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pax
02-14-2013, 11:47 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm looking for someone. The person I'm looking for may not exist, but if she does, this forum probably knows who she is and how to find her. Can you help me out?

There are a bare handful of people who have true experience with violence in America. One of them is Rory Miller, who lost count of his uses of force somewhere around 400. Another is Southnarc, who worked undercover on the streets for years. The question is, Where do I find someone with similar experience and thoughtfulness who has dealt specifically with violence directed against female victims?

Presumably, there are a lot of women out there who've been dangled as bait for prostitution busts and similar things. Perhaps working undercover in the gangs. But I haven't found any who are writing or teaching on the civilian side, probably because there aren't yet a lot of women who have retired from law enforcement jobs.

I'm specifically looking for someone who can articulate differences & similarities in how a mugger or carjacker approaches & initiates a crime when the victim is female vs when victim is male.

pax

Tamara
02-15-2013, 06:56 AM
I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Plan
02-15-2013, 11:32 AM
Interesting, this does seem like an area of specialized training that is overlooked (LEO specific-stuff aside) and could be very valuable. Even just memoirs with annecdotal experiences would be helpful. Something to keep in mind is that a lot of officer safety (which really comes down to "safe practices for anyone operating in rough areas with unknown contacts") knowledge is shared in an informal manner between FTO-to-rookie, and is often taken for granted.

To answer your question, I would start by looking to recently retired female officers, preferably with a UC background, that might be willing to share some of their experiences with you. Maybe contact your local FOP. I once had a female Sergeant who worked in vice/narcotics for the better part of 18 years. She had a wealth of knowledge on the topic and definitely had some interesting stories to tell.

Al T.
02-15-2013, 11:45 AM
KJ, PM Nyeti - he probably is your best chance of locating such a person.

http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?1336-nyeti

Robert Mitchum
02-16-2013, 12:32 PM
I had 100's of use of force forms to write working 23 years in Corrections.
Most Americans have not a clue on how many predators our legal system lets out of correctional institutions every year.
To be honest most women I worked with where useless when it came to hands on use of force situations.

pax
02-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Thanks, people. I'll keep looking.

Kathy

Robert Mitchum
02-16-2013, 01:21 PM
If you want I can give you the facebook links to women I worked with in the DOC and see if they can help you.

John Ralston
02-16-2013, 02:00 PM
You might try contacting the Women's Tactical Assoc. womenstactical@sbcglobal.net

Chuck Haggard
02-16-2013, 06:46 PM
I know a gal with about 20 years as a cop who has done a bunch of dope and john sting type UC work. I'll call and see what she says.

Kukuforguns
02-27-2013, 04:02 PM
In addition to female vice LEOs, you may want to consider interviewing actual sex workers. There are any number of blogs by sex workers (http://www.google.com/search?q=courtesan+blog&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=). Given your reputation, mission, and presence on the internet, you may be able to arrange interviews with these individuals. Robbers' responses to surveys suggest that prostitutes and johns are favorite targets, because both will be carrying relatively large amounts of cash. Prostitutes have a right to self-defense, same as everyone else, and they are a high-risk demographic. They might be interested in what you have to teach.

nycnoob
02-27-2013, 10:06 PM
I do not know if this responses was serious or not, but in NYC they have a union so I would think that you would find these links more suitable then the google link posted:

http://www.pony-ny.org/

http://www.urbanjustice.org/ujc/projects/sex.html



In addition to female vice LEOs, you may want to consider interviewing actual sex workers. There are any number of blogs by sex workers (http://www.google.com/search?q=courtesan+blog&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=). Given your reputation, mission, and presence on the internet, you may be able to arrange interviews with these individuals. Robbers' responses to surveys suggest that prostitutes and johns are favorite targets, because both will be carrying relatively large amounts of cash. Prostitutes have a right to self-defense, same as everyone else, and they are a high-risk demographic. They might be interested in what you have to teach.

Tamara
03-01-2013, 06:47 AM
In addition to female vice LEOs, you may want to consider interviewing actual sex workers. There are any number of blogs by sex workers (http://www.google.com/search?q=courtesan+blog&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=).

canttellifserious.jpg

Kukuforguns
03-01-2013, 03:54 PM
What about my post suggested I was not serious? The only aspects that suggest such an interpretation to me are: (1) It was my first post; and maybe (2) my username.

My post was indeed meant to be a serious suggestion. Ms. Jackson was looking for women with first-hand experience with violent encounters. We all know that prostitutes exist. Furthermore, anyone who gives the matter any thought will realize that a woman locking herself up in a room alone with a strange man is a dangerous situation. It therefore seems very likely that prostitutes, as a group, may have greater experience with violent crime than the general female population.

Are prostitutes an uncomfortable subject? Sure. So are the people who pick through trash cans to collect recyclables. It concerns me that there are tens of thousands of women who may be routinely abused, and yet our discomfort with their livelihood causes us to ignore their experiences -- even when their experiences could help other women.

Byron
03-02-2013, 09:26 AM
What about my post suggested I was not serious?
You seemed to greatly miss the spirit of the inquiry.

Allow me to explain from my point of view...

First of all, the most specific portion of the original request was:

I'm specifically looking for someone who can articulate differences & similarities in how a mugger or carjacker approaches & initiates a crime when the victim is female vs when victim is male.
So your suggestion is already missing the mark when you are focused on issues like this:

...a woman locking herself up in a room alone with a strange man is a dangerous situation. It therefore seems very likely that prostitutes, as a group, may have greater experience with violent crime than the general female population.

But more importantly, you seem to not understand why people like Southnarc (Craig Douglas) are relevant in their field. He isn't someone that you take a class from just because he did UC buys for a long time and got jumped a bunch of times. If that's what it took to be the expert, then actual junkies, who did thousands more buys and got their asses kicked thousands more times, would be better experts.

Craig's expertise stems from the fact that on his UC buys, there was A/V recording (for court purposes). When a situation ended in violence, he would later consult the video and take notes. After compiling notes on countless buys that "went bad," he established a pattern of behaviors and indicators that warn of an impending assault. Since initially establishing that pattern, he has reviewed countless other videos of violence, seeing if his cues can indeed be found.

So if we're going back to what pax is looking for, we need a subject matter expert with a similar inclination towards thoughtful analysis. It's not just experience with violence that is the issue, but the ability to systematically analyze the patterns of said violence.

The other issue that confused me about your original suggestion is that you started by saying that prostitutes would be good subject matter experts, then end by saying that prostitutes would be good students:

In addition to female vice LEOs, you may want to consider interviewing actual sex workers.
...
Prostitutes have a right to self-defense, same as everyone else, and they are a high-risk demographic. They might be interested in what you have to teach.

While the two are not mutually exclusive, it just makes you look all over the map and further makes me question if you properly understood the initial request.

Reaching out to a group of prostitutes is simply unlikely to yield someone who has the same "thoughtfulness" that I've articulated above, which is what pax is requesting. What are the odds that upon sitting down with the local sex workers union, someone chips up and says, "Oh yea, I've been secretly videotaping all my johns, have analyzed the patterns of violence that occasionally occur, and can articulate the difference in how muggers and carjackers deal with females vs males"?

Kukuforguns
03-02-2013, 10:31 AM
You seemed to greatly miss the spirit of the inquiry.

Allow me to explain from my point of view...

First of all, the most specific portion of the original request was:

So your suggestion is already missing the mark when you are focused on issues like this:


But more importantly, you seem to not understand why people like Southnarc (Craig Douglas) are relevant in their field. He isn't someone that you take a class from just because he did UC buys for a long time and got jumped a bunch of times. If that's what it took to be the expert, then actual junkies, who did thousands more buys and got their asses kicked thousands more times, would be better experts.

Craig's expertise stems from the fact that on his UC buys, there was A/V recording (for court purposes). When a situation ended in violence, he would later consult the video and take notes. After compiling notes on countless buys that "went bad," he established a pattern of behaviors and indicators that warn of an impending assault. Since initially establishing that pattern, he has reviewed countless other videos of violence, seeing if his cues can indeed be found.

So if we're going back to what pax is looking for, we need a subject matter expert with a similar inclination towards thoughtful analysis. It's not just experience with violence that is the issue, but the ability to systematically analyze the patterns of said violence.

The other issue that confused me about your original suggestion is that you started by saying that prostitutes would be good subject matter experts, then end by saying that prostitutes would be good students:


While the two are not mutually exclusive, it just makes you look all over the map and further makes me question if you properly understood the initial request.

Reaching out to a group of prostitutes is simply unlikely to yield someone who has the same "thoughtfulness" that I've articulated above, which is what pax is requesting. What are the odds that upon sitting down with the local sex workers union, someone chips up and says, "Oh yea, I've been secretly videotaping all my johns, have analyzed the patterns of violence that occasionally occur, and can articulate the difference in how muggers and carjackers deal with females vs males"?
You are assuming that a person exists who fits Ms. Jackson's criteria. As much as I wish there were someone paying that type of attention to violence against women, I harbor my doubts that this type of analysis has already been performed. I have a feeling that Ms. Jackson will have to do a good deal of the analysis herself. As you say, Southnarc did not develop his expertise by reviewing a single video, but by reviewing thousands of videos. While there may be indeed thousands of videos of johns approaching UC LEOs, I strongly doubt that you are going to find thousands of videos of johns initiating violence against those UC LEOs. If my pessimistic assumptions are correct, neither the person Ms. Jackson has described nor the documentary evidence you describe exists. If Ms. Jackson is committed to obtaining the answers she seeks, she may well need to become the Southnarc of women's violence. Ms. Jackson is going to need to start collecting the best evidence available, which likely will be first-hand accounts of violence against women.

On a side note, do you really think it is unlikely that prostitutes are secretly video recording their sessions? They are not dumb. They know they are engaged in a dangerous business. I would not be surprised at all if they record their environment.

With respect to my comment that prostitutes might make willing students, it was meant to indicate that this could be a mutual back-scratching exchange. As criminals, prostitutes might be reluctant to freely share their experiences. Some may -- I don't have experience with prostitutes. If they don't, Ms. Jackson could offer to provide some basic training to prostitutes who would be willing to discuss their experiences.

Southnarcs don't wash ashore, wholly formed from the foaming ocean. I wish Ms. Jackson the best and hope she finds what she is trying to find. If she doesn't find it, I encourage her to develop the expertise she is trying to find.

Matthew Carberry
03-02-2013, 06:22 PM
Pax,

So you're interested in recognizable -physical- differences in technique the criminal uses to approach a female (intended) victim versus how they approach a man, all other things about the crime being equal? Not the behavioral science/victimology stuff about victim selection?

To over-simplify, once they choose the victim do they "sidle" one way with men and another with women and, if so, how?

I want to ask the right question.

pax
03-03-2013, 07:50 AM
Byron,

Thanks -- that's it, exactly.

Matthew,

I'm not sure I can yet formulate exactly the question I'm asking (if I had the right question, the answer might be inherent within it). But I am interested in the criminal's initial selection of the victim, how the criminal chooses which crime he's going to commit, how he initially approaches the victim to keep her defenses from going up, and the physical details of the attack process.

Marc MacYoung talks about the five stages of violent crime:


Intent
Positioning
Interview
Attack
Reaction


Marc says that the first three items on that list are not linear; they swap places sometimes based on the circumstances. Sometimes the intent to commit the crime comes after the interview (eg some victims give off a wounded-rabbit call that makes the predator's mouth water). Sometimes the positioning falls into place and sometimes they have to work for it. So there are several variables there that can shift around based on circumstances, and I want to know some ways that dance changes when there's a female victim. It does change in some obvious ways, because women are subject to some types of attacks men rarely face, just as men are subject to types of attacks women rarely face. For example, I don't know of a lot of female bar fighters or bouncers, and while men do sometimes get raped, sexual assault isn't high on the list of things most men would expect to face. So the types of crimes shift, and we could expect to see differences in the interview process based on the type of victim the criminal wants to use.

So that's one piece of the puzzle I'd like a better look at, the question of how the interview changes based on the victim's demographic & personal details.

There's another piece: how does the criminal choose which crime he's going to commit? Let me unpack that a little, because that sounds almost like a silly question, but it's not. We know that young men need to learn how to see a status seeking show for what it is, and (closely related) how to defuse the tensions created by the monkey dance. These skills help stop "Whadda you lookin' at!?" from turning into a violent crime. Related, we know that both men and women benefit from learning how to handle the dynamics of a simple mugging, which can help avoid the mugging from turning into a violent assault. So the related question is, are there similar skills women could be using to help keep a simple carjacking from turning into a kidnapping/rape/murder? Or things one can do to help avoid the criminal switching from a burglary to a rape?

I also want to know some of the variables the criminals key on when selecting the victim. Body language is a big part of it, but most of the people who have studied body language have looked at it through men's eyes. I want to know if there's anyone out there who has looked at it through womens' eyes. Is a sexy walk, wearing high heels, walking like you're in a dress -- are all of those things automatically calling the predator, or is there something else that just goes alongside those things and is what's actually sending that signal?

Kathy

nycnoob
03-03-2013, 09:32 AM
Hi Kathy,

I did not recognize your nick. We met once when I interrupted your class, I was looking for Todd.

I wish to make a slight digression here to point out some Male/Female issues from your original post.
From the way it was phrased I assumed that the poster was some male martial arts instructor looking
for some ultimate martial secrets (all bluster and no content). There are certainly plenty of those on the web.
And instead of asking thoughtful questions it appeared you were looking for an ultimate answer.
Further I actually assumed that Tam was mocking you with her followup post, as in "I wish to follow you,
oh great leader and martial arts master". It did seem like you were trying to "win the martial-arts Internets".
There may be others here who were similarly mislead by the style of the original post as to your intent.

I would suggest talking with William April. He seems to have the most knowledge about violent criminal motivations. I still have nightmares about the criminal who decided he had a free afternoon so could spend the time flaying the home owner. He is also very knowledgeable about the classes which are commercially available and can help you to figure out which approaches are useful.

Another resource might be Larry Lindenman. In particular he has written some very insightful comments about body language when interrogating suspects and has been able to draw from non traditional sources (the current crop of book on "how to pick up girls") to improve his police work. I know he is currently working on developing a self-defense class (personal awareness MUC class) especially for women.


Also there is Tania Pendarakis who is known for teaching a course on pre-assault cues. She was recommended by Massad Ayoob and was the only other person I could find who had a sort of followup class to SouthNarc's MUC. I am planning on taking her course.


COURSE TITLE
"Liar, Liar Face on Fire; Detecting Deception in Subjects, Suspects, Victims and Witnesses"


COURSE LENGTH
8 hours

COURSE OBJECTIVES
Study the elements of establishing rapport
Classify different learning and sorting styles
Study human physiological responses to stress
Recognize Fight or Flight behavior indicators
Identify aggressive behavior cues
Discuss techniques to maximize officer safety
Identify non-verbal cues that can indicate deception
Recognize verbal cues that can indicate deception
Analyze facial expressions and eye movements
Discuss the psychology of lying
Design strategies to prepare for contact
Determine interviewing and interrogation best practices

http://www.athenatraining.net/documents/about_us.html

http://www.liarliarfaceonfire.com/instructor_profile.html

Tamara
03-03-2013, 01:54 PM
Further I actually assumed that Tam was mocking you with her followup post, as in "I wish to follow you,
oh great leader and martial arts master".

Heck, no! I thought it was a frickin' genius idea and it's so obvious in hindsight that I was a little embarrassed that it had never crossed my mind before.

pax
03-04-2013, 12:29 PM
nycnoob,

Thanks - that's very helpful. I'll track those people down. :)

Kathy

Mr_White
03-04-2013, 12:58 PM
nycnoob,

Thanks - that's very helpful. I'll track those people down. :)

Kathy

Kathy,

You can find William April and Larry Lindenman on TPI.

Gabe

Wayne Dobbs
03-06-2013, 08:49 AM
Kathy,

William April was a presenter at the conference this past weekend. Tom Givens can get you in touch with him. Was great meeting you and talking!

Wayne Dobbs

pax
03-06-2013, 11:35 AM
Thanks, Wayne. It was good to meet you, too.

I caught William Aprill's presentation last year, missed it this year (made a conscious decision not to repeat anything, since there was so much material I hadn't yet seen -- but in a few cases, sticking to that decision really gave me a wrench...). I'll drop him a note!

Kathy

BaiHu
03-06-2013, 03:30 PM
good discussion on the war on 2A and women:

http://www.therightscoop.com/democrat-strategist-guns-arent-the-answer-just-tell-me-to-stop-raping-women/

TGS
03-06-2013, 05:36 PM
good discussion on the war on 2A and women:

http://www.therightscoop.com/democrat-strategist-guns-arent-the-answer-just-tell-me-to-stop-raping-women/

I had an encounter with one of "these" people this summer. Simply by my existence of being a man, I encourage "rape culture".......apparently.

Tamara
03-06-2013, 07:38 PM
good discussion on the war on 2A and women:

http://www.therightscoop.com/democrat-strategist-guns-arent-the-answer-just-tell-me-to-stop-raping-women/

Free advice and worth every penny: There's a fine line between "good self-defense advice" and "victim blaming". Without a good handle on where that line is, it's best to just stay far, far away from it.

David Armstrong
03-07-2013, 12:58 PM
Hi pax...have you tried Vicki Farnam? I know whe has really been trying to develop firearms and security training specifially targeted for females and has done a lot of research on the issue over the last decade. She might be able to direct you to somebody.