matters.

In any case, I would never drive a Crown Vic anywhere. It's been my experience that everyone assumes you're a cop and starts to go 55, slowing me down quite a bit.
Get one in an oddball color? Besides, I've found the "Oops, I better pull over out of the fast lane" response when I come up behind someone to more than make up for the slowdowns!;)

MDS
04-18-2013, 11:58 AM
It is not a CCW situation

Maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about my CCW habits, and the fact that I don't take my gun off when I get home. The conversation about home defense is related but distinct. Which topic are we discussing?


Again, if one wants to haul around a bigger, heavier gun that is great, but don't see trying to argue that it is better just because it is different from a smaller, lighter gun unless one can show the difference matters.

I don't think anyone said it was better to haul around a bigger gun per se, and injecting that into the conversation strikes me, again, as disingenuous. As for whether the difference matters, it matters to me for reasons recently discussed ad nauseum. I understand that the difference doesn't matter to you, also for reasons recently discussed ad nauseum. I think we understand each other. Again, what exactly are we debating?


Get one in an oddball color?

Seems like a good idea, doesn't it? Except I am of a, ah, tropical persuasion. If I drove around in a lime green Crown Vic, I couldn't get 3 blocks without a real cop on my tail... ;)

David Armstrong
04-18-2013, 12:13 PM
Maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about my CCW habits, and the fact that I don't take my gun off when I get home. The conversation about home defense is related but distinct. Which topic are we discussing?
I've been working off the OP: "A lot of times I take off my gun and holster if I'm gonna be home for the day and throw it back on if I'm running out for something."


I don't think anyone said it was better to haul around a bigger gun per se, and injecting that into the conversation strikes me, again, as disingenuous. As for whether the difference matters, it matters to me for reasons recently discussed ad nauseum.
If the difference doesn't matter, why haul around the bigger gun?

Seems like a good idea, doesn't it? Except I am of a, ah, tropical persuasion. If I drove around in a lime green Crown Vic, I couldn't get 3 blocks without a real cop on my tail... ;)
If someone drives around in a lime green Vic they deserve to get stopped, no matter what their "persuasion"!;)

MDS
04-18-2013, 01:10 PM
I've been working off the OP: "A lot of times I take off my gun and holster if I'm gonna be home for the day and throw it back on if I'm running out for something."

Yep. Sounds like a CCW conversation to me... When you read that, you get images of plate carriers and braces of j frames? :confused:


If the difference doesn't matter, why haul around the bigger gun?


This is more disingenuousness. (Disingenuity?) You read carefully enough to know that the difference does matter to me.
If the difference doesn't matter, why not haul around the bigger gun?



If someone drives around in a lime green Vic they deserve to get stopped, no matter what their "persuasion"!;)

Fair enough, but the Internet made me do it.

David Armstrong
04-18-2013, 01:19 PM
Yep. Sounds like a CCW conversation to me... When you read that, you get images of plate carriers and braces of j frames? :confused:
No, I get images of not wandering around the house with my full CCW street gear on. Others are apparently trying to suggest that is a bad idea.




This is more disingenuousness. (Disingenuity?) You read carefully enough to know that the difference does matter to me.
If the difference doesn't matter, why not haul around the bigger gun?

Yes, the difference does matter to you, but that evades the issue of "I don't think anyone said it was better to haul around a bigger gun per se." If it is not better, why do it? I'm not arguing against anyone carrying anything they want, or nothing if they want, I just think many of the arguments that have been posed about when and what to carry seem to be questionable.

MDS
04-18-2013, 01:43 PM
Others are apparently trying to suggest that is a bad idea. [...] many of the arguments that have been posed about when and what to carry seem to be questionable.

Fair enough, maybe I'm not reading carefully enough. Can you point out some of those arguments?

David Armstrong
04-18-2013, 01:52 PM
Fair enough, maybe I'm not reading carefully enough. Can you point out some of those arguments?
I think if you read the thread and don't get the arguments already nothing I do will change that, I'm afraid. We are apparently looking at things from a very different perspective.

Chuck Whitlock
04-20-2013, 02:44 PM
The late Finn Aagaard once wrote a pearl of wisdom that I have carried with me for many years:

"As long as I am armed, I don't much care who else around me is."

Not sure exactly what magazine/article that was in, but searching around I found this, which to me fits into the topic:

http://practicalfirearmstraining.com/Reading/Responsably-Armed.cfm

Drang
04-20-2013, 07:53 PM
I have tried to avoid going out unarmed for years now*, but I was often satisfied by dropping a pocket pistol and a spare mag in the pocket

While one mass murder does not a terror campaign make, I freely admit that I consider the local "Russian" immigrant community, which I know for a fact includes some with connections to Chechnya, and think maybe I'd better replace the PF9 or LCP with the 1911 on even short errands or in warm weather (assuming we ever get any), and start carrying two or more spares...

Maybe pack the BUG, too.

*Exceptions: Going to work; cannot carry there and no satisfactory, secure place to store a piece. I live around the corner from an elementary school, and neighborhood watch meetings are sometimes held there. If I'm going to Ft Lewis and back, no stops, I used to leave a pistol at home, no more. Now, if I'm going there or running to the post office I'll lock my pistol up while I'm inside.

Wendell
04-21-2013, 10:30 AM
Police respond to a fire outside convenience store to find burning victim of vicious attack.
01:25 | 04/13/2013
<http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/man-set-fire-inside-car-refusing-give-transient-18947359>