How many lumens do you need on weapon mounted light? [Archive]

karmapolice

03-06-2013, 08:44 AM

Ok I am sick and tired of the whole blinding you shit, excuse my french but blindess is a permanent thing not a temporary thing. Also the omg white walls and bright flashlights thing is stupid. I'm a cop, I work in the hours when most of society is in bed aka the midnight shift. In my job I have cleared a metric shit ton of structures ranging from massive warehouses, 5 story abandoned college buildings, to shotgun shack houses. I use a surefire x300 ultra on my pistol and before it was born to this earth its ancestor the x300, my handheld is a surefire fury tactical and before that a 200 lumen g2 led. 500 lumens reflecting of white walls will not burn your eyeballs, that is a myth and needs to stop being spread. The 500 lumen lights surefire is putting out now are wonderful and give more spill to id your surroundings and target. Same goes with the bad guy will be blinded by my mighty flashlight, again myth. I have a big spot light on my car that is way more than 500 lumens it does not blind me but it sure does illuminate me or what I am pointing it at like a car or a person etc. The point of a light is too be able to see what ever the heck you are looking at and id it and the brighter the better. I have taken a couple of night shooting classes and one of the last was a Talon Defense night fighter course, ask anyone in that class which they would prefer 200 or 500 and I bet you they all say 500. Plus unless you live your entire life inside of a structure, you will eventually venture outside and want that 500 lumens you wish you had inside even more. If you don't agree with me fine, take my opinion for what its worth an opinion but at the end of the day I stand behind it and have experiences to fortify it.

Also for the light recommendations, on my personal and work pistols I run the x300 ultra and on my work and personal carbines I run fury defenders/or eag tactical version. I paid for all of them out of my own pocket and even run a fury tactical handheld on my duty belt. All my department issued me was a streamlight which I hope to replace with the surefire lawman when I can afford it.

littlejerry

03-06-2013, 08:55 AM

Ok I am sick and tired of the whole blinding you shit, excuse my french but blindess is a permanent thing not a temporary thing. Also the omg white walls and bright flashlights thing is stupid. I'm a cop, I work in the hours when most of society is in bed aka the midnight shift. In my job I have cleared a metric shit ton of structures ranging from massive warehouses, 5 story abandoned college buildings, to shotgun shack houses. I use a surefire x300 ultra on my pistol and before it was born to this earth its ancestor the x300, my handheld is a surefire fury tactical and before that a 200 lumen g2 led. 500 lumens reflecting of white walls will not burn your eyeballs, that is a myth and needs to stop being spread. The 500 lumen lights surefire is putting out now are wonderful and give more spill to id your surroundings and target. Same goes with the bad guy will be blinded by my might flashlight, again myth. I have a big spot light on my car that is way more than 500 lumens it does not blind me but it sure does illuminate me or what I am pointing it at like a car or a person etc. The point of a light is too be able to see what ever the heck you are looking at and id it and the brighter the better. I have taken a couple of night shooting classes and one of the last was a Talon Defense night fighter course, ask anyone in that class which they would prefer 200 or 500 and I bet you they all say 500. Plus unless you live you entire life inside of a structure you will venture outside and want that 500 lumens you wish you had inside even more. If you don't agree with me find, take my opinion for what its worth an opinion but at the end of the day I stand behind it and have experiences to fortify it.

Also for the light recommendations, on my personal and work pistols I run the x300 ultra and on my work and personal carbines I run fury defenders/or eag tactical version. I paid for all of them out of my own pocket and even run a fury tactical handheld on my duty belt. All my department issued me was a streamlight which I hope to replace with the surefire lawman when I can afford it.

Karma, i'll defer to you on clearing various structures but my own observations are not a myth.

I am not in a position where I am searching or clearing warehouses, garages, or large rooms in general. The max range I need to illuminate something in my home is 10 yards. I also happen to have white walls. If I use my 200 lumen light inside with no ambient I'm left seeing spots... Blind enough I can't see a chair or something similar that may be in my way while moving.

The 200 lumen light is great outside though. And on poorly lit streets.

JV_

03-06-2013, 09:01 AM

my own observations are not a myth.I agree, it's not a myth.

Sensitivity to light, and your pupil's ability to adjust to different light levels - quickly (pupillary response?), is not set/fixed speed for everyone. Just because someone has an issue with it, doesn't mean the guy standing next to him will too.

As time goes on, I'm finding myself increasingly sensitive to bright lights when it's dark. It's more noticeable with headlights and driving at night.

JodyH

03-06-2013, 09:37 AM

On patrol your eyes are adjusted to the dash lights, streetlights and ambient light.
500 lumens is not going to a huge shock to your eyes, even in a small area with bright white walls.
At home when you're awakened from a deep sleep, in a dark room, with your eyes fully dilated, 500 lumens is going to be disorienting for a few seconds until they adjust.

I too have taken multiple low light classes and train regularly inside and outside structures.
I have lights ranging from 30 lumens to 1500 lumens.
On my defensive handgun I run a Viridian C5L which has a 100 lumen LED white light.
I have never felt the need for more light inside my house nor outside out to 30 yards.
If I do need more light (say I need to check out the backyard) next to it on the nightstand is a Surefire Aviator 120 lumen incandescent and a Fenix TK35 820 lumen LED.

Mission drives gear selection.
If the majority of my anticipated low light activities started with me being wide awake, eyes adjusted and consisted of searching indoors and outdoors areas of varying sizes I too would spring for a brighter light.
But since my light is on my "nightstand" pistol and it's primary mission is to light up the inside of my house when I'm awakened at 2am, a sub-200 lumen weaponlight is more than adequate with less chance of being a liability.

Byron

03-06-2013, 09:51 AM

Ok I am sick and tired of the whole blinding you shit, excuse my french but blindess is a permanent thing not a temporary thing.
OK. I guess it's fine for you to believe that words mean different things, but no, the term "blind" is not restricted to a permanent state.

Flash blindness is visual impairment during and following exposure to a light flash of extremely high intensity.

Flash blindness is caused by bleaching (oversaturation) of the retinal pigment. As the pigment returns to normal, so too does sight. In daylight the eye's pupil constricts, thus reducing the amount of light entering after a flash. At night, the dark-adapted pupil is wide open so flash blindness has a greater effect and lasts longer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_blindness

Also the omg white walls and bright flashlights thing is stupid.
Cool - I must be stupid then, as I have indeed given myself flash blindness from the splashback off a white wall. Please teach me to be smart, because I have yet to find a way to consciously control my retinal pigment.

JHC

03-06-2013, 09:55 AM

I've run into the splash back from 200 lumen and didn't like it but didn't find it debilitating. My light on the pistol at night is for speed ID before shooting in a narrowly defined scenario i.e. I need it before I move 10 feet and hit key switches that light up the downstairs, stairs and upstairs hallways like daytime. I see no advantage to stalking with a weapon mounted light through a dark house alone; when an assailant wants to hide in the dark and ambush me. He wants dark. I want light. At that point; I guess I'd side with more power to light up knooks and crannies.

BobLoblaw

03-06-2013, 05:07 PM

I have an x300 and an x300 ultra. I live in a small apartment with white walls and have used my alarm clock for response drills in the middle of the night with both lights. I have light sensitive eyes and always have a pair of polarized sunglasses if it's sunny. I have experienced no "backsplash" effect. If you experience this, you are using your weaponlight incorrectly indoors. Momentary on/off while cornering or "slicing the pie" will not produce this effect. Any light will make you see spots if you put your face and light close enough to a white surface. Having said that, if you see spots from the refracting light do you think a home invader can see anything while in the path of the light beam?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Shawn.L

03-06-2013, 07:30 PM

Southnarcs Armed Movement In Structures coursework would change A LOT of the opinions in this thread re: Lumens, and strobe.

Maybe Im burnt out on internet discussions, but Im no longer very interested in going around and around trying to convince by logic what really should be learned from experience.

All I can say is if you havent used your techniques and equipment against real live adversaries who can think, move, and act on their own with a desire to defeat you then perhaps your opinions shouldnt be so strong. Im not interested in what technique, gear, or insights anyone might have without knowing WHY they feel that way and what experiences led them there. And since I dont personally have the wherewithal to lay mine out here I wont presume to speak with any authority on the subject.

karmapolice

03-06-2013, 07:36 PM

Any light from a full sleep is going to cause some "flash blindness" but I do not have issues when I am actually able to sleep during the night like a normal person and get woken up in the middle of the night. Also when I sleep during the day which is most of the time and I wake up from deep sleep to the sun blaring in my room as I do not have black out curtains I do not suffer from "flash blindness". Also 99.9% of peoples home have a lot of ambient light going on from electronics to other sources including street lamps outside. Everybody thinks 500 lumens is like looking into the sun but a standard incandescent 60w bulb = 840 lumens. The average paddle fan in your room has at least two, omg that 1680 lumens, do you go "flash blind" when you turn your bedroom light on in the middle of the night with the white walls. The area where I work is a very dark area its not a neon light city area, there are plenty of times I go blacked out in my car to inside a small house with white walls using my weapons light, or from being in deep thick woods and relying on the ambient light from the moon and or whatever bleed off from other light sources to going inside structures and searching them. Like I said in the bottom of my post take it for what it is an opinion, if it bothers you I am sorry but again it is my opinion and experience, if I see the light some day and realize I was wrong, i'll be the first to admit it and will take any chastising.

JMS

03-07-2013, 11:27 AM

I'll take a DoN BUMED reference over anything Wikipedia has to say in terms of assigning a correct medical/physiological definition. I know that Wiki isn't the user-changeable thing of the past, but it's STILL the USA Today of reference material.

Blindness is a permanent effect, even if it's not a complete cessation of one's ability to see SOMEthing. If one is not using the internet and engaging in day-to day navigation via 1) Braille, or 2) a white cane and a dog with a roller-bag handle attached to its harness, or 2) after a sudden need for glasses that can practically see into the future after a particular event created the need to don such....one is not now, nor has ever been in any way blinded.

Magazine/clip; not the same things. Such it is with the difference between blinded and dazzled/impaired/ocularly interrupted (welcome to the world of light-based nonlethal capability sets); related/not the same. Wanna say "blinded" when talking about taking one in the face at 10m from a 250 mW laser with an NOHD of 1.4 kilometers, that turns your aqueous to hard-boiled egg-white before it has a chance to so much as touch your retinas, rock on. Wanna say "blinded" regarding some puny polychromatic light source measured in mere lumens, fine, just don't try to fit yourself for a halo over being too :internetcool: to use it correctly.

Shawn nailed it. The only way to be certain of one's light-sensitivity to different intensities to any degree of certainty is to get out there and LEARN it. It's gonna be different to different folks from a sheer physiological standpoint, which is why thinking max-possible lumens is moar bettah! is shakey, at best. I'm somewhat photosensitive and have damned good nighttime acuity, so just to add yet another wrinkle to things, the shape of the beam of of greater note to me than how much juice it's pushing. Thankfully, the manufacturers of note have figured this out BEFORE they started going gonzo (stipulated: at user demand) over raw light output.

Hence, I prefer to frame it in terms of "no less than."

Handgun, no less than 100 lumens, so that puts it at things like the CT LightGuard and Streamlight TLR-3 or similar. To push to 25m, outdoors, the 170 lumen X300 is a good beam (I like the DG switch, so SF it is...). More than that...I define that as the user having identified a specific need.

Carbine or other longarm, no less than 200 lumens, on the presumption that one anticipates needing usable light out to 50m outdoors. A SF G2X Tactical (meaning, single-mode switch, no freaking Rubik's Cube switchology...) in any one of several Impact Weapons components mounts (depending upon which forend you have on which to mount a light) will do that without breaking the bank for an AR; remote-switch Y/N is a combo of personal judgement and how much room on the forend you have. KISS rules. Shotguns...I know that there's options, but I'm not up on those capabilities and defer to others morfamiliar with those guns (pretty sure there's an 870-specific setup thread in Long Guns that may serve as a primer). More light than that, we're again talking about a specific identified need....

...which brings us back around to not knowing how to identify said specific needs ARE until one has shaken the concept out.

EDIT: Aha...! http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6352-upgrading-stock-Remington-870-Express-to-duty-grade-spec

Carbine options: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4447-carbine-light-placement

Zhurdan

03-07-2013, 12:00 PM

As with everything gun related, know what YOU need/want and actually practice with it.

+200 is too much for me, could work great for others, but I tend to have issues even driving at night with oncoming headlights.

I've often taken the slide off my pistol or taken the bolt out of my AR and ran a few scenarios in my house. No formal training, I'm itching for the day I can make a low light class. :D

Byron

03-07-2013, 02:47 PM

I'll take a DoN BUMED reference over anything Wikipedia has to say in terms of assigning a correct medical/physiological definition.
...
Blindness is a permanent effect
...
Such it is with the difference between blinded and dazzled/impaired/ocularly interrupted (welcome to the world of light-based nonlethal capability sets); related/not the same.
...
Wanna say "blinded" regarding some puny polychromatic light source measured in mere lumens, fine, just don't try to fit yourself for a halo over being too :internetcool: to use it correctly.
I really can't even believe this is still a matter of discussion. I'm not trying to be "internetcool" or "tactical" or anything of the sort.

Make as much fun as you want of the term "flash blindness," but it isn't just used on Wiki, nor is it in any way recent; it can be found in plenty of medical sources.

Would a peer-reviewed national medical journal satisfy you?

The Journal of the American Medical Association - 1963
Study of Photostress and Flash Blindness
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1161177

Or if you really want to insist on it coming from a military source, then so be it. They actually specifically referenced this "controversy" back in 1967:

...[this symposium] concentrated upon the temporary degradation of vision caused by bleaching of the visual pigments, such as rhodopsin and cyanolabe, chlorolabe and erythrolabe, and the effects that may follow that bleaching. Several people have indicated their dislike of the use of the term flash blindness in this connection, feeling that it is not real blindness, but only a temporary lowering of visual sensitivity; however, a better term has not been suggested.

Proceedings of the U.S. Army Natick Laboratories
Flash Blindness Symposium
Armed Forces-National Research Council Committee on Vision 1967
http://books.google.com/books/download/Proceedings_of_the_U_S_Army_Natick_labor.pdf?id=61 ArAAAAYAAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U2nws-OpU-DlVMk7_beNiwrPcQPpQ

Please give those researchers a call and let them know that their 1967 symposium was trying way too hard to be "internetcool" and that they're only allowed to utter the word "blind" when referring to braille readers.

As for your contention that such terminology should only be used when referring to 250 mW eye-melting lasers? CAPT Matthew Rings (Chief, Aerospace Ophthalmology - Eye Clinic, Naval Aerospace Medical Institute) apparently disagrees with you. In his presentation for the 2013 United States Naval Aeromedical Conference (http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/usnac2013/USNAC%202013%20Lectures/17JAN13%20LECTURE%206%20ADD%20Laser%20Exposures%20 in%20Aviation%20Update%20USNAC%202013%20FINAL[1].pdf), note his references to the risk of flash blindness from a 5 mW laser. You'll further note that the range for flash blindness risk is beyond the range for eye hazard, suggesting once again that this term is in no way relegated to melted eyeballs, but rather refers to a temporary phenomenon that doesn't require any damage to the eye.

Sparks2112

03-07-2013, 04:51 PM

I really can't even believe this is still a matter of discussion. I'm not trying to be "internetcool" or "tactical" or anything of the sort.

Make as much fun as you want of the term "flash blindness," but it isn't just used on Wiki, nor is it in any way recent; it can be found in plenty of medical sources.

Would a peer-reviewed national medical journal satisfy you?

The Journal of the American Medical Association - 1963
Study of Photostress and Flash Blindness
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1161177

Or if you really want to insist on it coming from a military source, then so be it. They actually specifically referenced this "controversy" back in 1967:

Proceedings of the U.S. Army Natick Laboratories
Flash Blindness Symposium
Armed Forces-National Research Council Committee on Vision 1967
http://books.google.com/books/download/Proceedings_of_the_U_S_Army_Natick_labor.pdf?id=61 ArAAAAYAAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U2nws-OpU-DlVMk7_beNiwrPcQPpQ

Please give those researchers a call and let them know that their 1967 symposium was trying way too hard to be "internetcool" and that they're only allowed to utter the word "blind" when referring to braille readers.

As for your contention that such terminology should only be used when referring to 250 mW eye-melting lasers? CAPT Matthew Rings (Chief, Aerospace Ophthalmology - Eye Clinic, Naval Aerospace Medical Institute) apparently disagrees with you. In his presentation for the 2013 United States Naval Aeromedical Conference (http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/usnac2013/USNAC%202013%20Lectures/17JAN13%20LECTURE%206%20ADD%20Laser%20Exposures%20 in%20Aviation%20Update%20USNAC%202013%20FINAL[1].pdf), note his references to the risk of flash blindness from a 5 mW laser. You'll further note that the range for flash blindness risk is beyond the range for eye hazard, suggesting once again that this term is in no way relegated to melted eyeballs, but rather refers to a temporary phenomenon that doesn't require any damage to the eye.

Remind me to never argue with you. ;)

JHC

03-07-2013, 08:01 PM

Remind me to never argue with you. ;)

Nice.

Dr. No

03-07-2013, 10:32 PM

I was a patrol guy, now I'm a full time swat guy. I have a 300, fury, 300U, and 2 cell scout on my rifle. The 300 has gone in the safe. The U and fury are prime time. The scout is woefully underpowered now. I'm considering mounting the fury on the rifle until the upgraded scout heads come out. The U has so much more throw that it reveals much more detail than the 300 ever could. I can more effectively discriminate targets because I can see them better. The other nice part is if I come into a room at a low ready, the splash from the U illuminates so much more of the room that I can effectively clear without having to move the light around. This instantly gives me more information. I also find that the more intense beam conceals my position better than the lower powered light - in force on force encounters, bad guys have a hard time looking into the light and therefore a harder time shooting at the light. This can only be a good thing.

I have gone from completely dark in the van to illuminating targets in a room with the U. I have not experienced 'flash blindness' nor found more lumens to be a detriment in any form or fashion.

If you think that you will ONLY use your light at 15 feet, you probably only need to practice shooting at that exact distance, right? Because nothing will ever happen closer or further than that? Come on ...

Dan_S

03-08-2013, 07:22 PM

I'm no expert on using a light on a carbine or pistol - in fact, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about in that regard, but I will address one comment I read regarding "blindness" from lights...

I'm very used to seeing in very dark places without external lighting sources. I have (apparently) good night vision. All I can say is that if you suddenly turn a light on when my eyes are adjusted to a dark place, I'm gonna have a hard time seeing stuff for a minute or two....

So, I don't think that it is a myth that you will be blinded by a light that is too bright...

Just my two cents worth (if that).

TCinVA

03-08-2013, 07:46 PM

Application is key here. The average joe isn't searching urban blight for crack heads. The average police deployment of a light isn't in a nice suburban home painted with pastels and festooned with mirrors that the lady of the house insists on having because they make the space look "bigger".

My EDC light is a Surefire E2E with an LED conversion. I think that's about 100 lumens...and it's fine for an EDC light. If I were I'm uniform, I'd want a more powerful light that throws a nice hotspot down range in case I had to go search the kind of place where people cook meth.

The human eye's physiology is well known...too much light and your night vision gets zapped into uselessness and will take some time to recharge. How much light it takes for you to see what you need to see, how much light it takes to wipe your night vision, and how long it takes you to recover some of that night vision will all vary from individual to individual...and will even vary for that individual based on a number of factors that change through their life.

We sometimes forget that we each see the world uniquely. Nobody else sees the world exactly as you do because nobody else is doing it with your hardware. Some experimentation and adaptation will be required.

Jay Cunningham

03-08-2013, 07:59 PM

TC applies common sense filter.

Sparks2112

03-08-2013, 08:37 PM

TC applies common sense filter.

I didn't think that was allowed on the interwebZ?

Dr. No

03-09-2013, 12:52 PM

The human eye's physiology is well known...too much light and your night vision gets zapped into uselessness and will take some time to recharge. How much light it takes for you to see what you need to see, how much light it takes to wipe your night vision, and how long it takes you to recover some of that night vision will all vary from individual to individual...and will even vary for that individual based on a number of factors that change through their life.

I hear people talk about this factor all the time and it's never made sense to me. If you're going to use white light to search, then what are you trying to "see" when you turn the light off?

For me, it's moving through a structure or around one ... if I need to actually get details about what is in that area, I have to use white light. Once I white light it, my vision doesn't go to complete blackness and then fade back in..... I can still see hallways, doorways, furniture, etc. If I need to see what is IN the couch, I'm not going to be able to see that clearly without white light regardless if I have used white light in the last five minutes or not.

I do agree, different equipment for different situations. The whole 'too much lumens is going to melt your face' is silly to me. Turning on most interior lights is just as bright as a 100 lumen light, but it has a lot more throw and dispersion because it's on the ceiling. 500 lumen reminds me more of a businesses fluorescent.

ToddG

03-09-2013, 02:34 PM

For me, it's moving through a structure or around one ... if I need to actually get details about what is in that area, I have to use white light. Once I white light it, my vision doesn't go to complete blackness and then fade back in..... I can still see hallways, doorways, furniture, etc. If I need to see what is IN the couch, I'm not going to be able to see that clearly without white light regardless if I have used white light in the last five minutes or not.

Just curious, but how old are you?

While I'm sure it varies even separate from age, I'm personally experiencing the effects of age in terms of my night vision. Whereas it used to come back quickly from less than direct light bursts to the eyeballs, now I will see afterglow spots for many seconds or even minutes depending on (a) how dark the environment is and (b) how bright the light was. Things that I used to take for granted regarding operating in the dark (which doesn't just mean shooting but driving, etc.) now no longer apply and I have to be much more cognizant about controlling my night vision and compensating for its loss.

I have absolutely blinded myself due to my own light (AMIS last year, popped my strobing 350 lumen light at a mirror about 10' away... literally couldn't see things mere inches from my face for many minutes in the dark). Odds are I wouldn't have recovered that much faster ten years ago, but the experience definitely made me realize how much my vision had changed.

And before anyone suggests them... here, thank you.
http://www.actclassy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/big-sunglasses-e1334598014139-296x300.jpg

DocGKR

03-09-2013, 04:30 PM

Spr1

03-09-2013, 06:09 PM

When Surefire 6P's first came out I thought they were a miracle. Now when comparing one to a Fury outside the 6P seems like holding up a candle.

Drang

03-09-2013, 07:40 PM

Pfft. You kids. I remember when Mini Mag Lights were considered to be blindingly bright.

Odin Bravo One

03-09-2013, 07:53 PM

Pfft. You kids. I remember when Mini Mag Lights were considered to be blindingly bright.

And mounting them to CAR 727 barrels with hose clamps..............

TCinVA

03-09-2013, 08:34 PM

I hear people talk about this factor all the time and it's never made sense to me. If you're going to use white light to search, then what are you trying to "see" when you turn the light off?

Because maybe when I was searching I stumbled upon a situation that's not really going to work well with my goal of continuing life functions and getting away from it without having a giant beacon advertising my exact location to said threats to my life functions is useful.

Maybe I've used some light to navigate to a position where I'm now in close proximity to a threat and perhaps they're in a bit more light than I am and it would be useful to have enough night vision left over to figure some stuff out about them without revealing my position just yet.

Etc.

Once the light goes on I may not have a reason to turn it off again. Then again, I may want the light on only momentarily because of the circumstances. If i decide it's to my advantage to turn the light off I'd like to avoid frying my natural night vision capabilities and being dependent upon it.

For me, it's moving through a structure or around one ... if I need to actually get details about what is in that area, I have to use white light. Once I white light it, my vision doesn't go to complete blackness and then fade back in..... I can still see hallways, doorways, furniture, etc. If I need to see what is IN the couch, I'm not going to be able to see that clearly without white light regardless if I have used white light in the last five minutes or not.

That might be true for your vision under a specific set of lighting conditions. It may be completely different for someone else's hardware under different lighting conditions. Lighting isn't static, nor is the way we perceive it.

The whole 'too much lumens is going to melt your face' is silly to me.

That's more in reference to a light's ability to zap your night vision. Flashbulb effect, etc. It may not literally melt your face, but a sufficiently bright burst of light will zero out your ability to see unassisted in the dark. In some circumstances this could be no big deal. In others, it could be a deal breaker.

Maple Syrup Actual

03-10-2013, 01:29 AM

In some circumstances this could be no big deal. In others, it could be a deal breaker.

I think it's equally fair to say that about insufficient light as well, however. In most cases, only having 100 or 200 or 300 lumens could be no big deal; in others, it could be a deal breaker.

Without knowing the specific problems you'll need a light to solve, there's no way to know exactly what amount of light you will need. The light you gamble on will be a compromise no matter what; people will just have to use their best guesses as to where that compromise point should be.

The low light training I have done has been geared towards using the corona of the light to identify targets before getting the gun up and on target; in those cases I have not found 500 lumen lights to be debilitating as my vision is focused ahead while my light is pointing downwards, unless I get an actual threat target, in which case I'm fine with the blast of light on target anyway.

But I will be the first to admit that I have only done low-light training with a couple of instructors.

Tamara

03-10-2013, 09:06 AM

Nobody in this thread has yet said "my light is a weapon." How can I be sure this is really the internet?

ToddG

03-10-2013, 10:01 AM

Nobody in this thread has yet said "my light is a weapon."

Every tool is a weapon - if you hold it right. -- Ani DiFranco, My IQ
http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/21/4134/92843.png

Tamara

03-10-2013, 10:30 AM

Dude, don't do that to someone with stitches in her face. Laughing too hard hurts.

Re: The "how many lumens is enough" question, I've been toying with it recently, what with needing a light for the new shotgun, so I'm following this thread with interest...

ToddG

03-10-2013, 12:35 PM

Dude, don't do that to someone with stitches in her face. Laughing too hard hurts.

As long as you're still laughing!

orionz06

03-10-2013, 12:44 PM

I have a box full of the latest and greatest face melters and for my uses none of them are too bright.

Steve S.

03-10-2013, 05:51 PM

When I had a 60 lumen light, I thought 100 would be better.

When we got 100 lumens, I wanted 200.

When we received the 200's, I desired 300.

When we bought the 300's, I lusted for 500.

Now that we have the 500's, I am thinking 1000 would be pretty good.

In short, I want MORE.

I have yet to find a situation, inside or outside, where I had too much light.

I'm with the good Doctor on this one...

Pfft. You kids. I remember when Mini Mag Lights were considered to be blindingly bright.

Not to sound like a jerk, but it begs the question... how much of this "too much light!" is a case of someone not having the latest and greatest?

I don't know how many have compared the X300 to the Ultra; the Scout to the Fury, or the new TLR series to the old. I've compared them, and none of the 500 lumen lights are lasers. I was just comparing the X300 to the Ultra last night in a suburban home with fresh paint. The Ultra has about the same amount of spot as the X300 with a lot more spill. I LOVE it. Handgun or long gun, my weapons are getting Ultras from here on out.

I first seen the Ultra in a real setting at a no light class. Everyone seen the advantage to the extra spill and longer throw for threat identification past 15 yards. I was still worried about "flash blindness" until my units finally arrived. Outside of a direct flash to a mirror, I'm loving the extra light - particularly the spill. It lights up all those dark corners a X300 Standard would miss.

As someone pointed out already, 500 lumens isn't a lot of light - it's just a lot of light out of a pistol mounted light when compared to what's on the market. But I strongly suggest everyone try the Ultra before writing it off as too powerful.

Drang

03-10-2013, 05:58 PM

Pfft. You kids. I remember when Mini Mag Lights were considered to be blindingly bright.

And mounting them to CAR 727 barrels with hose clamps..............

Armorer got pissed. Top, who was a good ol' boy despite being an MI Geek, accused me of setting up to jacklight the commies.

Jay Cunningham

03-10-2013, 06:19 PM

A "no light class" isn't a real setting.

Cops go into other people's houses all the time.

I don't do that.

Steve S.

03-10-2013, 06:33 PM

A "no light class" isn't a real setting.

Cops go into other people's houses all the time.

I don't do that.

By "real setting" I mean outside of SHOT Show, local gun shop, etc.

What would you interpret a "real setting" to be, Jay?

JodyH

03-10-2013, 07:52 PM

TCinVA

03-11-2013, 01:59 PM

Apparently the lumen rating on my KX2C LED conversion is 200 lumens...which isn't bad for a light that size.

Looking that up, of course, led to some websites...one of which had Some of the new Surefires in stock and on sale. So now I've got 350 bucks worth of new Surefire hotness on the way. All thanks to this thread.

What I'm trying to say, here, is that you people suck.

rudy99

03-11-2013, 03:07 PM

As someone who was on the verge of purchasing a X300 when the X300U comes out, this lumens issue drives me up the wall. The $15-20 price difference isn't high enough to make the decision for me and the MOAR (thanks rob_s) side of me thinks going with the X300 is like using a "low" speed on a vacuum (when you just don't want to clean that good). I heard a bump in the night a few days back and used my G2 LED to search the house and felt it was up to the task. I guess I need to take the Fury off my rifle to see if I can blind (yeah, I said "blind", but not the "I just looked inside the Ark" face-melt type of "blind") myself when it is pitch black in the house.

DaZe831

03-11-2013, 03:09 PM

I got two TLR-1's and they work great. Plenty of light. Might pick up the x300 Ultra, heard good things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TCinVA

03-11-2013, 05:46 PM

rudy99

03-11-2013, 09:24 PM

FWIW, I bought the Ultra.

I'll probably do the same. While there is "buy once, cry once", there is also "buy once, realize another quality items would be better for your needs, cry, buy again, cry again", or something like that. $200+ is a lot to spend without being sure (for me). Kind of like thinking you'd like to run a hammer fired pistol and then dropping $1,000 on an H&K rig.

Odin Bravo One

03-11-2013, 09:28 PM

Can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious for low light/no light situations........

I mean, if we are serious......and I mean truly serious, wouldn't we all drop the $11k for 15's and an ATPIAL?

Nothing acts as a better signature reduction tool than no light at all. And if it is dark dark, or simply applied properly........it can turn a gunfight into a shooting in short order.

Yea..........

I don't have that kind of money either......but for white lights......once Sure-Fire figures out how to put the sun into a WML or even a good sized hand held.........I'm there.

Steve S.

03-12-2013, 12:40 AM

A "real setting" to me is my bedroom at 3 am on a moonless night when awakened from a deep sleep.
Then wandering around my house with my gun and light combination.
Actually it would be my gun, light/laser combination (Viridian C5L).

I've found that the 100 lumen LED light is more than sufficient for exploring every nook, cranny, closet and hallway in my house.
At no time do I feel disadvantaged by having "only" 100 lumens.
Fact is, when I break out my Fenix 850 lumen flashlight and turn it on under those same pitch black, eyes fully dilated conditions it takes me several seconds to "see" anything except bright white.

To add fuel to this discussion, I've found that when it comes time to shoot in diminished light conditions the green laser is a HUGE advantage.
I've found the 100 lumen white LED light, bright green laser setup to be the perfect handgun mounted "home defense" combination.

:cool:

That sounds like a personal situation. :D

If everyone wants to go back and read my initial post, I referred to seeing the Ultra for the first time in a real setting AS MEANING in out in the wild.

As for lasers, they're good for night vision and compromised shooting positions. My house is pretty clear of both. If I had NVG... I'd get the new Surefire X300 / X400 Ultra V series. If I had a lot of stuff around to create compromised shooting positions, I'd roll with an X400 Ultra. If I have to choose between a 100 lumen weapon light with laser, and a 500 lumen weapon light without laser (or even 200... or whatever the X300 was) - I'm choosing the higher powered weapon light. For me personally, it allows me more advantage than a laser. If it works for you... rock on! You can have the best of both worlds with the new X400 Ultra though. ;)

Apparently the lumen rating on my KX2C LED conversion is 200 lumens...which isn't bad for a light that size.

Looking that up, of course, led to some websites...one of which had Some of the new Surefires in stock and on sale. So now I've got 350 bucks worth of new Surefire hotness on the way. All thanks to this thread.

What I'm trying to say, here, is that you people suck.

I'm really willing to bet you will love the X300 Ultra, brother. It's not some death ray of light. The added spill is MUCH better though.

Can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious for low light/no light situations........

I mean, if we are serious......and I mean truly serious, wouldn't we all drop the $11k for 15's and an ATPIAL?

Nothing acts as a better signature reduction tool than no light at all. And if it is dark dark, or simply applied properly........it can turn a gunfight into a shooting in short order.

Yea..........

I don't have that kind of money either......but for white lights......once Sure-Fire figures out how to put the sun into a WML or even a good sized hand held.........I'm there.

I would love some ninja toys. Maybe one day. Until then... all I get is this lousy flashlight..... :(

So I'm getting the best lousy flashlight I can!

Oh, and I'm stealing that line about SureFire putting the sun into a WML. Good way of putting it.

TCinVA

03-12-2013, 06:31 AM

I mean, if we are serious......and I mean truly serious, wouldn't we all drop the $11k for 15's and an ATPIAL?

Way ahead of you:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BBsPxKDdXas/TXZNLVOjfdI/AAAAAAAAD9g/biwypaUfevA/s1600/a.bmp

ffhounddog

03-12-2013, 07:02 AM

PVS14, Laser Dynamics CQBL, surefire M952, and a Gemtech Can means low flash and I can see you :).

In the desert there is such thing as too much light in a small house. Happened with a handheld that a guy had. We ran M951s on our M4's. It was enough even outside. Granted I am not blasting a light at 100m I am probally just going to look though my NODs.

Zhurdan

03-12-2013, 08:12 AM

PVS-14 inbound! Four weeks for delivery doesn't sound like much, but this really has been the longest four weeks EVARRRR!!1!one!!

Odin Bravo One

03-12-2013, 02:09 PM

PVS14, Laser Dynamics CQBL, surefire M952, and a Gemtech Can means low flash and I can see you :).

Perhaps.....but my signature reduction tactics don't suck either.........so not likely.

I sure hope you didn't pay with real money for 14's...........

Zhurdan

03-12-2013, 02:17 PM

Perhaps.....but my signature reduction tactics don't suck either.........so not likely.

I sure hope you didn't pay with real money for 14's...........

Care to elaborate please?

Dan_S

03-12-2013, 02:34 PM

Care to elaborate please?

This makes two of us then...

TCinVA

03-12-2013, 02:42 PM

Care to elaborate please?

While it's not impossible to acquire NV equipment legally, it's not exactly easy to do either given the restrictions on it. It's not unheard of for people to try and sell Uncle Sam's property and make a buck...and it's also not unheard of for the criminal investigation divisions of the various services to inform the buyer of a piece of equipment that they're in possession of stolen goods. It's happened with a ton of optics and bits of body armor over the years and generally it's been handled amicably by the branches of law enforcement dealing with the problem.

With protected items like modern generation night vision equipment I would imagine that they would be somewhat less charitable. At a minimum you end up out whatever money you bought the stolen item with. At a maximum, you end up in a cell.

If you're actually buying a PVS-14 (or any other modern generation NV equipment), make darn sure it's coming from a legit source. If you're on a police department and you had to order on department letterhead, odds are it's a legit source. Otherwise...

Zhurdan

03-12-2013, 02:46 PM

While it's not impossible to acquire NV equipment legally, it's not exactly easy to do either given the restrictions on it. It's not unheard of for people to try and sell Uncle Sam's property and make a buck...and it's also not unheard of for the criminal investigation divisions of the various services to inform the buyer of a piece of equipment that they're in possession of stolen goods. It's happened with a ton of optics and bits of body armor over the years and generally it's been handled amicably by the branches of law enforcement dealing with the problem.

With protected items like modern generation night vision equipment I would imagine that they would be somewhat less charitable. At a minimum you end up out whatever money you bought the stolen item with. At a maximum, you end up in a cell.

If you're actually buying a PVS-14 (or any other modern generation NV equipment), make darn sure it's coming from a legit source. If you're on a police department and you had to order on department letterhead, odds are it's a legit source. Otherwise...

TNVC.com is a stand up company that does in fact, sell to civilians, by every account I've read and researched. They do have items that are restricted to law enforcement and military, but they are noted as such. The PVS-14 that I am buying is assembled by TNVC using L3 tubes. It is not stolen military equipment.

***ETA***

Wyoming

Night Hunting: Allowed, predators may be hunted at night on private property only (not allowed on public property) with written permission of the landowner. Spotlights may be used for nighttime predator hunting.
Night Vision: Allowed, per information of the WY Game & Fish Dept website: Chapter 2 - Sec. 2(d) of Commission Regulations states: "Artificial Light means any man-made light or lighting device which projects a light visible to the unaided eye outside of the device, or any battery-powered device that provides an enhanced ability to see in the dark ." Additional information of the website states: Wyoming law prohibits the use of artificial light to hunt any wildlife, except that predators may be taken by aid of artificial light if on private land and written permission from the landowner is obtained. Above information verified with Wyoming DNR Law Enforcement.
Website: http://gf.state.wy.us/index.asp
Phone: 307-777-4600

TCinVA

03-12-2013, 02:48 PM

TNVC.com is a stand up company that does in fact, sell to civilians, by every account I've read and researched.

They're one of the very few legit sources. I wouldn't have a problem buying from them.

Steve S.

03-12-2013, 03:35 PM

I'm thinking Sean is making a joke about how expensive they are, and how the government buys his. By "real money" he means the money spent on equipment outside of our day jobs, for which we pay the bill personally.

If I'm tracking wrong, I'm sure Sean will let me know...

ETA:

PVS-14 Gen 3's are good to go. The PEQ may be a problem, but Insight has a new unit coming out for a very competitive price, as well as TNVC's Civi legal IR painters on the market.

This is legal to purchase, just not legal to export.
http://tnvc.com/shop/anpvs-14-milspec-gen3-pinnacle-special-forces-kit/

This is an example of something civilians can't purchase. They mention in multiple areas that it's for LE/MIL only.
http://tnvc.com/shop/atpial-anpeq-15-advanced-target-pointerilluminator-aiming-laser/

This is the civi legal DBAL.
http://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-d2-class-1-ir-laser/

Here are some pics from SHOT of the CIVL - Insight's new civi legal IR laser. The visible and IR laser are slaved - which is cool. The mount for the MRDS is kind of stupid IMO. Word is price will stay under $500. (If linking to other forums isn't allowed, please delete. Info is scarce on this unit at this time.)
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=121737

Zhurdan

03-12-2013, 03:39 PM

Tell that to my payroll department when they hand out bonus checks whilst I'm sitting in front of an internet connection!!! :D

Definitely a "want" vs. a "need", but the itch needed scratched. :)

Odin Bravo One

03-12-2013, 05:40 PM

Tamara

03-12-2013, 06:02 PM

I'm probably just a NVG snob......but they are way expensive for 20 year old technology and capability. I couldn't do it. But I buy all kinds of shit other people couldn't justify either...

I know that Frank W. James sold a mess of buzzguns and turned the money into NVGs and thermal optics and looks set to spend his retirement years happily murdering hogs by the sounder in the dead of night. I guess it's all in what you want to use it for. ;)

Dan_S

03-12-2013, 06:14 PM

I'm probably just a NVG snob......but they are way expensive for 20 year old technology and capability. I couldn't do it. But I buy all kinds of shit other people couldn't justify either..........I actually buy a lot of shit I have to think long and hard about how to justify when the wife asks what I needed it for..........

That is understandable, but...

I don't have ten thousand (or more) to throw at any of the "newer" or "better" stuff, and I'm not going to be issued any NV equipment, so wouldn't the PVS-14 - even if it is overpriced for what it is - be a better option than *no* NV equipment....??

I've used NV (PVS-14 at that) just enough to know that it would fill a pretty big gap in my current personal inventory, and the most affordable option for me was a 14 through TNVC. If there's a better option out there, I'm all ears...

Dr. No

03-12-2013, 08:03 PM

Just curious, but how old are you?

While I'm sure it varies even separate from age, I'm personally experiencing the effects of age in terms of my night vision. Whereas it used to come back quickly from less than direct light bursts to the eyeballs, now I will see afterglow spots for many seconds or even minutes depending on (a) how dark the environment is and (b) how bright the light was. Things that I used to take for granted regarding operating in the dark (which doesn't just mean shooting but driving, etc.) now no longer apply and I have to be much more cognizant about controlling my night vision and compensating for its loss.

I have absolutely blinded myself due to my own light (AMIS last year, popped my strobing 350 lumen light at a mirror about 10' away... literally couldn't see things mere inches from my face for many minutes in the dark). Odds are I wouldn't have recovered that much faster ten years ago, but the experience definitely made me realize how much my vision had changed.

And before anyone suggests them... here, thank you.
http://www.actclassy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/big-sunglasses-e1334598014139-296x300.jpg

Hah that is awesome :)

I'm in my 30's and I've had eye surgery in the past. I didn't think about retinal recovery, to be honest.

I think no matter how old you are, smashing your rods and cones with 350 lumens in a mirror is definitely going to bring on some fade vs. the splash from the light going the other way!

Dr. No

03-12-2013, 08:04 PM

Dr. No

03-12-2013, 08:11 PM

Because maybe when I was searching I stumbled upon a situation that's not really going to work well with my goal of continuing life functions and getting away from it without having a giant beacon advertising my exact location to said threats to my life functions is useful.

Maybe I've used some light to navigate to a position where I'm now in close proximity to a threat and perhaps they're in a bit more light than I am and it would be useful to have enough night vision left over to figure some stuff out about them without revealing my position just yet.

Etc.

Once the light goes on I may not have a reason to turn it off again. Then again, I may want the light on only momentarily because of the circumstances. If i decide it's to my advantage to turn the light off I'd like to avoid frying my natural night vision capabilities and being dependent upon it.

That might be true for your vision under a specific set of lighting conditions. It may be completely different for someone else's hardware under different lighting conditions. Lighting isn't static, nor is the way we perceive it.

That's more in reference to a light's ability to zap your night vision. Flashbulb effect, etc. It may not literally melt your face, but a sufficiently bright burst of light will zero out your ability to see unassisted in the dark. In some circumstances this could be no big deal. In others, it could be a deal breaker.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. :) If you are searching for a threat, once you find one you are going to need to effectively evaluate it and ensure it is a threat... or at least one you are willing to engage. If you need to eval the threat, you are going to need to illuminate it. If you illuminate it, you will then experience whatever negative effects you get from using said light.

You can play the 'what if' game with light all you want, I think. Honestly, my sentiments echo those of DocGKR's ... the more lumens I get in this world, the more I want. This comes from conducting numerous missions in the dark, in the day, going from light to dark and going from dark to light - all in locations I've never been in before and have to navigate. I've even done training in pitch black basements. If it's so dark that when you touch off 100 lumens you can't see crap ... it probably is a place where you can't see anyway!

Or ..... as a compromise to your position - put your finger over the bezel if you're going to nav with it. That will reduce its output and save your vision. Yes, I'm playing with big boy rules here.. You must be very aware of where your hand is relative to the bangy end. Then again, if you're using the light to nav you probably aren't pointing it at a threat.

I've found now that I have the 300U on my pistol and a scout on my rifle ... that I am anxiously awaiting the scout bezel upgrade on my rifle.

Tamara

03-12-2013, 08:38 PM

I don't have ten thousand (or more) to throw at any of the "newer" or "better" stuff, and I'm not going to be issued any NV equipment, so wouldn't the PVS-14 - even if it is overpriced for what it is - be a better option than *no* NV equipment....??

A PVS-14? Yes. But not all night vision equipment is better than none at all under every circumstance...

True story:

Many moons ago, back in '02 or so, I picked up a set of crappy Russkie Gen 1 NODs on a lark. I guess they're better than nothing, provided that it's pretty dark, but not too dark, and you're not trying to run around too much. You could maybe use them if you were sitting still watching a game trail or something.

One night a few years later a friend brought home a PVS-7 from work to play with in the back forty. I dragged my old Russkie NODs out for a side-by-side comparison. Of course there wasn't any comparison at all...

Anyhow, it was a pretty dark night that night, and as we got down under the cover of some trees near the lake, the "Gen 1" Russian gear started having a hard time with the deeper shadows under the pines. I turned on the "IR illuminator" on my goggles...

"Uh, I don't think you would ever want to do that in real life," said my friend.

"Why not?"

"Because there's a really bright light between your eyes and... whoa!"

"What?"

"Well, I flipped up my goggles and that light? It's not just in IR. There's a dim red LED right in the middle of your forehead."

Steve S.

03-12-2013, 09:48 PM

A PVS-14? Yes. But not all night vision equipment is better than none at all under every circumstance...

True story:

Many moons ago, back in '02 or so, I picked up a set of crappy Russkie Gen 1 NODs on a lark. I guess they're better than nothing, provided that it's pretty dark, but not too dark, and you're not trying to run around too much. You could maybe use them if you were sitting still watching a game trail or something.

One night a few years later a friend brought home a PVS-7 from work to play with in the back forty. I dragged my old Russkie NODs out for a side-by-side comparison. Of course there wasn't any comparison at all...

Anyhow, it was a pretty dark night that night, and as we got down under the cover of some trees near the lake, the "Gen 1" Russian gear started having a hard time with the deeper shadows under the pines. I turned on the "IR illuminator" on my goggles...

"Uh, I don't think you would ever want to do that in real life," said my friend.

"Why not?"

"Because there's a really bright light between your eyes and... whoa!"

"What?"

"Well, I flipped up my goggles and that light? It's not just in IR. There's a dim red LED right in the middle of your forehead."

Some of the early NVG were more "close to infrared" and slightly visible. I'm going to wager most of these early units have "shit the bed" - for lack of a better term.

Oh how technology has changed....