2 Idiots and a Staged Murder Attempt - WWYD?

[RoyGBiv]

Watch how people react to a (staged) attempted murder

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/watch-people-react-staged-attempted-murder-172134615.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo6Jzh7SHRA

[jetfire]

My favorite was the lady with the flowers wailing the hell out of the one dude. Right idea, wrong tool.

[JV_]

I wonder how many called 911?

[DocGKR]

They are quite lucky neither was injured...

[Mitchell, Esq.]

They are quite lucky neither was injured...

It was not luck, it was good planning & location.

[JodyH]

The one guy would be missing teeth from a Doc Marten steel toe to the face, followed up with a full ground and pound... if he was lucky.
Unlucky = shot dead

[jetfire]

I honestly go back and forth on this - I mean, I feel like walking into a situation like that is a Kobayahsi Maru. I can say without hesitation that one thing that is not happening is I'm not getting in an elevator with two dudes trying to kill each other. I'm also not super hot and bothered to get all up in someone else's fight; but at the same time I don't particularly feel like watching a dude get killed either.

[peterb]

I liked the fire extinguisher. They're lucky(planned?) that it was CO2 instead of dry chemical.

[Savage Hands]

They are quite lucky neither was injured...


Exactly!

[SecondsCount]

The guy at 0:46 had the right idea. He looked like military material.

[JM Campbell]

Must have been in NYC......wait it couldn't be.

I hope these gents don't try the experiment in a gun friendly state, might not end up well for one of them.

[TGS]

I can't get over the guy sitting there recording it. F'ing filth. It's one thing to be in shock, or just not know what to do and stand around as a useless excuse for a human life; it's another to make a conscious decision to record what appears to be a murder on your cell phone camera. If he helped, that'd be admirable. If he dialed 911, it'd be expected. If he ran away, it'd be human. But to record it? That's gotta be the ultimate example of how disconnected our society is today.

Who the hell raises these people?

[TCinVA]

The interesting bit to me is the reactions people have. They seem to fall into three categories:

1. Run the hell away
2. Do something
3. Paralysis

Option number 1 is smart from a personal survival perspective. If that dude is trying to strangle the other dude, then he's probably going to be unable to get to me if I get the hell away from here.

Option number 3 is to be expected...people lingering around a dangerous situation out of sheer mental inertia. These are the people who will die in a real disaster.

It's option number 2 that I found most fascinating. Note that the people who decided to do something were doing "something" that was, for the most part, exceptionally passive. Think about what they believe they are confronting: A dude trying to strangle another dude to death. Take the older gentleman who gets in there like he's breaking up a tiff between a couple of toddlers. It's half-hearted. Not in the sense that the people involved didn't really want to stop what they were seeing, because I'm sure they did. They just didn't have the ability to flip the switch and do something sufficiently violent that it actually fixed the problem. They weren't really committed to stopping that dude.

If you're being attacked, this is the "help" you are likely to receive. If someone is choking you to death you don't want fire extinguisher dude riding to your rescue.

A while back there was this horrific story:



Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.

Investigators on Sunday were trying to establish the relationship between the suspect and the child they say he killed Saturday night. The Stanislaus County coroner said the boy appeared to be between 1 and 2 years old based on his size, according to county sheriff's deputy Royjindar Singh.

"It's been a long night of wondering, 'Why?' — not only for the officers and the passers-by who stopped and tried to help out, but for anyone. Why would somebody do this?" Singh said.

Singh said the coroner does not plan to confirm the identities of the suspect and victim until Monday. Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.

The suspect had a child's car seat in the back of his four-door pickup truck. The truck caught the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m. Saturday because it was stopped in the two-lane road facing the wrong direction, Singh said.


As they got closer, the couple saw the man brutally beating the toddler behind his truck and throwing the child on the ground, according to Singh. Two or three other cars stopped, an unusual number to be passing through the remote area surrounded by a dairy, a cow pasture, a cornfield and a farmhouse, he said.

"What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. "They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

A sheriff's helicopter responding to emergency calls from the area landed in a cow pasture at 10:19 p.m. carrying a Modesto police officer who shot the man to death after he refused an order to stop beating the child, Singh said.

Paramedics tried to resuscitate the toddler, who was not breathing when they arrived. The boy was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No children within the dead boy's age range have been reported kidnapped or missing in Stanislaus County, Singh said.

The incident happened on Bradbury Road about 10 miles west of Turlock, a city located about halfway between Sacramento and Fresno.


At the time people wondered how a bunch of bystanders failed to stop a dude from beating a toddler so badly that the poor little tike's remains weren't even recognizable as human anymore. The video shows the answer.

If you're going to intervene, then by golly you'd better be prepared to go all in. On another site someone posted a story about the Miami Face-Eating zombie dude and one of the members commented on how the man continued to eat the face of his victim after being shot a couple of times. I responded with:



Well, to be fair, somebody who has decided that they're going to eat another person's face has decided on some important stuff. It's not the sort of thing one does haphazardly. You're either eating face or you're not. There's no half-way on that.


Those who would intervene to stop an act of criminal violence could stand to learn a lesson from Mr. Face-Eater.

[peterb]

If someone's beating a toddler, it's pretty clear who the attacker is. Two adult males -- how do you know who's the bad guy? Is the guy who appears to be winning the original attacker? Or is it self-defense?

Immediately going "all in" with a violent response has its own risks, especially if that includes using lethal force. Some sort of escalation might be smarter.

And I disagree that filming is a bad thing. He's documenting a crime in progress and making it possible to identify the attacker. Not as good as helping, but better than running away or doing nothing.

[ford.304]

So from the actual experts here - what's the correct thing to do? It is a messy situation, in close quarters, with a slightly less than clear bad guy... but if he's being choked, no one else is going to get there in time to make a difference. Try to put on your cop voice, draw, and tell them to both separate and wait for the cops? Pepper spray? What do you try?

[JodyH]

Not an "expert" by any stretch of the imagination.
My initial gut reaction would be to kick the strangler in the face to shut down the immediate danger to life (heel straight kick to the nose/forehead or Muay Thai side kick to the neck/ear, not a steel toe NFL kickoff kick to the teeth).
Its easier to sort the situation out once both parties are "neutralized" (for lack of a better term).
You'll have a few seconds to assess while "A" is watching tweetie birds circle his head and "B" is gasping for air.
Third party intervention is a crap-sandwich.

[David Armstrong]

So from the actual experts here - what's the correct thing to do? It is a messy situation, in close quarters, with a slightly less than clear bad guy... but if he's being choked, no one else is going to get there in time to make a difference. Try to put on your cop voice, draw, and tell them to both separate and wait for the cops? Pepper spray? What do you try?
Don't know about being an expert, but my cold, calculating self is going to just wait for the next elevator while I call the police. I intervened in enough of these things when I was paid to do so that Jody's "crap sandwich" seems an understatement. Nowadays I'm just not getting too involved unless it is me or mine that is in trouble. My main issue these days is to get home at the end of the day without any additial damage. My daughter has expressed the idea that she does not want to attend my premature funeral, and I'd like to see the grandbabies grow up for a while. I'll call the professionals and I'll let the involved parties know the police are on the way, but that is about it for me.

[ford.304]

Don't know about being an expert, but my cold, calculating self is going to just wait for the next elevator while I call the police. I intervened in enough of these things when I was paid to do so that Jody's "crap sandwich" seems an understatement. Nowadays I'm just not getting too involved unless it is me or mine that is in trouble. My main issue these days is to get home at the end of the day without any additial damage. My daughter has expressed the idea that she does not want to attend my premature funeral, and I'd like to see the grandbabies grow up for a while. I'll call the professionals and I'll let the involved parties know the police are on the way, but that is about it for me.

I almost added this - I understand that there is a strong argument for getting the hell away and calling 911, from a personal survival standpoint. That said, I imagine that a lot of people would have a really hard time living the idea that a guy got murdered in front of them and all they did was call for help. So if you've made the (possibly foolhardy) decision to intervene... what next?

[Al T.]

So if you've made the (possibly foolhardy) decision to intervene... what next?

Feet. Kick'em both into the corner, kick'em if they try to get up. Wait for cops.

Years* ago, there was a story about an early morning dog walker hearing a lady in distress. He comes to her aid. She is tied to a tree being raped. Our trusty hero draws his gun and shoots the bad guy. As he unties the lady, she starts yelling "Why did you shoot my husband?". Seems they were frolicking and having some fantasy play. Oops.






*I've read this somewhere, but don't recall where.

[ford.304]

Feet. Kick'em both into the corner, kick'em if they try to get up. Wait for cops.

Years* ago, there was a story about an early morning dog walker hearing a lady in distress. He comes to her aid. She is tied to a tree being raped. Our trusty here draws his gun and shoots the bad guy. As he unties the lady, she starts yelling "Why did you shoot my husband?". Seems they were frolicking and having some fantasy play. Oops.






*I've read this somewhere, but don't recall where.

Yeah, straight up "Shoot the guy who's doing the choking" sounds like a horrible idea.

[TAZ]

I certainly hope that if I was in the process of getting killed or my daughter was getting raped people would show more concern than getting home at the end of the day. However, I can tolerate the reluctance of some to do anything other than dial 911. The people who appear to be nonchalantly walking away need to be cleansed from the gene pool IMO.

From my states standpoint it would not be difficult to articulate a reasonable fear for death or serious injury to the choking victim. As such legally I could put a round in the choker's head. My first reaction however would be to do my best Lionel Messi impersonation and kick the ever living shit out of the chokers head.

I wonder what kind of waivers the actors have to sign before doing one of these stunts. The risk of getting pummeled or even killed has got to be high. Even in pussified locales you could draw the short stick and find the one metrosexual hipster with anger issues.

[Al T.]

Taz, I think that was the guy at .46. IMHO, looked like he was wearing ACUs and dove right in. :D

[TCinVA]

There are a ton of what ifs when it comes to intervening in someone else's assault/attempted murder/murder. Reluctance to get involved in someone else's mess is certainly understandable and in many cases its the smart decision.

...but if you are going to get involved in a situation where an aggressor is using lethal force against a perceived victim, you should probably bring your A game. If he's willing to strangle that dude to death, what is he willing to do to you if you try to use force to stop him? If I'm not terribly interested in stopping the aggressive action in front of me, that's one thing.

If I am, and I'm keenly interested in protecting myself from death or grave injury in the process of stopping something like this, then it's not really wise to pussy foot around with it.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't intervene in a situation where you are witnessing lethal force being used against a helpless person. I'm just saying if you do make the decision you're going to stop what's transpiring then be ready to do what is necessary.

Who is more likely to get compliance from a hostile third party, the guy who goes into it like he's breaking up a toddler fight or the guy who appears ready and able to end somebody right then and there?

It's possible to respond with too much aggression in defense of a third party...but I think the biggest problem most are likely to present is too little, endangering themselves or not being effective at stopping the problem.

If I see two dudes brawling I'm not likely to get involved. If I see someone trying to choke my friend to death I don't give two hoots what transpired before the moment I laid eyes on the situation...I'm going to fix it. Now.

[JFK]

Choker would get a heal to the head followed by some defensive display. His move after that.

This reminds me of a show I thought was the stupidest idea every. I think it was called Fear. It had Shannon Doherty as a host. They would take people out, set them up and scare the bejesus out of them. Every show was a "shoot" situation.

[David Armstrong]

If he's willing to strangle that dude to death, what is he willing to do to you if you try to use force to stop him?
That is sort of the way I look at it. If he is using deadly force already against somebody else, I should probably assume he is willing to continue to use deadly force against me. Seems like most of the "involvement" responses here are based on everything going right. I'm cynical enough to believe that most won't go right and that instead they will go very wrong.

If I see two dudes brawling I'm not likely to get involved. If I see someone trying to choke my friend to death I don't give two hoots what transpired before the moment I laid eyes on the situation...I'm going to fix it.
That's my view. Stangers? Sorry, but I fail to see why your life is more important than mine. Friends and family? Yeah, fix it in whatever manner works best.

[Bigguy]

Here's where my chauvinistic tendencies kick in. A healthy male, non friend or relative, my age or younger I feel can take care of himself as well as I can. He can make the same decision I have to arm himself, and stay fit enough to protect himself. A woman, child, or physically disabled person has a claim on my protection as well as I am able to render it. (This is strictly my belief that my creator expects this of me. I don't base this paradigm on any understanding of law.)
The example in the elevator set up was extreme. One person was down and the overwhelming evidence was that the other was attempting murder. That pretty well rules out him being a police officer. (At least I hope so.) In the heat of the moment I'm not sure what I would have done. With a little time to think about it, I think I would have ordered him to release the apparent victim. If he failed to comply, I'd have kicked him as hard as I could in the face hoping to incapacitate him. I'd have watched the supposed victim closely to make sure he didn't attack me, or the guy I've kicked. If possible, drag the chocking victim out of the elevator, keep the apparent assailant on the elevator and hit a button sending him off to another floor. Hopefully this buys me enough time to call for help, or simply get the heck out of the area.
Another factor would be whether or not I'm alone. I'll take a risk if I'm by myself that I won't take if my wife, kids, or grandkids are with me.

[JodyH]

Reminds me of the Canadian train where the one guy beat the other one to death (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/12/31/edmonton-lrt-victim-dies.html), while everyone else either watched or bailed out at the first stop.

I'm a Darwin kind of guy, but there's no way I could stand around and watch a murder without intervening.