Target controversy

[BJJ]

There has been some controversy in the "blog-o-sphere" over targets depicting woman and children threatening deadly force. I thought Greg Ellifritz had a nice article on the subject. Here it is:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-pregnant-woman-target-controversy

Most of my comment on his page: "Nice balanced article. One of my fears as an officer has been hesitating to use deadly force due to the demographics of the person threatening me or another. The uproar over the targets would be a lot more understandable if the women and children in the targets were unarmed."

[Casual Friday]

A threat is a threat. I have no issues with those targets.

[LHS]

They had something similar to this at Gunsite in the early 2000s. I remember running through a wash and ID'ing a large, angry-looking Middle Easterner... holding a bag of peanuts. Next to him was a little old lady pointing a J-frame at me. Guess which one I shot? They had interchangeable accessories precisely so that you'd have to actually ID a threat rather than just shoot the one that 'looked' like a scumbag. Seems legit to me.

[orionz06]

I don't see the issue. A target is a target. How they are used is a whole different game.

[MD7305]

My agency has active shooter specific targets that depict children with weapons, that's a very real threat in today's society. Age or gender doesn't make a threat less deadly. Our basic academy uses a variety of photorealistic targets one of which is a lady with preggers armed with a pistol. It always strikes a nerve with at least one recruit. Another target for traffic stop oriented training has an attractive, well developed lady wearing a super low cut top seated in the drivers seat of a car. If all you see is "pretty girl-BOOOOOOOBS" you miss the pistol she's holding at her waist line pointed at you.

I think at the very least they make you think.

[SGT_Calle]

Another target for traffic stop oriented training has an attractive, well developed lady wearing a super low cut top seated in the drivers seat of a car. If all you see is "pretty girl-BOOOOOOOBS" you miss the pistol she's holding at her waist line pointed at you.

Picture or it didn't happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Casual Friday]

My agency has active shooter specific targets that depict children with weapons, that's a very real threat in today's society. Age or gender doesn't make a threat less deadly. Our basic academy uses a variety of photorealistic targets one of which is a lady with preggers armed with a pistol. It always strikes a nerve with at least one recruit. Another target for traffic stop oriented training has an attractive, well developed lady wearing a super low cut top seated in the drivers seat of a car. If all you see is "pretty girl-BOOOOOOOBS" you miss the pistol she's holding at her waist line pointed at you.

I think at the very least they make you think.


Picture or it didn't happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah we're gonna need some photo evidence.

[MD7305]

For the sake of discussion, I'll try to find it ;)

Here's a couple others.
http://letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=DST-1C
http://letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LE-31
http://letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LE-33
http://letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LE-43

[LHS]

You'd think people would applaud this kind of target diversity. Imagine the hue and cry from the left if all photorealistic targets were minorities...

[Chuck Haggard]

A lot of tin foil hat types think this is for training the guys who jump out of black helicopters to shoot gun owners without thinking twice.

Seriously.

[rsa-otc]

I started using these type targets in decision making training years ago and saw some very eye opening results. Like:

Not seeing the badge on the belt once they saw the gun.

Had one female student cry all the way through a 60 round Q course while shooting at a photorealistic target.

Had one minority student refuse to shoot a similar minority target. Would shoot another races target all day long. That employee didn’t last very long.

When doing stop failure drills on simple blank targets students where spot on, put a picture target up they could not make the head shot while looking into the targets eyes.

I beleive strongly in these targets and at this point at least one training session a year all I use is photorealistic targets to help break down any barriers.

[Jay Cunningham]

A lot of tin foil hat types think this is for training the guys who jump out of black helicopters to shoot gun owners without thinking twice.

Seriously.

If you want to see a great example of mob mentality, go on LE Targets FB page and checkout two posts on there relating to these targets. The mob abitrarily made up a story that DHS specifically requested these targets to train on shooting "patriotic resisting citizens"... like literally they're all lined up on the square range all shooting the pregnant chick and the little kid target.

There's a boycott (from people who have never spent money at LET and never would have) and ranting death threats and all kinds of fun stuff.

It's died down to about 10% of what it was a few days ago, but the embers are still hot. Go ahead and try to reason with the mob... see where that gets you.

[LittleLebowski]

Never, never read the comments. Just don't.

[ffhounddog]

When a kid has a gun pointed at you you will be able to shoot. I did but I was already on condition red. The problem is when they drop the gun and you are in the middle of pulling the trigger here in Conus. What do you do? Shoot or not? These are good targets.

[secondstoryguy]

Great targets and huge training modifier. The haters should just do an image search on Google for "child soldiers" and then get back to me on whether or not a younger person could potentially be a threat.

[Jay Cunningham]

Unfortunately the haters are on "our side"... and they can't be reasoned with. I understand the paranoia to an extent, but it's sad to watch the mindless mob in their frenzy lash at any random thing.

[ffhounddog]

Jay you can take a picture of me in a DHS stuff and then we can make targets? We could make Millions :)

[Jay Cunningham]

Absolutely - about a third of the ranting, screeching posts on LET's FB page were "WHY DON'T YOU MAKE TARGETS OF DHS FOR US TO PRACTICE ON??!1? TRAITORS!!1!1!"

[ffhounddog]

Absolutely - about a third of the ranting, screeching posts on LET's FB page were "WHY DON'T YOU MAKE TARGETS OF DHS FOR US TO PRACTICE ON??!1? TRAITORS!!1!1!"

Dude even better I will wear a FEMA Hat. That will make us infamous :).

I will wear a Glock and have a M4 and boom I will be an internet sensation. Maybe I will carry a box of Krispy Kreams in the other hand.

[MDS]

Dude even better I will wear a FEMA Hat. That will make us infamous :).

I will wear a Glock and have a M4 and boom I will be an internet sensation. Maybe I will carry a box of Krispy Kreams in the other hand.

Kick starter. I smell profit!

[ford.304]

I get where these targets are coming from, but personally I'd like to see some data on the number of officers who were actually shot or injured because they failed to react quickly enough to a pregnant woman with a gun before I think they're worth the damage to the community relationship. I do agree that training people on realistic targets and with varying realistic shoot/no shoot markers is incredibly important. But if the end result is one fewer officer killed in exchange for five kids with toy guns gunned down because the officer's training was to not hesitate, I don't think that's a win for anybody.

[MikeyC]

Dude even better I will wear a FEMA Hat. That will make us infamous :).

I will wear a Glock and have a M4 and boom I will be an internet sensation. Maybe I will carry a box of Krispy Kreams in the other hand.


Kick starter. I smell profit!

I'll throw some investment money in!

[ffhounddog]

Cool I will try and figure this thing out. Need to change my face a little bit them we are golden.

Oh a M40 mask would be the rage.

[JAD]

Absolutely - about a third of the ranting, screeching posts on LET's FB page were "WHY DON'T YOU MAKE TARGETS OF DHS FOR US TO PRACTICE ON??!1? TRAITORS!!1!1!"
DHS does a fine job of making targets of themselves, thank you.

[Chemsoldier]

I get where these targets are coming from, but personally I'd like to see some data on the number of officers who were actually shot or injured because they failed to react quickly enough to a pregnant woman with a gun before I think they're worth the damage to the community relationship. I do agree that training people on realistic targets and with varying realistic shoot/no shoot markers is incredibly important. But if the end result is one fewer officer killed in exchange for five kids with toy guns gunned down because the officer's training was to not hesitate, I don't think that's a win for anybody.

Numbers are pretty hard to gather on these types of incidents. Its even harder to gather hard data on public opinion. For one thing how do we quantify damage done to community relations at this point, when a company has made a product and we have no idea of who is buying them and how many? These targets can doubtlessly be used poorly in training, as can most photo targets...hell most any training evolution can be poorly done. FoF training can be the greatest invention since sliced bread, but I have also been a participant in poorly done FoF and it was a disaster.

Buying a target set of any sort is no substitute for well planned and resourced training. But targets like this can be extreme value added when combined with well done training. They obviously are not designed to be used simply as variety during regular marksmanship training evolutions. However using them in target discrimination drills that do not allow the shooter to see the target set until the last second they can be very valuable. I think these could be a part of an excellent target discrimination program for a department.

So I think we are both in agreement that a well designed program could benefit greatly from these targets combined with other target sets.

[Chuck Haggard]

If you want to see a great example of mob mentality, go on LE Targets FB page and checkout two posts on there relating to these targets. The mob abitrarily made up a story that DHS specifically requested these targets to train on shooting "patriotic resisting citizens"... like literally they're all lined up on the square range all shooting the pregnant chick and the little kid target.

There's a boycott (from people who have never spent money at LET and never would have) and ranting death threats and all kinds of fun stuff.

It's died down to about 10% of what it was a few days ago, but the embers are still hot. Go ahead and try to reason with the mob... see where that gets you.

Exactly the bullshit I was talking about. But then I am probably just a jack-booted thug minion of the coming new world order. The NRA Life membership is just cammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

How about Trooper Vetter failing to shoot a well dressed little old man that he should have burned to the ground?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dbb_1266356082

And what looks like half of the Texas DPS failing to do the same as Vetter bleeds to death?

Just sayin.

[HCM]

But then I am probably just a jack-booted thug minion of the coming new world order. The NRA Life membership is just cammo.

You too ? Shhhhhh !

[LittleLebowski]

How about Trooper Vetter failing to shoot a well dressed little old man that he should have burned to the ground?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dbb_1266356082

And what looks like half of the Texas DPS failing to do the same as Vetter bleeds to death?

Just sayin.

That was pretty rough. Almost as bad as the Dinkheller video. RIP.

[Tamara]

My complaints with the targets are twofold:

1) The name, "No More Hesitation", which then ties into...

2) The perhaps not-too-well-thought-out photo subjects and settings: The calm-looking woman holding the hand of a very non-distressed looking child next to a swing set; is she the suspect or the complainant in the DV 911 call? Smiling little Johnny on the playground. The latter especially is not the kind of target that is going to play well when held up in front of a civil jury should, God forbid, some cap gun wielding tyke get burned down by "ladies and gentleman of the jury, an officer who has been trained, conditioned even, to have, and I quote, 'no more hesitation'."

Tinfoil beanie nonsense from Glenn Beck aside, this is the angle that worries me.

[azant]

These targets are simply designed to help officers understand that they don't know what their imminent lethal threat may look like. A good firearms instructor would preface training with these targets by telling them that the scene depicted could very well be innocent, however in this instance the nice lady with the kid in one hand and gun in the other has told you in a loud voice she is taking the kid to sacrifice on an alter of fire and her finger is even now tightening on the trigger to shoot you because you are in her way. " 2 body 1 head. Ready. Up!" Or whatever range command, whistle, turning target you use. Obviously it is a deadly threat and should be taken care of in the appropriate manner.

Now, the best way to handle these incidents is through role play in force on force situations, except........Gramms who has a tumor and the voices in her head are telling her to kill the police doesn't look like Gramms in force on force training..........she looks like Darth Vader, as does everyone else because of the protective gear. Role playing with Gramms, but without projectile throwers leads officers to not take it as seriously and you are back to will they actually pull the trigger when they need to or will they break down because they aren't prepared?

I would be fully prepared to go into court and answer for that target with the mother and child because we have had a shooting where a mother whose parental rights had been suspended due to drugs and mental instability took her own child hostage and then shot at the police when they were trying to throw a phone in her window to negotiate with her.

Good trainers will use the targets to good effect. Bad trainers will do bad things regardless of what targets you give them.

[Chuck Haggard]

My complaints with the targets are twofold:

1) The name, "No More Hesitation", which then ties into...

2) The perhaps not-too-well-thought-out photo subjects and settings: The calm-looking woman holding the hand of a very non-distressed looking child next to a swing set; is she the suspect or the complainant in the DV 911 call? Smiling little Johnny on the playground. The latter especially is not the kind of target that is going to play well when held up in front of a civil jury should, God forbid, some cap gun wielding tyke get burned down by "ladies and gentleman of the jury, an officer who has been trained, conditioned even, to have, and I quote, 'no more hesitation'."

Tinfoil beanie nonsense from Glenn Beck aside, this is the angle that worries me.

I have to agree with much of what you wrote. The idea has merit, the presentation and delivery need a lot of work.

[azant]

I have to agree with much of what you wrote. The idea has merit, the presentation and delivery need a lot of work.

I have to agree with tpd223 on his reply to Tamara above. The marketing of the targets is a bonafide disaster in progress. I should have included that in my previous post.

[Chemsoldier]

My complaints with the targets are twofold:

1) The name, "No More Hesitation", which then ties into...

2) The perhaps not-too-well-thought-out photo subjects and settings: The calm-looking woman holding the hand of a very non-distressed looking child next to a swing set; is she the suspect or the complainant in the DV 911 call? Smiling little Johnny on the playground. The latter especially is not the kind of target that is going to play well when held up in front of a civil jury should, God forbid, some cap gun wielding tyke get burned down by "ladies and gentleman of the jury, an officer who has been trained, conditioned even, to have, and I quote, 'no more hesitation'."

Tinfoil beanie nonsense from Glenn Beck aside, this is the angle that worries me.

I cant disagree with any of that other than to say that the trainer supervising the evolution is much more responsible for providing the context of the scenario than the target is. I find the expressions on the targets to be incongruous but I dont suppose they will all be snarling with fangs bared either. I bet that psycho Jodi Arias did what she did within an expression that could have ranged between mild interest to a wane smile...perhaps even no visible emotion whatever.