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DocGKR
02-28-2013, 04:37 AM
Thanks to Kyle's Gun Shop in Cincinnati, OH and San Diego Police Equipment for generously providing much of the ammunition used in this testing.

We tested the new Hornady Critical Duty ammunition using Fed HST and BH Barnes Tac-XP as control loads.

9 mm Hornady 135 gr Critical Duty at 1085 fps:
BG: Pen = 15.7, RD = 0.52, RL = 0.49, RW = 134.6
4LD: Pen = 17.8, RD = 0.47, RL = 0.55, RW = 134.1

(dime)

9 mm Fed 147 gr HST at 1005 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.6
4LD: Pen = 16.5, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.53, RW = 147.5

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Horn135grCritDefvs147HST_zpsf1c7dfe1.jpg

9 mm Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty at 1185 fps:
BG: Pen = 17.9, RD = 0.52, RL = 0.50, RW = 135.6
4LD: Pen = 18.1, RD = 0.48, RL = 0.53, RW = 134.1

(dime)

9 mm Fed 135 gr +P bonded Tactical (LE9T5) at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.58, RL = 0.34, RW = 134.6
4LD: Pen = 15.0, RD = 0.56, RL = 0.43, RW = 134.1

9 mm BH 115 gr +P Barnes Tac-XP at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 15.0, RD = 0.52, RL = 0.49, RW = 115.4
4LD: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.52, RL = 0.49, RW = 115.7

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Horn135grPvsFedTacandXPB_zps6ba3263d.jpg

9 mm 147 gr +P HST (P9HST4) at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.4, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.5
4LD: Pen = 16.3, RD = 0.59, RL = 0.43, RW = 147.8

(dime)

9 mm Fed 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1005 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.6
4LD: Pen = 16.5, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.53, RW = 147.5

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HST147P_zps73440262.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.40 Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty at 985 fps:
BG: Pen = 16.9, RD = 0.51, RL = 0.56, RW = 175.1
4LD: Pen = 19.4, RD = 0.45, RL = 0.60, RW = 174.6

(dime)

.40 Fed 180 gr HST (P40HST1) at 986 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.8, RD = 0.70, RL = 0.33, RW = 181.5
4LD: Pen = 15.8, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.48, RW = 183.5

.40 Fed 165 gr HST (P40HST3) at 1129 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.69, RL = 0.39, RW = 165.6
4LD: Pen = 18.0, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.47, RW = 167.8

.40 Fed 155 gr HST (P40HST2) at 1150 fps:
BG: Pen = 12.5, RD = 0.67, RL = 0.34, RW = 155.4
4LD: Pen = 15.5, RD = 0.61, RL = 0.41, RW = 156.6

.40 BH 140 gr Barnes Tac-XP at 1267 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.63, RL = 0.48, RW = 139.5
4LD: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.61, RL = 0.47, RW = 142.2

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Horn175CritDuty_zps87f49bb3.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.45 Hornady 220 gr +P Critical Duty at 951 fps:
BG: Pen = 16.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.52, RW = 219.3
4LD: Pen = 16.4, RD = 0.63, RL = 0.55, RW = 218.3

(quarter)

.45 Fed 230 gr +P HST (P45HST1) at 936 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.8, RD = 0.82, RL = 0.42, RW = 231.2
4LD: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.76, RL = 0.50, RW = 234.4

.45 BH 185 gr +P Barnes Tac-XP at 810 fps:
BG: Pen = 13.3, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.56, RW = 185.6
4LD: Pen = 12.5, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.56, RW = 185.5

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Horn220CritDuty_zps2075cd0d.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In general, the Hornady Critical Duty ammunition did NOT perform as well as several current JHP loads. The best performing Critical Duty load was the .45 Auto 220 gr +P and the worst performing was the .40 S&W 175 gr. In areas where conventional JHP designs are prohibited, the Hornady Critical Duty joins the Federal EFMJ as an option that is better than the Corbon Powerball or FMJ loads.

The Barnes all copper JHP bullets are an outstanding choice when lighter weight service caliber handgun projectiles are desired.

The Fed HST line is among the best duty loads currently available for service caliber pistols. HST’s tend to work best using heavier bullets (147 gr, 180 gr, 230 gr) at moderate velocities, with standard pressures.

JAD
02-28-2013, 07:03 AM
Doc,

Thanks for the data! I'm confused by your conclusions.

I was under the impression that if a bullet penetrated adequately, had a sharp cutting surface like a shoulder or petals, and retained its weight through the wounding process, it was a good bullet; the expanded diameter isn't that meaningful, or you'd carry a .45 since they get at least a little bigger.

If the CD's defect was that it expanded to 0.5ish rather than 0.6ish, who cares? It penetrated way better than the other stuff, and if its supposed benefit on barriers holds up to factory test levels, it would seem to be the best choice among the tested loads.

Further, I don't get why you liked the XPBs. They expanded about like the CDs and didn't penetrate nearly as well.

What am I missing?

Sparks2112
02-28-2013, 07:16 AM
Cool. I've been looking forward to this :D

SouthNarc
02-28-2013, 08:12 AM
The 9mm (can't remember what weight) yaws consistently and badly through laminated glass also.

Nephrology
02-28-2013, 08:22 AM
The 9mm (can't remember what weight) yaws consistently and badly through laminated glass also.

The 9mm Hornady CD?

JM Campbell
02-28-2013, 09:10 AM
Damn good info Doc! Thanks for the continued support and the support of great vendors that supplied the ammo.

Information will set you free, ignorance is a liability.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

SouthNarc
02-28-2013, 10:43 AM
The 9mm Hornady CD?

That's the one with the plastic thingy right? If so..yes.

JAD
02-28-2013, 10:49 AM
That's the one with the plastic thingy right? If so..yes.
There are two with the plastic thingy -- Critical Defense and Critical Duty (I am not in love with Hornady's marketing department). Defense *appears* to be non-Interlocked, Duty is heavier and Interlocked. I have not seen any tests but Hornady's of the Critical Duty through glass. Hornady, natch, did not cop to a yaw.

I would not care -- there are lots of good loads out there -- but a) the 9 CDuty has been more available than other defensive 9 loads lately and b) I have a P35 coming back from Mars Armament that loves the stuff.

orionz06
02-28-2013, 10:51 AM
Critical Duty continues to not impress. I saw 3 or 4 rounds last year fail to expand through denim (all that were shot failed to expand) and later saw some really odd deflections through windshields where other rounds were predictable.

DocGKR
02-28-2013, 12:47 PM
doctorpogo--I am sorry you are confused. To the best of my knowledge, I am not confused. The Hornady CD loads simply do not work as well as other options when looked at in aggregate. Is it better than an FMJ? Yes, but the CD are not as good as many other options, so I cannot recommend them for general use. If I had a pistol that only fed FMJ and CD, then I would carry the CD or better yet, get a more reliable pistol...

TGS
02-28-2013, 01:04 PM
Doc,

Thanks for the data! I'm confused by your conclusions.

I was under the impression that if a bullet penetrated adequately, had a sharp cutting surface like a shoulder or petals, and retained its weight through the wounding process, it was a good bullet; the expanded diameter isn't that meaningful, or you'd carry a .45 since they get at least a little bigger.

If the CD's defect was that it expanded to 0.5ish rather than 0.6ish, who cares? It penetrated way better than the other stuff, and if its supposed benefit on barriers holds up to factory test levels, it would seem to be the best choice among the tested loads.

Further, I don't get why you liked the XPBs. They expanded about like the CDs and didn't penetrate nearly as well.

What am I missing?

I think that optimal penetration is suppose to be 12"-16". These loads went slightly over that, which is unnecessary. The penetration itself is not bad, but it's just not needed......and the bullet accomplished that penetration by trading for a smaller expanded diameter.

So, a more optimal bullet would be expanding slightly bigger while still penetrating anywhere between 12"-16".

That's my take on it. I think the difference is quite small in the grand scheme of things, and although not optimal I don't think the load presents a liability such as something like a 115 Silvertip.

JAD
02-28-2013, 02:34 PM
doctorpogo--I am sorry you are confused. To the best of my knowledge, I am not confused. The Hornady CD loads simply do not work as well as other options when looked at in aggregate. Is it better than an FMJ? Yes, but the CD are not as good as many other options, so I cannot recommend them for general use. If I had a pistol that only fed FMJ and CD, then I would carry the CD or better yet, get a more reliable pistol...

Thanks, Doc. I was confused by the fact that you called the Barnes load good (0.52x15) and the CD load bad (0.52*15.7). I assumed there was more to the story, is all. Do you happen to have any comment about the post-glass yaw and failures to expand that were mentioned elsewhere in the thread?

DocGKR
02-28-2013, 04:03 PM
I have not put up the glass testing yet, but there were issues with it, as well as some failures to expand during the 4LD testing. The CD loads penetrate deeper than needed, don't crush as much tissue as the could, and are not as sharp on the leading edge as other projectiles.

JAD
02-28-2013, 05:11 PM
I have not put up the glass testing yet, but there were issues with it, as well as some failures to expand during the 4LD testing. The CD loads penetrate deeper than needed, don't crush as much tissue as the could, and are not as sharp on the leading edge as other projectiles.

That makes plenty of sense, except for the penetrate deeper than needed part (our felons run thick around here). Thanks for taking the time to respond to my request for clarification.

jlw
02-28-2013, 06:21 PM
what was the testing medium? Where the rounds shot through auto glass and sheet metal?

DocGKR
02-28-2013, 06:29 PM
10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin at 4 deg C. Our handgun ammo spec calls for bare gel, 4LD, and auto windshields, so that encompasses the majority of our testing. Almost all service caliber handgun bullets pretty much do the same thing in sheet metal, so I don't get too excited about it.

Tamara
03-01-2013, 06:55 AM
(our felons run thick around here)

It's all the feedlots. That there's your problem.

jlw
03-01-2013, 10:04 AM
10% Type 250-A ordnance gelatin at 4 deg C. Our handgun ammo spec calls for bare gel, 4LD, and auto windshields, so that encompasses the majority of our testing. Almost all service caliber handgun bullets pretty much do the same thing in sheet metal, so I don't get too excited about it.

I have attended several ballistics demos recently. The auto glass and sheet metal are game changers for folks who make traffic stops. The Critical Duty outperforms the other top rounds when those barriers are part of the test although the Federal HST does very well with them.

For those not conducting traffic stops, the difference doesn't matter much. I fell perfectly well armed with Gold Dot or Ranger SXT when just knocking about, but having seen both separate miserably when going through auto glass I switched out duty rounds.

Sparks2112
03-01-2013, 01:15 PM
I have attended several ballistics demos recently. The auto glass and sheet metal are game changers for folks who make traffic stops. The Critical Duty outperforms the other top rounds when those barriers are part of the test although the Federal HST does very well with them.

For those not conducting traffic stops, the difference doesn't matter much. I fell perfectly well armed with Gold Dot or Ranger SXT when just knocking about, but having seen both separate miserably when going through auto glass I switched out duty rounds.

It was my understanding ammo companies were pretty good about futzing with tests to get the results they wanted. I've yet to see anything that would get me to carry hornady handgun ammo in anything other than .44 magnum, and I'm not a hater, I love their rifle stuff.

ToddG
03-01-2013, 01:51 PM
For those not conducting traffic stops, the difference doesn't matter much. I fell perfectly well armed with Gold Dot or Ranger SXT when just knocking about, but having seen both separate miserably when going through auto glass I switched out duty rounds.

Any details you can share about the GD failures? I've dealt with a number of agencies that issue it and report great success with car part penetration & performance.

jlw
03-01-2013, 02:16 PM
Any details you can share about the GD failures? I've dealt with a number of agencies that issue it and report great success with car part penetration & performance.

Please note my qualifiers in my previous posting concerning traffic stops or lack there of.

I would feel perfectly well loaded knocking about loaded with Gold Dots or Ranger SXT and probably several others. What I saw with both of these rounds was a catastrophic separation of bullets when fired through auto glass as well as sheet metal. Against bare ballistic gelatin or clothed gelatin, the GDs and the Rangers performed as advertised.

We were issuing Gold Dots. After seeing the separation, I pulled out my phone and started the process to switch our duty ammo.

It should be noted that the Critical Duty in .45 had not been released at that time. I switched our .45 guys over to Federal HST because it also performed very well against auto glass and sheet metal.

jlw
03-01-2013, 02:23 PM
It was my understanding ammo companies were pretty good about futzing with tests to get the results they wanted. I've yet to see anything that would get me to carry hornady handgun ammo in anything other than .44 magnum, and I'm not a hater, I love their rifle stuff.

At the demos, note the plural use of the word, that I have attended, the people conducting the demo offered participants the opportunity to shoot any ammo they wished through all of the same testing media as that used by the company.

The tests were straight up head to head comparisons, and the company didn't know what ammo would be shot other than their own.

ToddG
03-01-2013, 04:50 PM
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, it's not meant to be. Butn are you talking about Gold Dots or Golden Saber? The Gold Dot is bonded and jacket separation shouldn't be an issue.

Mr_White
03-01-2013, 05:15 PM
I don't think I have even seen a picture of a Gold Dot that actually had core/jacket separation. I've seen pictures of them pretty smashed and misshapen after a tough barrier like auto glass, but the copper is still electroplated onto the lead...

Not doubting you jlw. Just surprised to hear your report.

jlw
03-01-2013, 06:19 PM
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, it's not meant to be. Butn are you talking about Gold Dots or Golden Saber? The Gold Dot is bonded and jacket separation shouldn't be an issue.

Gold Dots. 100%, positively, unquestionably without a doubt: Gold Dots.

I have never owned, been issued, or even fired a single round of Golden Sabre ammunition.

KeeFus
03-01-2013, 06:52 PM
From personal experience... 45 ACP 230 grain Gold Dots are the shit. That is all. Carry on.

Tamara
03-02-2013, 07:37 AM
I don't think I have even seen a picture of a Gold Dot that actually had core/jacket separation. I've seen pictures of them pretty smashed and misshapen after a tough barrier like auto glass, but the copper is still electroplated onto the lead...

Not doubting you jlw. Just surprised to hear your report.

Yeah, this. I've seen a crapload of spent GDHP and am having a hard time wrapping my head around how you could get the copper off the lead without, like, smelting it down or something. :confused:

jlw
03-02-2013, 09:15 AM
At the 2012 GALEFI conference, Hornady did an ammo demo. They shot all of their stuff and then offered to let others shoot their own ammo through the same tests. One guy took them up on it, but I don't remember what he shot.

A few months later, two of our guys and I attended a demo at a metro Atlanta Sheriff's Office. At that demo, we shot our then issued.45 ACP duty ammo, which has Gold Dots bullets, and some Winchester Ranger SXT in 9mm. What we saw were miserable failures of both of these when fired through auto glass.

One of our instructors arranged for them to come do a demo at our place. I was not able to attend this demo due to a prior commitment. I do have some video, but apparently "don't video the narc" has more meanings than I knew it did with one of which mean "its okay to video the narc several times because I didn't think the chief really meant it".

Sparks2112
03-02-2013, 11:18 AM
I've shot gold dots at steal plates and found them intact but rather flattened down range. I wonder if you had a bad lot of ammo or something. I was operating under the assumption you'd shear petals off before you'd see core jacket separation on a gold dot.

BLR
03-03-2013, 06:54 AM
Tumble platers typically plate well, or not at all.

DocGKR - has anyone actually modeled projectile impact on "auto glass" (quotes because of the variability of auto glass)? Is there a standard test? That is, with a good DoE.

ToddG
03-03-2013, 10:45 AM
At that demo, we shot our then issued.45 ACP duty ammo, which has Gold Dots bullets...


Is it actually Speer Gold Dot ammo, or something loaded by another manufacturer claiming to use Gold Dots? (Quite a few reputable smaller ammo companies do this)

jlw
03-03-2013, 11:29 AM
Is it actually Speer Gold Dot ammo, or something loaded by another manufacturer claiming to use Gold Dots? (Quite a few reputable smaller ammo companies do this)

Our ammo was loaded by the same company that loads the AMU's ammo. The Winchester Ranger SXT came straight from a Winchester box.

We weren't the only folks that shot/provided ammo.

ToddG
03-03-2013, 01:30 PM
Understood. Nonetheless, Gold Dot bullets by their design shouldn't do what you experienced. If you have any of that ammo left, you might want to send it to ATK. I'm sure they don't want bad bullets -- if that's what it is -- out there in the holsters of cops.

DocGKR
03-09-2013, 02:13 AM
Several individuals expressed interest in seeing the test results for shots thorough automobile windshields; below is some data:

9 mm Hornady 135 gr Critical Duty at 1085 fps:
AG: Pen = 15.0, RD = 0.47, RL = 0.41, RW = 134.1

9 mm Fed 147 gr HST at 1005 fps:
AG: Pen = 13.0, RD = 0.47, RL = 0.53, RW = 143.7

9 mm Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty at 1185 fps:
AG: Pen = 15.5, RD = 0.48, RL = 0.44, RW = 123.0

9 mm BH 115 gr +P Barnes Tac-XP at 1069 fps:
AG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.39, RL = 0.55, RW = 115.3

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.40 Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty at 985 fps:
AG: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.50, RL = 0.47, RW = 139.4

.40 Fed 180 gr HST (P40HST1) at 986 fps:
AG: Pen = 12.5, RD = 0.57, RL = 0.45, RW = 153.7

.40 BH 140 gr Barnes Tac-XP at 1267 fps:
AG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.49, RL = 0.50, RW = 140.0

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.45 Hornady 220 gr +P Critical Duty at 951 fps:
AG: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.61, RL = 0.49, RW = 210.6

.45 Fed 230 gr +P HST (P45HST1) at 936 fps:
AG: Pen = 13.5, RD = 0.59, RL = 0.57, RW = 229.5

.45 BH 185 gr +P Barnes Tac-XP at 810 fps:
AG: Pen = 15.5, RD = 0.48, RL = 0.58, RW = 186.5

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Winshieldglass_zps90449fef.jpg

Top row is .45 Auto, middle is .40, bottom is 9 mm
Left column is Barnes Tac-XP, middle is Hornady Critical Duty, right is Federal HST

Super J
03-14-2013, 06:48 AM
Thanks for sharing

Morbidbattlecry
03-25-2013, 08:59 PM
Doc, or anyone really. I'm about to pick up some 147gr hst p+ 9mm for self defence. I'll be running out of a glock 17. Do you see it being a problem that the round is over driven out of 4.5 inch barrel?

Sparks2112
03-25-2013, 09:20 PM
Doc, or anyone really. I'm about to pick up some 147gr hst p+ 9mm for self defence. I'll be running out of a glock 17. Do you see it being a problem that the round is over driven out of 4.5 inch barrel?

What other options do you have for 9mm duty ammo? I'd take the standard pressure if you can get it, but I wouldn't feel bad about it either.

Rich
04-20-2013, 03:18 PM
Thanks Doc.

VolGrad
07-20-2013, 09:46 AM
I have read a million ballistics test and frankly get overwhelmed.

As a regular Joe Civilian concealed carry guy with the following 9mm ammo options available what would you choose and why?

Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+P (or std pressure)
Federal HST 147gr std pressure
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P

Assume price is same as is availability. Break it down for me if you don't mind.

ToddG
07-20-2013, 09:57 AM
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P
Federal HST 147gr std pressure
Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+P (or std pressure)


I know DocGKR's seen great results both in jello and actual on-duty reports with the 147gr HST but I remain a fan of the faster bullets because, well, voodoo. The 124gr +p Gold Dot is probably the most proven 9mm duty/defense round on the market having been in use by NYPD for many years now with very positive results. The Hornady stuff has no real track record yet. It wouldn't surprise me if the 135+p load performs well (the old Federal Tactical 135gr +p had some amazing success stories), though.

SouthNarc
07-20-2013, 10:33 AM
On the Gold Dot and automobiles:

The agency I retired from has issued the 165 GDHP .40 since '96 and we had 6 shootings involving cars. Three of those were with my guys.

Personally, anecdotally, speaking...I have alot of confidence in that load around cars.

ToddG
07-20-2013, 10:37 AM
Which 165gr .40-cal Gold Dot? There are two. One is rated at 1,150fps and the other, a "reduced recoil" load, at 1,050fps. Some agencies have reported poor results with the reduced recoil variant.

VolGrad
07-20-2013, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the ranking Todd. I have carried the Gold Dots for several years and am currently sitting on approx 500rds. I just saw one of my favorite ammo dealers had the other stuff in stock and recall reading about the Hornady lately so was evaluating if I should stick with what I have or "upgrade". I originally chose the Gold Dots for a reason so I might as well stick with what I have.

ToddG
07-20-2013, 12:37 PM
If Hornady's numbers for the 135+p were consistent with the actual results DocGKR got, I'd be more willing to try it.

In fairness, I'm also an ATK (Federal & Speer) fanboy because they've been so good to me over the past five years.

SouthNarc
07-20-2013, 01:03 PM
Which 165gr .40-cal Gold Dot? There are two. One is rated at 1,150fps and the other, a "reduced recoil" load, at 1,050fps

The hot one.

ToddG
07-20-2013, 01:24 PM
The hot one.

I hate to belabor this point, but because it's you...

Are you talking about the one that exits the barrel faster, or the one that comes with the nicer pocket square and shoes?

:cool:

Sparks2112
07-20-2013, 03:25 PM
I hate to belabor this point, but because it's you...

Are you talking about the one that exits the barrel faster, or the one that comes with the nicer pocket square and shoes?

:cool:

Hah

Pennzoil
07-20-2013, 03:33 PM
Good read (http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanCop/AC0612/) by Chris L on cars vs bullets with some gold dot data in it. Article starts on page 25 and continues on at pg36.

Rich
07-21-2013, 08:28 PM
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P
Federal HST 147gr std pressure
Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+P (or std pressure)


I know DocGKR's seen great results both in jello and actual on-duty reports with the 147gr HST but I remain a fan of the faster bullets because, well, voodoo. The 124gr +p Gold Dot is probably the most proven 9mm duty/defense round on the market having been in use by NYPD for many years now with very positive results. The Hornady stuff has no real track record yet. It wouldn't surprise me if the 135+p load performs well (the old Federal Tactical 135gr +p had some amazing success stories), though.

With the 9mm?

I like the 124 +P
I think I may have a slight edge in feeding over the 147 standard pressure loads.

But in 40S&W I like the 180gr or even a 200gr. BTW I hope the 200 gr Nosler load will do well in the Dr. test.
Mainly because my P229 loves the heavier bullets.

Chuck Haggard
07-22-2013, 01:03 AM
We have issued the 124gr +P Gold Dot for many years, except 2006 when we issued the 124gr +P Ranger-T. Both are superb loads for police duty or defensive use.

That Gold Dot loading is very well proven over the years, and likely as close to "best duty load ever" as you will find, IMHO

Chuck Whitlock
07-22-2013, 01:17 AM
If Hornady's numbers for the 135+p were consistent with the actual results DocGKR got, I'd be more willing to try it.

Preach it. I really wish the 175 grain .40 did the same.

JLM
12-05-2013, 01:55 AM
Glad I came here before dropping some coin on the Hornady stuff. 124+P Gold Dot has always been hella accurate out of my P226.

And yes Todd, I still own a 226. That magical fairy bit you gave me is holding up quite well and makes for a better gun. LTNS btw :cool:

Why doesn't Kyle's carry the Speer stuff or is it just out of stock? I found a few places that SEEM to have it in stock, but don't know if they are reliable
vendors.

Rich
08-28-2014, 05:43 PM
If you can remember what pistol was used for the test.

Chuck Haggard
04-14-2015, 01:39 PM
So, after seeing two Hornady shoots where they did the full FBI test battery in a demo at LE ranges, I was liking what I was seeing with that 135gr +P. I bought some locally to try out since one wants to have a back-up options/s in case they can't get their first choice of carry/duty ammo.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the 135gr +P shoots to the exact same POA=POI as my preferred 124gr +P Gold Dot, and even shoot a tighter group as well. I managed two ten shot groups at the 25 onto a B8 repaid bullseye, all rounds in the black, the ones that weren't my called fliers from the main group being centered in the 10 ring in a group that was 2 1/2" wide.

I know that's not a Molon quality report on accuracy, but I was impressed since I was using a stock gen 3 G17 with a NY1 trigger and Ameriglo sights that covered the entire bull at that range.

JHC
04-14-2015, 02:06 PM
So, after seeing two Hornady shoots where they did the full FBI test battery in a demo at LE ranges, I was liking what I was seeing with that 135gr +P. I bought some locally to try out since one wants to have a back-up options/s in case they can't get their first choice of carry/duty ammo.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the 135gr +P shoots to the exact same POA=POI as my preferred 124gr +P Gold Dot, and even shoot a tighter group as well. I managed two ten shot groups at the 25 onto a B8 repaid bullseye, all rounds in the black, the ones that weren't my called fliers from the main group being centered in the 10 ring in a group that was 2 1/2" wide.

I know that's not a Molon quality report on accuracy, but I was impressed since I was using a stock gen 3 G17 with a NY1 trigger and Ameriglo sights that covered the entire bull at that range.

That load is readily available locally too. The .357 Sig version of that load penetrated exceptionally (about 15" IIRC) after defeating the windshield. That or the Hornady 147 XTP load or a FMJ flat point load might be loadings I pack to Alaska if I might take my G31 along with my 629.

gruntjim
04-15-2015, 10:10 AM
So, after seeing two Hornady shoots where they did the full FBI test battery in a demo at LE ranges, I was liking what I was seeing with that 135gr +P. I bought some locally to try out since one wants to have a back-up options/s in case they can't get their first choice of carry/duty ammo.

I was pleasantly surprised to see that the 135gr +P shoots to the exact same POA=POI as my preferred 124gr +P Gold Dot, and even shoot a tighter group as well. I managed two ten shot groups at the 25 onto a B8 repaid bullseye, all rounds in the black, the ones that weren't my called fliers from the main group being centered in the 10 ring in a group that was 2 1/2" wide.

I know that's not a Molon quality report on accuracy, but I was impressed since I was using a stock gen 3 G17 with a NY1 trigger and Ameriglo sights that covered the entire bull at that range.

What kind of heavy clothing penetration were you seeing? I've been eyeing the same load, for much the same reasons (+P Gold Dot having dried up), and I have a ready source of the Hornady load.

Chuck Haggard
04-15-2015, 10:43 AM
What kind of heavy clothing penetration were you seeing? I've been eyeing the same load, for much the same reasons (+P Gold Dot having dried up), and I have a ready source of the Hornady load.

What I saw a few months ago, and they did the BB confirmation on the gel so the shoot was legit, was in line with what Hornady shows in their 2015 LE catalog (http://www.hornadyle.com/catalog/2015-hornadyle-catalog) , which is less than what Doc tested it at.

I gotta wonder if they tweeked the bullet just a bit for more expansion/less penetration.

gruntjim
04-15-2015, 11:19 AM
thanks for the quick reply; for what it's worth, I think you're right. Hornady is showing a lot of class by being this quick off the mark to improve a product.

Chuck Haggard
04-15-2015, 12:14 PM
I recall Doc testing the then new .38 Critical Defense when it came out. The denim test went very poorly, none of the bullets expanded, Doc talked to someone from Hornady, they sent him redesigned ammo to test in just a few days IIRC, and the tweeked bullets worked as they should have.