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danhock1
03-03-2013, 12:47 AM
I am looking for any and all teaching and training ideas for at home. Laser,video games or anything that can help a new handgun owner learn and practice without going to the range or use of live ammo. It's gotten so expensive to have all the ammo you need for training and still have some for when its really needed. I need ideas to chose from to take some of the money out of the issue and still get some aiming and racking skills put to use. HELP!!

Keebsley
03-03-2013, 01:29 AM
You're still going to be spending some cash but the initial cost is different than the cost of ammo. Any of the laser devices, a SIRT pistol, a Blue Gun, a Bladetech barrel insert, etc. Add a shot timer as well. Training DVD's or a subscription to Panteo etc. Everything all costs money so it's a matter of how much you're willing to spend. I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people that will chime in but those are the easiest and quickest things that come to mind.

Nephrology
03-03-2013, 09:40 AM
I am looking for any and all teaching and training ideas for at home. Laser,video games or anything that can help a new handgun owner learn and practice without going to the range or use of live ammo. It's gotten so expensive to have all the ammo you need for training and still have some for when its really needed. I need ideas to chose from to take some of the money out of the issue and still get some aiming and racking skills put to use. HELP!!

A SIRT pistol and some snap caps for the gun(s) you want to be training with. That should do just fine.

I do not know what you mean by "racking skills" but practicing slidelock and tac reloads with snap caps is very helpful and has certainly sped my reloads up by quite a bit. You can very readily practice drawing from concealment with a dry pistol too. The SIRT is good for trigger manipulation and is a compliment to dry fire.

jon volk
03-03-2013, 10:40 AM
Sirt with a mix of 1.5x2, 3x3, and 3x5 post it notes stuck around the house. Avoid large targets with the sirt or dry fire. For me, they lend themselves to "cheating".

orionz06
03-03-2013, 10:49 AM
A SIRT should be high on that list but at some point you do need to shoot the gun. A *good* one day class that uses 200-300 rounds of ammo will save you a lot of time and help prevent you from developing nasty habits on your own. The videos should reinforce the instruction, not be the only instruction.

dbateman
05-23-2013, 04:17 AM
I have absolutely no idea what a sirt pistol is...

Whats wrong with good old fashioned dryfire ? You can do every thing you do in live fire with dryfire

Chuck Haggard
05-23-2013, 06:15 AM
I have found with some patience and a well thought out program you can get a lot of good work in with your gun, magazines and a handful of dummy rounds.

ST911
05-23-2013, 08:40 AM
There are a variety of dry fire drills and regimens you can use, some are featured here at PF.

I have recently added the Dave Harrington dry drills, available on video here:
http://www.panteaoproductions.com/products/dyanamic-dry-fire#.UZ4bdKLCaSo

I have various distances marked out in my house so that I can practice at specified intervals.

You can invest in a SIRT, BeamHit, or other device, and there's nothing wrong with those. If you don't want to though, you're only limited by your imagination.

Dropkick
05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
Dry Fire, SIRT, Airsoft, are all good options. Heck, sometimes I'll even practice draws with just a plastic blue gun.

Byron
05-23-2013, 09:52 AM
I have absolutely no idea what a sirt pistol is...

Manufacturer: http://nextleveltraining.com/

Just a few PF threads:

Next Level Training SIRT Training Pistol (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?116-Next-Level-Training-SIRT-Training-Pistol)
10 Months with the SIRT (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4058-10-Months-with-the-SIRT)
SIRT Training: Worth It For Non-SIRT Model Shooters? (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4533-SIRT-Training-Worth-It-For-Non-SIRT-Model-Shooters)


Besides classes, it is absolutely the best money I've ever spent on pistol training. Actually, I got the first one as a gift, but thought well enough of it to purchase a second.

JAD
05-23-2013, 09:55 AM
. A *good* one day class that uses 200-300 rounds of ammo will save you a lot of time and help prevent you from developing nasty habits on your own. .

This should be emphasized. I don't want to get too semantic, but shooting and dry firing isn't training, it's practice. Practice is good, but only in that it reinforces what you've learned in training.

Videos aren't training, they're instruction. Instruction is good, but only in that it provides knowledge that can be made practical by guided practice.

The combination of guided practice and instruction is training -- and I really think anyone who is going to bother to buy a pistol and carry it needs to be trained.

I think Gunsite 150 is an adequate baseline. There are lots of equivalents to that particular curriculum -- I think that would be an interesting topic for another thread.

Practice isn't training. Videos aren't training. They're both good things, but if one is thinking seriously about having to shoot to save your life, one needs training.

I need some more training.

Jon
KC

BWT
05-23-2013, 09:59 AM
What I'd do if I had time and money is buy a SIRT pistol, a shot timer, snap caps and research drills here. Shooting is good to learn recoil management and sight tracking.

But, practicing reloading, dry firing your actual gun, drawing, reholstering, etc. are all things you can and should do at home. A shot timer and drills focused on specific tasks are a great for shooting at the range. Better than loading the gun to capacity and shooting a target.

If you're doing a drill like the FAST or doing ball and dummy, or loading one or two rounds in a magazine, firing to slide lock and reloading firing a few more, etc. you can really effectively utilize the small amount of time you can shoot.

Bring 3x5 note cards and shoot smaller amounts of rounds at distances, focusing on smaller targets will drive accuracy.

Here's the cheapest honest to goodness advice I can give you. SIRTs are great, Shot timers are great.

Your friend is snap caps and an empty brass casing. Practice with a spent casing from time to time on the front sight post, see if you can keep it there until the trigger breaks.

Practice dry firing daily, consistency beats intensity, seriously. Practice unholstering and reholstering, drawing and finding sight alignment and trigger press. Practice reloading. Going to a class and running a gun hard and shooting a 1,000 rounds once a year and a monthly match, aren't going to drastically improve your shooting like daily gun handling and dry firing will.

To be completely candid, the last Two gun match I shot, with LE, military, competitive shooters. I took third, if I hadn't missed one target and fumbled a reload, I would've taken first. I haven't shot 2,000 rounds through my Glock 17, or more than 4,500 through my BCM Midlength, there were probably 50 shooters at that match and I don't shoot regularly and I didn't at the time. I beat a Vicker's Shooting Method instructor and members of our City SWAT Team. With a CCC Shaggy pushed to my right hip because they wouldn't let me run it AIWB and I never shoot from the 3 o'clock position. I've taken the state class to get my CWP, and I repair computers for a living.

I'm not saying this to say I'm great, I'm just saying it to say, practice daily, and 5-15 minutes, keep the gun in your hand. Keep the gun in your hands and practice, you can see results with the proper tools for very low cost. You don't need 1,000s of rounds. Get a pack of snap caps and come back here after you have.

ETA: Here's another piece of advice, grip strengthener. Develop a stronger grip, it will strengthen your tendons and your wrists. I do about 50x5 compressions with each hand and hold it compressed with each hand for a minute after 50 compressions five times. I use a Extra Heavy Tension Pro hands by Grip Master from REI. Give it a shot, go with heavy and start with 3 sets of 50 with each hand and alternate hands.

Ask any Pro shooter, most of the Pros have incredible grip strength.

Daily routine my friend. Daily.

dbateman
05-23-2013, 07:15 PM
Manufacturer: http://nextleveltraining.com/

Just a few PF threads:

Next Level Training SIRT Training Pistol (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?116-Next-Level-Training-SIRT-Training-Pistol)
10 Months with the SIRT (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4058-10-Months-with-the-SIRT)
SIRT Training: Worth It For Non-SIRT Model Shooters? (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4533-SIRT-Training-Worth-It-For-Non-SIRT-Model-Shooters)


Besides classes, it is absolutely the best money I've ever spent on pistol training. Actually, I got the first one as a gift, but thought well enough of it to purchase a second.

I can see the value in that as long as the thing feels and handles like your pistol.

One thing though I think they should be treated like a real firearm.

I'm not sure if we can get them over here... We cant get airsoft it's illegal.

Byron
05-23-2013, 07:53 PM
One thing though I think they should be treated like a real firearm.
I strongly disagree, but rather than ramble on about it, I'll just link to Todd's blog post on this very issue: What Is a Gun? (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7723)

Mr_White
05-23-2013, 08:16 PM
I strongly disagree, but rather than ramble on about it, I'll just link to Todd's blog post on this very issue: What Is a Gun? (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7723)

Me too. The essential purpose and function of blue/red guns, SIRTs, and any other ballistically inert gun-shaped object is to demonstrate or participate in activities that have educational or training value, but would be unsafe with a real firearm, no matter how unloaded we thought it were.

dbateman
05-23-2013, 09:11 PM
I strongly disagree, but rather than ramble on about it, I'll just link to Todd's blog post on this very issue: What Is a Gun? (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7723)


I'm not arguing about it my statement was made after a watched the video on the website you linked I just don't see any need to be wandering around in front of the firing line wile people are engaging targets even if the guns being used are laser guns.

I understand they are a good tool to teach people things like clearing but the safety fundamentals should still apply.
Fair enough for drills where you are learning how to deal with being at gun point but other than that I feel the safety rules should apply.

Maybe I'm a bit odd ?

Mr_White
05-23-2013, 09:19 PM
I'm not arguing about it my statement was made after a watched the video on the website you linked I just don't see any need to be wandering around in front of the firing line wile people are engaging targets even if the guns being used are laser guns.

I understand they are a good tool to teach people things like clearing but the safety fundamentals should still apply.
Fair enough for drills where you are learning how to deal with being at gun point but other than that I feel the safety rules should apply.

Maybe I'm a bit odd ?

What do you think the Raison d'être for blue/red guns and SIRTs is?

dbateman
05-23-2013, 09:49 PM
What do you think the Raison d'être for blue/red guns and SIRTs is?

Teaching people bad habits apparently.

ToddG
05-23-2013, 11:01 PM
Teaching people bad habits apparently.

I wave a SIRT around nonchalantly in class all the time. Yet somehow I've been switched on enough not to do the same thing with a live gun. I used to steer my cat all over the house using my SIRT laser yet somehow I'm innately talented and brilliant enough not to do the same thing with a live gun. As others have said, the whole point of having non-firing training guns is so that we can do things with them that would be unsafe using a real loaded gun. Like aggravating cats.

Mr_White
05-23-2013, 11:30 PM
Teaching people bad habits apparently.

This seems like a nonserious response. Which, hey I understand, because I love to be silly. But for real, it's hard for me to believe you are actually saying that you think ASP, Rings, NLT, and whoever else makes inert trainers is doing so to teach people bad habits. Unless that's your real answer, why do you think they exist?

dbateman
05-24-2013, 03:49 AM
This seems like a nonserious response. Which, hey I understand, because I love to be silly. But for real, it's hard for me to believe you are actually saying that you think ASP, Rings, NLT, and whoever else makes inert trainers is doing so to teach people bad habits. Unless that's your real answer, why do you think they exist?

No, I think people being stupid teaches people bad habits regardless if is a plastic gun or not.

Can you please explain to me why an instructor would need to walk in front of the firing line wile people are shooting other than the fact that he is an idiot who will probably end up doing it one day during live fire.

To answer your question I think they are training aid good for teaching people who have never handled a firearm before, I think they're a good tool for teaching CQB and how to deal with armed opponents. I do however feel that if you cannot obey the safety rules with a plastic firearm you have no business using a real one.

Do you think it's ok to muzzle your partner wile clearing ? What about muzzling yourself wile exiting your car ? Is that ok because you know it's only a toy gun.

ToddG
05-24-2013, 07:08 AM
Can you please explain to me why an instructor would need to walk in front of the firing line wile people are shooting other than the fact that he is an idiot who will probably end up doing it one day during live fire.

Can you show an example of that happening?

Your entire argument seems to revolve around the idea that people won't treat real guns as something special. I find it rather absurd. The whole reason we have the cardinal rules of firearms safety is because we recognize that guns need to be treated specially.


To answer your question I think they are training aid good for teaching people who have never handled a firearm before, I think they're a good tool for teaching CQB and how to deal with armed opponents. I do however feel that if you cannot obey the safety rules with a plastic firearm you have no business using a real one.

Why is it OK to point one at someone if you're doing "CQB" but not if you're assessing someone's stance or grip?

Byron
05-24-2013, 09:01 AM
Just so everyone is on the same page for this discussion, I believe that dbateman is criticizing the activities seen in this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YurkFqp_Pss


Can you please explain to me why an instructor would need to walk in front of the firing line wile people are shooting other than the fact that he is an idiot who will probably end up doing it one day during live fire.
Well, first of all, no one is "shooting." It's not a real "firing line." They have pink laserguns. They project light. The models in the video have plastic slides. They don't reciprocate. They don't go "bang bang bang." The difference is immediately apparent in the hand.

I personally don't think Mike Hughes is an "idiot." I would bet you good money that he didn't just toss down a duffle bag mixed with live weapons and SIRTs and say, "Oh, please don't pick up the live weapons. Only holster the SIRTs."

Any class where this type of activity occurs should have numerous, redundant safety precautions to ensure that no live weapons find their way onto the line. Knowing what I know of Mr. Hughes and his professionalism, I am confident that he took such measures.

I could think of dozens of reasons why being 'downrange' of a person could be extremely valuable while coaching them in the manipulation of an inert training pistol. The simple fact that standing in front of someone allows you to see different things than is possible from standing behind them (or to the side), should be apparent. The implications of this should be obvious: the more information an instructor has about his student, the better he can educate her. By standing in front of her, he might notice any number of problems with grip or trigger manipulation that might not have been evident from another angle.

If you have any evidence that Mike Hughes just waltzes out in front of people while they are firing live weapons, I'd love to see it. Until then, you can keep betting that he "will probably" do that one day, while I will personally bet that he "probably won't."


To answer your question I think they are training aid good for teaching people who have never handled a firearm before, I think they're a good tool for teaching CQB and how to deal with armed opponents. I do however feel that if you cannot obey the safety rules with a plastic firearm you have no business using a real one.
I fail to see how your point in red doesn't directly contradict your point in blue.

If you are pointing a plastic firearm at someone in a CQB scenario, you are violating firearm safety rules. People tend to accept this because... you're not actually using a firearm.

So you're fine with breaking these unbreakable rules for certain parts of training: you've made that clear. But if people break the exact same rules during a different part of training, which is actually lower stress and less chaotic, they are "idiots."


Do you think it's ok to muzzle your partner wile clearing ? What about muzzling yourself wile exiting your car ? Is that ok because you know it's only a toy gun.
Different contexts require different levels of scrutiny. I would think that was self-evident. As I noted from your quotes above, you implicitly acknowledge this by saying that inert training weapons are acceptable for CQB and for handing to complete neophytes.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too.

How far does your hard line stance extend? Do you think that people who point water pistols at each other are "idiots" who "have no business using a real [pistol]"?

Mr_White
05-24-2013, 10:32 AM
Can you please explain to me why an instructor would need to walk in front of the firing line wile people are shooting other than the fact that he is an idiot who will probably end up doing it one day during live fire.

I'll refrain from commenting on the video because I haven't seen it and now I am in a place where it's blocked and I can't see it. But from what I read people saying about it, Byron's comments seem right on.


To answer your question I think they are training aid good for teaching people who have never handled a firearm before, I think they're a good tool for teaching CQB and how to deal with armed opponents. I do however feel that if you cannot obey the safety rules with a plastic firearm you have no business using a real one.

I agree that they are great for the first two things you said. But your second sentence does not comport with the first.


Do you think it's ok to muzzle your partner wile clearing ? What about muzzling yourself wile exiting your car ? Is that ok because you know it's only a toy gun.

No, I do not think it's ok if we are talking about an actual firearm. If we are talking about something that is not in fact a firearm and is obviously not one, such as a SIRT, a blue or red gun, or an actual toy gun, then yes it is ok. That's why those tools exist in training (and playing in the case of toys.)

Those are my direct answers to your questions. Byron's post expands on those points and I agree with what he wrote, so no need for me to rehash all of it.

dbateman
05-24-2013, 04:41 PM
Can you show an example of that happening?

Your entire argument seems to revolve around the idea that people won't treat real guns as something special. I find it rather absurd. The whole reason we have the cardinal rules of firearms safety is because we recognize that guns need to be treated specially.


Why is it OK to point one at someone if you're doing "CQB" but not if you're assessing someone's stance or grip?

In CQB training it is necessary to point a firearm or hold a training knife to someone as part of their training, I can not think of any reason why you would need to asses someone grip or stance from the muzzle end...actually I think if I'm assessing someones grip/stance from the muzzle end I'm having a bad day.

dbateman
05-24-2013, 05:23 PM
Just so everyone is on the same page for this discussion, I believe that dbateman is criticizing the activities seen in this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YurkFqp_Pss


Well, first of all, no one is "shooting." It's not a real "firing line." They have pink laserguns. They project light. The models in the video have plastic slides. They don't reciprocate. They don't go "bang bang bang." The difference is immediately apparent in the hand.

I personally don't think Mike Hughes is an "idiot." I would bet you good money that he didn't just toss down a duffle bag mixed with live weapons and SIRTs and say, "Oh, please don't pick up the live weapons. Only holster the SIRTs."

Any class where this type of activity occurs should have numerous, redundant safety precautions to ensure that no live weapons find their way onto the line. Knowing what I know of Mr. Hughes and his professionalism, I am confident that he took such measures.

I could think of dozens of reasons why being 'downrange' of a person could be extremely valuable while coaching them in the manipulation of an inert training pistol. The simple fact that standing in front of someone allows you to see different things than is possible from standing behind them (or to the side), should be apparent. The implications of this should be obvious: the more information an instructor has about his student, the better he can educate her. By standing in front of her, he might notice any number of problems with grip or trigger manipulation that might not have been evident from another angle.

I have never seen anyone walk out in front of people using inert pistols or wile dry firing, I did try and think of why I would want to be out there if I was instructing and to be honest I don't think I would gain anything from being out in front of the firing line.

If you have any evidence that Mike Hughes just waltzes out in front of people while they are firing live weapons, I'd love to see it. Until then, you can keep betting that he "will probably" do that one day, while I will personally bet that he "probably won't."


I fail to see how your point in red doesn't directly contradict your point in blue.

If you are pointing a plastic firearm at someone in a CQB scenario, you are violating firearm safety rules. People tend to accept this because... you're not actually using a firearm.

Because it is necessary to do it as part of training it is a risk but it needed to be there to give the student experience, however when it comes to people who have never handled a firearm before when you are teaching them with a plastic gun or a real gun you are teaching them behaviour

So you're fine with breaking these unbreakable rules for certain parts of training: you've made that clear. But if people break the exact same rules during a different part of training, which is actually lower stress and less chaotic, they are "idiots."

No, if I am pointing a firearm at you I intend to shoot you (unless you comply). The same is true in training even though the weapon has been cleared or is inert it is a necessary part of training or it would not be done.

Different contexts require different levels of scrutiny. I would think that was self-evident. As I noted from your quotes above, you implicitly acknowledge this by saying that inert training weapons are acceptable for CQB and for handing to complete neophytes.

Not really they are at polar opposites, but one thing is for sure is you train sloppy you work worse if you're muzzling your partner as you clear the stair well with a plastic gun in training you are going to do it when you go to work... At least try not to do it in training so when your working and have 1000 things going thru your mind you don't need to remind yourself not to accidently shoot your team mate.


You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too.

How far does your hard line stance extend? Do you think that people who point water pistols at each other are "idiots" who "have no business using a real [pistol]"?

orionz06
05-24-2013, 06:47 PM
Meh, the SIRT is a gun shaped laser.


I'm already over it. Gotta go watch hockey and dry fire....


...


...

with my cat.

ToddG
05-24-2013, 10:18 PM
In CQB training it is necessary to point a firearm or hold a training knife to someone as part of their training, I can not think of any reason why you would need to asses someone grip or stance from the muzzle end...actually I think if I'm assessing someones grip/stance from the muzzle end I'm having a bad day.

But that's still inconsistent. "In CQB training it is necessary..." just says I can break the rules. You've decided that it's OK to break the rules for some things but not for others. Personally, I fail to see how it's safe to point a SIRT at someone in a force on force scenario but then unsafe to do so during some other training exercise. The SIRT doesn't become more dangerous; it doesn't know we've stopped "CQB" practice...

dbateman
05-24-2013, 10:59 PM
But that's still inconsistent. "In CQB training it is necessary..." just says I can break the rules. You've decided that it's OK to break the rules for some things but not for others. Personally, I fail to see how it's safe to point a SIRT at someone in a force on force scenario but then unsafe to do so during some other training exercise. The SIRT doesn't become more dangerous; it doesn't know we've stopped "CQB" practice...

I am not braking any safety rule.

If I am holding a pistol and pointing it at you my intention is to shoot you, you are my target.

I am not braking a safety rule because I want to shoot you.

If I am pointing a real firearm at you I am not braking a safety rule I want to shoot you, that is my intention.

If I am pointing a plastic pistol at you during training my intention is the same. You are my target, I am training you how to deal with an armed opponent and I am also training myself on a live target.

Now on the other hand if I take some new shooter and start waving my blue plastic gun around and pointing at people and sweeping myself and the student because it's only a toy so who cares I am teaching them to do the same with a real firearm.

However if I emphasise the importance of muzzle control and trigger finger Discipline right from the start it is a lot easier for the student to remember once the real guns come out.

ToddG
05-24-2013, 11:06 PM
If I am pointing a plastic pistol at you during training my intention is the same. You are my target, I am training you how to deal with an armed opponent and I am also training myself on a live target.

But I'm not actually someone you want to shoot. So you can accept it's not a gun when you are pretending I'm a bad guy, but can't accept it when you stop pretending?


Now on the other hand if I take some new shooter and start waving my blue plastic gun around and pointing at people and sweeping myself and the student because it's only a toy so who cares I am teaching them to do the same with a real firearm.

Except I haven't seen that translate into actual practice. Like I said, I wave a SIRT around in class like it's... well, like it's not a gun. Because it's not. I get permission from students and then use them as targets for demos, etc. I've never once accidentally asked a student to walk down range and be a target for a live fire demo. I've never had a student whip his gun out and wave it around dangerously with the excuse, but teacher did it! It just doesn't happen.

If you want to use a SIRT or Ring's gun as a safety training device I totally get that. LE agencies do things like that all the time, issuing everyone a Ring's or ASP gun and telling them to treat it like the real thing. No objection from me... that is one way to use those tools. But there are other ways, too.

You might as well say never point your finger at someone you don't want to destroy. Is it dangerous to point my finger? No. And it's not dangerous to point the solid plastic gun-lookalike, either.

dbateman
05-25-2013, 06:10 AM
But I'm not actually someone you want to shoot. So you can accept it's not a gun when you are pretending I'm a bad guy, but can't accept it when you stop pretending?



Except I haven't seen that translate into actual practice. Like I said, I wave a SIRT around in class like it's... well, like it's not a gun. Because it's not. I get permission from students and then use them as targets for demos, etc. I've never once accidentally asked a student to walk down range and be a target for a live fire demo. I've never had a student whip his gun out and wave it around dangerously with the excuse, but teacher did it! It just doesn't happen.

If you want to use a SIRT or Ring's gun as a safety training device I totally get that. LE agencies do things like that all the time, issuing everyone a Ring's or ASP gun and telling them to treat it like the real thing. No objection from me... that is one way to use those tools. But there are other ways, too.

You might as well say never point your finger at someone you don't want to destroy. Is it dangerous to point my finger? No. And it's not dangerous to point the solid plastic gun-lookalike, either.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

One question however as an instructor what can you see from the front wile someone is using a SIRT pistol that you could not see from the side or rear ?

ToddG
05-25-2013, 07:23 AM
One question however as an instructor what can you see from the front wile someone is using a SIRT pistol that you could not see from the side or rear ?

Eye dominance. It's also often simply easier to move around the front when examing the grip from all angles. But that's not the primary way I use the SIRT when teaching, certainly.