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View Full Version : Stuff happens too fast to draw & defend, maybe time to take gun grab training



cclaxton
02-11-2013, 02:15 PM
Friend of mine tells me three stories about gun violence he personally witnessed. He is black, and grew up in DC. He is 38yo man now.

Story #1: His brother was murdered while leaving a mini-mart in DC because the local gang didn't trust him. The put a gun to his head as he was exiting and pulled the trigger. I asked my friend if he thought he could have defended himself with a firearm, and he said he wouldn't have had time to even draw the gun. In his opinion there is nothing his brother could have done to defend himself.

Story #2: My friend (let's call him Al) and his friend (let's call him Fred) are outside a DC nightclub when two guys come up and were trying to get money owed them from Fred. One holds a gun against Al's head and the other assailant holds a semiauto against Fred's chest. Fred tried to challenge the assailant saying he didn't owe the money and the assailant pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed, and in the scuffle the two of them got away. Again, I asked Al if he could have defended himself with a handgun and he said it just happened too fast to react, and running was the best option. The guy came up from behind and had the gun to his head and he was completely surprised....they both were.

Story #3: He told me of a job he had in DC during the 80's and he had to walk home and a gunman surprised him to rob him. Again, he said he would have had no time to react and defend himself with a handgun. He went on to tell how afraid he was because "almost every night" he walked home he saw a dead body from gunshots. This was the 80's during a bad crack epidemic.

All of a sudden I am really interested in taking one of those gun grabbing self-defense classes. But, perhaps experts here can help propose alternative defense tactics and helpful suggestions, ideas, etc.

Situational awareness might have helped, but when you are surprised.....you are surprised.
CC

JV_
02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
It sounds like ECQC is right up your alley

Kyle Reese
02-11-2013, 02:49 PM
Paging Southnarc..... :)

taadski
02-11-2013, 03:05 PM
LOL. I was gonna say "I know this guy". :D

www.shivworks.com

ezthumper
02-11-2013, 03:08 PM
Why the focus on the hand gun?

How about a different question, what could he have done...

jetfire
02-11-2013, 04:08 PM
Don't get involved with gangbangers in DC, and don't borrow money from scumbags.

ford.304
02-11-2013, 04:28 PM
There does tend to be that assumption in legitimate personal defense training that you *don't* have a group of killers actually seeking to assassinate you. It's self defense training, not James Bond training.

Shawn.L
02-11-2013, 05:33 PM
It sounds like ECQC is right up your alley


Paging Southnarc..... :)

Ambushed? Behind the Curve? Caught by suprise by assailants with superior numbers and arms ?

Yeah

http://shivworks.com/

It seems trite to just say "take ECQC" and have a bunch of guys go "take ECQC" , but the truth is that not only is it the most relevant instruction available for your (and all of our really) question but its also more of an experience that must be had than something that can be easily explained. Read the many AAR's on the course, watch the plethora of videos, and just trust us and get to the next one available as a top priority.

SouthNarc
02-11-2013, 05:47 PM
Well it sounds like in all three cases there were factors regarding life choices, daily decisions, and associations that were the genesis of all three events. There isn't much in the realm of tactics and techniques that can overcome alot of what you described in my opinion. I was robbed/ripped at gunpoint in the two years I worked undercover on nine separate occasions and only in one did I actually go for the fight option. That cost me some hearing but kept a bullet out of my head. On another occasion I had a fight in the buy vehicle when a guy went for a gun that got stuck in his pants and discharged right between his legs without hitting him. I don't count that one because he never got the muzzle on me. And I got robbed a once at knife point.

Generally speaking unless my gut said he was going to do me ( and that was only once) I let them rob me because it was always being captured on video and made for a slam dunk for an armed robbery charge. Now I'm not saying DON'T take action, but I can't give you a tidy decision matrix on how to know when a bad guy just wants something from you and when he decides he's going to kill you. You only learn that from spending ALOT of time in street culture and that's just not an option for the average joe.

Some things there just aren't any tactics for except general principles of speed, surprise, and violence of action, and even then the initiative deficit may very well be to deep.

I hate to sound like a shill but alot of this would be answered for you by doing the coursework. And it will probably generate some more questions that you had not considered also.

LOKNLOD
02-11-2013, 11:04 PM
...by doing the coursework. And it will probably generate some more questions that you had not considered also.

Understatement.

orionz06
02-11-2013, 11:16 PM
You need more ECQC in your life.

Jay Cunningham
02-11-2013, 11:25 PM
You only learn that from spending ALOT of time in street culture and that's just not an option for the average joe.

Some things there just aren't any tactics for except general principles of speed, surprise, and violence of action, and even then the initiative deficit may very well be to deep.

I think this is important. Most instructors wouldn't say this in regards to their own coursework. Most would gussy it up.

ChrisG
02-12-2013, 12:07 PM
I echo the recommendations to take ECQC, and specifically the May course in Culpeper. You will get a better understanding of the dynamics you're discussing from a single two-minute training evolution in ECQC than you could from 10,000 hours of internet forum discussions. It may sound like group-think with everyone giving you the same advice, but I assure you the course material really is that good.

jthhapkido
02-12-2013, 04:29 PM
I'd like to give loud, sustained applause to SouthNarc for his response---because quite frankly (and no offense meant, because I don't know him) I expected (given the responses from other people) that he would say "well, our class will help you deal with that sort of thing" even though pretty much no class would actually have helped.

He said:


Well it sounds like in all three cases there were factors regarding life choices, daily decisions, and associations that were the genesis of all three events. There isn't much in the realm of tactics and techniques that can overcome alot of what you described in my opinion.

That is just completely spot on. The circumstances surrounding the situations lead to the problems, and in all three cases, there was no magic technique that really would have helped. At least, not necessarily very much.

Sometimes, you are simply screwed by the situation. (And the people in it, though hopefully not literally.)

Sometimes, there is a way out. And sometimes, your training gives you a chance where you wouldn't have otherwise had it. But often---especially by surprise, you are just screwed, and there really isn't anything to be done.

A lot of instructors would have made some boast at that point, about how their techniques would have given the OP choices, etc, how it could have been handled--and they would have been full of it.

So kudos to Southnarc. Seriously. This is not sarcasm---I'm really impressed.



{snip}
Generally speaking unless my gut said he was going to do me ( and that was only once) I let them rob me because it was always being captured on video and made for a slam dunk for an armed robbery charge. Now I'm not saying DON'T take action, but I can't give you a tidy decision matrix on how to know when a bad guy just wants something from you and when he decides he's going to kill you. You only learn that from spending ALOT of time in street culture and that's just not an option for the average joe.

Some things there just aren't any tactics for except general principles of speed, surprise, and violence of action, and even then the initiative deficit may very well be to deep.

Sometimes, there isn't anything to do once you are in it. Now, making different choices prior to the situation would have made a difference---but often we figure that out too late. :) (I would say that given the situations from the OP, perhaps some personal re-adjustments about choices might be in order? Or an acceptance that such things will continue if you don't change you habits?)

Violence is complicated--and many people simply don't have the internal reference points (and emotional understanding) to deal with societal violence. They might have the will and the techniques--but understanding why people go with violence, what triggers it, and what is important to know to change the situation (de-escalation for social violence and for asocial violence are two very different things!) is simply something most people don't have any experience with. Nothing like it has ever occurred in their normal lives (lived under normal societal rules), so when it DOES occur, it is completely outside of their understanding.



I hate to sound like a shill but alot of this would be answered for you by doing the coursework. And it will probably generate some more questions that you had not considered also.

I'd already put "take ECQC" on my to-do list, but given SouthNarc's response, I'm a lot more likely to make the time for it in the near future, as opposed to "sometime".

KravPirate
02-12-2013, 05:16 PM
Yep. ECQC. I train with a lot of switched on dudes and ECQC is the best reality check I have ever had. Worth every penny.

SouthNarc
02-12-2013, 05:52 PM
Thanks guys I appreciate the kind words.:)

cclaxton
02-12-2013, 06:07 PM
These are great responses, especially someone like SouthNarc who has lived with these situations in the streets.

This friend of mine explains it this way: This is the neighborhoods where he grew up and to him this was "normal" and he didn't get any training in self-defense. So for him it was the risks associated with living life in DC. Sad to say he just kind of accepted it as the way things were so he wasn't that alarmed until his brother was murdered. Then he moved out.

Front Sight put a lot of emphasis on Situational Awareness and making conscious decisions to stay away from situations and think ahead about walking past alleyways, getting in/out of cars with people in vehicles next to you or vans parked next to you, etc. In other words, analyzing the locations where you are and think ahead to consider where and when bad guys might lurk. After hearing these stories from my friend, I am putting that into action.

I will be looking at videos in the meantime until I can afford to schedule time/money to do the ECQC training.

Continue keeping the thread going if others have more to offer.

FYI: I just watched Cocaine Cowboys on Netflix....wow...anybody who was in LE for those times (on the right side) must have been scared sh*tless from the Medellin Cartel goons. If anyone has not seen it...highly recommended.

Thanks,
CC