P30 Stoppages

[F-Trooper05]

I shot my P30 today for the first time in almost a year. Never had any major issues with it before. Today, however, my buddy had one failure to extract in 15 rounds. Then during the next mag he had two or three failures to extract. Then I took over and had a failure to extract on every single round I fired.

The gun has about 5K through it.
Ammo used was 115gr PMC bronze.
Temperature was about 15 degrees.

Here's what all of the stoppages looked like...


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/Stoppage2_zps0712cc4a.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/Stopage1_zps2bb61b73.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/Stoppage3_zps9b52fa3f.jpg


Thoughts?

[SecondsCount]

The powder in the PMC ammo could be temperature sensitive.

My P30 likes ammo on the hotter side loaded with 124 grain bullets.

[Spr1]

I believe the PMC is very weakly loaded. I have experienced similar issues with WW white box target, including one that re-chambered itself leaving all sorts of unburned powder in the barrel. That one made me think I had a bore obstruction because it just went "pop".
Run some warmer ammo and I bet the problem is solved.

[SPDGG]

The powder in the PMC ammo could be temperature sensitive.

^ Agree, I'd try the same lot after the ammo has come up to room temp.

???: Did the gun seem to run softer than norm? . . . ref: slide speed

[BCL]

I have had similar stoppages in both of my P30L's with 115gr PMC bronze. Never had an issue with NATO ball or anything else though. Considering that PMC. 223 is always on the weak side, I just figured their 9mm had the same issue.

[CCT125US]

Agree to the low powered PMC.... could the glove be making contact with the underside of the slide at all? Hard to tell from the pic, just a thought.

[GJM]

I had trouble with my P30 with gloves and Aguila ball, which is lightly loaded ammo.

[F-Trooper05]

My buddy just reminded me that on the last run I did with it (when it malf'd every round) I wasn't wearing gloves.

Also, I've attended several classes with this gun using PMC exclusively and never had any issues. All I can think of is either the recoil spring needs to be replaced, or the extractor if F'ed.

P.S.
On my iPhone the pictures are upside down. Is it just me?

[GJM]

A few thoughts. First, upon reflection, we had scads of stoppages with PMC 9, in a Glock. Second, wonder how much colder it is now, compared to when you did the course, and whether that could make the ammo effectively lower power factor?

[barnaby]

My buddy just reminded me that on the last run I did with it (when it malf'd every round) I wasn't wearing gloves.

Also, I've attended several classes with this gun using PMC exclusively and never had any issues. All I can think of is either the recoil spring needs to be replaced, or the extractor if F'ed.

P.S.
On my iPhone the pictures are upside down. Is it just me?

Uhm.. trying to see how it could be either of those.

The case seems to be getting pulled out of the chamber.. just not far enough to be ejected.
As far as the recoil spring.. wouldn't it have to get stronger to retard the slide therefore causing the case not to reach the ejector?

Have access to a chrono? While it is still cold out?

[F-Trooper05]

I don't have access to a chrono.

It's definitely colder than any classes I've taken, but it would be surprising to me to find out that the temp was responsible for so many malfunctions that got consistently worse. I've used PMC in temps much colder than this, and never had any issues. I should also add that the same ammo was used in two G17's today and they worked fine. Not saying it's not possible, just that ammo isn't my number one suspect at the moment.

[GJM]

Can't remember, did you try any other ammo?

I also seem to recall someone having trouble at a Rogers course with two P30's, and I think the trouble related to the need for a thorough cleaning, especially chamber and extractor area.

[barnaby]

Can't remember, did you try any other ammo?

I also seem to recall someone having trouble at a Rogers course with two P30's, and I think the trouble related to the need for a thorough cleaning, especially chamber and extractor area.


Probably on to something regarding the chamber.

Check out the black on the brass in the pictures.

[EricM]

What's the best way to thoroughly clean the chamber? A search seems to indicate some use a brass brush the next size up, I also came across a reference to this stainless steel Wilson Combat Chamber Cleaning Tool for 38 Super (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/725815/wilson-combat-chamber-cleaning-tool-38-super). I'd appreciate any other input on specific tools or solvents for this particular purpose.

A while back I noticed inconsistent ejection on my P30L, shooting 124gr Lawman (not known for being weak), and had my first stoppage in ~8,000 rounds much like the OP. I pulled the extractor and thoroughly cleaned it and the channel it sits in, but it still throws brass at somewhat random angles, sometimes in my face, sometimes just dribbling out. Wondering if the chamber could be my issue as well. I generally cleaned the barrel every 700-1000 rounds or so but never focused on the chamber. I'd just set the gun aside for the time being but I'd like to get it back up and running.

[F-Trooper05]

Lack of cleaning is something I will definetly admit to lol. And I didn't try any other ammo. I don't think there's a single box of 9mm in all of Fairbanks at the moment, so I can't afford to be picky.

Either way, this is no longer a carry gun, so I'm not too worrried about it. Just wanted to see what everyone here thought.

[TGS]

I bet ya two "Make Ready" DVDs that your extractor needs to be cleaned.

[F-Trooper05]

I bet ya two "Make Ready" DVDs that your extractor needs to be cleaned.

Paul Howe or Sonny Puzikas? They are are not equal...

[JV_]

I bet ya two "Make Ready" DVDs that your extractor needs to be cleaned.Checking for a dirty chamber would be wise too.

[Spr1]

The weaker the ammo, the darker the case... Lower pressures do not expand the case enough to seal the chamber as well as normal.
The photo looks exactly like the squib rounds I had from Winchester. It looks like the slide did not open far enough for the case to even hit the ejector. If it had, it would be sitting at an angle.
Cleaning the gun could help, but I would bet on weak ammo with temp sensitive powder.
Recoil springs get weaker with use, not stronger.

[Tamara]

The case seems to be getting pulled out of the chamber.. just not far enough to be ejected.

This. The gun extracted just fine, but failed to eject.

Underpowered ammo due to cold + dirty chamber + dirty gun + if it's been sitting in the safe for a year, I'll bet the frame rails are dryer than a popcorn fart = Slide not traveling fast enough and far enough to cleanly eject.

[1986s4]

I have had a P-30 for about 3 years. I shoot almost exclusively my own reloads which consist of VV N320 and a 125/125 gr bullet. I have tuned these to comfortably make power factor [125,000]. They are by no means full power and exhibit low flash in low/no light conditions. I don't know how this load compares to the PMC 115's you are shooting except that both maybe lower powered ammunition. The only issue I have ever had is when I was in a compromised shooting position, right hander crossing to my right shooting across my body dragging a dummy. Failure to extract almost every shot. It was, and is, in my opinion that the combination of less than full power ammo combined with a relatively weak shooting position combined to form a less than ideal backstop for the pistol.

[Tamara]

It was, and is, in my opinion that the combination of less than full power ammo combined with a relatively weak shooting position combined to form a less than ideal backstop for the pistol.

Dude, that might be the key ingredient.

F-Trooper05, how heavily-insulated are those gloves you're wearing?

[AJZ]

Check your thumbs/grip. Not uncommon, especially in gloves, to have the thumbs drag on the slide or place pressure on the slide lock lever, which may manifest itself in a failure to eject.

[JBP55]

The Op. said he was not wearing gloves when the pistol malfunctioned every shot.

[Tamara]

The Op. said he was not wearing gloves when the pistol malfunctioned every shot.

Ah. Missed that. I just ASSumed that sane people wore gloves when it was fifteen frickin' d-d-d-d-d-degrees out. ;)

[BoppaBear]

Lack of cleaning is something I will definetly admit to lol. And I didn't try any other ammo. I don't think there's a single box of 9mm in all of Fairbanks at the moment, so I can't afford to be picky.

Either way, this is no longer a carry gun, so I'm not too worrried about it. Just wanted to see what everyone here thought.

F-Trooper05, I had my first FTE/mal with my P30 at 5000 rounds. Fired the round, but did not pull the casing. The next round stipped from the mag and jammed in behind the spent casing and literally locked the slide open with no play. Mag release took some real pressure to drop the mag, and I was able to get the "live round" out by working the slide. Let the slide forward to allow the extractor to grab the spent casing, and it didn't on the first try. I had to rack it twice to get the spent casing out.

At first I thought it may have been an ammo issue. I had run 150 rounds left over from a course, and it was time to run some of my +p and +p+ carry ammo. Of course, the mal happened with the +p+...

Although I clean it often, I had just come off of a course, and although I had cleaned it, had run 1500 rounds through it in an fairly short amount of time. One thing I had omitted in my cleaning routine was cleaning the "hook" of the extractor that actually grabs the rim of the spent casing. When I got home I inspected it, and sure enough it had 5000 rounds worth of crap built up in the curve of the "hook" (my term for the j-shaped part of the extractor).

I used a toothpick to clean the crud, checked for any chipping, etc., and went back to the range. No issues at all since then, and I've purposely tried to recreate the issue with the exact same ammo. My P30 is one of my CCW's, along with an sk, so I wanted to run some more rounds to ensure it was the dirty extractor.

[joshs]

Which mainspring do you have in your P30? The combination of the stock LEM spring, a dirty/dry gun, and weak ammo usually causes exactly this stoppage. LEM P30s are slightly over-sprung and a lighter mainspring usually fixes this problem.

[Spr1]

Which mainspring do you have in your P30? The combination of the stock LEM spring, a dirty/dry gun, and weak ammo usually causes exactly this stoppage. LEM P30s are slightly over-sprung and a lighter mainspring usually fixes this problem.

HK part number 214300

[F-Trooper05]

Which mainspring do you have in your P30? The combination of the stock LEM spring, a dirty/dry gun, and weak ammo usually causes exactly this stoppage. LEM P30s are slightly over-sprung and a lighter mainspring usually fixes this problem.

I have a V3 mainspring in it.

Looks like I'll clean the gun (ugh :() and try different ammo, and see what happens.

[TGS]

Paul Howe or Sonny Puzikas? They are are not equal...

Pat Rogers and Travis Haley. They came as promotional items with a BCM upper I bought.

[Nephrology]

One other thought - have you checked the magazine?

Otherwise I would be inclined to blame the recoil spring assembly. Was the gun NIB when you bought it?

I suppose I just have a hard time imagining a gun like an HK choking due to powder residue after only 5k rounds...

[JV_]

I suppose I just have a hard time imagining a gun like an HK choking due to powder residue after only 5k rounds...They can choke on far fewer rounds. Vinh had a number of P30 extraction issues at Rogers, he could only make it through half a day before the chamber needed cleaning. There was something askew with his gun, and/or the ammo.

[TGS]

From hanging around HKPRO for a few years, I get the impression that when something is wrong with an HK it usually revolves around too tight of a chamber and/or an out-of-spec extractor that needs a proper radius. Most people who come on HKPRO with a problem usually have one of those two replaced when their gun goes back to HK.

I don't have any citations, but for some reason I'm recalling that HK makes their guns with slightly tighter chambers than average. This would make sense given that they're not SAAMI spec tapered chambers anyway. I guess if you're at the end of a life-cycle on tooling, you could be running on the tighter end of the spectrum and have problems when shooting weak ammo with a gun that hasn't been cleaned in thousands of rounds.

BaiHu's P30 was also doing this after having not been cleaned for 5k or 6k rounds, and a simple cleaning remedied stoppages. We'll see people with the exact same problem come on HKPRO every now and then....."My gun isn't running now. I haven't cleaned it in 5000 rounds. What's the deal?" Cleaning the extractor almost always solves it. Even for guys that have been "cleaning" them, it turns out that a lot of times they're not actually cleaning the channel in between the extractor and the breech face where the rim of the cartridge fits....the part that actually matters.

[GJM]

They can choke on far fewer rounds. Vinh had a number of P30 extraction issues at Rogers, he could only make it through half a day before the chamber needed cleaning. There was something askew with his gun, and/or the ammo.

JV, I thought it was both his P30's, which made me think it was a combo of the P30 and the TMJ ammo required on the Rogers Range?

[JV_]

JV, I thought it was both his P30's, which made me think it was a combo of the P30 and the TMJ ammo required on the Rogers Range?He discussed it here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4091-pistol-forum-com-Rogers-Shooting-School-trip-6-11-May-2012&p=70728&viewfull=1#post70728

He had problems before Rogers (w/o that ammo):


Two weeks prior to the class, both of my P30s began behaving badly. My diagnosis was that I had suddenly become a limpwrister. I made the drive down simply hoping for the best.

[1986s4]

At a recent indoor match we had a shooter with a newish P-30L in .40 [1500 rounds]. There was stage that called for an off hand string from a somewhat awkward position. He told me before the stage that he was worried about the off hand part, that his P-30 would malfunction. I told him about my experience in the same situation with my P-30. I suggested he get as high a grip as possible and lock his left arm out as best he could. With full power .40 his P-30 malfunctioned every shot of that string. It wasn't dirty, neither was mine at the time. In my opinion the P-30 needs a firm hand for best function.

[GJM]

In my opinion the P-30 needs a firm hand for best function.

P30, or all polymer pistols?

[1986s4]

P30, or all polymer pistols?

I don't have experience with all poly pistols so I can't say. I would also add this is a sample of two, mine and one I observed in action.

[JodyH]

I had FTExtract issues with Aguila in my P30, I chalked it up to the stepped chamber and slightly out of spec ammo causing tolerance stacking on the tight side.
I've never had that problem with my P2000 series pistols.
When comparing the P30 and P2000 chambers the P30 appears to have a slightly more pronounced step down in diameter.

[LSP972]

From hanging around HKPRO for a few years, I get the impression that when something is wrong with an HK it usually revolves around too tight of a chamber and/or an out-of-spec extractor that needs a proper radius. Most people who come on HKPRO with a problem usually have one of those two replaced when their gun goes back to HK.

I don't have any citations, but for some reason I'm recalling that HK makes their guns with slightly tighter chambers than average. This would make sense given that they're not SAAMI spec tapered chambers anyway. I guess if you're at the end of a life-cycle on tooling, you could be running on the tighter end of the spectrum and have problems when shooting weak ammo with a gun that hasn't been cleaned in thousands of rounds.

.

P30's and P2000's in Euro-Pellet caliber have stepped chambers (like most Lugers). Oddly, the pair of full size 9mm USPs I owned did not. Never handled a USPc in 9mm, so I dunno about it.

I have heard several explanations for the reasoning behind the stepped chamber, but I'm not certain which one is correct so I'll leave that alone. My P30 and P2000 have it, and both have been trouble-free. My bride has a pair of P30's in .40 caliber; they do not have a stepped chamber.

Bottom line... even the "best" guns can choke. I've had two P7s break on me, while the only malfs I've experienced with a host of other HK handguns has been due to messing around with bunny fart reloads... IOW, MY fault.

.