The "new" J-frame

[DocGKR]

Admit it, many folks find themselves with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.

The other evening I was walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and they rudely attempted to block my passage and harass me.

Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.

I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame. If this situation had instead gone badly, I would have felt much more confident with 15 rounds on tap in a G19—the equivalent of carrying three J-frames. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.

My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I no longer am comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!

[JM Campbell]

Observations to live by. Thank you for posting.

[ToddG]

Glad everything turned out all right. No argument here, snubbies and mouse guns as primaries has never been a good idea in my book.

[LittleLebowski]

A dog and a G19. Self defense perfection.

[ghettomedic]

Thanks for sharing, Doc. Your incident reminds me of the story (possibly apocryphal) of the lawman who faced down a number of armed adversaries with only 6 rounds of .38 in his duty revolver. "You might kill me," he said to the thugs who had him encircled, "but I aim to take 2 or 3 of you with me." Glad to hear you were able to deescalate.

A few years ago, when I was more of a CCW neophyte than I am now, a S&W 442 was my daily companion. This was before my discovery of the many excellent firearms forums such as M4C, FTTN and PF.com and the excellent advice contained within.

For years I spouted the rhetoric of the j-frame party line. "Better than the Glock I left at home!" and "If I can't get it done in 5 shots, I can't get it done!" were my rally cries. The more I trained, read and learned the more I realized that the number of adversaries I might face in a given scenario would always be one more than I'd prefer and that, as Col. Cooper said, "Statistics are cold comfort when you find your case was the rare exception."

For those still carrying a j-frame or other small-framed revolver, I would behoove you to re-evaluate your situation. The j-frame is a notoriously difficult gun to shoot accurately under stress (the inherent accuracy of mine has been VERY surprising when shot from a bench) and requires frequent practice to master the long DA trigger pull and mitigate the not-insignificant recoil with defensive ammo. For those who still choose to carry a small revolver, I can conceive of no better hardware investment than a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips. The difference in getting accurate shots on target under low-light conditions with a laser and without is (pardon the pun) night and day and many world-renowned trainers like Vickers and Hackathorn have espoused the virtues of the CT lasers on small guns. My own gun wears the LG-405s and I've not found a single circumstance where I would rather have had the stock santoprene grips.

Does the small .38 caliber revolver still have a place in the armamentarium of the gun-toter? Of course it does. There are few other options that match the reliability, power, concealability, availability and simplicity of the 5-shot revolver. For me, the j-frame is still my constant companion; it just serves its role in an ankle or weak-side pocket holster as a BUG now and I always carry a reload. There are still occasions where it serves as the only gun I have on my person (such as now, as it sits in the pocket of my bathrobe while I drink my coffee and browse PF.com) but the days of leaving the house with only 5 rounds of .38+P at the ready are over for me.

[part-time shooter]

I'm terribly guilty of this, especially in the summer. I've got a worked over PT3AT in a kydex pocket holster that I carry in my off hand pocket as a BuG or primary for most of the warm months. I'd have picked up the Ruger but it didn't exist at the time and the KT has been flawless for me, with hardball and that's what I carry in it. It's just a pitiful choice if I need a weapon.

I rarely shoot it as it's recoil is brutul but it's very small and very easy to carry and I WILL carry it daily, which is the point. I don't have to dress around it, just stick it in my pocket and go. It's fairly accurate out to 30 feet if needed and can be emptied very quickly at "bad breath" range. Yes I carry a spare mag for it too.

The G19 sized weapons are not and I'm now searching for something in 9mm that's almost as small or easy to carry every time I leave the house. The normal compacts are just not quite small enough for that and I do not care for revolvers. i.e. the G26's or M&P9c. They are close and I do like that size but in many cases I can carry the full size just as easily as the compact so that's what I do.

It's with me at the grocery store or gas station or walking the dog or at the mall or anywhere else I go. I will have that mouse gun. It's as easy to carry as my keys or billfold. I'm sure I'm not alone in this either. It's just to easy to think you'll never need the full size for this quick run for milk or butter or bread or whatever and I tuck the 380in my pocket and go as it's "better than nothing".

I know better but I do it anyway and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

[TGS]

Good to see everything turned out alright for you.

I usually carry my P2000 in a CCC Looper, but there are still situations when a 5 shot revolver is a better choice. Changing in and out of cave diving gear 4 times a day in public places using your car as a bench makes carrying a snubbie much more attractive, even if your potential attacker is most likely a meth head. I carry a gun to increase my safety, not to deal with 100% of the situations that may arise. Besides, if you had drawn a j-frame, you may have only had 5 shots but I'd be pretty sure that none of those 7 wanted to be the first to get shot......

The whole thing about taking the pocket pistol because "I'm running out to the corner store at night for milk" is the one that always gets me. That's the exact situation you want more, and slipping on an appendix holster for your *insert service pistol here* while in the kitchen isn't exactly tasking.....

[Shellback]

Glad everything worked out in your favor. My G19 is my constant companion and the J-frame is relegated to drawer duty most of the time.

[ToddG]

I carry a gun to increase my safety, not to deal with 100% of the situations that may arise.

No single weapon can be counted upon to be the total solution for 100% of possible events. But choosing to handicap yourself with a low-capacity slow-to-reload weapon is a lot different than saying, "I can't carry my optic-equipped suppressed WML'd SBR everywhere I go."


Besides, if you had drawn a j-frame, you may have only had 5 shots but I'd be pretty sure that none of those 7 wanted to be the first to get shot......

I absolutely despise that line of reasoning.

If simply displaying a gun is all that's necessary, why go to the trouble and expense of purchasing a regulated firearm? Why go to the trouble and expense of learning to shoot? Just buy a blank firing prop gun. It will have the exact same psychological effect on potential threats and you'll save yourself hundreds if not thousands of dollars and all that silly time wasted practicing.

I certainly can't speak for DocGKR, but my guess is that he didn't want to rely on the psychological impact of a displayed weapon against a group of guys who may, for all we know, see guns pointed at themselves and others on a daily basis.

Are there times when a snubby/mousegun may be the only option you can conceal? Sure. And in those circumstances it's certainly better to have the snub/mouse than no gun at all. But let's not kid ourselves into a false sense of security and the en vogue belief that tiny guns are "good enough most of the time." Because cliche as it may be, the reality is that there's never been anyone who survived a gunfight and said, "Damn, I wish I'd had a smaller gun."

[SLG]

No single weapon can be counted upon to be the total solution for 100% of possible events. But choosing to handicap yourself with a low-capacity slow-to-reload weapon is a lot different than saying, "I can't carry my optic-equipped suppressed WML'd SBR everywhere I go."

I prefer to "handicap yourself with a low-capacity slow-to-reload weapon". As the Spanish fencing wizard Inigo Montoyo said, "Well, is only way I can be satisfied. If I use my right... over too quickly.":cool:

[TGS]

I prefer to "handicap yourself with a low-capacity slow-to-reload weapon". As the Spanish fencing wizard Inigo Montoyo said, "Well, is only way I can be satisfied. If I use my right... over too quickly.":cool:


Hahahaha!

Todd, point taken.

[Rverdi]

In addition to capacity and ability to quickly reload, which are certainly important, we have to distill our pistol choice down to the root of what we do with a pistol.

We carry a pistol to fight with and it stand to reason that we should pick the tool that we fight the best with even if it takes a bit more thought and dedication to conceal it.

Let's face it, if we are selected to shoot a match with a 7 figure prize, none of us is going to look in the safe and pick the J Frame. We want to win the cash so we'll pick the pistol we feel gives us the best chance of winning. I would submit the stakes are much higher when our street gun clears the holster.

Carrying a firearm for self defense requires some thought and some of that thought involves "why" we carry. If we truly think that thru, we'll never carry a mouse gun.

[BigT]

Unfortunately when things go smoothly for a long time it becomes a little too easy to convince yourself that smaller and smaller guns will do the job. It's always a good thing when the reminder is one where no one is hurt.

Thanks for the reminder Doc.

[NickA]

To me even the "showing a gun ending the fight" argument calls for a bigger gun. Wasn't it Clint Smith that said "yes it's big when I carry it, and it's big when I pull it out too?" Or words to that effect. Not sure if that's what he meant, but I'll take all the intimidation factor I can get.

[David]

they make big intimidating revolvers.

[TGS]

they make big intimidating revolvers.

I totally pocket carry my BUG all the time. S&W X-frame snubbie, .500 Mag. It backs up my Automag.

[SmokeJumper]

Glad the scenario turned out ok for ya. The J-frame has it's role, for me that is my BUG gun. Certain scenarios/duties may dictate limited options where a snubbie is the most logical given the attire for the task at hand. But I always try to stay with a full size or compact auto for regular carry.

[David]

I totally pocket carry my BUG all the time. S&W X-frame snubbie, .500 Mag. It backs up my Automag.

BIIIIIIIIIIIG pockets!

[TGS]

BIIIIIIIIIIIG pockets!

I betcha you could do it with those crazy concealed carry khakis! They've got some sort of special pocket with a snap opening...

[Joe in PNG]

Something that happened here in PNG this weekend: Chinese man killed while fighting rapist (http://http://www.thenational.com.pg/?q=node/18628)

I don't know what kind of gun he had, or how many shots he had in it. But it was not enough.

[David Armstrong]

I like the j-frame. IMO it is one of the finest CCW guns available for most folks. It is small enough that they will carry it regularly and large enough that it will solve most problems we encounter. In spite of all the talk about how inadequate it is when we look back at its use through history we find it seems to have worked rather well when stoked with good ammunition. For SD distances it provides excellent accuracy. It lends itself to a wide number of variations so someone can find pretty much whatever they need to fit their circumstances. Are you going to fight off a dozen BGs intent on doing you evil with it? No, probably not. But truth be told you are probably not going to do that with your compact 1911, or your G26 or whatever else you are carrying concealed. And let's be honest about it, folks....if the gun were really that bad, would so many carry it as a BUG? After all, if you are down to the using the BUG isn't that the time you are wanting the best thing you can get your hands on? If one is willing to say the j-frame is the go-to gun when things are really desperate is it really that bad?
:confused:

[Rains on Parades]

First let's get the last statement out of the way. Mentioning the number of people that carry a J-frame as a recommendation as to it's appropriateness is known as an appeal to the people. It doesn't take too much mental gymnastics to think of all of the popular(and yet completely wrong) things that people think and do on a regular basis. What "so many" people do should never be the basis upon which you judge right from wrong.

Second it's about risk analysis. The likely hood that you will need 1 firearm to deal with a problem is much higher than the likely hood that you will need 2, which is much higher than the likely hood that you will need 3 and so on.

Sure you would be most safe if you could walk around with your carbine, body armor, tactical vest and 7 mags, two BUGs and hell let's throw in a SWAT squad as back up. Absolutely even carrying a full-sized handgun is a compromise. But you have to at some point make a decision about what's safest vs what's most practical. The factors that go into making a gun a fighting weapon are not mysterious, reliability, controllability, accuracy, capacity. And a J-frame comes up short when compared to a full-sized auto on 3 out of 4 of those. Would it be better to carry 2 fullsized pistols? Tactically maybe. But the risk that you might need a second gun is probably low enough that practicality weighs in at that point and says "you know maybe we can just take the J-frame".

Absolutely at times it may be the best choice. But you should make that choice being truthful to yourself about the limitations that you are signing up for as well as the reasons. Do you pick a J-frame because it is truly the best for the situation, or just because you can't be assed to carry something more substantial.

[LittleLebowski]

First let's get the last statement out of the way. Mentioning the number of people that carry a J-frame as a recommendation as to it's appropriateness is known as an appeal to the people. It doesn't take too much mental gymnastics to think of all of the popular(and yet completely wrong) things that people think and do on a regular basis. What "so many" people do should never be the basis upon which you judge right from wrong.

Second it's about risk analysis. The likely hood that you will need 1 firearm to deal with a problem is much higher than the likely hood that you will need 2, which is much higher than the likely hood that you will need 3 and so on.

Sure you would be most safe if you could walk around with your carbine, body armor, tactical vest and 7 mags, two BUGs and hell let's throw in a SWAT squad as back up. Absolutely even carrying a full-sized handgun is a compromise. But you have to at some point make a decision about what's safest vs what's most practical. The factors that go into making a gun a fighting weapon are not mysterious, reliability, controllability, accuracy, capacity. And a J-frame comes up short when compared to a full-sized auto on 3 out of 4 of those. Would it be better to carry 2 fullsized pistols? Tactically maybe. But the risk that you might need a second gun is probably low enough that practicality weighs in at that point and says "you know maybe we can just take the J-frame".

Absolutely at times it may be the best choice. But you should make that choice being truthful to yourself about the limitations that you are signing up for as well as the reasons. Do you pick a J-frame because it is truly the best for the situation, or just because you can't be assed to carry something more substantial.

Very well said.

[DocGKR]

An experienced former LE officer with extensive experience who is now one of the of the best LE trainers I know made the following comments about this very subject at LF:


"I have been in a dis-proportionate number of off-duty altercations and incidents in my life. I don't know why, but shit just seems to find me. Several of these incidents have ended in extreme levels of violence. I have learned several things.

Have a REAL gun: I cannot think of one single incident in which a 5 shot J frame would be a good choice. In at least two of the cases, I was armed with the "perfect solution to the problem" by shear luck. In one case, a high end custom 1911 in high quality leather was ideal. This incident was going to require a clean draw and a single precision head shot at approximately 5 yards to solve the problem had things progressed. In another case having a Glock 9 mm with 2 spare magazines and a 30 rounder nearby was about ideal (in the having a single concealed handgun kind of scenario) for dealing with five gang members who were vehicle born and responsible for a rash of armed robberies in which a shotgun was their primary weapon.

The environment you are normally in and the local laws will often play a big part in your selection of appropriate firearms and carry systems. If I am limited by local laws to ten rounds, I like them to be of the .45 ACP variety. If there is a good possibility of dealing with multiple suspects, then a modern polymer 9mm is a solid choice. Its kind of funny-I was just talking to Pat Rogers the other day and made the comment that I am hoping that I can move to a place where carrying a 1911 and a single spare magazine will be sufficient. For now, it is a Glock 9mm and lots of spare magazines."

[MDS]

Do you pick a J-frame because it is truly the best for the situation, or just because you can't be assed to carry something more substantial.

I'm very, very far from being an experienced CCW'er. But it only took me about 6 months to realize that my USP45c was almost as easy to carry as my J frame. The difference in comfort is minimal, while the difference in effectiveness is much more substantial. Now that I carry a G19, the comfort difference is even less, and the difference in effectiveness is arguably even more. If you "can't be assed" to carry a G19 vs. a J frame, you've got a pretty low threshold of what you're willing to be assed to do...

I inherited my J frame from my father, so I've definitely got a soft spot for it. It's been very useful to me for trigger practice, and for high-recoil ball-and-dummy drills to Fight the Flinch. But the Flinch is the only thing I see myself fighting with a snubby, anymore.

[jslaker]

It is small enough that they will carry it regularly

To be honest, I think this is the biggest "problem" with the average concealed carrier. Much in the same way that I think most haven't fully considered the gravity of using a firearm on another human being.

[Joe in PNG]

But as the old saying goes, isn't the perfect the enemy of the good enough?
As was mentioned earlier, even a pistol is a compromise compared to an assault rifle or shotgun.
...but...
-What about when you're changing your brakes on a hot day? Or got a car up on a rack and whatever is in your waistband will be exposed to all the world?
-Working a job where you wear a toolbelt?
-What about when you're at the beach? At the pool?

So no, my .25cal Baby Browning isn't going to magically make the baddies run away. It probably won't stop them either. In fact, I see it more as the starter pistol for my "Running Running RUNNING!!!" 100. But, it's a hell lot more effective than the .00zilch Nothing-Diddlysquat I have with me right now.

[TCinVA]

To be honest, I think this is the biggest "problem" with the average concealed carrier. Much in the same way that I think most haven't fully considered the gravity of using a firearm on another human being.

It's interesting to note the correlation between one's assessment of "good enough" and whether or not an individual has actually had to reach for a handgun to solve a problem. I've not kept scientific statistics but I have noted a rather curious pattern: Those individuals who have actually had to solve a problem with a handgun before (either by drawing it as a show of force or actually pulling the trigger) tend to have a much higher estimation of what "good enough" actually is than those who have not. While I know of folks who have successfully used something like a J frame to solve a problem, in the moment they were keenly aware of the limitations of their hardware. There's only so much problem you can solve with a J frame because of the capacity and how difficult they are to use.

I've never had to shoot someone with a J frame but there has been a time or two when I thought I was going to, and I wasn't exactly brimming with confidence. In contrast to that, last Christmas Eve I encountered a vagrant who attempted a strong-arm robbery while I was carrying my P30. I had absolutely zero doubt in my mind about how things would end for him.

When you believe you could be seconds away from actually having to fire a handgun to stop the hostile actions of another human being, your understanding of "good enough" tends to change considerably.

Something is always better than nothing...but something may not be what you want in your hand should things get real on you. Handguns are not magic talismans that ward off evil spirits. They are tools. You need to use one that is adequate to the job at hand.

In these discussions I frequently see the mention of avoidance, deescalation, and escape. I'll go ahead and lay this out there and anyone who wishes to take me to task on it can feel free to do so:

Concepts like avoiding threats, deescalation, and escape are fine and dandy in the moments that precede the one where you reach for a firearm. Once it reaches the point where you're pulling a handgun, however, I hold that it's probably past the point where any of that stuff is a realistic option. When you reach for the handgun you are not reaching for it because you have half a dozen good options on the table to resolve the problem and you just feel like killing someone that day. You're reaching for the handgun because you are down to one extremely unpleasant option. You're pulling that handgun because you're convinced that you need to put bullets into another human being to preserve your existence or to preserve the existence of people you care about.

I'll also point out that you can't exactly call quitsies in the middle of a gunfight. Bad guys can throw up their hands and surrender...you can't. If you've run out of offense before the bad guy is either incapacitated or has decided to rethink his choices in life, he will probably kill you.

Lastly there's the notion of the caliber of threat that the individual faces. There seem to be a lot of people who think that uniformed police officers deal with more severe threats than the average joe or off-duty police officer. I also find this to be an extremely silly assertion. The cop on the street deals with the violent scumbags that walk around in your community breathing free air. The violent scumbags generally end up on the radar of law enforcement because they first victimize someone like you.

The situation where you are actually going to have to pull the trigger is more than likely not one that is under your control. The bad guy you are actually going to have to shoot to stop likely isn't the sort who pisses himself and runs when he meets the slightest resistance. The encounter where you actually have to try and take another human being's life to continue yours or to protect your family is not likely to be one you can rely on to end when it suits you. Once it reaches the point where you are essentially trying to commit homicide, running away is no longer a viable option.

Much of the discussion out there on the internet is based in a fundamentally flawed notion of what a lethal force encounter really is and that trickles into discussions about what is "enough" tool to fix the problem.

[JConn]

It's interesting to note the correlation between one's assessment of "good enough" and whether or not an individual has actually had to reach for a handgun to solve a problem. I've not kept scientific statistics but I have noted a rather curious pattern: Those individuals who have actually had to solve a problem with a handgun before (either by drawing it as a show of force or actually pulling the trigger) tend to have a much higher estimation of what "good enough" actually is than those who have not. While I know of folks who have successfully used something like a J frame to solve a problem, in the moment they were keenly aware of the limitations of their hardware. There's only so much problem you can solve with a J frame because of the capacity and how difficult they are to use.

I've never had to shoot someone with a J frame but there has been a time or two when I thought I was going to, and I wasn't exactly brimming with confidence. In contrast to that, last Christmas Eve I encountered a vagrant who attempted a strong-arm robbery while I was carrying my P30. I had absolutely zero doubt in my mind about how things would end for him.

When you believe you could be seconds away from actually having to fire a handgun to stop the hostile actions of another human being, your understanding of "good enough" tends to change considerably.

Something is always better than nothing...but something may not be what you want in your hand should things get real on you. Handguns are not magic talismans that ward off evil spirits. They are tools. You need to use one that is adequate to the job at hand.

In these discussions I frequently see the mention of avoidance, deescalation, and escape. I'll go ahead and lay this out there and anyone who wishes to take me to task on it can feel free to do so:

Concepts like avoiding threats, deescalation, and escape are fine and dandy in the moments that precede the one where you reach for a firearm. Once it reaches the point where you're pulling a handgun, however, I hold that it's probably past the point where any of that stuff is a realistic option. When you reach for the handgun you are not reaching for it because you have half a dozen good options on the table to resolve the problem and you just feel like killing someone that day. You're reaching for the handgun because you are down to one extremely unpleasant option. You're pulling that handgun because you're convinced that you need to put bullets into another human being to preserve your existence or to preserve the existence of people you care about.

I'll also point out that you can't exactly call quitsies in the middle of a gunfight. Bad guys can throw up their hands and surrender...you can't. If you've run out of offense before the bad guy is either incapacitated or has decided to rethink his choices in life, he will probably kill you.

Lastly there's the notion of the caliber of threat that the individual faces. There seem to be a lot of people who think that uniformed police officers deal with more severe threats than the average joe or off-duty police officer. I also find this to be an extremely silly assertion. The cop on the street deals with the violent scumbags that walk around in your community breathing free air. The violent scumbags generally end up on the radar of law enforcement because they first victimize someone like you.

The situation where you are actually going to have to pull the trigger is more than likely not one that is under your control. The bad guy you are actually going to have to shoot to stop likely isn't the sort who pisses himself and runs when he meets the slightest resistance. The encounter where you actually have to try and take another human being's life to continue yours or to protect your family is not likely to be one you can rely on to end when it suits you. Once it reaches the point where you are essentially trying to commit homicide, running away is no longer a viable option.

Much of the discussion out there on the internet is based in a fundamentally flawed notion of what a lethal force encounter really is and that trickles into discussions about what is "enough" tool to fix the problem.


Yes.

Very, very well said.

[Rains on Parades]

I'm very, very far from being an experienced CCW'er. But it only took me about 6 months to realize that my USP45c was almost as easy to carry as my J frame. The difference in comfort is minimal, while the difference in effectiveness is much more substantial.
It's interesting that I came to similar conclusions from a similar starting point. When I decided that I would start carrying concealed I did a lot of research on carrying guns. And I was pretty set on a j-frame or one of the smaller Kahrs. But the fact was that I just didn't have the cash to buy a new handgun at the time. So I looked to the pistol that I had kept by my bedside for more than 10 years(interestingly enough it is a USP 45c) and started holster shopping instead. I would never turn back. Though I could see moving to a full-sized 9mm in the future.

[LittleLebowski]

Personally, I think the answer to "should I carry a J-frame" is "buy a good holster and belt for what you have."

[ToddG]

It's interesting to note the correlation between one's assessment of "good enough" and whether or not an individual has actually had to reach for a handgun to solve a problem.
<snip>
Much of the discussion out there on the internet is based in a fundamentally flawed notion of what a lethal force encounter really is and that trickles into discussions about what is "enough" tool to fix the problem.

Bravo.

[WobblyPossum]

TC, that was easily one of the best explanations I have every read regarding anything. A lot of food for thought in your post.

[Shellback]

Lastly there's the notion of the caliber of threat that the individual faces. There seem to be a lot of people who think that uniformed police officers deal with more severe threats than the average joe or off-duty police officer. I also find this to be an extremely silly assertion. The cop on the street deals with the violent scumbags that walk around in your community breathing free air. The violent scumbags generally end up on the radar of law enforcement because they first victimize someone like you.

Great post as usual TC. I think this is a very valid point and it should be emphasized that many "non-gun" people typically assert that gun owners aren't cops so they don't "need" to carry a gun. The threat is out there, in your community, and it's real. How you choose to do deal with those threats or not is ultimately up to each individual to decide.

[Plan]

As much as I am a fan of the S&W J-frame, my 642 has largely been relegated to around-the-house/lawn mowing duty, or use as a backup weapon. Maybe several years ago I would have felt comfortable with it as a primary, but not so much now. I think it also does extremely well in the niche of contact-distance situations, such as while fighting a violent subject or inside a vehicle.

People can debate for hours about the theoretical benefits of carrying a snubnosed revolver over a larger handgun ("it's better than my .45 in the safe!") but I think the best reality check you can have is to go to an actual, real life shooting scene and see the realities of combat... The blood, broken glass, and shell casings littering the ground. And given that in most situations all of the rounds fired in the conflict were fired in a few seconds means that the j-frame will not keep your end of the fight going for very long before it's time to execute what would probably feel like the world's longest reload.

And yes, I realize that there are many "low risk" situations in which a snubnosed revolver could be considered acceptable. But as DocGKR pointed out, it really isn't THAT much more difficult to conceal a compact or subcompact handgun, and you gain a pretty significant increase in performance.

[David Armstrong]

First let's get the last statement out of the way. Mentioning the number of people that carry a J-frame as a recommendation as to it's appropriateness is known as an appeal to the people. It doesn't take too much mental gymnastics to think of all of the popular(and yet completely wrong) things that people think and do on a regular basis. What "so many" people do should never be the basis upon which you judge right from wrong.
While I can agree with the basic concept, I question it in this context. The J-frame is not just something that many people have chosen, it is also something that many people across many walks of life with many different needs and with many different skill levels have chosen, and for many the reason behind the choice is in-depth study and analysis of the issue. So we go far beyond the simple "appeal to the people", IMO.

Second it's about risk analysis.
Yes, and when we get down to it the person who is prepared for 99.99% of the problems isn't that different from the guy that is prepared for 99.999%/

The factors that go into making a gun a fighting weapon are not mysterious, reliability, controllability, accuracy, capacity. And a J-frame comes up short when compared to a full-sized auto on 3 out of 4 of those.
I disagree. Staying within the context of CCW in particular, the J-frame provides top-notch reliability, adequate accuracy for the job, and is quite controllable in many of it's forms. The issue of capacity is in large part an issue of tactics.

Absolutely at times it may be the best choice. But you should make that choice being truthful to yourself about the limitations that you are signing up for as well as the reasons. Do you pick a J-frame because it is truly the best for the situation, or just because you can't be assed to carry something more substantial.
Carrying something more substantial is not the best for the situation either. It is a different compromise point on a line, and I really question the idea that anything beyond the basic "enough for the situation" is a substantially better compromise than any other point.

[David Armstrong]

To be honest, I think this is the biggest "problem" with the average concealed carrier. Much in the same way that I think most haven't fully considered the gravity of using a firearm on another human being.
You may be right, but problem or not that is the reality of what we have to deal with. I agree, life might be much different if everyone was a dedicated gun carrier and went to lots of training and so on. Although I will point out that I am a dedicated gun carrier who went to lots of training and has had plenty of experiences, and a J-frame has been one of my most common primary carry guns (an Airweight, in my case) for most of 20 years.

[LittleLebowski]

DavidA, since you believe capacity is directly related to tactics, what would you have done differently in DocGKR's situation should you had to defend yourself?

[fuse]

But the Flinch is the only thing I see myself fighting with a snubby, anymore.

Nice quote.

[Rains on Parades]

While I can agree with the basic concept, I question it in this context. The J-frame is not just something that many people have chosen, it is also something that many people across many walks of life with many different needs and with many different skill levels have chosen, and for many the reason behind the choice is in-depth study and analysis of the issue. So we go far beyond the simple "appeal to the people", IMO.
Just to be clear "appeal to the people" is not why the people formally mentioned were chosing a j-frame; but rather the name of the logical fallacy that you were using. Argumentum Ad Populum: The incorrect assumption that because many people believe a thing, that that thing is true. Of course people have reasons for choosing whatever firearm they do. People have reasons for doing everything they do. The stupidest most ridiculous actions and choices in the world were made because of reasons.

It's not enough to say "Lot's of people do this for really good reasons after in-depth study". What study? What reasons? That is what we need for the discussion.


Yes, and when we get down to it the person who is prepared for 99.99% of the problems isn't that different from the guy that is prepared for 99.999%/
These are of course numbers that you just made up based upon standards that you haven't specified.


I disagree. Staying within the context of CCW in particular, the J-frame provides top-notch reliability, adequate accuracy for the job, and is quite controllable in many of it's forms. The issue of capacity is in large part an issue of tactics.
Again it's a question of unspecified standards. If you set your standards of success at the level that a j-frame excels at then yah the j-frame does great. That's not to say that it comes anywhere near the same levels of a full-sized auto though. It's kind of like saying "I can get this screw out with a butter knife, so that means that a butter knife is the correct tool for the job" You just better hope no one used locktite on that screw. Reliablility of course is the gimme for the j-frame. And it's accuracy will indeed be adequate for the job...Of the jobs that the accuracy of a j-frame is adequate for. Which is not the same amount of jobs that a full-sized pistol is adequate for(which includes all of those that the j-frame rates at). The same is said of controllability.


Carrying something more substantial is not the best for the situation either. It is a different compromise point on a line, and I really question the idea that anything beyond the basic "enough for the situation" is a substantially better compromise than any other point.
When I was an infantryman the general rule for engaging an enemy was as long as we outnumbered them 3 to 1. If you can help it you don't go into a fight(for your life) with "enough for the situation". You go in with as much overkill as you can possibly bring.

And an important factor here that mariodsantana brought up earlier is that for most applications the trade off for carrying a full-sized pistol is extremely small. I'm wearing my HK USP .45c right now. In my pajamas, in a bellyband holster. I am not the least uncomfortable, I fell asleep on the couch like this just a week ago.

I would like to reiterate that I'm not saying that there isn't times when the j-frame is the correct choice. I just don't think it's all that often.

[David Armstrong]

DavidA, since you believe capacity is directly related to tactics, what would you have done differently in DocGKR's situation should you had to defend yourself?
I don't see any need to do anything differently. It sounds like Doc defended himself just fine. The entire affair was handled without any need to resort to gunfire, thus capacity really didn't play much of a part.

[LittleLebowski]

I don't see any need to do anything differently. It sounds like Doc defended himself just fine. The entire affair was handled without any need to resort to gunfire, thus capacity really didn't play much of a part.

You misunderstood what I said. I believe you are missing out on a rational understanding of "preparing for the worst, hoping for the best."

So precisely how much more comfort whilst carrying is worth forgoing the better ballistics, capacity, accuracy, and reliability offered by say, a Glock 19 over a J frame? At what point did you decide that comfort trumps all?

[David Armstrong]

Just to be clear "appeal to the people" is not why the people formally mentioned were choosing a j-frame; but rather the name of the logical fallacy that you were using.
Just to be clear, I reject the notion that the statement was being used as an appeal to the people. Factual statements usually are just that, factual statements offered as part of a discussion.

It's not enough to say "Lot's of people do this for really good reasons after in-depth study". What study? What reasons? That is what we need for the discussion.
Really? Strange, I don't see any reference to studies on the opposing viewpoint, just opinions and some things that I think you would point out as "logical fallacies" if I were making them. I believe I gave some pretty good reasons.

These are of course numbers that you just made up based upon standards that you haven't specified.
Since it seems you want to nitpick, no, those are not numbers that I made up based on unspecified standards. I made no claim about what those numbers applied to. I simply point out that often we get to the point where minuscule improvements really don't change things very much.

Again it's a question of unspecified standards. If you set your standards of success at the level that a j-frame excels at then yah the j-frame does great. That's not to say that it comes anywhere near the same levels of a full-sized auto though.
But that is your fallacy. I'm not saying anything about it being at the same level as a full-size auto (which you have failed to define, BTW). I am saying that the j-frame has been used for a long time for SD purposes and it seems to have worked quite well. To me, BTW, that is the only standard that matters...does it adequately perform the job. What is better or worse is rather irrelevant as that is strictly an opinon issue. Is .45 better than 9mm? Is Glock better than Colt? Is DAO better than DA/SA? Really doesn't matter much to me. They are all different, and as long as they will do the job I will work with the differences.

It's kind of like saying "I can get this screw out with a butter knife, so that means that a butter knife is the correct tool for the job" You just better hope no one used locktite on that screw. Reliablility of course is the gimme for the j-frame. And it's accuracy will indeed be adequate for the job...Of the jobs that the accuracy of a j-frame is adequate for. Which is not the same amount of jobs that a full-sized pistol is adequate for(which includes all of those that the j-frame rates at). The same is said of controllability.
But that is true of any firearm. No matter what your personal compromise point is someone else can make a pretty good argument that it is wrong and you need to find another compromise point (which usually just happens to be right where they have decided for their needs!).

When I was an infantryman the general rule for engaging an enemy was as long as we outnumbered them 3 to 1. If you can help it you don't go into a fight(for your life) with "enough for the situation". You go in with as much overkill as you can possibly bring.
I'd first point out that suggested tactics for an infantry squad in a combat zone might not be that applicable to an individual carrying a CCW handgun for self defense. But with that, no, you go in with as much overkill as you think appropriate or that you are willing to carry around with you. You balance your load according to the mission. If you have 15 grenades you don't throw all 15 into one room at the same time just so you can go in with as much overkill as you can possibly bring.

And an important factor here that mariodsantana brought up earlier is that for most applications the trade off for carrying a full-sized pistol is extremely small. I'm wearing my HK USP .45c right now. In my pajamas, in a bellyband holster. I am not the least uncomfortable, I fell asleep on the couch like this just a week ago.
And that is fine. I carried a full-size 1911 for years, then a Glock 17 or a G19 (Whoops! Someone can make a good point that the G19 is not a full size gun, therefore I shouldn't carry it since I have a G17!) for several more years. I can carry any of them now if I wish, and frequently do. But given my situation and my environment I find a J-frame more than adequate to handle pretty much any reasonably expected problem that might come up.

I would like to reiterate that I'm not saying that there isn't times when the j-frame is the correct choice. I just don't think it's all that often.
I would suggest that one can never know if what they are carrying is the correct choice until after the fact. All carry is a compromise, and trying to argue "my compromise is better than your compromise" seems rather questionable

[David Armstrong]

You misunderstood what I said.
No, I answered exactly what you asked. Perhaps you misunderstood what you wrote?

I believe you are missing out on a rational understanding of "preparing for the worst, hoping for the best."
I'm quite aware of that, I simply reject the entire notion. We do not prepare for the worst. We compromise with what we think might realistically happen and how much we are willing to inconvenience ourselves.

So precisely how much more comfort whilst carrying is worth forgoing the better ballistics, capacity, accuracy, and reliability offered by say, a Glock 19 over a J frame? At what point did you decide that comfort trumps all?
Please don't make up positions and then attribute them to me. I have said nothing about comfort trumps all. In fact I reject the idea and think it is rather silly. As for the alleged advantages of a Glock 19 over a J-frame I will again suggest that different does not mean better. One could as well compare a G19 to a G22 to a LW Commander to a Mdl 65 to a PPK to a Sig 229 to an HK USP and so on.

[JConn]

There is an argument that a lot of evangelists use in regards to faith that I believe applies here.

If you're right and carrying a j-frame is completely adequate, and I carry my G19 all my life, well I've just been over prepared and maybe, maybe a little uncomfortable sometimes.

However, if all of these people are correct in saying a j-frame is inadequate, and you end up in a situation where a compact/full size semi auto is necissary, well then you're life or the life of someone you care about could be forfeit.

I know that if I was ever in a situation where my life or my wife's life depended on my skill with a handgun, I would never want to think, "if only I had my G19, but I couldn't be bothered to put it on," or "it's just too uncomfortable."

It just seems like a simple choice to me.

Edit: wow this has gotten heated.

[David]

Do those who carry the G19 over the j frame carry the 33 round mags or the inferior under prepared 15 round mags?






*ducks for cover*

[JConn]

Do those who carry the G19 over the j frame carry the 33 round mags or the inferior under prepared 15 round mags?






*ducks for cover*


Don't make me throw my (unloaded) j-frame at you.

[ToddG]

Do those who carry the G19 over the j frame carry the 33 round mags or the inferior under prepared 15 round mags?

If I could find a reasonable way to dress around my G17 w/33rd mags, I would.

Let me throw your question back at you in reverse: If someone could magically make 10 rounds of .38 +p fit in the same size and weight J with no loss of reliability, durability, accuracy, or safety, would you turn them down because "five is enough?"

[JConn]

Repeat post

[JDM]

To me, a full-size pistol like a G19 or M&P is usually more comfortable than a Snub. It's Thinner, less round and lumpy, and the holster options are FAR better. Everything being equal, I'd rather carry a full size auto strictly from a comfort standpoint.

And as far as capacity, why not carry more if you can? It makes no sense to limit your options without being forced to.

[David]

If I could find a reasonable way to dress around my G17 w/33rd mags, I would.

Let me throw your question back at you in reverse: If someone could magically make 10 rounds of .38 +p fit in the same size and weight J with no loss of reliability, durability, accuracy, or safety, would you turn them down because "five is enough?"

I carry a 21sf so I don't know. :cool: If they made a 33 round mag for the 21 I'd shove a few in in my car. My question had to do with using comfort as an issue being tossed aside. Everyone decides at which point comfort begins to trump firepower.

I know some say they choose firepower over comfort because when the chips are down "thank (insert deity) I brought my (insert kool-aid) and not my (insert bland water)" when in reality at some point in the game comfort ultimately wins out. The only excuse for not carrying a 33 round mag if you carry a G17 or G19 is comfort. You could shove one or two inside the pants or a man-purse if you REALLY wanted maximum firepower.

[peterb]

Does anybody happen to have a side-by-side picture of the G19 and the J-frame they could post? As somebody who has never looked at the two next to each other, I would find it informative.

Not exactly, but here's a G23 and an SP101:
http://www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/anotherview.aspx

[David Armstrong]

There is an argument that a lot of evangelists use in regards to faith that I believe applies here.
And sadly we see another part of that argument which is "I have been given mystical knowledge of what is right and wrong and anybody who disagrees with me cannot be saved."

If you're right and carrying a j-frame is completely adequate, and I carry my G19 all my life, well I've just been over prepared and maybe, maybe a little uncomfortable sometimes.

However, if all of these people are correct in saying a j-frame is inadequate, and you end up in a situation where a compact/full size semi auto is necessary, well then you're life or the life of someone you care about could be forfeit.
Basic problem with that, IMO, is that nothing is adequate for all situations, and history seems to indicate the J-frame is adequate for most situations. I guess I've been around too long and seen too much to think that something that has worked OK for decades is suddenly inadequate just because something different has come along. I can sort of equate it to the old "tactical reload" battles Todd and I used to fight. There are all sorts of "what if" arguments that can be made, but when it gets right down to it those "what if" arguments just don't seem to exist in reality.

I know that if I was ever in a situation where my life or my wife's life depended on my skill with a handgun, I would never want to think, "if only I had my G19, but I couldn't be bothered to put it on," or "it's just too uncomfortable."
I suppose the corollary could be "if only I had my G17 instead of putting on this G19", or "if only I had slipped a 6" .44 Magnum into a shoulder rig today" or "if only I had my .45 today instead of my 9mm" or any other "if."

It just seems like a simple choice to me.
It certainly should be. Each of us has fairly unique needs and situations, thus all of us select a fairly unique compromise point for personal safety. Why anyone should argue one-size-fits-all has never struck me as reasonable.

Edit: wow this has gotten heated.
Hey now, you know the internet CCW rules...If you carry anything less than I do obviously you are an under-prepared incompetent and have no understanding of the actual dangers of the street, and if you carry anything more than I do obviously you are paranoid Rambo-wannabe and have no understanding of the actual dangers of the street!:D

[David Armstrong]

Do those who carry the G19 over the j frame carry the 33 round mags or the inferior under prepared 15 round mags?
*ducks for cover*
Or heaven forbid, one of those (shudder) Glock 27s, with only 10 rounds of .40 S&W!:)

[MDS]

Does anybody happen to have a side-by-side picture of the G19 and the J-frame they could post? As somebody who has never looked at the two next to each other, I would find it informative.

Genitron (http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Compare-Selections.asp?ID1=115&ID2=686) has a nice comparison function.

[TCinVA]

I carry a 21sf so I don't know. :cool: If they made a 33 round mag for the 21 I'd shove a few in in my car. My question had to do with using comfort as an issue being tossed aside. Everyone decides at which point comfort begins to trump firepower.

I know some say they choose firepower over comfort because when the chips are down "thank (insert deity) I brought my (insert kool-aid) and not my (insert bland water)" when in reality at some point in the game comfort ultimately wins out. The only excuse for not carrying a 33 round mag if you carry a G17 or G19 is comfort. You could shove one or two inside the pants or a man-purse if you REALLY wanted maximum firepower.

I don't know about you guys, but I cannot practically conceal a G17 with a 33 round mag stuck in it or practically conceal one of the happy sticks as a reload.

If we tweak the question somewhat and ask whether or not I'd carry a firearm that offered 33 rounds that were just as effective in a package that is as reliable (more reliable than Todd's G17, anyway) and easy to use as a G17, would I carry it?

You bet your sweet bippy I'd carry it.

...because I really believe that I need 33 rounds on tap or I'll die screaming in a gunfight?

No. While it is possible to think up a scenario where I'd wind up dead if I couldn't fire 33 shots without a reload, it's much more likely that such an ammo capacity would last longer than any problem I'm capable of solving with a handgun. At the same time, I don't imagine myself standing in the aftermath of an event where I've just fired 20 rounds and thinking to myself that I really wish I hadn't put those extra 13 in the mag, you know?

In economics there's the law of diminishing marginal utility stating that the utility gained from each additional unit of something consumed decreases, and I think it pairs up nicely with this discussion. Beyond a certain point "more" isn't useful...it's just more. An AR-15 is much "more" for any problem that involves shooting bad guys, but for me the weapon really isn't useful in many situations as I can't go about my life with a rifle strapped across my chest. Though the weapon is objectively "more" the utility for that much "more" is minimal for my purposes. When considering a J frame versus a Glock 19 or a P30, on the other hand, we're talking about "more" that I can actually put to practical use on a day to day basis. That I'll go for. Change the situation from daily carry to dealing with an active shooter 2 minutes from now and I'll give a testicle for the AR15.

I can't carry my typical loadout every day in every situation. There are times when circumstances dictate the J frame in the pocket as my primary means of kinetically pacifying a problem. In those situations it's either carry that or nothing, so I happily carry the J frame. When I'm not bound by those circumstances I eagerly upgrade to my usual loadout and use the J frame as a capable BUG.

When I carry the J frame I'm doing so with an informed judgment. I know the weapon's limitations well and I'm making a bet that I'm probably not going to face a shooting problem in that situation...but if the worst happens and all I have is my J, I'm still infinitely better off having it than not. When I judge that I'm not under the kind of restrictions that make carrying the J my only practical option, I upgrade without hesitation.

It's easy to go with the small gun out of complacency....but if someone is using the small gun based on a rational decision making process and a judgment of their circumstances, you won't hear me argue against it. In the end we all have to make a judgment call one way or another. If someone knows what they are doing, so be it. Often on discussion boards the conversation is ruled by those who don't have a clue what they are doing. That I find irksome...but we generally don't have to worry much about that here.

[David]

I don't know about you guys, but I cannot practically conceal a G17 with a 33 round mag stuck in it or practically conceal one of the happy sticks as a reload.

If we tweak the question somewhat and ask whether or not I'd carry a firearm that offered 33 rounds that were just as effective in a package that is as reliable (more reliable than Todd's G17, anyway) and easy to use as a G17, would I carry it?

You bet your sweet bippy I'd carry it.

...because I really believe that I need 33 rounds on tap or I'll die screaming in a gunfight?

No. While it is possible to think up a scenario where I'd wind up dead if I couldn't fire 33 shots without a reload, it's much more likely that such an ammo capacity would last longer than any problem I'm capable of solving with a handgun. At the same time, I don't imagine myself standing in the aftermath of an event where I've just fired 20 rounds and thinking to myself that I really wish I hadn't put those extra 13 in the mag, you know?

In economics there's the law of diminishing marginal utility stating that the utility gained from each additional unit of something consumed decreases, and I think it pairs up nicely with this discussion. Beyond a certain point "more" isn't useful...it's just more. An AR-15 is much "more" for any problem that involves shooting bad guys, but for me the weapon really isn't useful in many situations as I can't go about my life with a rifle strapped across my chest. Though the weapon is objectively "more" the utility for that much "more" is minimal for my purposes. When considering a J frame versus a Glock 19 or a P30, on the other hand, we're talking about "more" that I can actually put to practical use on a day to day basis. That I'll go for. Change the situation from daily carry to dealing with an active shooter 2 minutes from now and I'll give a testicle for the AR15.

I can't carry my typical loadout every day in every situation. There are times when circumstances dictate the J frame in the pocket as my primary means of kinetically pacifying a problem. In those situations it's either carry that or nothing, so I happily carry the J frame. When I'm not bound by those circumstances I eagerly upgrade to my usual loadout and use the J frame as a capable BUG.

When I carry the J frame I'm doing so with an informed judgment. I know the weapon's limitations well and I'm making a bet that I'm probably not going to face a shooting problem in that situation...but if the worst happens and all I have is my J, I'm still infinitely better off having it than not. When I judge that I'm not under the kind of restrictions that make carrying the J my only practical option, I upgrade without hesitation.

It's easy to go with the small gun out of complacency....but if someone is using the small gun based on a rational decision making process and a judgment of their circumstances, you won't hear me argue against it. In the end we all have to make a judgment call one way or another. If someone knows what they are doing, so be it. Often on discussion boards the conversation is ruled by those who don't have a clue what they are doing. That I find irksome...but we generally don't have to worry much about that here.


It doesn't get much better than that there.

[BigT]

The last two occasions I needed to be armed the bad guys coincidently were in groups of three. Both times they opened proceeding by shooting. Both times I was glad to have a big easy to shoot pistol instead of a small easy to carry one.

Most importantly both were times where I had no reason to expect any greater than normal risk. If I was in the habit of carrying a snubby or pocket pistol when convenient then that's what I would probably have had with me.

I think it was Tom Givens who first described the snubby as a "one bad guy gun" now I know the reality of my world is that one bad guy attacks are about as common as honest politicians and while the risk profile there is probably a fair bit lower I would guess the chances of multiple bad guys are probably still more than one dude robbing you.

[David]

How many shots will you need? How far will you need to shoot? Will there be others near your line of fire? Who knows. Here's the dash-cam from a shooting here in 2009. Would a j frame have done the job?

You may wish to skip ahead to 2:35.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwiN_3IyC2o

[Ed L]

I can't carry my typical loadout every day in every situation. There are times when circumstances dictate the J frame in the pocket as my primary means of kinetically pacifying a problem. In those situations it's either carry that or nothing, so I happily carry the J frame. When I'm not bound by those circumstances I eagerly upgrade to my usual loadout and use the J frame as a capable BUG.

When I carry the J frame I'm doing so with an informed judgment. I know the weapon's limitations well and I'm making a bet that I'm probably not going to face a shooting problem in that situation...but if the worst happens and all I have is my J, I'm still infinitely better off having it than not. When I judge that I'm not under the kind of restrictions that make carrying the J my only practical option, I upgrade without hesitation.

I think this is the key. Not everyone works where they can dress as they choose in order to conceal whatever they want.

A lot of people have to work in firearms restrictive situations where they must wear dress slacks or even suits. In the workplace they are seen by the same people every day again and again.

Being seen every day in close confines like hallways and copy rooms means that co-workers see them up close regularly and can thus notice things that random people who see them on the street will not get a chance to see. And even if those people in the street did, the gun is legally concealed. Whereas if they work in a gun-prohibited environment, a coworker noticing something suspicious could cost them their job.

For something like this you may need to have a taylor deepen your pants pocket and carry something like a Kahr PM-9 9mm subcompact in a pocket holster since it is smaller and flatter than a J-frame. Most dress pants pockets are too tight and even a Kahr PM-9 will print.

It's one thing to carry a nothing but a suboptimal gun because of work or environmental limitations on the size of what you can conceal. You try to carry the best you can and make the best of it.

It is an entirely different matter to carry it and claim that it is all that you need as though you can control exactly the threats you will face, when you could indeed carry something more capable.

Then there are people who are not willing to carry anything bigger than a J-frame. *Some* defensive situations can indeed be resolved with a J-frame. But hoping that a J-frame can handle most of them or otherwise trying to rationalize it is not a sound strategy.

I see both sides of this issue. A J-frame is a very convenient gun to carry, and it is all some people will carry, or maybe it or something similar in capabilities is the bigges thing that some people can carry given their work or dress requirements. I am glad that they are carrying this as opposed to something less capable or even not carrying anything at all. It is certainly better than the Glock/1911/whatever that they don't have with them, but lets not pretend it is as capable as that gun when it comes to dealing with lethal threats.

If you look at the 60 or 70+ shootings that Tom Givens' students have been in, a lot of them required more than a J-frame both in terms of shots fired and in capability to more accurately place rounds under life or death situations.

If you look at the situation DocGKR described, hopefully 5 rounds from the J-frame might have been enough to do enough damage to some aggressors and/or send the gang scattering.

Or it might not have--not a good position to be in.

What is that saying about hope not being a strategy?

[jslaker]

where they must wear dress slacks or even suits.

I've never really been sympathetic to this argument and this is why:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_5XLLT_qPgmI/TZJlHUYAA7I/AAAAAAAAA4o/nH6zMyCMNDc/s400/IMG_20110329_190135.jpg

That's me. At work. Wearing a USP Compact.

I work in an environment where I'm constantly dealing with people, lifting things, pulling items from shelves, etc. Hiding a compact-size automatic has never been an issue with the right holster. Hell, a suit would make it even easier to hide a gun. ;)

That's not to say there aren't work environments that make it difficult, just that the shirt and tie segment isn't really it, IMO.


It is an entirely different matter to carry it and claim that it is all that you need as though you can control exactly the threats you will face, when you could indeed carry something more capable.

I think this is almost the point of the thread. A J-Frame or other pocketable gun isn't completely without merit, but many people have a tendency to default to them rather than use them as a way of carrying when otherwise impossible.

Worse still are the people who actively advocate pocket guns because "you won't actually carry a bigger gun anyway" in gun stores. Then again, bad advice from gun store employees could easily fill its own thread.

[LittleLebowski]

No, I answered exactly what you asked. Perhaps you misunderstood what you wrote?


I admittedly "what-iffed" a scenario where DocGKR had to use the J-frame. I pointed a question to you. I think you missed what I wrote.

Here's my question again:


What would you have done differently in DocGKR's situation should you had to defend yourself?

[David Armstrong]

I admittedly "what-iffed" a scenario where DocGKR had to use the J-frame. I pointed a question to you. I think you missed what I wrote.

Here's my question again:
Again, I see no need to do anything different. He defended himself with strong vocal presence, a dog and a light and had success. He had a firearm available if he had needed to move to another level of defense. Why should I suggest there was anything wrong with his solution?

[LittleLebowski]

He didn't actually defend himself because he didn't have to engage.

[David Armstrong]

How many shots will you need? How far will you need to shoot? Will there be others near your line of fire? Who knows. Here's the dash-cam from a shooting here in 2009. Would a j frame have done the job?
Not to snipe at you, David, it's just that the video you offered leads to it so well:

Would a 1911 have done the job? Would a K-frame .357 have done the job? Would a PPK have done the job? Would anyone recommend a j-frame as a duty weapon for uniformed officers in the U.S.?

It is very easy to pose questions, and no matter what the answer it can be shown to be wrong given the right set of circumstances. Heck, give me the right set of circumstances I can make a good case for a NAA mini-derringer being a better choice than a G17. But real life doesn't work that way. There is a tendency for people (and it seems particularly problematic with gun people) anytime something new comes along to either declare none of the old stuff now works (in spite of it working fine for 50 years) or the counterpart of it's so new and complicated that it will get you killed. Neither position is necessarily accurate.

It's fairly simple, IMO...In the context of CCW and self defense the j-frame revolver has a fairly well documented history of success and given the context of DGU in the U.S. today nothing has shown that it is now inadequate to do the job it has done so well for so long. There certainly are different options available, and there are certainly situations where a j-frame is not a particularly good choice. But no matter what you choose you are making a compromise in your weaponry. Arguing that one person's compromise based on their needs and situation is wrong because of your needs and situation is questionable.

[David Armstrong]

He didn't actually defend himself because he didn't have to engage.
I think you may be trying to argue semantics. I would certainly suggest that his actions would be considered as defending himself. He indicates that he felt threatened, and he took action to counter that threat. Defense does not have to be guns, knives and fists. And he certainly engaged them...verbal commands and use of light in an offensive technique to de-escalate the situation.

[David]

Not to snipe at you, David, it's just that the video you offered leads to it so well:

Would a 1911 have done the job? Would a K-frame .357 have done the job? Would a PPK have done the job? Would anyone recommend a j-frame as a duty weapon for uniformed officers in the U.S.?

No snipe taken :cool: I have no clue what would have done the job "better" in this case. I know the KCPD carry Glock 22's and even after all you see in this video the suspect did not die instantly. He died shortly thereafter but he took several hits from a .40 with most being after he was down and within 15 yards, the officer reloads twice. I have opinions on the performance of the officers in the video but I'm keeping that to myself.


It is very easy to pose questions, and no matter what the answer it can be shown to be wrong given the right set of circumstances. Heck, give me the right set of circumstances I can make a good case for a NAA mini-derringer being a better choice than a G17. But real life doesn't work that way.

I agree, this is why I posted this video. Over 20 rounds of .40 didn't work any magic here. This was just one guy too, if he would have had 6 friends with him then how would have this ended differently?


It's fairly simple, IMO...In the context of CCW and self defense the j-frame revolver has a fairly well documented history of success and given the context of DGU in the U.S. today nothing has shown that it is now inadequate to do the job it has done so well for so long. There certainly are different options available, and there are certainly situations where a j-frame is not a particularly good choice. But no matter what you choose you are making a compromise in your weaponry. Arguing that one person's compromise based on their needs and situation is wrong because of your needs and situation is questionable.

You get no argument from me. I am partial to revolvers and prefer them over autos but it's only because they are what I have more experience with. I'm not picking any sides in this discussion since I think valid arguments can be made for both positions and it seems to me it ends up in being personal preference. To think one is magical while the other is instant defeat seems silly to me.

[LittleLebowski]

I think you may be trying to argue semantics. I would certainly suggest that his actions would be considered as defending himself. He indicates that he felt threatened, and he took action to counter that threat. Defense does not have to be guns, knives and fists. And he certainly engaged them...verbal commands and use of light in an offensive technique to de-escalate the situation.

Fair enough. I was referring to an actual physical attack.

[ToddG]

Personally, I am finding the debate pretty interesting.

That's what we're here for!

[fuse]

the J frame in the pocket as my primary means of kinetically pacifying a problem.

Another awesome one-liner. Love these little slogans here

[David Armstrong]

Fair enough. I was referring to an actual physical attack.
OK then, we are looking at a hypothetical instead of the actual event. To which I can only say "who knows." As it is hypothetical there are a multitude of hypothetical answers. I might have yelled at them to back off before I have to shoot and they might have all turned tail and ran. They might have ran away because they saw me pull out my gun, whatever it was. I might have needed to shoot one, and all the others would run away screaming in panic. they might have pressed an attack and I would have had to go into steely eyed dealer of death mode and shot the first 5 with one perfectly placed round each, then knocked the last one out with my walking stick. Hard to say. Personally I think it would have gone pretty much along the "go away boys, you want to find an easier target" lines of the original incident.

[stingray]

Admit it, many folks find themselves with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.

The other evening I was walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and they rudely attempted to block my passage and harass me.

Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.

I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame. If this situation had instead gone badly, I would have felt much more confident with 15 rounds on tap in a G19—the equivalent of carrying three J-frames. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.

My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I no longer am comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!

My 642 is the gun I carry when I go unarmed.

[stingray]

It's interesting to note the correlation between one's assessment of "good enough" and whether or not an individual has actually had to reach for a handgun to solve a problem. I've not kept scientific statistics but I have noted a rather curious pattern: Those individuals who have actually had to solve a problem with a handgun before (either by drawing it as a show of force or actually pulling the trigger) tend to have a much higher estimation of what "good enough" actually is than those who have not. While I know of folks who have successfully used something like a J frame to solve a problem, in the moment they were keenly aware of the limitations of their hardware. There's only so much problem you can solve with a J frame because of the capacity and how difficult they are to use.

I've never had to shoot someone with a J frame but there has been a time or two when I thought I was going to, and I wasn't exactly brimming with confidence. In contrast to that, last Christmas Eve I encountered a vagrant who attempted a strong-arm robbery while I was carrying my P30. I had absolutely zero doubt in my mind about how things would end for him.

When you believe you could be seconds away from actually having to fire a handgun to stop the hostile actions of another human being, your understanding of "good enough" tends to change considerably.

Something is always better than nothing...but something may not be what you want in your hand should things get real on you. Handguns are not magic talismans that ward off evil spirits. They are tools. You need to use one that is adequate to the job at hand.

In these discussions I frequently see the mention of avoidance, deescalation, and escape. I'll go ahead and lay this out there and anyone who wishes to take me to task on it can feel free to do so:

Concepts like avoiding threats, deescalation, and escape are fine and dandy in the moments that precede the one where you reach for a firearm. Once it reaches the point where you're pulling a handgun, however, I hold that it's probably past the point where any of that stuff is a realistic option. When you reach for the handgun you are not reaching for it because you have half a dozen good options on the table to resolve the problem and you just feel like killing someone that day. You're reaching for the handgun because you are down to one extremely unpleasant option. You're pulling that handgun because you're convinced that you need to put bullets into another human being to preserve your existence or to preserve the existence of people you care about.

I'll also point out that you can't exactly call quitsies in the middle of a gunfight. Bad guys can throw up their hands and surrender...you can't. If you've run out of offense before the bad guy is either incapacitated or has decided to rethink his choices in life, he will probably kill you.

Lastly there's the notion of the caliber of threat that the individual faces. There seem to be a lot of people who think that uniformed police officers deal with more severe threats than the average joe or off-duty police officer. I also find this to be an extremely silly assertion. The cop on the street deals with the violent scumbags that walk around in your community breathing free air. The violent scumbags generally end up on the radar of law enforcement because they first victimize someone like you.

The situation where you are actually going to have to pull the trigger is more than likely not one that is under your control. The bad guy you are actually going to have to shoot to stop likely isn't the sort who pisses himself and runs when he meets the slightest resistance. The encounter where you actually have to try and take another human being's life to continue yours or to protect your family is not likely to be one you can rely on to end when it suits you. Once it reaches the point where you are essentially trying to commit homicide, running away is no longer a viable option.

Much of the discussion out there on the internet is based in a fundamentally flawed notion of what a lethal force encounter really is and that trickles into discussions about what is "enough" tool to fix the problem.

You sir, write as if you have been there, done that. Your clarity of thought certainly comes from experience.

[JR1572]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place, but I have a few things to say.

For the last couple of years, I've carried a G19 with a light off duty almost all of the time. If not, I had a 442 and a few reloads. If I left my house, I'm usually in my unmarked unit and it contains two long guns and another pistol.

I like having a handgun on me that holds more than 5 rounds. I also like handguns that have useable sights and are easy to reload.

While I don't mind my 19, I've began to carry my 26 more often. Sure it's smaller, but it holds twice as much as my 442, has sights, and is easy to reload.

Is there any reason why the 26/27/33 don't get much praise? I understand that it has a shorter sight radius and if you add extended floor plates (I don't use them because I have freakishly small hands) it's grip is almost as long as a 19/23/32, but it almost seems that people scoff at the sub-compact Glock's. Right now I have a 26 in an Alessi ankle rig and it feels fine. It complements my light bearing 19 in an ALS just fine.

I like my 442, but my 26 is getting more carry time now.

JR1572

[Rich]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place, but I have a few things to say.

For the last couple of years, I've carried a G19 with a light off duty almost all of the time. If not, I had a 442 and a few reloads. If I left my house, I'm usually in my unmarked unit and it contains two long guns and another pistol.

I like having a handgun on me that holds more than 5 rounds. I also like handguns that have useable sights and are easy to reload.

While I don't mind my 19, I've began to carry my 26 more often. Sure it's smaller, but it holds twice as much as my 442, has sights, and is easy to reload.





Is there any reason why the 26/27/33 don't get much praise? I understand that it has a shorter sight radius and if you add extended floor plates (I don't use them because I have freakishly small hands) it's grip is almost as long as a 19/23/32, but it almost seems that people scoff at the sub-compact Glock's. Right now I have a 26 in an Alessi ankle rig and it feels fine. It complements my light bearing 19 in an ALS just fine.

I like my 442, but my 26 is getting more carry time now.

JR1572

For me I find the compacts just as easy to carry as the sub compacts.

Really I like carrying the compacts more because the sit lower in my waist band.

BTW
I always carry a J frame / BUG and been doing it for decades now. I'm also not in LE just a regular citizen.

Now my father would carry a jframe for SD and last year he sold it and now he doesn't carry anymore. I disagree of coarse and point to the TV when the local news is on showing him the violence 25miles away in Fort Myers

[psalms144.1]

I keep coming back to the statement of a guy I know during a recent "after action" review of an active shooter response (real life, not a drill). For a variety of reasons (none good, by his own admission) he ended up searching for the shooter with only his "backup" Sig P239. After exchanging fire with the BG and having to drag out his shot-up partner to avoid his partner's bleeding out, his comment was: "I will NEVER carry a single-stack pistol EVER again."

Made me glad I live in a climate where carrying a G19 is an "easy do" even in the summer, and a G26 as BUG on the ankle is similarly easy to pull off.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I no longer own any single stack weapons and my lowest capacity is 10. I will not carry anything less than 11-rounds onboard. That's the minimum for me.

[GardoneVT]

Perhaps I am on the fringe with this subject, but there have been people who've faced bad men with full size pistols and been found wanting .

As many cases as there are of evil folk soaking up duty rounds launched from full size guns and still fighting, why would anyone willfully handicap themselves if there's a better option?

[Beat Trash]

My BUG while at work as a uniformed LEO is a M&P Shield 9mm. I can put rounds on target more effectively than my 642 and the capacity and ballistics win out over my 642 J-Frame. I can actually carry a Shield as a BUG for a 10 hour shift and not notice it is there. I can't say the same for a M&P9c. The M&P9c feels like a brick on my side. The Shield in a JM Custom #3 holster is my lounge around the house gun and it's my pocket gun on the very rare occasions when I am in low threat environments.

I carry an issued M&P9 while at work, so logic would dictate that I carry my M&P9c when off-duty. And I try to. Really I do. Sort of. Some times... I have large palms with long fingers. Depending on the day, the M&P9 feels too short and too chunky. My Glock 19 gen3 that I've had for years, feels much better. Last year, I bought a gen4 Glock 19. Once I installed the large beaver tail back strap on this gun, I found the perfect off-duty gun for me.

When Doc first started this topic on the internet, I had a data entry operator pull 6 weeks of robbery reports for my District that occurred during robbery season (which starts traditionally the day after Thanksgiving). What I discovered was that the average number of suspects in an Aggravated Robbery was 3. And if any of the suspects were armed with a firearm, then all of the suspects were. Kind of makes one want to re-think the concept of a J-frame 5 shot revolver as a primary handgun. Or even a single stack pistol as a primary gun. And this is assuming that you don't miss when shooting under stress, or that any of the suspects don't require more than 1-2 rounds to stop their aggressive actions. Fact is that under stress, in low light and when both you and the suspects are moving, you may miss a shot or two. And also keep in mind due to drugs, adrenaline and various other factors, some people just require "More killing than others". So 1-2 rounds may or may not be lethal, but it may not stop their aggressive actions.

I'm just a couple of years away from hanging up the badge and retiring. Once I do so, I might start carrying the HK VP9 I bought, as I am really warming up to this gun. But if I had to chose the gun I would carry as I sail off into my retirement years at this moment, then one of my gen4 Glock 19's would be what I chose. With a proper holster, I can carry it all four seasons in comfort and with concealment. I can shoot it like it was a full size gun. It's accurate enough for the task. Durable and reliable enough. And 16 rounds vs. 5 rounds to me is a deal breaker.

So for me, the Glock 19 is the new J-Frame.

[LSP972]

I had a data entry operator pull 6 weeks of robbery reports for my District that occurred during robbery season (which starts traditionally the day after Thanksgiving). What I discovered was that the average number of suspects in an Aggravated Robbery was 3. And if any of the suspects were armed with a firearm, then all of the suspects were. Kind of makes one want to re-think the concept of a J-frame 5 shot revolver as a primary handgun. .

My epiphany occurred on a Saturday night, some months after Katrina blew in waves of DTs (Displaced Thugs) here.

My retirement dream was T-shirts, shorts, a J frame and a Speed Strip. I happened to be dressed/equipped thus so, when the wife decided (on our way home from the "good" part of town) that she needed to check something out in the mall in the "bad" part of town.

I lost count of the groups of "yutes" hanging around, eyeing the shoppers, before we got halfway through the place. Many of them were definitely packing under their FUBU/etc. jerseys. Talk about heightened awareness… I was exceedingly aware that I had a mouse gun and five + six rounds of ammunition; period.

From that day forward, my J frames have been secondary iron… except around the house, when more serious goodies are within quick reach.

I still do the shorts and flip-flops thing; but I now wear button-up shirts to better conceal serious iron and extra magazines.

Your observation that those in a position to know… do… I'm afraid I'll have to partially disagree with. On the night in question, I had been a cop for 27 years, involved with my share of on-the-job encounters (and two off-duty ones)… and still thought I was adequately armed with a J frame and Speed Strip while "out on the block".

I suppose we all have different "wake-up triggers"… I'm just thankful mine got pulled.

.

[DocGKR]

Last weekend I re-qualified--G19, M&P9, M&P45; no "mouse guns" or low capacity handguns...

[JR1572]

Last weekend I re-qualified--G19, M&P9, M&P45; no "mouse guns" or low capacity handguns...

Do you carry a BUG while on duty?

JR1572

[JonInWA]

My BUG while at work as a uniformed LEO is a M&P Shield 9mm. I can put rounds on target more effectively than my 642 and the capacity and ballistics win out over my 642 J-Frame. I can actually carry a Shield as a BUG for a 10 hour shift and not notice it is there. I can't say the same for a M&P9c. The M&P9c feels like a brick on my side. The Shield in a JM Custom #3 holster is my lounge around the house gun and it's my pocket gun on the very rare occasions when I am in low threat environments.

I carry an issued M&P9 while at work, so logic would dictate that I carry my M&P9c when off-duty. And I try to. Really I do. Sort of. Some times... I have large palms with long fingers. Depending on the day, the M&P9 feels too short and too chunky. My Glock 19 gen3 that I've had for years, feels much better. Last year, I bought a gen4 Glock 19. Once I installed the large beaver tail back strap on this gun, I found the perfect off-duty gun for me.

When Doc first started this topic on the internet, I had a data entry operator pull 6 weeks of robbery reports for my District that occurred during robbery season (which starts traditionally the day after Thanksgiving). What I discovered was that the average number of suspects in an Aggravated Robbery was 3. And if any of the suspects were armed with a firearm, then all of the suspects were. Kind of makes one want to re-think the concept of a J-frame 5 shot revolver as a primary handgun. Or even a single stack pistol as a primary gun. And this is assuming that you don't miss when shooting under stress, or that any of the suspects don't require more than 1-2 rounds to stop their aggressive actions. Fact is that under stress, in low light and when both you and the suspects are moving, you may miss a shot or two. And also keep in mind due to drugs, adrenaline and various other factors, some people just require "More killing than others". So 1-2 rounds may or may not be lethal, but it may not stop their aggressive actions.

I'm just a couple of years away from hanging up the badge and retiring. Once I do so, I might start carrying the HK VP9 I bought, as I am really warming up to this gun. But if I had to chose the gun I would carry as I sail off into my retirement years at this moment, then one of my gen4 Glock 19's would be what I chose. With a proper holster, I can carry it all four seasons in comfort and with concealment. I can shoot it like it was a full size gun. It's accurate enough for the task. Durable and reliable enough. And 16 rounds vs. 5 rounds to me is a deal breaker.

So for me, the Glock 19 is the new J-Frame.

That's exceptionally compelling evidence/justification for utilizing a semi-automatic (and a Glock 19 or similar-capacity one) versus a revolver (particularly a smaller revolver). It reinforces the conclusion that I concurrently have come to (detailed in a previous thread here, where I detailed out my thought processes leading me to limit my revolver carrying to daylight and/or nightstand use.

Thank you for taking the effort to do the research, and sharing it with us, Beat Trash.

Best, Jon

[BJJ]

Great thread. Thanks for everybody's contributions.

[Chuck Haggard]

Those robbery stats are fairly true around here as well, and one reason why I tend to carry a Glock 19 and a S&W 642 while off duty.

[El Cid]

My j-frame is a BUG only and even then only when I can't hide my G26. If I'm in shorts the G26 doesn't in a pocket so the snubby gets the assignment. The primary is always a full frame pistol.

[DocGKR]

"Do you carry a BUG while on duty?"

When I was in a uniformed patrol assignment I typically carried two LW J-frames (ankle and pocket) as BUG's; don't have that job anymore, so don't need the J-frame. In the extremely rare situation I feel the need for a BUG now, I am inclined to carry a second G19...

[JR1572]

When I was in a uniformed patrol assignment I typically carried two LW J-frames (ankle and pocket) as BUG's; don't have that job anymore, so don't need the J-frame. In the extremely rare situation I feel the need for a BUG now, I am inclined to carry a second G19...

Ok. I only wear a uniform to work extra duty. While in uniform, I have to carry a PX4, and I'll carry either a 26 or a 442. While at my regular assignment, I carry a 19 with a light and my 26 or a 442. I only carry BUG's on my ankle because my trousers don't have gigantic pockets, especially my uniform trousers.

Why two j frames? Ease of reloading or just to have BUG's in two different locations?

JR1572

[DocGKR]

Access in different locations and with either hand.

[LSP972]

Why two j frames? Ease of reloading or just to have BUG's in two different locations?

JR1572

By the time I went back into uniform briefly, after the range gig, we had been issued some proper vests. I carried a J frame on it, in a vest holster. And more often than not (particularly when working in your neck of the woods) I had another one on my ankle; for a third piece. And I always had an AirWeight in the top left slash pocket of my flight suit when doing the SWAT thing, as a last-ditch deal.

If you wear a vest while in the bag, you should look into a vest holster. You're plenty broad enough in the chest to carry an AirWeight in one without issue. I know that some of the skinny guys carried a G26 there; I tried it, found I needed the next larger-sized shirt to accommodate it, and that made me look like Sad Sack… so I stayed with the J frame.

.

[stingray]

I am recovering from a recent, major surgery. Location of carry and weight of equipment have limited my choice of firearm. I am finding more and more that my 9mm Shield has become my new "J-frame". The gun and a couple of reloads means 25 rounds of ammo. Right now, I am OK with that.

[KevinB]

The 9mm Shield is my "J-Frame", however I still don't leave the house without my 9mm CORE.

When I don't have a long gun with my I always carry a BUG -- reviewing some disarming drills I got shown last week, I am revisiting carrying my BUG appendix, along with a centerline knife.

My J Frame got sold over a year ago when I tried to do a reload at night

[DonGlock26]

My Glock 26 has been my J Frame, since they came out. It was my station, back up, and off duty weapon until I retired.
I bought a 649, when I graduated from the Detroit Police academy back in '89, but I traded it in for a 442
eventually. I also use a PM9 or LCP depending on my clothing. Unfortunately, I wear business casual quite often.

My gen 3 has a grip reduction by Coldbore Custom (worth the wait) and XS Big Dot sights.

I use the +2 OEM magazines.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DonGlock26/Glock26cb_zps7044c758.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DonGlock26/media/Glock26cb_zps7044c758.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/DonGlock26/glock26cb2_zps0e20eac5.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DonGlock26/media/glock26cb2_zps0e20eac5.jpg.html)

[Salamander]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place, but I have a few things to say.

For the last couple of years, I've carried a G19 with a light off duty almost all of the time. If not, I had a 442 and a few reloads. If I left my house, I'm usually in my unmarked unit and it contains two long guns and another pistol.

I like having a handgun on me that holds more than 5 rounds. I also like handguns that have useable sights and are easy to reload.

While I don't mind my 19, I've began to carry my 26 more often. Sure it's smaller, but it holds twice as much as my 442, has sights, and is easy to reload.

Is there any reason why the 26/27/33 don't get much praise? I understand that it has a shorter sight radius and if you add extended floor plates (I don't use them because I have freakishly small hands) it's grip is almost as long as a 19/23/32, but it almost seems that people scoff at the sub-compact Glock's. Right now I have a 26 in an Alessi ankle rig and it feels fine. It complements my light bearing 19 in an ALS just fine.

I like my 442, but my 26 is getting more carry time now.

JR1572

As you can see above, they work fine for some people. However I tried one and sold it, the grip is a little too small for me. It rains a lot here in the winter and I need to visit project sites a lot, some of them remote. On the logic of practice under realistic conditions I shoot all my guns in the rain with wet hands. For me, the G26 failed that test, tended to shift in my hand. I also don't find a G19 to be any harder to hide than a G26. I do however often carry a P2000sk on office days, it's just enough bigger than a G26 that I can hang onto to it in any conditions.

As for J-frames: If I'm leaving the house, I carry something bigger.

[Chuck Haggard]

I used to carry a G26 as a BUG, it was my ankle gun, but that knee has too much arthritis now and I can't hang with a BUG that heavy on my ankle.

[GJM]

As you can see above, they work fine for some people. However I tried one and sold it, the grip is a little too small for me. It rains a lot here in the winter and I need to visit project sites a lot, some of them remote. On the logic of practice under realistic conditions I shoot all my guns in the rain with wet hands. For me, the G26 failed that test, tended to shift in my hand. I also don't find a G19 to be any harder to hide than a G26. I do however often carry a P2000sk on office days, it's just enough bigger than a G26 that I can hang onto to it in any conditions.

As for J-frames: If I'm leaving the house, I carry something bigger.

Was your 26 a Gen 3? I find the Gen 4 texture very helpful in hanging on to the short grip of the 26. Regardless, a 19 shoots close to a 17, and the 26 does not.

[ST911]

The more I carried a G26/27, the more I realized I could carry a G19/23 instead. Especially when you start adding finger-rest or extended floorplates, regular size spare mags, etc. There were some exceptions for ankle and certain pocket carry, but on the belt? May as well have more gun.

[DocGKR]

As noted by others above, I got rid of my G26's, as I could find no carry method (except on the ankle) where a G26 would work, but a more versatile and effective G19 would not.

[GJM]

As noted by others above, I got rid of my G26's, as I could find no carry method (except on the ankle) where a G26 would work, but a more versatile and effective G19 would not.

I think it is body type specific. My wife wears a G26 daily in a Mitch Rosen Upper Limit, and where it works, a 19 does not on account of a longer barrel and grip. Since I carry appendix, I see no difference in the slide length between a 19 and 26, but the butt does make a difference in printing under light clothing. A 19 cut to 26 butt length is very versatile because you can carry everything from a flat base 26 magazine to a 17 magazine, depending upon circumstances.

While I haven't tested OEM G19 ten round magazines extensively, anecdotally I think a 19 cut to 26 butt length might be theoretically more reliable using OEM G26 10 round mags than neutered G19 0 round mags.

[DocGKR]

Concur.

A G19 cut to take 10 rd G26 mags is more reliable than a G19 using neutered 10 rd mags. The cut G19 can mount an X300, while the G26 cannot. Except for an my ankle or perhaps in a body armor pocket, I find the shorter barrel of the G26 is actually harder to effectively carry AIWB--that is why I always use a G17 holster. Again, all of the above is body type specific.

[psalms144.1]

I only bought a G26 for ankle carry when I started taking NYC mass transit with work at the federal court house at the end of the trip. No WAY I was wearing jacket & tie the whole commute, untucked business shirt over suit pants looks like kittens, and I wasn't as comfortable with just my PM9 on my ankle as I might have been. The Gen4 G26 is more reassuring, especially when I can stick a 17 round "reload" magazine in my front pocket, and have a third in my bag easily accessible. The same holds true for lounging around the house in PJs and slippers on the weekends - G26 in an ankle rig rides nicely under fleece PJs (had to lose my "feety" PJs, though) - G19 requires a belt (and the belt on my robe isn't "tactical" enough to hold up that kind of weight!)

Having said all that, if ankle carry is not a requirement or desire, I'm in the camp that anywhere I can carry my G26, I can carry my G19.

[JR1572]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm trying to figure out where to hide what guns when in uniform.

I like armor carry, but during the winter time I wear a sweater tucked into my pants so that option isn't really available all of the time, but it doesn't stay cold long in the NOLA area anyway.

I may need to try to see if the 26 or 42 can fit in a trouser pocket.

JR1572

[MDS]

G26 in an ankle rig rides nicely under fleece PJs

Oooh, food for thought. I've been "working from home" for some time now, and slow but surely my carrying discipline has waned. It used to be that when I got dressed in the morning, I'd put my G19 (in the summer) or G17 (in the winter) on right around the time my pants went on. But it turns out that when working from home, there are days I don't get dressed before noon. There are days I don't get dressed at all. It's wonderful...except my carrying habits have suffered. For example, I may only get "partially" dressed when going to the store. I've started basically thinking along the lines of JodyH's basketball-shorts gun. Ankle carry under PJ's sounds like it's more my style. Maybe custom footies with a "flap" near the ankle for drawing? ;) I will buy a g26 and begin to experiment with this, thanks!

[GJM]

As it turned out, I went to the range this afternoon and forget the DAA belt, OWB and mag pouches for my G17. I was wearing a G19 in a JM, so it became appendix day. Towards the end of the session, I decided to shoot a Bill drill from concealment, as I can't recall ever shooting a Bill drill with a 19. Thought it would be interesting, in light of my belief there is a significant delta between 26 and 19 and a much smaller delta between 17 and 19. This was my Bill with the G19, at 2.10 total time, with just a 1.02 draw, as I was trying to get a deliberate grip. I was extremely pleased with the accuracy.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zpsa41d014d.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zpsa41d014d.jpg.html)

[BJJ]

As it turned out, I went to the range this afternoon and forget the DAA belt, OWB and mag pouches for my G17. I was wearing a G19 in a JM, so it became appendix day. Towards the end of the session, I decided to shoot a Bill drill from concealment, as I can't recall ever shooting a Bill drill with a 19. Thought it would be interesting, in light of my belief there is a significant delta between 26 and 19 and a much smaller delta between 17 and 19. This was my Bill with the G19, at 2.10 total time, with just a 1.02 draw, as I was trying to get a deliberate grip. I was extremely pleased with the accuracy.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zpsa41d014d.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zpsa41d014d.jpg.html)


It would appear that it's the Indian not the arrow after all.

[MRW]

I would definitely agree with the earlier post that suggested the Gen 4 version of the G26 makes it more appealing. I had a Gen 3 but sold it when I didn't shoot it any better than my Gen 3 G19. Last October I picked up a Gen 4. Between the grip texture and relieved backstrap I handled and shot it much better than the Gen 3 version and close enough to the G19 that it became my primary off duty carry.

[45dotACP]

I only bought a G26 for ankle carry when I started taking NYC mass transit with work at the federal court house at the end of the trip. No WAY I was wearing jacket & tie the whole commute, untucked business shirt over suit pants looks like kittens, and I wasn't as comfortable with just my PM9 on my ankle as I might have been.

Seems like that'd be the best opportunity for a G19 or G17 in a pancake holster that I've ever heard...Any particular reason for not going with that, as opposed to a more difficult/slower carry method? Also, holy crap, you got a NYC carry permit? That impresses me ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm trying to figure out where to hide what guns when in uniform.

I like armor carry, but during the winter time I wear a sweater tucked into my pants so that option isn't really available all of the time, but it doesn't stay cold long in the NOLA area anyway.

I may need to try to see if the 26 or 42 can fit in a trouser pocket.

JR1572

Do you guys wear class A type uniform, or are the cargo pocket type pants authorized?

[El Cid]

Do you guys wear class A type uniform, or are the cargo pocket type pants authorized?

Were you thinking of one of these? A buddy uses one and loves it.

http://www.pocketholsters.com

[JR1572]

Do you guys wear class A type uniform, or are the cargo pocket type pants authorized?

Our trousers are made of the class a type material with cargo pockets.

JR1572

[psalms144.1]

Seems like that'd be the best opportunity for a G19 or G17 in a pancake holster that I've ever heard...Any particular reason for not going with that, as opposed to a more difficult/slower carry method? Also, holy crap, you got a NYC carry permit? That impresses me ;)The issue is the requirement to be in "business attire" for court - with the heat/humidity of NYC summer and a decent walk at the end of the subway trip. Any carry with a covering garment becomes un-doable, unless I want to spend the day in court in a sweat-stained suit that looks like I was fired out of a large bore wrinkle gun.

And, the Federal credentials trump even NYC's crazy requirements (except at the WTC Memorial, of course...)

[Beat Trash]

Were you thinking of one of these? A buddy uses one and loves it.

http://www.pocketholsters.com


What gun is your buddy using with this holster?

[El Cid]

What gun is your buddy using with this holster?

Glock 27.

[Kanati]

What a GREAT thread. Bumping it up so newcomer's like myself can find it.

[Irelander]

What a GREAT thread. Bumping it up so newcomer's like myself can find it.

Thanks for bumping. Good stuff.

[alohadoug]

My epiphany occurred on a Saturday night....

For me, my epiphany was last night.

I work for the DoD on a Military installation so carrying at work is a LEGAL No-Go. My work attire is "business casual" and I work for a boss that would make us wear suits and ties (khakis on Friday only) if she could. I dislike leaving the house without carrying something especially b/c I often spend my lunch hour running errands. I work/live is fairly low crime area and, as long as I avoid the local Wal-Mart, the places I go tend to be fairly low key. I made the decision that pocket carry is the most effective/acceptable form of carry for me. I've tried a number of firearms to meet my criteria. I had settled on the S&W Bodyguard. Yes, it was .380 but, hey, I work and live in a low crime area so it's "enough gun." After lurking here and having the folly of my error made clear, I switched to a J frame. Though I have some issues with hands (ligament/tendon), I feel I'm getting better at being able to utilize it.

But like others have pointed out in this thread, instead of it being my "work clothes" only gun, it has become my "all the time gun" because it's easy to slip into any pocket and carry. Which leads me to my epiphany...

Last night I had to take my 13 year old son to the mall to return a Christmas present. Even though I was dressed "down" (jeans and sweatshirt), I just slipped my J frame into my pocket and away we went. Now this mall is in a wealthy suburb of Boston and not a hot spot of crime or trouble. However anyone who has watched the news the last couple of nights knows that the mall has become the showdown site for gangs of teenagers looking to cause trouble. There were several incidents at wealthy suburb malls in Conn the other night. As my son and I sat in the food court I took notice of the increase in mall security personnel and an alarming number of teenagers gathering. It made me realize that if things went "really, really south" (i.e. worse case scenario) I was seriously underprepared. We finished up eating and split soon there after. Even my son had noticed the increase in tension and kept watching the groups of teens (he's seen the news stories).

So now I'm at a crossroads. I realize that while the J frame may have a place in my life, I need to realize that it is not the "one size fits all" that I had considered it. Currently, the only other pistol that I own suitable for carry is my Beretta 92. Living in Mass (Satan's asshole), I have a variety of "issues" in determining what pistols to carry. Standard capacity magazines must be pre-1994 and Glocks are private sale only (no dealer sales) so the price for those can go up quickly. Having two kids and a wife who is carries (sometimes) but isn't as into the culture as I am has limited my budget. I suspect as someone else pointed out earlier, it's time to get a good belt and holster and carry the 92 until the money is available for a "better" carry gun. Anyone have a AIWB that they are looking to sell (or rent) to me? :D

Aloha

[LockedBreech]

The issue is the requirement to be in "business attire" for court - with the heat/humidity of NYC summer and a decent walk at the end of the subway trip. Any carry with a covering garment becomes un-doable, unless I want to spend the day in court in a sweat-stained suit that looks like I was fired out of a large bore wrinkle gun.

And, the Federal credentials trump even NYC's crazy requirements (except at the WTC Memorial, of course...)

This was my struggle for the longest time as a M-F courtroom attorney.

Eventually I went through the trouble to set meetings with every single judge individually and got signed permission from 5 of the 7 to carry in court, and provided copies of that to court security and keep one in my wallet at all times. Now I carry my PX4 fullsize in an internal compartment of my messenger bag. Off-body carry is not ideal, but like you I just can't afford to have my professional look wrinkled/rumpled/bumped by a firearm, and certainly can't risk printing or flashing to a jury. It's a compromise but an acceptable one.

[5pins]

For me, my epiphany was last night.

I work for the DoD on a Military installation so carrying at work is a LEGAL No-Go. My work attire is "business casual" and I work for a boss that would make us wear suits and ties (khakis on Friday only) if she could. I dislike leaving the house without carrying something especially b/c I often spend my lunch hour running errands. I work/live is fairly low crime area and, as long as I avoid the local Wal-Mart, the places I go tend to be fairly low key. I made the decision that pocket carry is the most effective/acceptable form of carry for me. I've tried a number of firearms to meet my criteria. I had settled on the S&W Bodyguard. Yes, it was .380 but, hey, I work and live in a low crime area so it's "enough gun." After lurking here and having the folly of my error made clear, I switched to a J frame. Though I have some issues with hands (ligament/tendon), I feel I'm getting better at being able to utilize it.

But like others have pointed out in this thread, instead of it being my "work clothes" only gun, it has become my "all the time gun" because it's easy to slip into any pocket and carry. Which leads me to my epiphany...

Last night I had to take my 13 year old son to the mall to return a Christmas present. Even though I was dressed "down" (jeans and sweatshirt), I just slipped my J frame into my pocket and away we went. Now this mall is in a wealthy suburb of Boston and not a hot spot of crime or trouble. However anyone who has watched the news the last couple of nights knows that the mall has become the showdown site for gangs of teenagers looking to cause trouble. There were several incidents at wealthy suburb malls in Conn the other night. As my son and I sat in the food court I took notice of the increase in mall security personnel and an alarming number of teenagers gathering. It made me realize that if things went "really, really south" (i.e. worse case scenario) I was seriously underprepared. We finished up eating and split soon there after. Even my son had noticed the increase in tension and kept watching the groups of teens (he's seen the news stories).

So now I'm at a crossroads. I realize that while the J frame may have a place in my life, I need to realize that it is not the "one size fits all" that I had considered it. Currently, the only other pistol that I own suitable for carry is my Beretta 92. Living in Mass (Satan's asshole), I have a variety of "issues" in determining what pistols to carry. Standard capacity magazines must be pre-1994 and Glocks are private sale only (no dealer sales) so the price for those can go up quickly. Having two kids and a wife who is carries (sometimes) but isn't as into the culture as I am has limited my budget. I suspect as someone else pointed out earlier, it's time to get a good belt and holster and carry the 92 until the money is available for a "better" carry gun. Anyone have a AIWB that they are looking to sell (or rent) to me? :D

Aloha

Glock 26 maybe? Standard 10rd capacity.

[blues]

Ah, court...gotta love it. You can be summoned forthwith by a judge for a hearing or to testify (unexpectedly at a moment's notice) while out on surveillance and God help you if you keep the judge waiting. My favorite were the ones that then demanded that you have a jacket and tie on which required one of the deputy marshal's lending you one (and maybe a shirt with a collar to boot).

In Miami they "used to" allow agents to testify with their firearms but changed the policy years ago so that only the retired LEO court officers, the marshals and probably at least some of the judges were armed. Crappy policy considering we were the people that brought the damn defendants to them in the first place.

Oh well...

[blues]

Glock 26 maybe? Standard 10rd capacity.

I was thinking the same but he said Glocks are like hen's teeth up there, apparently.

[alohadoug]

Glock 26 maybe? Standard 10rd capacity.


I was thinking the same but he said Glocks are like hen's teeth up there, apparently.

That's the direction I'm looking right now. Doesn't help that the wife HATES Glocks (had a bad experience with one 20 years ago).

The USED ones (mostly Gen 3) are going for $750-800. Gen 4's will be on the higher end. Occasionally there will be a Gen 2.5 that will show up for less.

Figure I'll keep watching the sites and see what pops.

[blues]

That's the direction I'm looking right now. Doesn't help that the wife HATES Glocks (had a bad experience with one 20 years ago).

The USED ones (mostly Gen 3) are going for $750-800. Gen 4's will be on the higher end. Occasionally there will be a Gen 2.5 that will show up for less.

Figure I'll keep watching the sites and see what pops.

That's a lot of coin. Can LEOs (that you may have as friends) up there order a Glock under the Blue Label program? Maybe they can buy, decide they didn't like it and sell one to you. (I haven't bought under Blue Label (yet) but my understanding is that we are entitled to purchase two firearms per year. I don't know if they are further restricted in MA.)

[alohadoug]

That's a lot of coin. Can LEOs (that you may have as friends) up there order a Glock under the Blue Label program? Maybe they can buy, decide they didn't like it and sell one to you. (I haven't bought under Blue Label (yet) but my understanding is that we are entitled to purchase two firearms per year. I don't know if they are further restricted in MA.)

Glocks are available for sale to LEO with paperwork. The AG here is currently suing Glock and Remington for manufacturing a dangerous product (I shit you not) so some of the agencies have told their officers to hold off on buying any Glocks...

I hate this Commonwealth. Counting down the days till kids graduate and we are gone (wife finally agreed, she's from here).

[blues]

Wow. That's all I got.

[alohadoug]

AG is also the one that "reinterpreted" the AWB laws here making the sale of AR/AK pattern rifles not legal...

But, I could order a Glock frame and have it transferred through a dealer, then order the slide/barrel from somewhere and then once assembled file the paperwork and that's legal. But a dealer can't sell me a complete Glock.

/thread derail...

[blues]

AG is also the one that "reinterpreted" the AWB laws here making the sale of AR/AK pattern rifles not legal...

But, I could order a Glock frame and have it transferred through a dealer, then order the slide/barrel from somewhere and then once assembled file the paperwork and that's legal. But a dealer can't sell me a complete Glock.

/thread derail...

http://www.lexingtonminutemen.com/uploads/1/6/2/4/16242256/8917053_orig.jpg

"Hey, can somebody arrange to move me to a state that still remembers what the 2nd Amendment is about?"

[5pins]

That's the direction I'm looking right now. Doesn't help that the wife HATES Glocks (had a bad experience with one 20 years ago).

The USED ones (mostly Gen 3) are going for $750-800. Gen 4's will be on the higher end. Occasionally there will be a Gen 2.5 that will show up for less.

Figure I'll keep watching the sites and see what pops.

Wow!
Can’t you buy one on gunbroker and have it transferred to you?

[alohadoug]

But, I could order a Glock frame and have it transferred through a dealer, then order the slide/barrel from somewhere and then once assembled file the paperwork and that's legal. But a dealer can't sell me a complete Glock.


Wow!
Can’t you buy one on gunbroker and have it transferred to you?

Nope. Dealers can't sell or transfer Glocks because of the AG's use of Consumer Protection Laws (predating her current move against AR/AK).

[5pins]

Nope. Dealers can't sell or transfer Glocks because of the AG's use of Consumer Protection Laws (predating her current move against AR/AK).

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/609669070

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/609680792

Price $530 not including shipping and transfer fee.

[Duelist]

My epiphany came when I shot my 642 in an IDPA-ish match. Reloading under stress is slow, and fumble prone. If you only carry the gun with no reloads, it's on-board ammo isn't going to last long. If you get in a fight and run dry... Well, if you do that, and have a speedloader, you might find out at an inopportune moment that your speedloader, jiggled just wrong, jams itself into an unremovable position with the cartridges inserted in the cylinder. Had to remove the grip on the left side to get it loose. If you carry with speedstrips, you might find rounds falling to the ground instead of into the chamber, or the whole thing might sail downrange, and take all your available bullets with it.

I carried a speedloader and four speedstrips for that match. I finished ahead of a lady who always finishes last, and a DNF. I started carrying more than one speed strip every time I carried the gun by itself, but started looking for something else to become the primary. It still works, but is now a backup, ankle, or jacket pocket tool, not the sole gun I have in my car for a multiple hundred mile road trip. Or camping in the mountains with the black bears and lions. Or daily, for that matter. There's so much to like about it, but the drawbacks are inescapable.

Still don't have a Glock, though. 😁

[blues]

My epiphany came when I shot my 642 in an IDPA-ish match. Reloading under stress is slow, and fumble prone. If you only carry the gun with no reloads, it's on-board ammo isn't going to last long. If you get in a fight and run dry... Well, if you do that, and have a speedloader, you might find out at an inopportune moment that your speedloader, jiggled just wrong, jams itself into an unremovable position with the cartridges inserted in the cylinder. Had to remove the grip on the left side to get it loose. If you carry with speedstrips, you might find rounds falling to the ground instead of into the chamber, or the whole thing might sail downrange, and take all your available bullets with it.

I carried a speedloader and four speedstrips for that match. I finished ahead of a lady who always finishes last, and a DNF. I started carrying more than one speed strip every time I carried the gun by itself, but started looking for something else to become the primary. It still works, but is now a backup, ankle, or jacket pocket tool, not the sole gun I have in my car for a multiple hundred mile road trip. Or camping in the mountains with the black bears and lions. Or daily, for that matter. There's so much to like about it, but the drawbacks are inescapable.

Still don't have a Glock, though. ��

Heretic! Burn him! (You had me until that last line...;))

[Duelist]

Heretic! Burn him! (You had me until that last line...;))

LOL! I decided I wanted a hammer, and DA for at least the first shot. GLOCKS don't give me that.

[11B10]

Admit it, many folks find themselves with a J-frame or small .380 in the pocket when off-duty or for casual CCW when needing to quickly run an errand, but really don’t feel a need to be armed—like when your spouse sends you down to the local market for a carton of milk, when you run down to the nearest service station to get gas, or when stopping by a friend’s house to watch a game. What’s not to like; J-frames are just so light, compact, and easy to carry.

The other evening I was walking our dog through a wooded area near our neighborhood. Unfortunately, a group of seven older teenage boys had also decided to visit the woods to get drunk and high that night. Evidently, the belligerent punks were inebriated enough to become a bit aggressive and bellicose. They were lurking in the shadows as I came around a bend in the trail and they rudely attempted to block my passage and harass me.

Now, I’d like to think my authoritative presence, strong vocal commands, and Surefire L4 flashing in their eyes de-escalated the situation, but in reality it was likely my snarling black lab who decided she did NOT like her walk being intruded upon by rude interlopers. As the jerks slinked away, I reflected on the situation I had just found myself in--a number of years ago, a man out for an evening stroll was beaten to death by a half a dozen intoxicated delinquents not far from where I stood.

I began to contemplate what might have happened if my recent situation had moved from merely an uncomfortable encounter to a life threatening attack. There was a time I might have just stuck a J-frame in my pocket for a quick walk with the dog. With seven of them and only one of me, 5 shots in a J-frame suddenly did not feel too comforting. Fortunately, I now rely on a G19, as I find it almost as easy to carry as a J-frame. If this situation had instead gone badly, I would have felt much more confident with 15 rounds on tap in a G19—the equivalent of carrying three J-frames. As is often said, quantity has a quality all of its own.

My bottom line is this: while I still love J-frames as a BUG to another primary handgun, I no longer am comfortable relying on one as my primary carry weapon. Long live the “new” J-frame—my G19!


Doc, hearing this from someone of your stature has cleared things up for me. I've been trying to decide between a G19 and a G26 for what seems like forever. Not anymore. Very much appreciated.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've come to a similar place as Duelist - as I wrote in another post - it is a great idea to shoot something like an IDPA or short range match with your J frame. As to Doc's original post, I've had two incidents with four possible assailants (they were resolved by some smooth talking and avoidance).

Since I've murdered my back these two past weeks, I've carry a J (432) and a speedloader or a G42 and two extra mags in my outer jacket. Or both - one for each hand. I'm waiting for the wonders of flexeril and Aleve to help. I've missed two matches as a wrong turn spasms me.

Having taken Claude's snub class and shooting the guns, I'm aware of the limitations and positives of the small gun platform.

[serialsolver]

I really wanted the j frame lifestyle (or for me the colt d frame lifestyle) and I thought when I retired I would live it. I live in rural Oklahoma on my ranch, just a calm low risk lifestyle, then I met the sheriff that told me I live in the most problem part of the county and if I needed a deputy he would be ten minutes away from me "if" he was in the middle of the county during the day, night would be longer and I don't really think anyone in my past would hunt me down for revenge but you don't have to watch the news long to see crazier things than that are happening and the next thing ya know.... I want hi capacity.

Then there was the time my wife and I stops to eat at a fried chicken place. Then three shitheads came in and my shithead meter pegged out. My wife, who says I'm paranoid, was worried. Then I'm thinking, I'm fixin to find out how well I can shoot an el presidente with a snubby m66 and speed strips and the next thing ya know......I want hi capacity.

That was the last time I carried a snubby six shooter as primary and only handgun and I KNEW better. I fell in that trap of "I'm just going to....."

Now, I'll use the glock 27. Mine is proven, I shoot it well, it's configurable. It can be a 9mm, it can be a pocket gun. If I need more capacity, a grip adapter with a larger mag is all that's needed. I like that adaptability. Or the glock 30s.

I really wanted the j frame lifestyle but I guess I'm really just living a new, current, modern version of it.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

In today's world, snubs as primaries is often a choice made by others due to severely restricted No permissive environments. Otherwise, some of the Sub Compact guns like the G26 and P2000SK make a ton more sense when YOU have a say in what to carry.

Lately for me, a sub compact in a holster and a J frame in the pocket is a combo I am really liking.

[blues]

I really wanted the j frame lifestyle (or for me the colt d frame lifestyle) and I thought when I retired I would live it. I live in rural Oklahoma on my ranch, just a calm low risk lifestyle, then I met the sheriff that told me I live in the most problem part of the county and if I needed a deputy he would be ten minutes away from me "if" he was in the middle of the county during the day, night would be longer and I don't really think anyone in my past would hunt me down for revenge but you don't have to watch the news long to see crazier things than that are happening and the next thing ya know.... I want hi capacity.

Then there was the time my wife and I stops to eat at a fried chicken place. Then three shitheads came in and my shithead meter pegged out. My wife, who says I'm paranoid, was worried. Then I'm thinking, I'm fixin to find out how well I can shoot an el presidente with a snubby m66 and speed strips and the next thing ya know......I want hi capacity.

That was the last time I carried a snubby six shooter as primary and only handgun and I KNEW better. I fell in that trap of "I'm just going to....."

Now, I'll use the glock 27. Mine is proven, I shoot it well, it's configurable. It can be a 9mm, it can be a pocket gun. If I need more capacity, a grip adapter with a larger mag is all that's needed. I like that adaptability. Or the glock 30s.

I really wanted the j frame lifestyle but I guess I'm really just living a new, current, modern version of it.

Your stories resonate with me.

Some years back I was on a motorcycle trip up to NC with my wife where we joined a number of other folks for a rally in the Asheville area.

We went out to lunch with a few of the folks we rode with and while sitting in this place I noticed a few guys at an adjoining table wearing shirts that identified them as belonging to a white supremacist group I had done some cursory investigation of previously.

There's no way that they would have known me but the instant I made eye contact it was clear that they recognized me for who and what I was...just as I did them. I truly felt that things were going to go to hell in a hand basket quickly and got myself ready. I told my wife and the others at the table that if they saw me go to my fanny pack and stand that they should dive under the table. Fortunately, it didn't come to that.

It must've taken an hour for my hair to settle back down after we left that restaurant.

[serialsolver]

In today's world, snubs as primaries is often a choice made by others due to severely restricted No permissive environments. Otherwise, some of the Sub Compact guns like the G26 and P2000SK make a ton more sense when YOU have a say in what to carry.

Lately for me, a sub compact in a holster and a J frame in the pocket is a combo I am really liking.

Agree. Nothing is better in those restricted environments. My 340pd is my goin to doctor gun.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[blues]

I've got another interesting motorcycle story...parenthetically involving guns or the lack thereof.

In 1995 after the trip above, my wife decided that if she was going to ride pillion she'd prefer something more comfortable than the cruiser we were riding. We test rode an ST1100 in Asheville and she loved it. So, when I got back to Miami I scoured dealers until I finally found one that could get the one I wanted. (A black 1994. Didn't want the red 1995.)

The dealer was a few hours north in Leesburg, FL so on the morning of the day I got up early to ride up there and do a trade-in of my then current ride and ride home on the new bike.

Got up there, did the deal and started out on the long ride home. Since they only give you a bit of gas and the ST had a 7.5 gallon tank, I figured I'd stop on the Turnpike on the way home.

As I'm riding south I see in my mirrors a long column of bikes approaching which will soon overtake me. (I'm for the first time in my life doing the speed limit as I break in the new ride.) Anyway, it turns out it's the Outlaws wearing their colors and where they were heading or coming from, I don't know.

The one guy I nod to sort of flips me off and I figure I'll just slow it on down and let them pass...which they do.

A while later I pull off the highway into one of the service stations on the Turnpike and wouldn't you know it, the chapter that had passed me is sprawled all over the place in and around the pumps drinking beer, b.s.'ing and just having a time.

Here I pull up on my new rice burner and all I can picture in my mind is having my bike torched and my ass kicked.

What I didn't mention is that in my haste to get on the road that morning, for the first and only time I can ever remember, I forgot and left my gun at home. I about shit.

Well, one of the guys, who swaggered over like he was the honcho, walked over and started asking me about the bike and telling me it looked fast etc etc. I was waiting for the punch line. Told him I had just picked it up, why I had and that I was heading on south. Needless to say I didn't feel any particular need to identify myself or my occupation.

Long and short of it was that he treated me like a brother of the road, told me to take care, ride safe and enjoy the new bike.
I can't begin to tell you the relief I felt after I gassed up and got back on the highway. (This coming from a guy who worked UC on outlaw motorcycle gangs about 10 years previous to this event.)

I think if I had had a J frame that day they might have keeled over from laughter had it come to that. Well most of 'em anyway.

[Duces Tecum]

I think if I had had a J frame that day they might have keeled over from laughter had it come to that. Well, all but five.

FIFY.

[blues]

FIFY.

I'd like to think so but one never knows how it'll play out. That said, I appreciate it. :cool: