Fratricide - Christopher Dorner

[Shellback]

I hope ex-LAPD Officer Christopher Dorner is caught before more lives are lost (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/riverside-police-ambushed-by-shooter-official-says.html). This guy needs to get shut down immediately!

Christopher Dorner's Manifesto (http://ktla.com/2013/02/07/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#axzz2KCCI0t9t).

This appears to be the uncensored manifesto (http://boywithgrenade.org/2013/02/07/christopher-dorners-manifesto/#more-15057).

[Shellback]

This excerpt is from the "uncensored manifesto". I have predicted something similar several times. Anti-gun wingnut takes one for the team.


If you had a well regulated AWB, this would not happen. The time is now to reinstitute a ban that will save lives. Why does any sportsman need a 30 round magazine for hunting? Why does anyone need a suppressor? Why does anyone need a AR15 rifle? This is the same small arms weapons system utilized in eradicating Al Qaeda, Taliban, and every enemy combatant since the Vietnam war. Don’t give me that crap that its not a select fire or full auto rifle like the DoD uses. That’s bullshit because troops who carry the M-4/M-16 weapon system for combat ops outside the wire rarely utilize the select fire function when in contact with enemy combatants. The use of select fire probably isn’t even 1% in combat. So in essence, the AR-15 semiautomatic rifle is the same as the M-4/M-16. These do not need to be purchased as easily as walking to your local Walmart or striking the enter key on your keyboard to “add to cart”. All the firearms utilized in my activities are registered to me and were legally purchased at gun stores and private party transfers. All concealable weapons (pistols) were also legally register in my name at police stations or FFL’s. Unfortunately, are you aware that I obtained class III weapons (suppressors) without a background check thru NICS or DROS completely LEGALLY several times? I was able to use a trust account that I created on quicken will maker and a $10 notary charge at a mailbox etc. to obtain them legally. Granted, I am not a felon, nor have a DV misdemeanor conviction or active TRO against me on a NCIC file. I can buy any firearm I want, but should I be able to purchase these class III weapons (SBR’s, and suppressors) without a background check and just a $10 notary signature on a quicken will maker program? The answer is NO. I’m not even a resident of the state i purchased them in. Lock n Load just wanted money so they allow you to purchase class III weapons with just a notarized trust, military ID. Shame on you, Lock n Load. NFA and ATF need new laws and policies that do not allow loopholes such as this. In the end, I hope that you will realize that the small arms I utilize should not be accessed with the ease that I obtained them. Who in there right mind needs a fucking silencer!!! who needs a freaking SBR AR15? No one. No more Virginia Tech, Columbine HS, Wisconsin temple, Aurora theatre, Portland malls, Tucson rally, Newtown Sandy Hook. Whether by executive order or thru a bi-partisan congress an assault weapons ban needs to be re-instituted. Period!!!

Mia Farrow said it best. “Gun control is no longer debatable, it’s not a conversation, its a moral mandate.”

Sen. Feinstein, you are doing the right thing in leading the re-institution of a national AWB. Never again should any public official state that their prayers and thoughts are with the family. That has become cliche’ and meaningless. Its time for action. Let this be your legacy that you bestow to America. Do not be swayed by obstacles, antagaonist, and naysayers. Remember the innocent children at Austin, Kent, Stockton, Fullerton, San Diego, Iowa City, Jonesboro, Columbine, Nickel Mines, Blacksburg, Springfield, Red Lake, Chardon, Aurora, and Newtown. Make sure this never happens again!!!

In my cache you will find several small arms. In the cache, Bushmaster firearms, Remington precision rifles, and AAC Suppressors (silencers). All of these small arms are manufactured by Cerberus/Freedom Group. The same company responsible for the Portland mall shooting, Webster , NY, and Sandy Hook massacre.

The "Lock N Load" he mentions is a gun store here in Las Vegas.

[LOKNLOD]

Wow.

Is the uncensored manifesto verified authentic?


This excerpt is from the "uncensored manifesto". I have predicted something similar several times. Anti-gun wingnut takes one for the team.

Shame on you, Lock n Load.
The "Lock N Load" he mentions is a gun store here in Las Vegas.

Whew. If I get called out in a manifesto, I want it spelled correctly.

[Shellback]

And now cops are shooting innocent citizens (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-lapd-cop-manhunt.html)...

As authorities swarmed the area, two officer-involved shootings occurred in Torrance after police came across vehicles they thought might be Dorner's.
The first Torrance incident occurred about 5:20 a.m. in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue in Torrance, Lt. Devin Chase said. That incident involved Los Angeles police detectives from the Hollywood division, sources said.

Two people were struck by gunfire and transported to an area hospital with unknown injuries, Chase said. No officers were injured.

The second incident, which involved Torrance police officers, occurred at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street about 5:45 a.m. No injuries were reported in that incident.

Chase said both incidents involved vehicles matching the description of the one sought in connection with Dorner.

"Now it appears neither of them are directly related," Chase said. "In both of them, officers believed they were at the time."

[Shellback]

Wow.

Is the uncensored manifesto verified authentic?



Whew. If I get called out in a manifesto, I want it spelled correctly.

It matches Fox's version. http://wap.myfoxla.com/w/main/story/84473837/

[LOKNLOD]

Thanks for the link. I'm at work so I hesitated on the blog link.

Assuming it's valid -- Wow. Dude is 10 kinds of crazy. All over the map with the rest of that letter!

[Chemsoldier]

Hmmm...dunno about the veracity of the sections about gun control.

I would be delighted if it were true, but I have been burned before. At the moment it doesnt feel right. He has an abvious axe to grind with LAPD and his rambling manifesto seems to be about his work, a lot of military terms sprinkled in. The gun control stuff seems like poor cliches thrown out by a pro-gun person trying to smear the other side, shout outs to Hillary and GOV Christie, strong support for the .gov.

Oh...that reminds me there was a rant about targeting lesbian officers earlier in the rant and then later an appeal for homosexual rights. This "uncensored" manifesto smells rotten.

[JRB]

Hmmm...dunno about the veracity of the sections about gun control.

I would be delighted if it were true, but I have been burned before. At the moment it doesnt feel right. He has an abvious axe to grind with LAPD and his rambling manifesto seems to be about his work, a lot of military terms sprinkled in. The gun control stuff seems like poor cliches thrown out by a pro-gun person trying to smear the other side, shout outs to Hillary and GOV Christie, strong support for the .gov.

Oh...that reminds me there was a rant about targeting lesbian officers earlier in the rant and then later an appeal for homosexual rights. This "uncensored" manifesto smells rotten.

The writing style, misspelled words, etc. don't deviate at all from one section to the next, at least, if that part was added in, it's exceptionally well done and that's a hell of a lot of content to suddenly ghost write right after this went public. The motives to redact all of that support for an AWB and the support for the politicians mentioned therein are so painfully obvious as to need no further explanation.
His rant against lesbian officers was on a premise of bigotry on the part of those lesbian officers against straight guys and others. From what I can see, his plea is for equal rights and the absence of prejudice and bigotry which stacks alarmingly well with his party-line-liberal 'I love the government' awards speech at the end.

The part about firearms laws, and specifically his acquisition of suppressors via an NFA trust and military ID from a store in Las Vegas *IS* plausible, and is also something that could likely be vetted by that SOT's documentation.

His rant about how AR15's are near-as-makes-no-difference to the M4/M16's issued to troops isn't wrong - we rarely, if ever, have cause to use burst or FA fire from an M4 or M16 because that's what SAW gunners and the guy on the 240 is supposed to do. As such, it has just as much potential to damage an argument against an AWB on a technical premise of FA vs. SA function as it does to hurt support of an AWB or the politicians mentioned from a guilt-by-admiration standpoint. Same goes for the potential backlash against NFA trusts.

While I'm no psychologist, I can't help but feel like the reason it reads in such a peculiar manner is because he's simply lost his marbles. While he's obviously pissed off to no end in the early part, even if he wrote that whole rant in one sitting, once some time has passed, he'd have calmed down once his $0.02 on the LAPD's problems are all typed out.
Then his next topics of discussion come up and he simply says everything about every subject on which he's got an opinion. He's not constrained by time because the first shot hasn't been fired, he feels like he's got a lot to say, so he just lets it all spill out.

I wouldn't bet a lot on it, but I'd bet that the 'unredacted' one with all the bizarre AWB support and liberal shout-outs are his thoughts and words.

[JRB]

It looks like the LAPD isn't above making terrible mistakes. It's mistakes like this that can drum up support and vindication for wackjobs like Dorner.

They were on the lookout for a dark grey or blue 2005 Titan, two cops end up magdumping on a light blue Tacoma with two women in it running a paper route.
Terrible.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html

[Shellback]

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/4024/6a00d8341c630a53ef017d4z.jpg

[Shellback]

More than a couple spent rounds...

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/4216/latbcpixla0008167035201.jpg

[BaiHu]

Anti-Reporter: "So, Joe Gunowner, why do you need an AR15?"
Joe Gunowner: "Well, I ain't that smart, I ain't that rich and I don't understand many of the words that come out of your purdy, mumbo-jumbo mouth, but I just heard that some ex-cop just went and shot some folks and I dunno if he knew that it's against the law. So if he comes at me with an AR15, well I'd like to have a level playing field."
Anti-Reporter: "So, if he came at you with artillery, then you'd like some artillery?"
Joe Gunowner: "Hell no! I'd want to be on his side."

Sorry, but my brain just vibrated out of my skull when I read this 'manifesto' earlier.

[JRB]

Sorry, but my brain just vibrated out of my skull when I read this 'manifesto' earlier.

When I read it, my brain felt like it was trying to headbang my frontal lobe against the inside of my skull in the hopes that it'd knock me unconscious before I could read any more of it. The only way to calm down involved a 15 year old single malt.

It was a few minutes past noon and I'm off today - but still. I can't remember a time I felt this compelled to drink just after lunch.

[Shellback]

The Honda...

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/tacmedic4450/20130207_094910_aatruck4_GALLERY_zpsc2de552c.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img841/6061/lamemanhuntexlapdoffice.jpg

[CMG]

Maybe NY was on to something when they forgot to exempt LE from their new mag restriction legislation.

/sarcasm

[Shellback]

Better resolution.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/tacmedic4450/pphp_zpsd47ed614.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/tacmedic4450/pphp2_zps974bfb28.jpg

[Chemsoldier]

Well, CNN has been carrying the story of a madman with an "Assault Weapon" below a story on Australian sports steroid use. So my cynical side says if they are downplaying the story, the idea of him being a flaming liberal has more credibility.

[Shellback]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/tacmedic4450/i-8DcNmhx-L_zps2c8258f4.jpg

[Al T.]

Mad dog. Bet he hits again after dark. Suspect he's got some sort of safe house set up and is biding his time.

[Shellback]

Live feed of manhunt from helo in the mountains. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/live-video/

[Chemsoldier]

This guy is already dead, he just hasnt stopped breathing yet. He talked in his manifesto about targeting police family members and has actually killed some. They could find him duct taped to the wall and naked, he is gonna get shot and to be honest I couldnt care less. I have more important things to worry about that ROE violations. There is a sequesterance thing, unrest in north africa and the latest antics of lindsey lohan to monitor...I am a busy dude.

[LOKNLOD]

This guy is already dead, he just hasnt stopped breathing yet. He talked in his manifesto about targeting police family members and has actually killed some. They could find him duct taped to the wall and naked, he is gonna get shot and to be honest I couldnt care less. I have more important things to worry about that ROE violations. There is a sequesterance thing, unrest in north africa and the latest antics of lindsey lohan to monitor...I am a busy dude.

Maybe we can get him with a predator drone...

[Shellback]

Interesting perspectives to gauge distance.

http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/torrance-shootings.jpg?w=300

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1257842!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-lapd3-0207.jpg

[JHC]

Maybe we can get him with a predator drone...

OH yeah. Compare and contrast with the thread about targetted killing of Islamic terrorists. ;)

[Shellback]

Mailed to Anderson Cooper:


http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/medallion_zps35a5e55f.jpeg[/QUOTE]

[Odin Bravo One]

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/4024/6a00d8341c630a53ef017d4z.jpg

Nice tight groups too.............

[Shellback]

Nice tight groups too.............

"All right, pop quiz. Airport, gunman with one hostage. He's using her for cover; he's almost to a plane. You're a hundred feet away... Jack?"

"Shoot the hostage."

[RoyGBiv]

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/4024/6a00d8341c630a53ef017d4z.jpg

I know this bastard needs to be stopped, but am I the only one here outraged that innocent civilians are subject to this contemptible behavior from the police? I'm hoping to find a story that explains how two sets of innocents made some move that deserved a hail of bullets, but I've not seen it yet.

Is this the result of fear overcoming training or just some intense desire to "kill the bastard" that's so endangering the lives of Angelinos?

Did anyone hear what the explanation is for this??

[G60]

I know this bastard needs to be stopped, but am I the only one here outraged that innocent civilians are subject to this contemptible behavior from the police? I'm hoping to find a story that explains how two sets of innocents made some move that deserved a hail of bullets, but I've not seen it yet.

Is this the result of fear overcoming training or just some intense desire to "kill the bastard" that's so endangering the lives of Angelinos?

Did anyone hear what the explanation is for this??

Driving while Black, probably.

[Nik the Greek]

Apparently they were newspaper delivery women. They were driving through the neighborhood with their lights off out of respect for the deliverees, and might have run a stop sign. This occurred near one of the homes with a security detail.

Pretty thin as far as I'm concerned and should not absolve the officers responsible for their utter failure to identify their target.

[Shellback]

LV Metro just searched his house less than a mile away from mine here in Vegas. My guess is that's how dude knew about Lock N Load and buying stuff from them here locally.

[Shellback]

Driving while Black, probably.

Nope, about 5' and they appeared to be Mexican. Saw them getting loaded into an ambulance on the news.

[Odin Bravo One]

I know this bastard needs to be stopped, but am I the only one here outraged that innocent civilians are subject to this contemptible behavior from the police? I'm hoping to find a story that explains how two sets of innocents made some move that deserved a hail of bullets, but I've not seen it yet.

Is this the result of fear overcoming training or just some intense desire to "kill the bastard" that's so endangering the lives of Angelinos?

Did anyone hear what the explanation is for this??

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with my smart ass comment regarding groups.

I'm not convinced there is an explanation that justifies the end result in that photograph. This is not about Monday AM QBing, or second guessing an officer on the road's judgment. And it has nothing to do with knowing all of the facts. The facts of that photograph say plenty.

I am simply having a hard time conceiving a situation where a reasonable response is a couple of mag dumps into the back windows, which are tinted, which day or night, at the distance from the patrol car, means there is no possible way they identified shit. Unless they have X-Ray MDT's. I'm pretty unimpressed in most officer involved shootings that make the news. Mostly because they are embarrassing exceptions to the professionalism, dedication, and courage displayed by the majority of officers on a day to day basis. But this is well beyond unimpressed. This is disgusting, and criminal. At a minimum, it is with criminal negligence.

Drone strikes on whoever, whenever, wherever. With or without any sort of due process. Cops doing mag dumps into civilians. Twice in one day.

Seriously.............WTF.........

[TGS]

Drone strikes on whoever, whenever, wherever. With or without any sort of due process. Cops doing mag dumps into civilians. Twice in one day.

Seriously.............WTF.........

yyyyyuuuuuuuuuup.


I'm not one to advocate the wearing of tin foil, but the country is looking a bit on the crazy side right now.

[John Ralston]

Mostly because they are embarrassing exceptions to the professionalism, dedication, and courage displayed by the majority of officers on a day to day basis. But this is well beyond unimpressed. This is disgusting, and criminal. At a minimum, it is with criminal negligence.

Seriously.............WTF.........

Could NOT have said it better. I am at a loss to comprehend how this happened.

[TCinVA]

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with my smart ass comment regarding groups.

I'm not convinced there is an explanation that justifies the end result in that photograph. This is not about Monday AM QBing, or second guessing an officer on the road's judgment. And it has nothing to do with knowing all of the facts. The facts of that photograph say plenty.

I am simply having a hard time conceiving a situation where a reasonable response is a couple of mag dumps into the back windows, which are tinted, which day or night, at the distance from the patrol car, means there is no possible way they identified shit. Unless they have X-Ray MDT's. I'm pretty unimpressed in most officer involved shootings that make the news. Mostly because they are embarrassing exceptions to the professionalism, dedication, and courage displayed by the majority of officers on a day to day basis. But this is well beyond unimpressed. This is disgusting, and criminal. At a minimum, it is with criminal negligence.

Drone strikes on whoever, whenever, wherever. With or without any sort of due process. Cops doing mag dumps into civilians. Twice in one day.

Seriously.............WTF.........

I really need to buy you a beer one day.

I can understand being apprehensive about a killer nutcase on the loose, but that does not justify hosing down anything that moves. If people are that panicky they aren't fit to be wearing the uniform.

[98z28]

The article said they were delivering papers. They were probably digging around in the truck grabbing papers and the cops were a tad on edge. Although the truck is stopped a good distance from the patrol car in the pictures, there is no guarantee it was stopped when the shooting started. It may have rolled forward before stopping where we see it in the pictures.

Paper delivery drivers look incredibly suspicious when you don't know what they are doing. They can also be so engrossed in grabbing papers and checking addresses that they don't notice the flashing blue lights for a while. We've had a couple of slow-speed pursuits with paper deliverers before the officer and the delivery person figured out what was happening. It's always entertaining to here something alone the lines of, "Headquarters, disregard additional units. It's the paper boy." come over the radio after an officer calls a short pursuit.

I'm not excusing the actions of those officers, I don't know what the hell happened. I can imagine how such a tragic mistake could be made though.

[SeriousStudent]

Prayers sent for the the wounded and the dead. I hope that no more innocents are hurt, and this is resolved quickly and successfully.

[Dagga Boy]

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with my smart ass comment regarding groups.

I'm not convinced there is an explanation that justifies the end result in that photograph. This is not about Monday AM QBing, or second guessing an officer on the road's judgment. And it has nothing to do with knowing all of the facts. The facts of that photograph say plenty.

I am simply having a hard time conceiving a situation where a reasonable response is a couple of mag dumps into the back windows, which are tinted, which day or night, at the distance from the patrol car, means there is no possible way they identified shit. Unless they have X-Ray MDT's. I'm pretty unimpressed in most officer involved shootings that make the news. Mostly because they are embarrassing exceptions to the professionalism, dedication, and courage displayed by the majority of officers on a day to day basis. But this is well beyond unimpressed. This is disgusting, and criminal. At a minimum, it is with criminal negligence.

Drone strikes on whoever, whenever, wherever. With or without any sort of due process. Cops doing mag dumps into civilians. Twice in one day.

Seriously.............WTF.........


Before I start, let me just say I agree with you 100%. I am big on calling a spade a spade. I look at shooting incidents involving cops, civilians, military guys, with the eye of an instructor and a student and trying to find out what can we learn and what can we do better. It is how we figure out how to train better. We need critical analysis of what went wrong. Often its hard for people to admit mistakes were made, so nothing changes.

Now for "how" this crap happens. Guys who are scared and lack the training to make good decisions under stress make mistakes. I would also venture that these were not graveyard coppers, but guys assigned to protect a residence of someone on the list. As a guy who worked nights almost all of my career, I will tell you that the newspaper delivery people drive and act like criminals. Most good graveyard cops know what their paper delivery people look like, and the cars they drive because they usually look suspicious. I really had to learn my delivery people as not only a graveyard patrol cop, but when working in a helicopter as well. They haul ass all over the place at night, they are very erratic and simply used to being out and about when only them, cops, and criminals usually are. In this case, the women driving the truck were probably driving like normal (all over the road), and in this case without lights (which is weird), and the cops made a horrific error in judgement and didn't follow their normal procedures. I try to advise people about this often when I read bullshit on the internet about how super awesome they are with safety. People get scared, the fingers get on triggers when they shouldn't be, and they react out of fear. It happens a lot. This is why we need to learn from it. This is also why training is so critical........unfortunately, many police departments have decided that training isn't that big of a priority and it is often cut, irrelavent, minimal and administrators often don't care as it is not likely to directly affect them. The public pays the price for these decisions.

[Odin Bravo One]

I can imagine how such a tragic mistake could be made though.

I still don't.

Without knowing anything about paper deliveries, I can't concieve the justification for that result.

Now, knowing about the victims being paper delivery employees..................???

There is nothing anyone can say that will change my opinion. Paperboy looking suspicious is hardly justification for that kind of expenditure of ammunition.



Unless........there are facts we are not being told.....................such as an assault rifle that the vicitms used to initiate contact with the officers................if that is the case, then they were able to positively identify the means, opportunity, and perceived intent to cause death or serious physical injury to the officers.




Martin: "So if I look suspicious on your customers property, under those 'heightened' circumstances, you have the authority to shoot me?"

Terry: "Yeah"

Martin: "Cool. How'd ya get the gig?"

[Shellback]

In this case, the women driving the truck were probably driving like normal (all over the road), and in this case without lights (which is weird), and the cops made a horrific error in judgement and didn't follow their normal procedures.

Not that it may make a world of difference but she was running her emergency flashers while driving according to one report I read, several others say lights out.

This video shows the women being treated after being shot and show the truck with hazards blinking. http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_22544264/police-suspecting-christopher-dorners-arrival-shoot-3-innocent

I don't think the police would bother turning on the hazards after dumping 40 rounds into the thing but I could be wrong.

[TCinVA]

40 rounds into the cabin can make the electronics do weird things.

[Shellback]

40 rounds into the cabin can make the electronics do weird things.

True dat. My assumption would be that they would at least be using those if they weren't running their headlights.

Or the lights could just as easily be turned off after the occupants were removed.

[TGS]

Paper delivery drivers look incredibly suspicious when you don't know what they are doing.


As a guy who worked nights almost all of my career, I will tell you that the newspaper delivery people drive and act like criminals. Most good graveyard cops know what their paper delivery people look like, and the cars they drive because they usually look suspicious.

Not that I'm a cop, but I do live on a street corner and as a night owl I see the delivery dudes load the newspaper box on the corner every night between 2AM-3AM.

They're definitely shady as all get-out. Especially when something isn't sorted properly, and they sit there for a minute getting things ready before they hop out.


There is nothing anyone can say that will change my opinion. Paperboy looking suspicious is hardly justification for that kind of expenditure of ammunition.

Yup.

I can see how they'd get into a hyper-vigilant state when seeing a truck matching the suspect's truck driving suspiciously around a protectees house. You probably know it....that super hyper-vigilance where you can damn near feel the blood pulsating through your eyeballs, your vision sharpens, and your hearing goes super-freakin sensitive (with a possible tinge of tinnitus). Been there. I can see how that coupled with nyeti's comments on training could lead to this.....but damn, if there isn't a more textbook example of negligence from what we see as outsiders right now.

[JAD]

I can see how they'd get into a hyper-vigilant state when seeing a truck not at all matching the suspect's truck driving suspiciously....

Fixed it for you.

[TGS]

Fixed it for you.

When did this change?

Everything I've heard is that the truck matched the then-current description of the suspects'.

[Shellback]

Fixed it for you.

Yup.

[Shellback]

When did this change?

Everything I've heard is that the truck matched the then-current description of the suspects'.

Nissan Titan VS Toyota Tacoma

Nissan Titan VS Honda Ridgeline

License plate verification. Also Nissan turned out to be grey not blue.

ETA - Target ID would've been helpful as well instead of popping headshots at both passenger & driver.

[RoyGBiv]

Everything I've heard is that the truck matched the then-current description of the suspects'.
Then-current... Don't know..

This from post #9 page 1


They were on the lookout for a dark grey or blue 2005 Titan, two cops end up magdumping on a light blue Tacoma with two women in it running a paper route.
Terrible.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html

[Odin Bravo One]

Guys who are scared and lack the training to make good decisions under stress make mistakes. I would also venture that these were not graveyard coppers, but guys assigned to protect a residence of someone on the list. As a guy who worked nights almost all of my career, I will tell you that the newspaper delivery people drive and act like criminals. Most good graveyard cops know what their paper delivery people look like, and the cars they drive because they usually look suspicious. I really had to learn my delivery people as not only a graveyard patrol cop, but when working in a helicopter as well. They haul ass all over the place at night, they are very erratic and simply used to being out and about when only them, cops, and criminals usually are. In this case, the women driving the truck were probably driving like normal (all over the road), and in this case without lights (which is weird), and the cops made a horrific error in judgement and didn't follow their normal procedures.

I concur 100% to analyze such an event from a student and instructor position, and I thnk you articulated well. Training is very likely a reason for poor performance and decision making. Leadership, mindset, lowering standards, etc., etc., etc.

I worked swing and graves during my short career in LE, and I know how shady the paper dude looks. Yet, I never had the urge or could I find a reason to empty my issued pistol, reload, and continue to go to work on his car. No matter how shady or suspicious he looked.

I'm still waiting for something to convince me that criminal charges should not be brought.............

[Dagga Boy]

No doubt they totally screwed up. I will wait till the investigation is complete to see the totality of the circumstances.

People were very critical of me being "out of my lane and not getting it" when I commented on a documentary in which a SF soldier who fired on a truck in Afghanistan because it was suspicious and he was afraid it may be a bombing vehicle......two little kids got hit in the back, and it was just a truck driving around who didn't turn back when it saw the American soldiers. See, I was applying cop ROE's and I needed to take into account that sometimes in Afghanistan vehicles driving the same way are VBIED's. Fact was, I did get that the guy made a mistake, probably felt very bad, and I actually totally understood that the ROE's there when you are dealing with people driving bombs at you will have people do things out of the ordinary, and mistakes will get made during a split second decision.

Sooooooo, we get to this situation and the cops OBVIOUSLY screwed the pooch. The only thing I am saying is that under "normal" situations, some truck driving in an erratic manner in the middle of the night with no lights or flashing hazards (the paper guys would sometimes do this as it was some kind of paper delivery driver "code three" excusing all vehicle code violations) is not a reason to do a mag dump. In this case, it is not normal for cops to be sitting in front a named target location waiting for a guy in a pick up truck who has already killed several people and has pretty much said he wants to go down in a gunfight with LAPD.... sort of a Vehicle borne suicide shooter. This will play on the mindset (fear) of the officers that outweighed their training (that has been cut to the bare minimum). So we have what is normally a benign thing becoming a threat just due to the extenuating circumstances. Should there be MAJOR discipline AND a large civil remedy-YES. Should we send the officers to prison....I don't know yet, because we don't have enough facts to determine criminal intent or negligence. I don't think anyone is trying to excuse this stuff.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm still waiting for something to convince me that criminal charges should not be brought.............

We don't begin to have all of the facts, exigent circumstances, the behind the scenes, briefings, intel, etc. I 100% believe that. And I know, not on this board anyway, that no one is jumping to their defense, and no matter how you slice it, or spin it.........as Nyeti said, they screwed the pooch.

Which is why I said I am waiting for something to convince me that criminal charges should not be brought. Because WITHOUT all fo the facts, and WITHOUT having been there, everything we do know points to "What the........how the...........who the........you did what............?"

[Nik the Greek]

On a lighter note, Grosse Pointe Blanke is one of my all time favorite movies.

That said, I think this was absolutely a "let's kill this mfer before he kills us scenario." This guy has basically declared a one man war on the LAPD. It was also a gross violation of the most basic firearms rules. Normally I don't question the man on the x because I've never really been there, but opening fire without IDing your target is very difficult to excuse. I'll be surprised if criminal charges are brought, and I expect the city will end up opening its coffers in a civil suit instead.

[Tamara]

In this case, it is not normal for cops to be sitting in front a named target location waiting for a guy in a pick up truck who has already killed several people and has pretty much said he wants to go down in a gunfight with LAPD.... sort of a Vehicle borne suicide shooter. This will play on the mindset (fear) of the officers that outweighed their training (that has been cut to the bare minimum). So we have what is normally a benign thing becoming a threat just due to the extenuating circumstances. Should there be MAJOR discipline AND a large civil remedy-YES. Should we send the officers to prison....I don't know yet, because we don't have enough facts to determine criminal intent or negligence. I don't think anyone is trying to excuse this stuff.

...and speaking from my vast experience as Suzy Cake-eating Taxpayer, all that stuff should be included when the next department they apply at calls for references, but I don't want the liability of Officer Cyclic and Officer Magdump performing traffic code enforcement in my neighborhood anymore. Sucks that their trainers let them down, hopefully their replacements will be better served in training with them as an example, but they gotta go over the back of the sleigh, if only pour l'encouragement des autres.

[RoyGBiv]

pour l'encouragement des autres.
http://khummer1.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/morticia-and-gomez.jpg

[azant]

...and speaking from my vast experience as Suzy Cake-eating Taxpayer, all that stuff should be included when the next department they apply at calls for references, but I don't want the liability of Officer Cyclic and Officer Magdump performing traffic code enforcement in my neighborhood anymore. Sucks that their trainers let them down, hopefully their replacements will be better served in training with them as an example, but they gotta go over the back of the sleigh, if only pour l'encouragement des autres.

This is not meant to be argumentative, but just to provide information. I believe that indeed the officers involved in shooting up the paper delivery vehicle were let down but, most likely not by their trainer. They were much more likely let down by their administration.

That would be the administration that tells those trainers that those scenarios are too hard and you can’t judge regular police officers with those standards. When will some ex cop be driving around in a vehicle that looks similar a lot of other vehicles shooting up people? (Vehicles look a lot more similar in the dark with lights flashing when you are scared. And...of...and if you just knew who messed up a lot of vehicle descriptions are!) That’s only in the movies. Oh well, now that we have this ex cop driving around shooting people, let’s send those officers who came to be a cop because of the benefits go sit out there and wait for this bad dude to show up. The first rounds fired in a gunfight are often fired by the winner, so they are going to wait for him to shoot first, right?

I wasn’t there and I don’t have any idea what happened, but I have almost shot a paper guy who dove out of his car with a gun in his hand, ran through an apartment complex, to a house next door, leaped a fence threw the paper in his left hand that I hadn’t been paying attention to, turned jumped back over the fence, and then urinated on himself when he came face to face with me. He had the pellet gun (it looked like a 6 inch barrel Model 19 in the dark) to shoot at the pitbull the house residents sometimes left in the front yard. He liked to hide and attack when the paper guy was deep in the yard.

Sam and Suzy Cake-eating Tax Payer need to go to their local government and tell them that there needs to be a 25% increase in police on the street so they can increase training. To do training, you still have to have dudes and dudettes in blue or brown out there taking all of the important calls like the potted plant that was stolen off your porch and the Christmas decorations that were rearranged into some sort of “lay” in a manger you can’t “un-see”.
I think the whole deal is reprehensible as well, but let’s lay the blame where it belongs. Most of us don’t want to pay the taxes it would take to train college age millenials to go forth onto the mean streets and deal with death and violence in a professional manner.

If you recruited different folks to do the job, then citizens would be in near hysteria that Officer Prior Service “didn’t care” about the ménage a trois that Mary, the ass, and Joseph were in and “Oh my God he even laughed!”

Do I think that the officers quite possibly need to be fired if there was no “pellet gun” or real gun or something involved. Yep. They probably shouldn’t have been cops in the first place, but I wasn’t there and I have the daily duty of training cops to deal with those kind of events. They aren’t ready. It doesn’t matter how much I care, scream, cajole, or cry, they get what they get. I work for a pretty good department. There are a lot worse out there.

Go to your local governments, tell them to add more realistic training, but don’t cry when you get the bill. They need to shoot more than you do and they should do lots of force on force stuff. Simunition is more expensive than real bullets, plus you have to have well scripted role players. It ain’t like going to gun skool for 5 days and then going home. It would have to be several days of every week of the year. So I need 5 dudes in my section to help me out, plus that 25% to cover the calls on the street, so that is 45 more officers added to my just under 160 man department, plus 5-10000 rounds per year times 205 officers, plus sims…………………..

It sucks, but you must set your expectations relative to what their training is. Most likely they’ve never had the crazy cop in a truck class.

I apologize for the bad grammar, I have role call training to get done. And...I haven't been complained on for laughing at Christmas decorations in years.

[NETim]

This is not meant to be argumentative, but just to provide information. I believe that indeed the officers involved in shooting up the paper delivery vehicle were let down but, most likely not by their trainer. They were much more likely let down by their administration.

That would be the administration that tells those trainers that those scenarios are too hard and you can’t judge regular police officers with those standards. When will some ex cop be driving around in a vehicle that looks similar a lot of other vehicles shooting up people? (Vehicles look a lot more similar in the dark with lights flashing when you are scared. And...of...and if you just knew who messed up a lot of vehicle descriptions are!) That’s only in the movies. Oh well, now that we have this ex cop driving around shooting people, let’s send those officers who came to be a cop because of the benefits go sit out there and wait for this bad dude to show up. The first rounds fired in a gunfight are often fired by the winner, so they are going to wait for him to shoot first, right?

I wasn’t there and I don’t have any idea what happened, but I have almost shot a paper guy who dove out of his car with a gun in his hand, ran through an apartment complex, to a house next door, leaped a fence threw the paper in his left hand that I hadn’t been paying attention to, turned jumped back over the fence, and then urinated on himself when he came face to face with me. He had the pellet gun (it looked like a 6 inch barrel Model 19 in the dark) to shoot at the pitbull the house residents sometimes left in the front yard. He liked to hide and attack when the paper guy was deep in the yard.

Sam and Suzy Cake-eating Tax Payer need to go to their local government and tell them that there needs to be a 25% increase in police on the street so they can increase training. To do training, you still have to have dudes and dudettes in blue or brown out there taking all of the important calls like the potted plant that was stolen off your porch and the Christmas decorations that were rearranged into some sort of “lay” in a manger you can’t “un-see”.
I think the whole deal is reprehensible as well, but let’s lay the blame where it belongs. Most of us don’t want to pay the taxes it would take to train college age millenials to go forth onto the mean streets and deal with death and violence in a professional manner.

If you recruited different folks to do the job, then citizens would be in near hysteria that Officer Prior Service “didn’t care” about the ménage a trois that Mary, the ass, and Joseph were in and “Oh my God he even laughed!”

Do I think that the officers quite possibly need to be fired if there was no “pellet gun” or real gun or something involved. Yep. They probably shouldn’t have been cops in the first place, but I wasn’t there and I have the daily duty of training cops to deal with those kind of events. They aren’t ready. It doesn’t matter how much I care, scream, cajole, or cry, they get what they get. I work for a pretty good department. There are a lot worse out there.

Go to your local governments, tell them to add more realistic training, but don’t cry when you get the bill. They need to shoot more than you do and they should do lots of force on force stuff. Simunition is more expensive than real bullets, plus you have to have well scripted role players. It ain’t like going to gun skool for 5 days and then going home. It would have to be several days of every week of the year. So I need 5 dudes in my section to help me out, plus that 25% to cover the calls on the street, so that is 45 more officers added to my just under 160 man department, plus 5-10000 rounds per year times 205 officers, plus sims…………………..

It sucks, but you must set your expectations relative to what their training is. Most likely they’ve never had the crazy cop in a truck class.

I apologize for the bad grammar, I have role call training to get done. And...I haven't been complained on for laughing at Christmas decorations in years.

Thanks for what you do.

[NickA]

What those cops did was certainly stupid, and one possible side effect I can see is that now the fear of shooting the wrong guy may lead to hesitation that could get more officers killed. It's just bad all around.
Reading the unredacted "manifesto", I can't help but wonder if the part they're not publishing was just a massive troll. It's so far out there. But, dude is clearly nuts so who knows. In fact I hope the whole thing was a troll to jack with LAPD and this guy has already offed himself somewhere, but I fear it's not.

[Shellback]

There were 2 incidents of police not positively identifying targets and shooting into vehicles of innocent citizens. In the 2nd incident they rammed the Honda truck and dumped what looks like 3 rounds into the cab through the windshield.

[LittleLebowski]

Any more data on the Honda incident?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[98z28]

There is most likely something else going on that nyeti hinted at when he said that these guys were probably not graveyard shift workers. The administration has probably put almost every sworn officer on the street looking for this guy. They probably have a lot of cops that haven't been on the street in many years suddenly back out dealing with potentially dangerous people "in the wild". When you are not face-to-face with dangerous people on a daily basis, you loose the edge. You get panicked a lot easier. I saw this every year at my first department. We worked a town with a large college population. Every Christmas and Thanksgiving we would have a rash of burglaries in the vacant houses and apartments that students tended to populate. So someone had the bright idea of paying all of the investigators overtime to babysit the empty student housing. Many of those guys and gals had not been on the street in over a decade. We had some of them in uniform and some in pain clothes working our student housing areas. In two years, we had two pursuits with marked units chasing unmarked units (they were on two different radio channels and not listening to each other - brilliant!), and two plain clothes officers nearly shot by uniformed officers. Luckily, no one got hurt.

Again, I'm not excusing the actions of these officers. They obviously made a tragic mistake. Just trying to offer more data on the "How the hell could that have happened?"

[HCM]

I'm not excusing the actions of these officers. They clearly screwed the pooch. However, as Nyeti said, “Guys who are scared and lack the training to make good decisions under stress make mistakes.”

Dorner’s rant promised to "bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" to police.

I believe these two incidents of police shooting innocent civilians at least partially demonstrates Dorner’s success towards that end.

Creating confusion amongst your enemies and causing them to make mistakes is, to my understanding, part of unconventional and asymmetrical warfare.

"Get 'em skeered and keep the skeer on 'em" as General Forrest used to say.

[RoyGBiv]

And here we all are talking about him by name, referring to his "manifesto" that's already been read by millions and looking at his smiling mug on the TV and interwebs. I'm certain that's a bigger mistake than the two incidents of officers shooting at the wrong civilians.

I watched an interesting segment on CNN this morning (I figured they'd have better info since Anderson Cooper is so loved by the shooter). They had on a psych that was recognized in whatever field this craziness falls into. After he got done talking about how we're just begging for more by making this guy famous, he named CNN and Soledad O'brien (sitting next to him.. she was mentioned by name in the manifesto as a "good guy") as contributing to the problem.

Soledad's response was to first change the subject back to the manifesto, then when the Doc brought it back to the journalism link she had the temerity to say (paraphrasing) "Well it was reporting that led to catching Ted Kazinski". <facepalm>

Wwe've raised a generation (more than one) of people like Soledad. So caught up in how they "feel" and wearing that emotion on their sleeve, that they can't (or won't) see themselves as contributing to the problem. Total absence of personal responsibility.

Sorry... /OT

[Byron]

The two women shot claim they had no warning before the barrage of gunfire came through their truck:

http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_22548595/lawyer-says-los-angeles-police-shot-women-without

The women's attorney, Glen Jonas, tells KCBS-TV (http://cbsloc.al/XqHWfF ) there were no warnings and no orders. Just gunshots.



And here we all are talking about him by name, referring to his "manifesto" that's already been read by millions and looking at his smiling mug on the TV and interwebs. I'm certain that's a bigger mistake than the two incidents of officers shooting at the wrong civilians.
I'll politely disagree... and just leave it at that.

[Dagga Boy]

Don't blame "all" the trainers. Most of the trainers are screaming the loudest as they know better than anyone how undertrained their people are, AND how undertrained they are as trainers. I have a resume that looks like a phone book of some of the best people in the training world........if you think my agency paid for that, you would be VERY wrong. On top of the outgoing money for tuition and travel, I also had to burn my comp and vacation time. This is a "executive management" issue, and the blame needs to be laid right at their feet. They are more interested in "diverse" officers than well trained officers, and they really don't like all that gun stuff.

While this was going on L.A. mayor Tony Sosa..........ooooppps, Antonio Villllllaaaarrriggossssa was at a press conference with the rest of the California socialists calling for making felons out of anyone with a hollow point bullet, legal last week rifle, anyone one caught with a magazine with more than ten rounds (even if they were previously legal)..........yep-felonies for everyone. AND they are willing to spend any amount of money (that the broke ass state doesn't have) to pay for it. THAT was more important than training their officers to deal with non administrative, honest to God real predatory violent felons that have been released from California's prisons in droves because they can't afford to house them. Want to lay a ton of blame..........right there.

Also, I will bet that they will be doing the press conference with the attorney the women got in one day in Spanish, because, they never had any warning that from the officers.

Yes, NUMEROUS mistakes were made. BUT, there is a lot of blame to go around. Sure, the easy thing would be to throw the officers into criminal court, and the executive management could simply wring their hands of any accountable and blame it on "rogue, trigger happy officers" and nothing would change. I am sure that is what everyone here wants, because that is where this will probably go.

[JRB]

I believe the whole reason that LEO's and Mil deserve the level of solemn respect for what they do comes directly from the higher standard to which they are expected to be held.

If Suzy Cake-Eating taxpayer had been receiving death threats from a nutjob ex-husband after he'd murdered her parents, and a truck that sorta looked like nutjob's had followed her for a couple of blocks, and she stopped and mag-dumped on that truck without ID'ing the truck or occupants... what would happen to her?

To imply that these officers that magdumped that Tacoma and trashed & shot at that Ridgeline don't deserve to face criminal charges also implies that they should be given leeway to magdump and pit-maneuver any vehicle that makes them jumpy (screw getting PID on a suspect or following the escalation of force policies) and thereby cost the city a shitload of money, and still wear that badge after all's said and done. I strongly disagree with that.

While the situation at hand is extreme, I don't see how expecting officers to get PID on a suspect before a magdump is something that requires elaborate and expensive force-on-force training with simunition. The whole reason their profession is so respected is because they willingly put themselves at risk to be better than the bad guys. If they're magdumping on civilian vehicles without getting so much as a look at the occupants, they *are* the bad guys by action, if not intent.

Perhaps this is all playing into that nutjob Dorner's plan, as others have opined. But if those officers walk away with a smack on the rump saying 'don't do that again', well, it only serves to vindicate that nutjob's entire premise. It also calls the integrity of the whole department into question. This is the time for the LAPD to do *EVERYTHING* right - no excuses.

I hope they catch him soon, and without further bloodshed. While I doubt he'll be taken alive, it's likely that we'd never see the details of his trial anyway.

[Dagga Boy]

Nowhere do you see me asking for a slap on the rump for the officers involved. I just don't think prison is the best solution (easiest, but probably not the best).

Just to add........we had a guy at my old agency get shot on the way home from work. When we asked the question about why he reacted the way he did to the suspect vehicle that was driving erratically.........."I thought it was a paper delivery guy"......just say'in. He got shot to shit for that mistake.........and no one gave a crap. It was a highlight of the same training issue, just the other way around.

[RoyGBiv]

I'll politely disagree... and just leave it at that.
"even bigger" was not the correct description.... Mea Culpa. :o

[JRB]

Nowhere do you see me asking for a slap on the rump for the officers involved. I just don't think prison is the best solution (easiest, but probably not the best).

Just to add........we had a guy at my old agency get shot on the way home from work. When we asked the question about why he reacted the way he did to the suspect vehicle that was driving erratically.........."I thought it was a paper delivery guy"......just say'in. He got shot to shit for that mistake.........and no one gave a crap. It was a highlight of the same training issue, just the other way around.

While I have several friends in various LE's, and one of my best friends is currently in a gang task force in my locale, I have to confess that I don't know all that I should about LE procedures, particularly in cases like this.

With that 'Suzy cake-eating Taxpayer' magdump scenario I described - how would you see that playing out in court? Similarly, what do you think is a suitable punishment for those magdumping officers? If those punishments are different, why should they be different?

I'm not sure how anyone could see an officer get 'shot to shit' and not care - as horrible as it is, I've been told that sometimes that's the only thing that gets a dept to change flawed policies.
My local city PD has been in hot water and getting grilled in the local press for the number of Officer-involved shootings over the past few years. Relevant supporting data such as the sharply increased rates of violence against officers is ignored, the process by which any OIS has oversight from two other agencies and is treated like any other shooting is ignored - and they also seem to have arbitrarily started counting the number of OIS's at some date a few years ago so the number keeps going up.
Worse still, the local Chief seems to roll over to any demands from civilian leadership on changes in use of force policies or additional oversight without any vetting of the new policies or evaluation or feedback from officers. Experienced cops are buying in to their retirements in droves to GTFO while they can. My friend has often said that the only thing that stands a chance of getting some of the BS dispelled would be the bodies of an officer or two that found themselves facing down an armed suspect with a nonlethal option, or refused to take a shot even when it's a clear cut justified use of lethal force, and died because of it.

[fuse]

The first rounds fired in a gunfight are often fired by the winner, so they are going to wait for him to shoot first, right?



Sam and Suzy Cake-eating Tax Payer need to go to their local government and tell them that there needs to be a 25% increase in police on the street so they can increase training. To do training, you still have to have dudes and dudettes in blue or brown out there taking all of the important calls like the potted plant that was stolen off your porch and the Christmas decorations that were rearranged into some sort of “lay” in a manger you can’t “un-see”.
I think the whole deal is reprehensible as well, but let’s lay the blame where it belongs. Most of us don’t want to pay the taxes it would take to train college age millenials to go forth onto the mean streets and deal with death and violence in a professional manner.

If you recruited different folks to do the job, then citizens would be in near hysteria that Officer Prior Service “didn’t care” about the ménage a trois that Mary, the ass, and Joseph were in and “Oh my God he even laughed!”



Freaking hilarious and awesome post

[Dagga Boy]

If this is simply a case of the truck driving down the street and they mag dumped it and there are no other factors as seemed to be assumed, then this is a criminal act. I just have a real suspicion that there are a bunch of other factors not being reported.

[Sparks2112]

Hey you know that nightmare scenario we talk about where someone who knows what they're doing and isn't afraid of an armed response decides to go active shooter and really shove it in sideways? Hello Mr. Dorner, wish I hadn't ever heard of you. :(

[Byron]

If this is simply a case of the truck driving down the street and they mag dumped it and there are no other factors as seemed to be assumed, then this is a criminal act. I just have a real suspicion that there are a bunch of other factors not being reported.
What do you suspect those factors are?

[Byron]

Christopher Jordan Dorner's actual Facebook page, which was removed at around 3pm PST on 2013-02-07. It's full of memes.

1 album, 5 images:
http://minus.com/mic8ufPeWPotc

[LittleLebowski]

There is most likely something else going on that nyeti hinted at when he said that these guys were probably not graveyard shift workers. The administration has probably put almost every sworn officer on the street looking for this guy. They probably have a lot of cops that haven't been on the street in many years suddenly back out dealing with potentially dangerous people "in the wild". When you are not face-to-face with dangerous people on a daily basis, you loose the edge. You get panicked a lot easier. I saw this every year at my first department. We worked a town with a large college population. Every Christmas and Thanksgiving we would have a rash of burglaries in the vacant houses and apartments that students tended to populate. So someone had the bright idea of paying all of the investigators overtime to babysit the empty student housing. Many of those guys and gals had not been on the street in over a decade. We had some of them in uniform and some in pain clothes working our student housing areas. In two years, we had two pursuits with marked units chasing unmarked units (they were on two different radio channels and not listening to each other - brilliant!), and two plain clothes officers nearly shot by uniformed officers. Luckily, no one got hurt.

Again, I'm not excusing the actions of these officers. They obviously made a tragic mistake. Just trying to offer more data on the "How the hell could that have happened?"


Seems very plausible considering that they've have at least two shoots on the wrong people.

[Al T.]

After 3 years of driving all over this city from 11P to 7A, I note that newspaper delivery folks are fairly bizarre here as well.

[TCinVA]

What do you suspect those factors are?

With no specific knowledge, I would assume bad intel being relayed by the communications network combined with suspicious behavior and some overly-jumpy cops.

[KeeFus]

After 3 years of driving all over this city from 11P to 7A, I note that newspaper delivery folks are fairly bizarre here as well.

^^^This. Ive worked nights for 18 years and ive stopped more than my share of them for their {poor} driving habits. Im not gonna pass judgement on the officers just yet only because of liberal news media outlets and their yellow journalism. Im not saying what they did was justified...just that theres likely information thats not been made available for public consumption. If they screwed the pooch im sure LAPD will roll out the bus and toss them straight under it while summarily denying any negligence on their (the departments) part.

I will agree that the admin types tend to put any progressive training on the back burner. Thats why i seek out the training on my own...and it comes outta my pocket.

I hope that the appropriate resolution is reached sooner than later with Dorner. Hes a scab that needs to be removed.

[HCM]

On another note.... I heard that at least one suppressed SBR was found in the burned vehicle at Big Bear. Apparently Dorner possesed NFA items and at least one version of his manifesto mentions obtaining them via trust.

"Trust loophole" anyone ?

[Belmont]

^^^This. Ive worked nights for 18 years and ive stopped more than my share of them for their {poor} driving habits. Im not gonna pass judgement on the officers just yet only because of liberal news media outlets and their yellow journalism. Im not saying what they did was justified...just that theres likely information thats not been made available for public consumption. If they screwed the pooch im sure LAPD will roll out the bus and toss them straight under it while summarily denying any negligence on their (the departments) part.

I will agree that the admin types tend to put any progressive training on the back burner. Thats why i seek out the training on my own...and it comes outta my pocket.

I hope that the appropriate resolution is reached sooner than later with Dorner. Hes a scab that needs to be removed.




Training or not seems like it's a 'shoot on site' type ROE or at least the feeling among these officers, and these people were unlucky enough to be mistaken for the suspect...so they were shooting to kill and blaming it on 'suspicious behavior' and driving a truck. Also disturbing houses and other cars were hit with stray rounds.


I hope they do catch the guy, though. Don't need people like him running around or people getting shot at.

[Al T.]

Residence loophole. He had a home in Nevada.

[Odin Bravo One]

Either way.............this is a shit show. Dude needs to go take a nap so no more civilians end up with mistaken identities and shot at, and the cops can stop babysitting each other, and people in the area don't have to wonder where crazy dude is going to pop up next, and how much damage will be done.

[Doug]

This dumping magazines into cars is a bit concerning. I am not trying to bash LEOs but the more I hear, the more I say WTF! I will wait for the official review to cast judgement since we don't know what went on. I am not sure what LAPD training policy is about your target and what's behind it but am so glad no one else got hurt. It could have turned into more of a tragedy. The results seem what you would see in a drive by shooting...

This SOB Dorner is wreaking havoc on all sorts of levels.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/torrance-shooting-dorner-manhunt.html

"Residents in the quiet Torrance cul-de-sac where Los Angeles police mistakenly fired on two women delivering newspapers reported hearing a barrage of gunfire and discovered bullets that pierced cars, trees, roofs and garage doors."

"On Friday, Kathy Merkosky, 53, was outside her stucco home pointing out the six bullet holes that pierced the bumper and grille of her silver Acura MDX. She knew her SUV was damaged when she spotted it on television and "saw fluid flowing into the street." Her radiator was busted, she said.

Her Ford Focus had two bullet holes as well -- one bullet shattered the windshield and another penetrated her front left tire. Police officers told her husband to file a claim with the department, she said.

Merkosky stood in her driveway as her SUV was placed on the back of a tow truck. Her insurance company advised her not to drive the car because of the damage to her radiator.

Merkosky said she was in the shower when she heard what she thought were her kids banging on the bathroom door. She came out, only to realize* that it was gunshots. She estimated hearing about 60 shots."

[Byron]

Christopher Dorner was terminated from the LAPD because they determined that he lied to them.
If the two officers who shot innocent civilians are not terminated from the LAPD, it sends the public quite a terrifying message:

We consider it worse to lie to us, than to shoot innocent people.

Whether or not that message is accurate will not matter: perception has horrible consequences.

[Jay Cunningham]

Christopher Dorner was terminated from the LAPD because they determined that he lied to them.
If the two officers who shot innocent civilians are not terminated from the LAPD, it sends the public quite a terrifying message:

We consider it worse to lie to us, than to shoot innocent people.

Whether or not that message is accurate will not matter: perception has horrible consequences.

'Merica is kind of heading in this direction in general. Checked in with your HR Department lately?

[Tamara]

Checked in with your HR Department lately?

Dude, my dream job is someplace where HR won't get all bent out of shape if I kneecap some coworker who desperately needs it. Are y'all hiring?

[Odin Bravo One]

Unfortunately, they started frowning on that at work a few years back.............but it wasn't always this way.

[Dagga Boy]

Christopher Dorner was terminated from the LAPD because they determined that he lied to them.
If the two officers who shot innocent civilians are not terminated from the LAPD, it sends the public quite a terrifying message:

We consider it worse to lie to us, than to shoot innocent people.

Whether or not that message is accurate will not matter: perception has horrible consequences.

Ask yourself this, would you rather have cops who made a terrible mistake, and so far have not made any excuses or lied about it that I know of (and I also know of the circumstances that add a bit of clarity to how this happened). Those officers are employed in a state and city that are broke and L/E training are taking major hits in the budget and priority area.

Or would you rather have a cop who will lie, and make false accusations, and when he fails at something lashes out at those around him with lies about them and blames others to make himself a victim. Anyone see a problem over the long term with this guy as a cop?

We had a Chief who had a very simple policy in regards to officers who screwed up-"You lie, You die". If you screwed up, admitted it, and took your punishment like a man and learned from your mistake, you could save your job. If you got caught in a lie, you were terminated-period.

Again, the officers involved in the shooting may lose their jobs (guarantee they will be on a lot of unpaid days off), the city will be writing a lot of big checks, but should the guys be in jail...I'm not there.

[SouthNarc]

Christopher Dorner was terminated from the LAPD because they determined that he lied to them.
If the two officers who shot innocent civilians are not terminated from the LAPD, it sends the public quite a terrifying message:

We consider it worse to lie to us, than to shoot innocent people.

Whether or not that message is accurate will not matter: perception has horrible consequences.


Concur.

[Byron]

Ask yourself this...
Please read no disrespect in what I'm about to say, but I don't have to ask myself anything; I am making a very simple observation of how this will be perceived by much of the general public.

[Dagga Boy]

The General Public has a long history of not understanding the realities of police work.........or guns, or war, or a lot of things.

[jetfire]

The General Public has a long history of not understanding the realities of police work.........or guns, or war, or a lot of things.

The General Public are, theoretically anyway the same people that police officers are supposed to be protecting. It's a shame when cops, and ex-cops forget that they were once called "peace officers".

[Dagga Boy]

I'm out.

[Byron]

Details emerge in LAPD's mistaken shooting of newspaper carriers
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story


The officers' radio crackled with an urgent warning: He could be coming your way.
...
A few minutes later, a truck slowly rolled down the quiet residential street.

As the vehicle approached the house, officers opened fire, unloading a barrage of bullets into the back of the truck.
...
Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire.

[ToddG]

Ask yourself this, would you rather have cops who made a terrible mistake, and so far have not made any excuses or lied about it that I know of (and I also know of the circumstances that add a bit of clarity to how this happened). Those officers are employed in a state and city that are broke and L/E training are taking major hits in the budget and priority area.

Or would you rather have a cop who will lie, and make false accusations, and when he fails at something lashes out at those around him with lies about them and blames others to make himself a victim. Anyone see a problem over the long term with this guy as a cop?

Would I rather have a dishonest cop, or a cop who recklessly shoots unarmed innocents... Do you really need an answer to that?

If I accidentally shot a cop because I heard someone driving a Crown Vic was out to get me, then admitted my mistake, turned myself in, and said I was really, really sorry... do you think the PD and the DA would drop the charges? If I lived to see a courtroom, the department, prosecutor, and community would all be screaming for my blood. Rightfully so.

I've talked to a number of law enforcement professionals since this story broke. Every single one of them was appalled. Every single one regarded the officers' actions as utterly reckless and totally inexcusable.

[LittleLebowski]

The Honda Ridge line incident also sounds damning.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[Tamara]

nyeti,

A place I used to work operated a clinical lab. One absolutely guaranteed crash-and-burn offense was to leave a tissue sample from a biopsy out in the processing area so it became thawed and useless. Didn't matter what the reason was, or how many years the tech was with the company, they got bounced so that when the patient was called by their doctor and told that, "Hey, sorry, no, we don't know yet if you have cancer or not because you're going to need to come in so we can excise another cubic centimeter of flesh from your body, and of course the person responsible was fired."

There's some things where "Hey, I'm sorry, I screwed up," just doesn't cut it, and pumping random strangers full of bullets is one of those things.

Now, I don't know if a prosecution should arise from this, because I don't have all the evidence, but at the very least, their policin' days need to be done.

I'm sorry for them, I really am, and it might have been the sincerest of mistakes and who knows, I might have done the same thing in their shoes in the same circumstances, but I'd like to think I'd have the decency to fall on my own damn sword afterwards and not need to be pushed.

[jlw]

I know better than to wade into this, but what fun would that be?

The LAPD has more pressing issues right now than a personnel matter...

As government employees, the 5th Amendment applies to any personnel action against the officers. They have due process rights.

Furthermore, the personnel decision of whether or not to fire them is a minimal issue compared to others at play. The use of force is a 4th Amendment issue, and with the officers' actions being under the color of law, Section 1983 comes into play both criminally and civilly. There are also state criminal charges to consider. I'm not up to speed on CA law, but in my part of the U.S., opening fire on a vehicle without legal justification to do so would be nasty business. I suspect it is on the left coast as well.

Fire them? That's the pressing question? Really? A paycheck is the least of those guys' worries right now.

[Tamara]

Fire them? That's the pressing question? Really?

No, not really, which is why I said "at the very least".

For the rest, I'll let the investigators do their investigatin'.

[BaiHu]

Very astute and sad observation that uses the Dorner case as a leverage point to explain where we currently find ourselves as a people.

http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/02/08/the-dorner-manifesto/#more-27238

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[fixer]

Ask yourself this, would you rather have cops who made a terrible mistake, and so far have not made any excuses or lied about it that I know of (and I also know of the circumstances that add a bit of clarity to how this happened). Those officers are employed in a state and city that are broke and L/E training are taking major hits in the budget and priority area.

Or would you rather have a cop who will lie, and make false accusations, and when he fails at something lashes out at those around him with lies about them and blames others to make himself a victim. Anyone see a problem over the long term with this guy as a cop?


Suzy-cake-eating taxpayer here. So the choice is a sh*t sandwhich with ranch dressing or a sh*t sandwhich with ketchup.

not much of a choice for the communities that the LAPD serves.

I agree though there is plenty of blame to go around on this one...and yes all the way up to the top brass of the LAPD. This department looks like a danger to the city instead of an asset.

[ToddG]

Another thought that coalesced in my head during a back channel discussion about this:

One of the reasons this hits people like our forum members so hard, I think, is because we can picture ourselves as that truck driver.

If I'm driving around town and suddenly come under a withering barrage of fire from some police officers, barring real time video from every angle my life is effectively over. If I do nothing to defend myself, I'll get cut down. If I make the gut wrenching decision to fire at the cops in order to save my life, I provide the evidence the cops needed to prove that the guy they were shooting at was armed and dangerous. Maybe I'll die, maybe I'll go to prison for shooting at (and possibly killing) one or more of them. Regardless, their mistake turns my life completely and permanently upside down.

And I'm not suggesting the cops would be fabricating evidence. We need to assume the officers, right or wrong, thought the truck needed to be fired upon. They didn't just shoot at it for jollies. So there they are, shooting at a guy in a truck they think is a deadly threat, when he produces a gun and starts shooting back. If you were in the cops' shoes, wouldn't you naturally assume you were right all along?

I'm more than willing to change my opinion if some legitimate, reliable facts emerge providing rational justification for what the officers did. Barring that, however, I don't see how this could be anything but blatantly criminal.

Officer safety is important. But it doesn't trump the Constitution.

[TCinVA]

People will make mistakes in high stress situations. Crucifixion doesn't improve things.

...but neither can a situation like this be Glossed over. An honest look at everything that led to the event and a good faith effort to correct all of it instead of just swinging at low hanging fruit is the prescription for fixing it.

Poorly trained people whipped into a panic and placed on the front lines make bad decisions. The pull of the trigger is ultimately their responsibility just as its ultimately mine if I overreact and cap an innocent at the gas station...

But the decision making process that leads to putting those people in that situation is due for examination too.

I think that's more or less the point Nyeti was making.

[Jay Cunningham]

Another thought that coalesced in my head during a back channel discussion about this:

One of the reasons this hits people like our forum members so hard, I think, is because we can picture ourselves as that truck driver.

If I'm driving around town and suddenly come under a withering barrage of fire from some police officers, barring real time video from every angle my life is effectively over. If I do nothing to defend myself, I'll get cut down. If I make the gut wrenching decision to fire at the cops in order to save my life, I provide the evidence the cops needed to prove that the guy they were shooting at was armed and dangerous. Maybe I'll die, maybe I'll go to prison for shooting at (and possibly killing) one or more of them. Regardless, their mistake turns my life completely and permanently upside down.

And I'm not suggesting the cops would be fabricating evidence. We need to assume the officers, right or wrong, thought the truck needed to be fired upon. They didn't just shoot at it for jollies. So there they are, shooting at a guy in a truck they think is a deadly threat, when he produces a gun and starts shooting back. If you were in the cops' shoes, wouldn't you naturally assume you were right all along?

I'm more than willing to change my opinion if some legitimate, reliable facts emerge providing rational justification for what the officers did. Barring that, however, I don't see how this could be anything but blatantly criminal.

Officer safety is important. But it doesn't trump the Constitution.

Same thing with a no-knock warrant. Like bad guys have never dressed up like cops before.

[ToddG]

Same thing with a no-knock warrant. Like bad guys have never dressed up like cops before.

But that is different, really. A no-knock warrant means that a number of steps have been taken: facts have been gathered, burdens of proof have been met, and an independent non-LE authority has reviewed everything and authorized it. It can certainly still lead to mistakes and I personally think the frequency of no-knock warrants has gone completely overboard, but a situation like that gives an officer far more justification in terms of specificity of probable cause.

What happened in the instant case was more like officers being told there was a deadly bad guy in a house with blue shutters so they opened fire at the first house they found with blue shutters.

[Tamara]

What happened in the instant case was more like officers being told there was a deadly bad guy in a house with blue shutters so they opened fire at the first house they found with blue shutters.

At the risk of making light of this, the shutters were gray, but hey, it was dark, so, you know... ;)

[TGS]

Officer safety is important. But it doesn't trump the basic right to life for everyone else.

That's more of what I was thinking. My brain isn't able to distill this down to Constitutional issues, yet.

[Jay Cunningham]

But that is different, really. A no-knock warrant means that a number of steps have been taken: facts have been gathered, burdens of proof have been met, and an independent non-LE authority has reviewed everything and authorized it. It can certainly still lead to mistakes and I personally think the frequency of no-knock warrants has gone completely overboard, but a situation like that gives an officer far more justification in terms of specificity of probable cause.

What happened in the instant case was more like officers being told there was a deadly bad guy in a house with blue shutters so they opened fire at the first house they found with blue shutters.

A no-knock doesn't look different to me or you when a bunch of armed guys kick your door in and charge into your house, rightly or mistakenly served.

[jlw]

But that is different, really. A no-knock warrant means that a number of steps have been taken: facts have been gathered, burdens of proof have been met, and an independent non-LE authority has reviewed everything and authorized it. It can certainly still lead to mistakes and I personally think the frequency of no-knock warrants has gone completely overboard, but a situation like that gives an officer far more justification in terms of specificity of probable cause.



Thank you. It is a common misconception that no-knocks are frequently used. They are not the norm. No-knock provisions are a separate attachment to a judge and have to be signed off on by the judge and supported by evidence that it is necessary.

The other gross misconception that anytime external body armor arrives on scene that "SWAT" is riding to the rescue. More often than not, it is simply investigators donning an external vest carrier.

[Palmguy]

Ask yourself this, would you rather have cops who made a terrible mistake, and so far have not made any excuses or lied about it that I know of (and I also know of the circumstances that add a bit of clarity to how this happened). Those officers are employed in a state and city that are broke and L/E training are taking major hits in the budget and priority area.

Or would you rather have a cop who will lie, and make false accusations, and when he fails at something lashes out at those around him with lies about them and blames others to make himself a victim. Anyone see a problem over the long term with this guy as a cop?

We had a Chief who had a very simple policy in regards to officers who screwed up-"You lie, You die". If you screwed up, admitted it, and took your punishment like a man and learned from your mistake, you could save your job. If you got caught in a lie, you were terminated-period.

Again, the officers involved in the shooting may lose their jobs (guarantee they will be on a lot of unpaid days off), the city will be writing a lot of big checks, but should the guys be in jail...I'm not there.

This is a false dichotomy, that said if a civilian were to engage in choosing the lesser of your two presented evils, I would choose the one that doesn't have me getting shot and possibly killed (looking at the pictures of the Tacoma, those women are lucky to be alive).

I don't think anyone will argue at this point that training needs to be addressed, but in spite of piss poor training, these officers still retain the capacity to decide to shoot or not, and the aforementioned poor training does not absolve them of their actions. In the absence of (yet to be disclosed) seriously extenuating circumstances (at the level of a clear and objectively defined threat to the officers or third parties), I fail to see how this is not criminal.

[TGS]

The other gross misconception that anytime external body armor arrives on scene that "SWAT" is riding to the rescue. More often than not, it is simply investigators donning an external vest carrier.

Sheesh......even our Animal Control Officers roll in BDU's, drop leg holsters and external carriers.

[Shellback]

It's simple, they should be held to the same standards as Joe Citizen. Actually with their training, no matter how good or bad, they should be held to a higher standard than Joe Citizen who doesn't receive even that amount of "poor training" typically.

[John Ralston]

A no-knock doesn't look different to me or you when a bunch of armed guys kick your door in and charge into your house, rightly or mistakenly served.


This may need a thread of its own, but this is the EXACT scenario I have the most concern about. I know for a FACT, that there is no reason for any no-knock warrant to be served on my residence, so if someone decides to kick in the door and yell "Police, search warrant!" they are going to meet the wrong end of a Benelli. It puts me and my family in a bad spot, and in my head I am thinking "Home Invasion".

No-knocks have been carried out on the wrong address countless times...which tells me that that SOP is also flawed. Of course it won't be the same SOP they use in Drone Strikes against US citizens...right?

[LittleLebowski]

25 minutes after the Tacoma shooting, a Honda Ridgeline was rammed and shot at in another case of shoot first, ask questions later. Fortunately, they didn't hit what they were aiming at.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[jlw]

Wow. We've run the spectrum all the way from a manhunt to drone strikes...

I'll join nyeti in taking leave of this thread now.

[John Ralston]

Wow. We've run the spectrum all the way from a manhunt to drone strikes...

I'll join nyeti in taking leave of this thread now.

The drone strike thing was really tongue in cheek - my point was really a follow up to ToddG's - as a law abiding citizen (who wholeheartedly supports the LEO community), we are kind of in a catch 22 when the good guys mistake us for the bad guys and we have to defend ourselves.

[TGS]

The drone strike thing was really tongue in cheek -

And yet a great point, and fantastic illustration of the problem. Really puts things into context.

But as for meeting the business end of a Benelli.....might wanna rethink that one. Shotgun vs ballistic shield and/or SAPI plates. Not going to end well for you. :(

[Shellback]

Brandon Webb (Former SEAL) from SOFREP discusses Dorner's capabilities.

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2013/02/09/ac-webb-dorner-skills.cnn

[littlejerry]

What happened in the instant case was more like officers being told there was a deadly bad guy in a house with blue shutters so they opened fire at the first house they found with blue shutters.

Actually it was more like they were looking for a house with silver shutters but decided to open up on the one with blue shutters because, well, its a house so why the hell not.

I have a real hard time with the fact that they were looking for a silver Nissan Titan and shot a bright blue Toyota Tacoma...

[LittleLebowski]

Actually it was more like they were looking for a house with silver shutters but decided to open up on the one with blue shutters because, well, its a house so why the hell not.

I have a real hard time with the fact that they were looking for a silver Nissan Titan and shot a bright blue Toyota Tacoma...

And a black Honda Ridgeline.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[Belmont]

People will make mistakes in high stress situations. Crucifixion doesn't improve things.

...but neither can a situation like this be Glossed over. An honest look at everything that led to the event and a good faith effort to correct all of it instead of just swinging at low hanging fruit is the prescription for fixing it.

Poorly trained people whipped into a panic and placed on the front lines make bad decisions. The pull of the trigger is ultimately their responsibility just as its ultimately mine if I overreact and cap an innocent at the gas station...

But the decision making process that leads to putting those people in that situation is due for examination too.

I think that's more or less the point Nyeti was making.


The difference is there are two completely different legal channels between LEO and you or me regarding something like this. An LEO gets paid time off for months while I would be siting in jail, with loss of income, arrest records, ect. There should be ONE legal channel, and which is why I think things like this happen. LEO simply don't have to face the same 'justice system' everyone else does.

[NETim]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,7923212,4755421.story?page=1

Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the street was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs. Residents said they wanted to know what happened.

"How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?" said Richard Goo, 62, who counted five bullet holes in the entryway to his house.

[Palmguy]

"How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?" [/I]

Easy....don't bother to even get a glance at who you are shooting at before you pull the trigger.

[Tamara]

Scooped by Byron (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6959-Fratricide-Christopher-Dorner&p=117664&viewfull=1#post117664).

[Shellback]

Article detailing the Honda Ridgeline incident (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210,0,3955268.story).

David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue.

His pickup, police later explained, matched the description of the one belonging to Christopher Jordan Dorner — the ex-cop who has evaded authorities after allegedly killing three and wounding two more. But the pickups were different makes and colors. And Perdue looks nothing like Dorner: He's several inches shorter and about a hundred pounds lighter. And Perdue is white; Dorner is black...

In Perdue's case, his attorney said he wasn't struck by bullets or glass but was injured in the car wreck, suffering a concussion and an injury to his shoulder. The LAX baggage handler hasn't been able to work since, and his car is totaled, Sheahen said.

A department spokesman said Saturday that the shooting is still under investigation. In a statement to The Times, the department said: "The circumstances of the incident known to the responding officers would have led a reasonable officer under normal circumstances — and these were far from normal circumstances — to believe that fellow officers were being shot at and that the vehicle traveling toward them posed a serious risk.

"In the split seconds available to them," the statement continued, "action was appropriate to intervene and stop the actions of the driver of that vehicle."

According to the police department, Perdue's car was headed directly for one of their patrol vehicles and appeared not to be yielding. When the vehicles collided, Perdue's air bag went off, blocking the view of the driver, and one officer fired three rounds...

Perdue's attorneys said their client was shot at without warning.

"As you know, officers of the Torrance Police Department attempted to kill Mr. Perdue" Thursday, the attorneys wrote in a letter to the agency's chief.

[Joe Mamma]

I don't think anyone will argue at this point that training needs to be addressed, but in spite of piss poor training, these officers still retain the capacity to decide to shoot or not, and the aforementioned poor training does not absolve them of their actions. In the absence of (yet to be disclosed) seriously extenuating circumstances (at the level of a clear and objectively defined threat to the officers or third parties), I fail to see how this is not criminal.

I generally agree. But, I don't dignify the police (in this incident) by saying it was a "training" issue. They need to be individually responsible for this. Once you start talking about "training", it makes it sound like the police are the victims (of poor training).

Joe Mamma

[CCT125US]

Training aside, allow me to make some points and ask a question..
You do not have a clear background.
You have not PID the suspects.
You have not observed a weapon.
You are not receiving incoming fire.
You repond by doing a mag dump into the vehicle.
Six other officers are doing the same thing.
The threat has either been stopped or was not a threat to start with.

When do you stop shooting?

Honestly asking...

[ToddG]

The difference is there are two completely different legal channels between LEO and you or me regarding something like this. An LEO gets paid time off for months while I would be siting in jail, with loss of income, arrest records, ect. There should be ONE legal channel, and which is why I think things like this happen. LEO simply don't have to face the same 'justice system' everyone else does.

I think that's overly simplistic.

Going out and about armed, intercepting and interacting with criminals are things a police officer must do as part of his job. Police officers are more likely to interact with violent criminals on a day to day basis than a private citizen. It's pretty easy to understand the difference when you think about some common advice people give about hearing a "bump in the night." Do we tell people to run through their house, clearing it by themselves? No, we say call the cops. Think of it like a boxer: he can't do his job if the other side can charge him for aggravated assault on the first punch.

When the government instructs LEOs, as part of their job, to dive head first into situations that the rest of us can (and usually should) avoid, it's only reasonable to provide them a certain degree of protection against prosecution and suit. If we didn't, who would sign up to be a cop? The potential liability would be overwhelming... especially in a society that is set to blame and sue for the slightest perceived reason.

It makes perfect sense for law enforcement officers to have a certain degree of protection while performing their duties. But that doesn't mean they have blanket immunity or can claim "I was only following orders" (which is the essential gist of "poor training") when they step grossly out of bounds endangering the members of the public they're supposed to be protecting.

The extra protections LEOs get are in recognition of the fact that they're expected to take extra risks. If instead an agency's culture is "we take no chances, officer safety trumps everything" then they shouldn't expect those special protections when acting that way.

[TGS]

Article detailing the Honda Ridgeline incident (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210,0,3955268.story).

what the............................

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I think that's overly simplistic.

Going out and about armed, intercepting and interacting with criminals are things a police officer must do as part of his job. Police officers are more likely to interact with violent criminals on a day to day basis than a private citizen. It's pretty easy to understand the difference when you think about some common advice people give about hearing a "bump in the night." Do we tell people to run through their house, clearing it by themselves? No, we say call the cops. Think of it like a boxer: he can't do his job if the other side can charge him for aggravated assault on the first punch.

When the government instructs LEOs, as part of their job, to dive head first into situations that the rest of us can (and usually should) avoid, it's only reasonable to provide them a certain degree of protection against prosecution and suit. If we didn't, who would sign up to be a cop? The potential liability would be overwhelming... especially in a society that is set to blame and sue for the slightest perceived reason.

It makes perfect sense for law enforcement officers to have a certain degree of protection while performing their duties. But that doesn't mean they have blanket immunity or can claim "I was only following orders" (which is the essential gist of "poor training") when they step grossly out of bounds endangering the members of the public they're supposed to be protecting.

The extra protections LEOs get are in recognition of the fact that they're expected to take extra risks. If instead an agency's culture is "we take no chances, officer safety trumps everything" then they shouldn't expect those special protections when acting that way.

The standards for action are the same for everyone.

The evaluation of what happened before the action commenced are different for LE v. NonLE.

Take Trevon Martin's shooting. Please, take it...

Had George Zimmerman been a commissioned LE in pursuit of a suspect, the case would likely have been a lot different, as he would have been investigating potential criminal activity.

In other words, doing what society expected him to do.

Zimmerman wasn't a cop, and therefore while FL law does not expect or require him to retreat when confronted with force - it does NOT require, or even suggest, that he pursue, investigate or otherwise confront potential suspicious activity.

If Trevon Martin was looking to evade a creepy guy who was following him, then ducked between houses, lost contact with creepy guy following him, and encountered Citizen X (who was returning to his back door after taking out the pizza boxes after a night of pizza, warcraft, skyrm, call of duty 3, skype, turbotax & 2 online chess games - don't judge.), then thought "Hey, that's the fucker who was following me!" and assaults Citizen X...

Then ends up in a ground roll with Citizen X, and receives a contact shot to the chest for his trouble, nobody would be questioning things.

Similarly, nobody would be questioning all that much if a police officer had been following Martin, Martin confronted/ambushed/assaulted the cop and get a contact shot for his trouble...

But Zimmerman had no need to force the situation as a police officer would.



LE get certain protections due to their jobs, but the protections are not as to the use of force - only as to how they are put into the circumstances in which they have to use the force.

They are still under the subjective/objective reasonability standards which are the same for everyone.

[Shellback]

what the............................

Big, big, BIG lawsuits to follow in his case and the 2 paper delivery ladies.

[Desmond82]

The standards for action are the same for everyone.

The evaluation of what happened before the action commenced are different for LE v. NonLE.

Take Trevon Martin's shooting. Please, take it...

Had George Zimmerman been a commissioned LE in pursuit of a suspect, the case would likely have been a lot different, as he would have been investigating potential criminal activity.

In other words, doing what society expected him to do.

Zimmerman wasn't a cop, and therefore while FL law does not expect or require him to retreat when confronted with force - it does NOT require, or even suggest, that he pursue, investigate or otherwise confront potential suspicious activity.

If Trevon Martin was looking to evade a creepy guy who was following him, then ducked between houses, lost contact with creepy guy following him, and encountered Citizen X (who was returning to his back door after taking out the pizza boxes after a night of pizza, warcraft, skyrm, call of duty 3, skype, turbotax & 2 online chess games - don't judge.), then thought "Hey, that's the fucker who was following me!" and assaults Citizen X...

Then ends up in a ground roll with Citizen X, and receives a contact shot to the chest for his trouble, nobody would be questioning things.

Similarly, nobody would be questioning all that much if a police officer had been following Martin, Martin confronted/ambushed/assaulted the cop and get a contact shot for his trouble...

But Zimmerman had no need to force the situation as a police officer would.



LE get certain protections due to their jobs, but the protections are not as to the use of force - only as to how they are put into the circumstances in which they have to use the force.

They are still under the subjective/objective reasonability standards which are the same for everyone.

Nicely articulated

[Jay Cunningham]

I love gallows humor.

[NickDrak]

I think that's overly simplistic.

Going out and about armed, intercepting and interacting with criminals are things a police officer must do as part of his job. Police officers are more likely to interact with violent criminals on a day to day basis than a private citizen. It's pretty easy to understand the difference when you think about some common advice people give about hearing a "bump in the night." Do we tell people to run through their house, clearing it by themselves? No, we say call the cops. Think of it like a boxer: he can't do his job if the other side can charge him for aggravated assault on the first punch.

When the government instructs LEOs, as part of their job, to dive head first into situations that the rest of us can (and usually should) avoid, it's only reasonable to provide them a certain degree of protection against prosecution and suit. If we didn't, who would sign up to be a cop? The potential liability would be overwhelming... especially in a society that is set to blame and sue for the slightest perceived reason.

It makes perfect sense for law enforcement officers to have a certain degree of protection while performing their duties. But that doesn't mean they have blanket immunity or can claim "I was only following orders" (which is the essential gist of "poor training") when they step grossly out of bounds endangering the members of the public they're supposed to be protecting.

The extra protections LEOs get are in recognition of the fact that they're expected to take extra risks. If instead an agency's culture is "we take no chances, officer safety trumps everything" then they shouldn't expect those special protections when acting that way.

Stop making sense Todd. It doesn't feed into the current trend of internet cop-bashing & armchair quarter-backing every mistake the police make.

[ToddG]

Stop making sense Todd. It doesn't feed into the current trend of internet cop-bashing & armchair quarter-backing every mistake the police make.

Unfortunately, that's an unavoidable result when something like this happens, though. You have two extremely egregious mistakes very close in time and place. It makes people hyper vigilant and uneasy. It's just like the extreme reaction so many people had to Sandy Hook.

I just keep comparing it in my mind to how our local and state police dealt with the DC Sniper case. They, too, set up road blocks and check points. And there were a few cases (barely publicized) when the officers at a particular stop did more than just wave the driver on. But no one over reacted, no citizens were shot (or otherwise harmed), etc. I cannot begin to imagine how tense and difficult those road block assignments were, but police officers, state troopers, and federal agents by the hundreds remained professional and in control for weeks. I prefer to believe that, by far, is the norm.

But I wouldn't drive a pickup truck into the L.A. area right now, either. And I think the more LEOs who try to excuse or justify what the officers did, the wider the "us vs them" gap gets and the more you'll see the private citizens complaining about the police's special status in use of force cases. (not saying you were defending anyone, Nick)

[Byron]

Some general updates:

Hunt for Christopher Dorner becomes major PR problem for L.A. police (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0210/Hunt-for-Christopher-Dorner-becomes-major-PR-problem-for-L.A.-police-video)

"I am aware of the ghosts of the LAPD's past, and one of my biggest concerns is that they will be resurrected by Dorner's allegations of racism within the department," Chief Beck said in a statement Saturday

Los Angeles police reopen case that led to fugitive ex-cop's firing (http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/09/us/lapd-attacks/index.html)

"I do this not to appease a murderer. I do it to reassure the public that their police department is transparent and fair in all the things we do," Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said in a statement.

Los Angeles puts up $1 million reward for Dorner
(http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/10/us/lapd-attacks/index.html)

The offer -- raised in conjunction with businesses, private donors and community groups -- is "the largest ever offered to our knowledge," Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said. The hope is it will shake loose a tip that leads to Dorner's eventual conviction.

Chistopher Dorner: Anonymous Targets LAPD For Cyberattack (http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/02/chistopher_dorner_anonymous_lapd_website_attack.ph p)

Dormer needs to be placed in custody without being killed. He also may have information he wants leaked; we will leak it if he desires.

— Anonymous (@YourAnonNews) February 8, 2013

[TCinVA]

Guy goes wookie and starts killing people, and you reward this by looking into his allegations.

Dunno...seems like a bad idea to me. If he had legit issues I'm thinking there were probably better ways to bring attention to them than murder. If you're arguing that LAPD is a bunch of racist thugs who like to beat people up I'm sure there would be plenty of "civil rights" groups that would give you all the attention you wanted. No murder necessary.

What does it say about our society when a dude on a cop-killing spree is viewed by certain segments of the community as the victim in this?

[BaiHu]

What does it say about our society when a dude on a cop-killing spree is viewed by certain segments of the community as the victim in this?

Bingo! We're in a parallel universe at this moment in history and I forget who posted the PJ Media piece on "Age of Falsity", but it's the perfect/sad illustration.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[jetfire]

What does it say about our society when a dude on a cop-killing spree is viewed by certain segments of the community as the victim in this?

I wonder if Dorner would receive the same sort of adulation if he wasn't targeting LAPD. Growing up in the LA area, there is something about LAPD that the media and the left (but I repeat myself) love to hate; so when something bad happens to LAPD it's reported with an almost gleeful sense.

[TCinVA]

I wonder if Dorner would receive the same sort of adulation if he wasn't targeting LAPD.

...or if his manifesto was filled with "right wing" hate instead of the left wing hate.

[NETim]

Stop making sense Todd. It doesn't feed into the current trend of internet cop-bashing & armchair quarter-backing every mistake the police make.

I'm a staunch supporter of our nation's LEO's and what they do to keep things somewhat civilized. But... BUT.... this is a two way street thing here. As we all know, there are jerks and other assorted assholes in both camps.

I know for a fact there are LEO's out there salivating in anticipation of skewering a permit holder who screws up. Does this justify bashing of LEO's? Certainly not, but people are people.

[LittleLebowski]

I know a lot of LEOs and I don't know personally know of a one that isn't a rabid supporter of the 2nd Amendment. You absolutely cannot generalize here, guys. Heck, there's one LEO in this thread that when I was in his AO, offered me a loaner rifle so I could compete at a local match. Let's try not to get too far off topic on "what ifs" here.

[jetfire]

...or if his manifesto was filled with "right wing" hate instead of the left wing hate.

Dude, come on. If his manifesto had said "Sarah Palin should be president and Obama stole the election" that would be constantly being smashed in our faces during the news cycle as proof of those crazy right-wing ex-military domestic terrorists. The only way it could be more of a media wet-dream would be if he was a white guy from Kentucky.

[Al T.]

Speculation on my part, but I think he's a corpsesicle under the snow.

[NETim]

I know a lot of LEOs and I don't know personally know of a one that isn't a rabid supporter of the 2nd Amendment. You absolutely cannot generalize here, guys. Heck, there's one LEO in this thread that when I was in his AO, offered me a loaner rifle so I could compete at a local match. Let's try not to get too far off topic on "what ifs" here.

Sadly, I do know LEO's, right smack dab in the middle of red state flyover country (Nebraska, which hasn't gone to a Democratic presidential candidate since '64), who don't appear to trust the general public with firearms. They are in the definite minority, but sadly, they do exist. I don't allow myself the luxury of stereotyping regardless.

[LittleLebowski]

Sadly, I do know LEO's, right smack dab in the middle of red state flyover country (Nebraska, which hasn't gone to a Democratic presidential candidate since '64), who don't appear to trust the general public with firearms. They are in the definite minority, but sadly, they do exist. I don't allow myself the luxury of stereotyping regardless.

Disheartening but LE, like everyone else run the gamut of beliefs and stances.

[NETim]

Disheartening but LE, like everyone else run the gamut of beliefs and stances.

Absolutely. 'Tis human nature.

[LittleLebowski]

And....back on topic :D

[Drang]

I know for a fact there are LEO's out there salivating in anticipation of skewering a permit holder who screws up.

I know a lot of LEOs and I don't know personally know of a one that isn't a rabid supporter of the 2nd Amendment. You absolutely cannot generalize here, guys.
It's a big country. Plus, you have to know that people in other countries are watching.

I remember that the most angry I ever heard my father, and the first time I heard him swear, was when those jackholes in Philly firebombed a neighborhood because someone wouldn't take out the trash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE). (Yeah, I know, that's not exactly an accurate description.)

Sadly, I do know LEO's, right smack dab in the middle of red state flyover country (Nebraska, which hasn't gone to a Democratic presidential candidate since '64), who don't appear to trust the general public with firearms. They are in the definite minority, but sadly, they do exist. I don't allow myself the luxury of stereotyping regardless.
I believe this is a relic of what Caleb has called "Gun Culture v1." There are a lot of people who are coming to grips with the idea that the part of the Second Amendment that says "...keep and bear arms" actually means what it says. They generally make dire predictions about "blood in the streets", "wild west", etc., etc., etc., and then don't even notice when these predictions don't come to pass.

Disheartening but LE, like everyone else run the gamut of beliefs and stances.
This.

OTOH, even if this was in the jurisdiction of a county sheriff who had gone national to tell Obama to "stuff it" with his plans for federal gun bans/confiscations, and the entire sheriff's department supported it, all the deputies would be a little jumpy if some nutcase were to publicize and start to carry out plans to kill them, their families, their friends and neighbors.

Again, that doesn't excuse LAPD officers opening fire on anyone without warning. Maybe it's just my military background speaking, but I would say that this is not just a training failure, which so many are focusing on, but it is also a leadership failure, and that failure of leadership goes all the way to the top.

[Drang]

Bingo! We're in a parallel universe at this moment in history and I forget who posted the PJ Media piece on "Age of Falsity", but it's the perfect/sad illustration.
The New Age of Falsity - Victor Davis Hanson - National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/339789/new-age-falsity-victor-davis-hanson)
Who else?
(Well, Bill Whittle would have been a good guess, too.)

[JRB]

Guy goes wookie and starts killing people, and you reward this by looking into his allegations.

Dunno...seems like a bad idea to me. If he had legit issues I'm thinking there were probably better ways to bring attention to them than murder. If you're arguing that LAPD is a bunch of racist thugs who like to beat people up I'm sure there would be plenty of "civil rights" groups that would give you all the attention you wanted. No murder necessary.

What does it say about our society when a dude on a cop-killing spree is viewed by certain segments of the community as the victim in this?

I think it's important that we avoid excluding data points in our perspective on this situation, and any situations like it. While there's nothing we've seen to suggest that he isn't a cold-blooded murderer, that doesn't mean that the issues he describes within the LAPD are somehow proven false, nor does it prove that he wasn't a victim of an unjust firing, among other things.
While any prior injustices done to him are light years away from justifying murder, simply because he's a murderer doesn't suddenly invalidate the possibility that such injustices and systemic problems exist within the LAPD. If prior criminal action makes anything someone said unworthy of consideration, LE's entire process of getting dirt on other suspects & 'bigger fish' goes completely out the window.

I'd like to think that he would've had multiple legal avenues by which he could have addressed and potentially solved these problems, particularly in the existing media paradigm that rabidly thirsts for stories like 'Decorated veteran & LAPD officer fired unjustly for exposing racism and brutality within LAPD'.
Why those options were not explored or used remain a mystery - and sadly I'm sure the 'official version' will describe a 4 year descent into madness, and that at no point did he ever attempt to peacefully resolve those issues following his BoR. While that very well may be true.. given the events he describes, the media hype surrounding the incident, etc, that'd also be the most desirable CYA narrative from the LAPD's perspective as well as the-powers-that-be..

I hope that justice is served fully - not only in seeing Dorner face the music for the cold-blooded murder of three people, but that the events described in his 'manifesto' are acted on and fully investigated as well.

[ToddG]

I think Tim's point -- correct me if I'm wrong -- was that giving this guy exactly what he wanted is probably sending a dangerous signal to other potential whackos. It's bad enough the such a thing guarantees you immediate fame and celebrity status. How much worse if it also meant your "manifesto" would be taken seriously and your complaints would be addressed?

If there is more to this guy's story than just "nutjob," fine. But it shouldn't become part of the story until he's in custody or dead.

[TCinVA]

I think Tim's point -- correct me if I'm wrong -- was that giving this guy exactly what he wanted is probably sending a dangerous signal to other potential whackos. It's bad enough the such a thing guarantees you immediate fame and celebrity status. How much worse if it also meant your "manifesto" would be taken seriously and your complaints would be addressed?

If there is more to this guy's story than just "nutjob," fine. But it shouldn't become part of the story until he's in custody or dead.

Bingo.

I'm sure lots of messed up stuff happens at LAPD, just as it does in every other workplace on the planet, and lots of things might benefit from a second look. To make a big public show of investigating when a dude starts killing people is the wrong move. I'm sure there are a number of good officers who had bad things happen to them due to department politics that didn't decide to act out their grudge with violence.

[TGS]

Bingo.

I'm sure lots of messed up stuff happens at LAPD, just as it does in every other workplace on the planet, and lots of things might benefit from a second look. To make a big public show of investigating when a dude starts killing people is the wrong move. I'm sure there are a number of good officers who had bad things happen to them due to department politics that didn't decide to act out their grudge with violence.

I think it makes it the perfect time. People just died because of it. I think the requirement to investigate is even more dear given the gross negligence and ineptitude with how the department handled this event. Between his alleged complaints and their handling of the event, there's obviously something f'd up with the department.

I do think that publicity is the driving factor for inspiring other unstable persons. I think the news has already done more to inspire others than the police department ever could...so, it should be investigated, but it should be done so quietly.

[BaiHu]

It's bad enough the such a thing guarantees you immediate fame and celebrity status. How much worse if it also meant your "manifesto" would be taken seriously and your complaints would be addressed?

This is the sign of the times that we've all been watching and fighting in our individual lives.

We must understand the bad and not be so harsh. We must be willing to see that we too could be that person if we were in their shoes. The trick is we, the innocent and law abiding, are forced, through media meteor showers, to feel that WE don't want to die if we were in THEIR shoes, so let's take a moment to reflect.

The rule of law is subverted by the rule of mental masturbation. That is, of course, if you're already on the side of the righteous ;)

If ya know what I mean and I know that you do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[nalesq]

I think it makes it the perfect time. People just died because of it. I think the requirement to investigate is even more dear given the gross negligence and ineptitude with how the department handled this event. Between his alleged complaints and their handling of the event, there's obviously something f'd up with the department.

I do think that publicity is the driving factor for inspiring other unstable persons. I think the news has already done more to inspire others than the police department ever could...so, it should be investigated, but it should be done so quietly.

I think beginning a Rampart scandal-like investigation of the police in any connection with Dorner would send the message that the only way to reform the police is to murder cops and their family members, and to terrorize your city. Not a good precedent.

[TGS]

I think beginning a Rampart scandal-like investigation of the police in any connection with Dorner would send the message that the only way to reform the police is to murder cops and their family members, and to terrorize your city. Not a good precedent.

So the better option is to let them carry on business as usual in being a dicked up department?

[ToddG]

So the better option is to let them carry on business as usual in being a dicked up department?

The point is that the sudden rush to "reopen the investigation" simply translates for the rest of the world into: if you think the police are covering something up, go out and murder cops and their families until something is done about, gosh darn it! It's a lot like negotiating with a terrorist.

Maybe there is some huge institutional failing at LAPD. Maybe there's not. Waiting a week or two to get Dorner off the chess board before starting the investigation likely wouldn't have much impact on the department and would have avoided empowering Dorner.

Think about this: what if LAPD concludes Dorner was right while he's still on the loose?

[TCinVA]

So the better option is to let them carry on business as usual in being a dicked up department?

Consider the source. The allegations are coming from a dude who saw a murder spree as a reasonable response to his supposed grievances. I don't doubt that some messed up things have happened in LAPD history, but if everyone will go back and look at RAMPART it turned out to be a bunch of hullabaloo about a couple of cops who shouldn't have ever been cops and probably ended up being cops longer than they should have because of a ridiculous "diversity!" mindset that has made hiring unfit people and getting rid of them more difficult.

From the sound of things this Dormer cat wasn't Mr. Popular among the people he worked with, probably because he had severe personality problems. Like the sort of personality problems that makes murdering people a reasonable response to getting fired.

I don't doubt that there are problems in LAPD just as there are in practically every public institution, but I sincerely doubt that this dude getting fired was a symptom of the problem. More than likely him being hired and taking so long to finally get rid of him are the scandals instead of the circumstances of his dismissal.

Investigate the hell out of stuff all you want...and I assure you that when something like this goes down everything this dude even came near is getting a hard look by at least somebody...but you sure as hell don't yak about it in public unless you want more of what this guy did.

I'm sure there are a lot of good people the machine of LAPD screwed over who actually do have a legit gripe that are just shy of having blood shoot out of their eyes because apparently nobody gives a damn unless you go around murdering people.

[fuse]

the media and the left (but I repeat myself)

I see what you did there

[TGS]

The point is that the sudden rush to "reopen the investigation" simply translates for the rest of the world into: if you think the police are covering something up, go out and murder cops and their families until something is done about, gosh darn it! It's a lot like negotiating with a terrorist.

Maybe there is some huge institutional failing at LAPD. Maybe there's not. Waiting a week or two to get Dorner off the chess board before starting the investigation likely wouldn't have much impact on the department and would have avoided empowering Dorner.

Think about this: what if LAPD concludes Dorner was right while he's still on the loose?

Good point on "what if." As for waiting a week or two, I can agree with that. I was thinking you guys were advocating to not investigate it at all.


Consider the source. The allegations are coming from a dude who saw a murder spree as a reasonable response to his supposed grievances.

And? Like others pointed out, just because he felt his only recourse was this does not make his claims baseless.

In addition, we're not going off of just claims. Shooting random people, and the department defending such, is evidence enough that there is something wrong with the department that needs to be addressed. The department is out of control. Letting them be is not the answer.


Investigate the hell out of stuff all you want...and I assure you that when something like this goes down everything this dude even came near is getting a hard look by at least somebody...but you sure as hell don't yak about it in public unless you want more of what this guy did.

That's what I said. Investigate, but do it silently as to not inspire others.

[TCinVA]

And? Like others pointed out, just because he felt his only recourse was this does not make his claims baseless.


That's a bit like saying "Being paranoid doesn't stop somebody from being out to get you!"

Do we really want to go down the road of looking at dudes who publish manifestos and start playing judge, jury, and executioner on innocent people as if they might have a point?

I'm reminded of the guy who flew an airplane into an IRS building. I hate the IRS as much as the next guy and I think they do some seriously shady stuff, but that doesn't entitle someone to fly a plane into a building in an effort to kill people, and it sure as shootin' doesn't make his points any more credible. Once someone is willing to slaughter innocents their ability to speak with any credibility goes out the window. I couldn't care less what the moron's cause is...if he's OK with killing people's families then he doesn't have a point. He's a thing, a thing that needs to be stopped.



In addition, we're not going off of just claims. Shooting random people, and the department defending such, is evidence enough that there is something wrong with the department that needs to be addressed.


I don't really see the two as being linked. The people who shot up innocents were in position to do that precisely because of the moron running around trying to generate a body count. They screwed up and they'll be held accountable for it, as hosing down innocent people with AR's isn't kosher...but that doesn't really lend the accusations of this murdering jackass any credibility in my view.



That's what I said. Investigate, but do it silently as to not inspire others.

...and whoever is blabbing failed to understand that point. Hence my gripe.

[TGS]

I think it's a big stretch to take, "an investigation is warranted" and turn it into "he was entitled to kill people, and it makes his points more credible."

[TCinVA]

I think it's a big stretch to take, "an investigation is warranted"

Essentially we're talking about a re-investigation. (Because he already got an investigation and it didn't go well for him) A re-investigation the guy wants, and is demanding as the price of him not killing anyone else on top of the people he's already killed.

Giving him another investigation on those terms...or even appearing to do so...is a horrible idea.

[ToddG]

I think it's a big stretch to take, "an investigation is warranted" and turn it into "he was entitled to kill people, and it makes his points more credible."

Me, too. Which is why I wish the department didn't send out a signal suggesting the latter instead of waiting for a more appropriate time to announce the former.

[Byron]

Author claims that Dorner called his colleague on Saturday:
Former LAPD detective, author asks Christopher Dorner to surrender: Speaks of Sat. call by Dorner (http://www.10news.com/news/former-lapd-detective-and-author-says-dorner-made-phone-call-saturday)

We promised not to disclose who Dorner contacted, but Rothmiller did say police were well aware.

Rothmiller says he thoroughly believes that, “perhaps over the last month or so he's been buying pre-paid disposable cell phones. He'll use them once, turn them off and discard them and virtually at that stage there's no way to track his location.”

Rothmiller thinks Dorner is simply waiting to spark a major confrontation.

And he thinks it'll happen at the new Parker Center, outside LAPD headquarters, during a weekday.

Reports are coming out that the LAPD has lifted the previously standing tactical alert:
https://twitter.com/KelseyDuckett/status/301039042752032770
(Kelsey Duckett is a reporter for the Long Beach Press Telegram)

I wonder if it's because of intel they gathered, or they're just strained on resources, or... well... I guess there are a million reasons why they might have lifted the tactical alert.

[Byron]

Christopher Dorner manhunt hits home (http://blogs.kcrw.com/whichwayla/2013/02/christopher-dorner-manhunt-hits-home)

I returned to my Glendale house Saturday evening after a night out to find a pair of plain-clothed LAPD officers hunkering down on my front patio.

Although they entered our property without our permission, the officers were apologetic and polite. We told them they could stay, offering coffee and use of our bathroom.

I suppose we are safer with armed officers outside our door, but it doesn’t really feel that way. And I’m not happy with the prospect of armed cops on our patio for an undetermined amount of time. But they are here.

[nalesq]

I think it's a big stretch to take, "an investigation is warranted" and turn it into "he was entitled to kill people, and it makes his points more credible."

Maybe not for you, but that is not such a stretch in the minds of people who are already prediposed to hate and distrust law enforcement as a matter of principle.

I lived in Los Angeles through the Rodney King riots, the acquittal of OJ Simpson, and clerked for the LA City Attorney's office during the height of the Rampart scandal. There were plenty of people back then, as now, look upon the police with deep suspicion, no matter what oversight or restrictions (such as those eventually imposed by a federal consent decree) are in place.

What is bizarre and somewhat disturbing to me now is hearing armchair criticism about the police - framed in terms of the police as a whole institution, rather than the misconduct of individual officers - now from some conservative quarters that are begininng to sound sort of like the prejudiced anti-LAPD vitriol from anarcho-progressives (or whatever you want to call them) I remember from back then. And if such is coming from some conservative quarters, I can only imagine what kind of barbershop/grass-roots support Dorner is garnering from people who already hated the police.

The pick-up truck shootings (which were done by two different agencies, I think), should and will be thoroughly investigated. But I am very uncomfortable having anything to do with anything that could could even appear to give legitimacy or moral support for the anti-police rants and actions of a murdering scumbag.

[TGS]

What is bizarre and somewhat disturbing to me now is hearing armchair criticism about the police - framed in terms of the police as a whole institution, rather than the misconduct of individual officers

The department defended their actions.

Therefore, it's not just misconduct of individual officers.

[ToddG]

The department defended their actions.
Therefore, it's not just misconduct of individual officers.

That's a giant step and one I'm not sure is justified. Most departments have learned to get behind their men at first impression. Calling that misconduct before they have had a chance to complete an investigation simply seems premature to me. But even if we want to throw the entire department under the bus, that's still far from the general anti-LE wave that seems to be springing up in some quarters over this event. And that reaction is incredibly ironic -- not to mention hypocritical -- coming from the pro-2A community.

When a few bad guys around the country do something stupid and inexcusable, like Columbine and Sandy Hook, aren't we the first to say that it was the individuals who need to be brought to justice rather than the gun owning community as a whole? Sandy Hook shouldn't be used as a sword to stab at the Second Amendment or gun owners in general.

If you agree with that, then the Dorner story shouldn't be used to stab a sword at police power or LEOs in general, either.

In both cases, when people act outside the strictures of law they -- individually -- should be held responsible. Knee-jerk reactions to limit the entire community for the bad acts of a tiny minority never make any sense.

[Haraise]

The department defended their actions.

Therefore, it's not just misconduct of individual officers.

This. It's systemic to the system they operate in.

I was trying to find this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=159PM7ZKcv0

On youtube by searching for 'LAPD shoots unarmed' and 'LAPD shoots in back'....

Let's just say it took a while to sort through all the videos of different examples.

[nalesq]

The department defended their actions.

Therefore, it's not just misconduct of individual officers.

Absent some prejudice that the police tend to do bad things and conspire to cover them up (which is essentially what anti-police people already think, which in LA led to things like the Rodney King riots and the aquittal of OJ Simpson), I don't see how a department that stands by its officers involved in a shooting until a full investigation is complete is indicative of a whole department that is, on some fundamental institutional level, engaged in misconduct. If I were a police officer involved in a shooting, I would want my department to give me the benefit of a doubt until the complete investigation (and in my experience of working with the post-Rampart LAPD, officer involved shootings are very thoroughly investigated), instead of just tossing me over the walls at the first sign of public mobs who base their indignation on incomplete information and anti-police prejudice.

I can imagine several ways in which the pickup truck shootings might have been the result of mistake instead of gross negligence. Or it could have been gross negligence. Or even willful and wanton misconduct. But until the investigation is complete, though I may speculate, I'm not going to automatically assume the worst, as those who already distrust the police have a tendency to do. Not just in this incident, but in every incident the police are involved in that, on the face, doesn't look good. Why? Because although I know full well that cops are people, and people can be fallible and corrupt, and that institutional corruption can and does exist, in the end, I still honor and trust the police. And I speak from the perspective of someone who was actively involved in helping deal with the consequences of police misconduct - on the prosecution side - during the Rampart scandal.

In any case, it should be noted that Chief Beck personally apologized to the women involved in the shooting, which indicates, at least on some level, that the LAPD, as an institution, understands that things did not go as they should have.

[TGS]

That's a giant step and one I'm not sure is justified. Most departments have learned to get behind their men at first impression.

Well, you're going to have to learn me the world on this political/legal game, because I would think they'd refrain from making any judgement calls on supporting their guys until they know for sure they were in the right.


Calling that misconduct before they have had a chance to complete an investigation simply seems premature to me.

Didn't you call it criminal earlier in the thread?


But even if we want to throw the entire department under the bus, that's still far from the general anti-LE wave that seems to be springing up in some quarters over this event.

hahaha......wait, what? I think advocating the murder of police officers is waaaayyyy beyond me thinking there's an institutional problem with a police department, and there's been lots of people advocating the murder of LEOs recently.....especially on the gunternet. The idea has been alluded to here in other threads, as well as linked to by members here as a "must read".


If you agree with that, then the Dorner story shouldn't be used to stab a sword at police power or LEOs in general, either.

I didn't know it was a stab at police power or LEOs in general to want an investigation concerning what appears to be an institutional problem of a specific agency.


In both cases, when people act outside the strictures of law they -- individually -- should be held responsible.

Yes, they should be. They should be held individually accountable if the institution isn't defending what they did, as the institution is agreeing they were operating outside their protocols. That means the individual made the decision to do what was wrong. I don't see how this applies, at all, to an agency defending the actions of their people, claiming that their people operated within the protocol of the agency. Now it's not just an issue of an individual making a decision to do something on his own outside of protocol.

If a LEO does something that the agency defends, then that means they either didn't break the law.....or they did, and the agency is defending the breaking of law by their people, meaning there is a likely issue with the institution warranting an investigation.


Knee-jerk reactions to limit the entire community for the bad acts of a tiny minority never make any sense.

I didn't realize that calling for an investigation into an institution meant to serve the public was a knee jerk reaction!

[ToddG]

Well, you're going to have to learn me the world on this political/legal game, because I would think they'd refrain from making any judgement calls on supporting their guys until they know for sure they were in the right.

As already stated, departments -- like most employers, hopefully -- stand behind their people until they get all the facts. I haven't followed this part of the story enough to know, so can you point me to some links where the departments praised the officers' actions?


Didn't you call it criminal earlier in the thread?

Yes, absolutely. The officers don't work for me and I don't work for their department. If facts come out that suggest there was some heretofore unknown justification for their actions, I'll be the first to offer a mea culpa.


I didn't know it was a stab at police power or LEOs in general to want an investigation concerning what appears to be an institutional problem of a specific agency.

This and the rest of your post was obviously directed at some interpretation of my post that I cannot even begin to fathom. I made what I thought was a pretty clear break-break-break to the general wave of anti-LE animosity, but you still seem to think I was directing my comments at you and this whole investigation sideshow. Sorry for the miscomm.

[jetfire]

This. It's systemic to the system they operate in.

I was trying to find this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=159PM7ZKcv0

On youtube by searching for 'LAPD shoots unarmed' and 'LAPD shoots in back'....

Let's just say it took a while to sort through all the videos of different examples.

I'm not sure how a video posted about an LA Sheriff's Department (not LAPD) shooting that happened over two years ago and was cleared by Sheriff's IAG as well as independent county investigation proves anything about the culture at the Los Angeles Police Department. Since they're two completely separate organizations with two completely separate service traditions.

But let's not let troubling facts get in the way of hatin' on LAPD.

[Haraise]

I'm not sure how a video posted about an LA Sheriff's Department (not LAPD) shooting that happened over two years ago and was cleared by Sheriff's IAG as well as independent county investigation proves anything about the culture at the Los Angeles Police Department. Since they're two completely separate organizations with two completely separate service traditions.

But let's not let troubling facts get in the way of hatin' on LAPD.

I said I was looking for that video as an example. The example was for something unrelated (namely how prefacing a video with... a certain mode of speech tends to discredit it). Not that it was proof for this thread. The point was the amount of results, as stated at the end.

Here's something more relevant: http://gawker.com/5982938/a-man-with-morals-the-alleged-killer-cops-growing-online-fan-base

The ending of that link:

"The LAPD should do its best to catch Christopher Dorner and, if he's guilty, convict him of whatever crimes he's committed. But after that it would probably be a good idea to ask itself why, when someone says they want to kill lots of LA cops, so many people's first response is to stand and applaud."

I've only personally, in LA, seen enough of LAPD to know I should like to avoid them. I can't say more than that for myself.

[Shellback]

Why do off duty police officers get police protection details paid for by the taxpayers?

The taxpayer in CA would probably get a piece of paper, a restraining order, and a "Good luck!" as they walked out the door of their local PD realizing that they can't even go purchase a firearm to protect them and their families.

[CCT125US]

I had the pleasure of meeting two of California's finest while on vacation. They were gun guys through and through. We talked for about an hour and a half over dinner. Honestly it was like hanging out after gun class and talking it up. The rules and regs they put up with even while being LEOs was unbelievable. What I could walk into any gun shop in Ohio and buy was like a unicorn to them. Good guys for sure in a screwed up state.

[DocGKR]

The vast majority of LAPD officers I have interfaced with have been very professional and squared away.

[NickDrak]

"Fratricide" The title of this entire thread is pretty shameful and is skewed toward LE bashing.

Fratricide is defined as:
1. The killing of one's brother or sister.
2. One who has killed one's brother or sister.

Dorner is not a "Brother" in any sense of the term to anyone of the innocent victims he murdered.

[LOKNLOD]

Why do off duty police officers get police protection details paid for by the taxpayers?


At what point is it a protection detail vs. staking out targets specifically threatened by Dorner in hopes of apprehending him? I'm not overly sympathetic to the LAPD by any means but I have to wonder if there isn't a bit of both angles in play.



When a few bad guys around the country do something stupid and inexcusable, like Columbine and Sandy Hook, aren't we the first to say that it was the individuals who need to be brought to justice rather than the gun owning community as a whole? Sandy Hook shouldn't be used as a sword to stab at the Second Amendment or gun owners in general.

If you agree with that, then the Dorner story shouldn't be used to stab a sword at police power or LEOs in general, either.


To attack LEOs in general, perhaps it's not fair, but if events in CA right now are used to question departments involved, I don't think that's hypocritical. All gun owners in general aren't organized or operating under a shared leadership with a common set of ROE and policy, either.

I'm sure there are lots of great guys working LAPD and hopefully they have a successful -- and safe -- conclusion to this crazy story.

[Shellback]

"Fratricide" The title of this entire thread is pretty shameful and is skewed toward LE bashing.

Fratricide is defined as:
1. The killing of one's brother or sister.
2. One who has killed one's brother or sister.

Dorner is not a "Brother" in any sense of the term to anyone of the innocent victims he murdered.

I didn't realize he was ex-LAPD at the time. It has nothing to do with "LE bashing".

[Shellback]

At what point is it a protection detail vs. staking out targets specifically threatened by Dorner in hopes of apprehending him? I'm not overly sympathetic to the LAPD by any means but I have to wonder if there isn't a bit of both angles in play.

Everything I've read states protection details and similar. If John Q. Public walked in with a valid complaint of a threat on his life what type of stake out would the police set up to catch the perpetrator? None, here's a piece of paper, have a nice day.

There are several documented cases of people getting threatened, obtaining a restraining order, not being able to purchase a firearm due to a waiting period and being killed during that time. It's not that I don't think it's warranted considering the circumstances but I do see it as a double standard especially when the police who are threatened have training that citizens don't, are legally able to possess and carry firearms 24/7 and the average citizen in CA is $h!+ out of luck.

Various news articles...


LAPD resources remained strained as the department deployed 50 protection details to guard officers and their families who were deemed possible targets.


Authorities have been working to protect dozens of families in the area considered targets...

[jetfire]

I said I was looking for that video as an example. The example was for something unrelated (namely how prefacing a video with... a certain mode of speech tends to discredit it). Not that it was proof for this thread. The point was the amount of results, as stated at the end.

Here's something more relevant: http://gawker.com/5982938/a-man-with-morals-the-alleged-killer-cops-growing-online-fan-base

The ending of that link:

"The LAPD should do its best to catch Christopher Dorner and, if he's guilty, convict him of whatever crimes he's committed. But after that it would probably be a good idea to ask itself why, when someone says they want to kill lots of LA cops, so many people's first response is to stand and applaud."

I've only personally, in LA, seen enough of LAPD to know I should like to avoid them. I can't say more than that for myself.

I grew up with people constantly bashing LA cops. If the cops use force to apprehend a suspect, some a-hole gets it on camera and it makes KTLA and everyone starts whining about excessive force. Or if something bad happens and the cops are 2 seconds too late, you don't hear anything on KNX 1070 for three whole days except "where was LAPD?"

There's an entire generation of people that has been told by the news media AND the entertainment media to hate LAPD; and those lowlifes that are posting the hashtag #godornergo on twitter are just another example of them. I'm not saying by any means that LAPD is a perfect agency; they're not and they make mistakes like any other major law enforcement agency made out of people. However, to suggest that corruption is endemic to the entire LAPD because of this incident is foolhardy and incredibly shortsighted.

Plus, and I feel like pointing this out again, one of two accidental shootings that occurred as a spin-off from this wasn't even LAPD, it was Torrance PD. Which is again, a different department.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

At what point is it a protection detail vs. staking out targets specifically threatened by Dorner in hopes of apprehending him? I'm not overly sympathetic to the LAPD by any means but I have to wonder if there isn't a bit of both angles in play.


And at what point is he laughing his ass off at the fact they have to spread manpower all over the place guarding his insane manifesto's targets...while he goes after command & control assets like radio repeaters, cell towers, and other assets the LAPD needs to be effective.

I wonder how well they are guarding the airfields...or the police academy.

Is the LAPD police academy a gun free zone for the most part?

[LOKNLOD]

And at what point is he laughing his ass off at the fact they have to spread manpower all over the place guarding his insane manifesto's targets...

No doubt.

[LtDave]

Essentially we're talking about a re-investigation. (Because he already got an investigation and it didn't go well for him) A re-investigation the guy wants, and is demanding as the price of him not killing anyone else on top of the people he's already killed.

Giving him another investigation on those terms...or even appearing to do so...is a horrible idea.

After losing his Board of Rights hearing, he went to Superior Court and lost there. Next stop was the Court of Appeals. He lost there as well. I call that a clue.

[fixer]

In addition, we're not going off of just claims. Shooting random people, and the department defending such, is evidence enough that there is something wrong with the department that needs to be addressed. The department is out of control. Letting them be is not the answer.
.

Agree.

I'd like to add:

In large organizations--corporate or government--when screw ups this bad happen, there is always, and invariably, deep problems that go well above individual components.

Refusing to recognize this is a simple case of our sensitivities getting in the way of finding some truth and root cause. Police departments, despite the fact that we may hold them near and dear to our hearts, are subject to accountability. This isn't "cop-bashing" it is an attempt at pointing out it is totally unacceptable for officers to mag-dump on a vehicle in the manner seen in this debacle.

We can only lean on the "individual" component for so long. Those particular officers didn't get to that point by themselves. Believing such is the height of naivete.




What is bizarre and somewhat disturbing to me now is hearing armchair criticism about the police - framed in terms of the police as a whole institution, rather than the misconduct of individual officers - now from some conservative quarters that are begininng to sound sort of like the prejudiced anti-LAPD vitriol from anarcho-progressives (or whatever you want to call them) I remember from back then. And if such is coming from some conservative quarters, I can only imagine what kind of barbershop/grass-roots support Dorner is garnering from people who already hated the police.



With all due respect, and I mean that genuinely, the LAPD's actions deserve harsh criticism in this incident.

[Byron]

General updates:

EX-COP CHRISTOPHER DORNER SHOPS FOR SCUBA GEAR 2 Days Before Murders (VIDEO) (http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/11/lapd-manhunt-christopher-dorner-scuba-gear-sports-chalet-torrance-murders/)

Dorner went to Sports Chalet in Torrance -- a beachside community in the L.A. area -- on February 1st. The video shows Dorner carrying in 2 small, yellow scuba tanks as he walks into the scuba section. Sources tell us ... Dorner got the tanks refilled with oxygen.

The video then shows Dorner leaving the scuba section with the 2 yellow tanks, along with another large, black scuba tank. Dorner then goes to the counter, and then has a friendly conversation with the cashier, at times laughing.

Dorner manhunt: Feds feared ex-cop may have fled to Mexico (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manunt-federal-document-new-details.html)

[Dorner] could have fled to Mexico, according to documents filed in federal court.

The federal document also provides new details on Dorner's alleged attack against officers in Riverside County early Thursday.

Tijuana hotel raided in search for Dorner (http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2013/feb/11/tijuana-hotel-raided-in-search-for-dorner/)

A Tijuana hotel was raided early Monday evening, February 11th, in search of United States fugitive Christopher Dorner. The Hotel Tapatio, which is located 250 meters from the U.S. border, was searched by over 20 officers. No evidence of Dorner was found on the property. What led to the search has not been disclosed yet.

LAPD "Crippled" by Dorner Search, Limited in Response to Other Crimes (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Search-for-Dorner-Creating-Drain-on-Resources-190778001.html)

Hundreds of officers are working on the Dorner case, not just responding to every credible sighting, but also protecting at least 50 families connected to the angry manifesto...

"While this continues, our ability to do other things -- to respond to 911, to do criminal investigations, to do community relations events, is crippled," [LAPD Chief] Beck said.

...commanders say officers may not respond to "smaller" crimes, and you should consider reporting them to your local police station in person.

Investigators focus on what makes Dorner tick (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dorner-hunt-20130211,0,7657304.story)

Since then, the sources said, other consultants with expertise predicting criminal behavior and fugitive pursuits have been brought in as well. The group of experts includes a software engineer from the technology company the LAPD recently hired to build a computer system for analyzing crime data. The engineer, a source said, was advising authorities on how to sift through the 800 tips that have poured in from the public since a $1-million reward was announced Sunday.

Officials have been uncertain how to interpret Dorner's actions. Why was his wallet left behind? Was the plan to steal the boat thought out or an impulsive move? Was his truck abandoned as a ruse to throw them off his trail?

[TGS]

General updates:

EX-COP CHRISTOPHER DORNER SHOPS FOR SCUBA GEAR 2 Days Before Murders (VIDEO) (http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/11/lapd-manhunt-christopher-dorner-scuba-gear-sports-chalet-torrance-murders/)

The two yellow ones looked like the little 3cuft "Spare Air" (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SX27Y.html?&&) emergency cylinders, which were originally purposed for aircrews ditching in the water. They're a complete joke and useless for any actual diving application. Not only are they too small to hold any meaningful amount of gas, but the regulators (the part you breath from) are notoriously shit quality. Why he would have two of them, I have no idea.

The larger black cylinder looks like an aluminum 63cuft cylinder, which is smaller than the world-wide standard aluminum 80cuft cylinder. It's not like he's going to be able to swim across the border with that. In case anyone is wondering it's not the sort of cylinder used with rebreathers, either. Even if he had a rebreather and was in superb physical shape, he'd have to be as close as Coronado to dive over to Mexico.

I'm not sure if his scuba shopping misadventure has much to do with his manhunt.....unless he has some gnarly plan of using them to swim to an underwater abode he plans on living in for a year while the manhunt dies down.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

The two yellow ones looked like the little 3cuft "Spare Air" (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SX27Y.html?&&) emergency cylinders, which were originally purposed for aircrews ditching in the water. They're a complete joke and useless for any actual diving application. Not only are they too small to hold any meaningful amount of gas, but the regulators (the part you breath from) are notoriously shit quality. Why he would have two of them, I have no idea.

The larger black cylinder looks like an aluminum 63cuft cylinder, which is smaller than the world-wide standard aluminum 80cuft cylinder. It's not like he's going to be able to swim across the border with that. In case anyone is wondering it's not the sort of cylinder used with rebreathers, either. Even if he had a rebreather and was in superb physical shape, he'd have to be as close as Coronado to dive over to Mexico.

I'm not sure if his scuba shopping misadventure has much to do with his manhunt.....unless he has some gnarly plan of using them to swim to an underwater abode he plans on living in for a year while the manhunt dies down.

Misdirection at its best.

[Byron]

Thank you for your expertise, TGS; I was hoping you'd have some insight regarding the tanks.

I had a feeling those little ones were next to useless for actual dive applications, but didn't want to step too far out of my lane.

Do you reckon there's any possibility that these tanks weren't meant for underwater use though? I know that the closer to the surface a person is, the longer a tank of air will last (effects of compression and all). So would those tiny tanks offer much to someone who was on the surface?

Completely spitballing here, but perhaps he wants these for some contingency that involves gas/smoke/fire?

[Shellback]

I'm not sure if his scuba shopping misadventure has much to do with his manhunt.....unless he has some gnarly plan of using them to swim to an underwater abode he plans on living in for a year while the manhunt dies down.

Or he's using it as a ruse to intentionally deceive the police and get them to speculate, chasing him down the wrong path.

Either dude's fairly bright, he had plenty of time to plan, and has planted seeds to throw the police off his tracks or he's a knucklehead who keeps getting himself caught on video. Time will tell...

[nalesq]

This isn't "cop-bashing" it is an attempt at pointing out it is totally unacceptable for officers to mag-dump on a vehicle in the manner seen in this debacle....With all due respect, and I mean that genuinely, the LAPD's actions deserve harsh criticism in this incident.

But you guys are making assumptions that come from a presumption that the police "mag-dumped" on "random people," before the completion of the investigation of the OIS. In the latest LA Times article on the LAPD shooting, at least seven officers were reportedly involved in the shooting (not two officers, as suggested earlier in this thread), and the shooting occured in two "bursts" - one by a single officer, and then another when the vehicle acclerated away towards other officers. The plaintiff's attorney representing the citizens who were shot estimate 20-30 rounds were fired. 20-30 rounds fired between 7 officers may well not be a "mag-dump," and to continue to use that prejudicial term to describe the shooting is indicative of bias without evidence. "Random" is also a prejudicial way to describe why the officers shot at the citizens in the pick-up, which presumes that LAPD officers are in the business of shooting at random people, not people who are doing things which, under certain circumstances, (like appearing to run down a police officer in a vehicle without its headlights on) could easily be misinterpreted as hostile.

The other shooting by Torrance PD (though also seemingly a terrible mistake) was definitely not a "mag-dump," and to lump that shooting in with the LAPD shooting (different agency, different event, different circumstances) is also indicative of bias.

And if someone is willing to lump LAPD in with Torrance PD (and other shootings by LASD, as someone posted earlier), then what is to stop one from lumping all police in together as one giant, monolithic entity bent on oppressing and shooting "random citizens" (and then covering up their misdeeds) because they're all out of control? Who then is to say that OJ Simpson really wasn't guilty, because the LAPD conspired to wrongfully convict him of murder, because they are that kind of jackbooted agency? Who then is to say that Dorner wasn't justified in his actions, because how else do you fight the police? This, to me, is the slipperly slope of all of this anti-police sentiment.

[DocGKR]

nalesq--well said! There have been some seriously premature and uninformed comments in this thread...

[BaiHu]

Hundreds of officers are working on the Dorner case, not just responding to every credible sighting, but also protecting at least 50 families connected to the angry manifesto...
"While this continues, our ability to do other things -- to respond to 911, to do criminal investigations, to do community relations events, is crippled," [LAPD Chief] Beck said.
...commanders say officers may not respond to "smaller" crimes, and you should consider reporting them to your local police station in person.

Great time to be talking about a national AWB, eh?

[Chemsoldier]

The two yellow ones looked like the little 3cuft "Spare Air" (http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SX27Y.html?&&) emergency cylinders, which were originally purposed for aircrews ditching in the water. They're a complete joke and useless for any actual diving application. Not only are they too small to hold any meaningful amount of gas, but the regulators (the part you breath from) are notoriously shit quality. Why he would have two of them, I have no idea.


I have a possible explanation on the emergency cylinders.

This guy liberally sprinkled military terms into his manifesto. Yet the terms are fairly common and nearly anyone at his rank would be familiar with them. He is not special or in the know. He seems to be obsessed with the trappings of the military and LE including owning weapons better suited to a SWAT team than a patrol officers or reservist. The little emergency cylinders were issued to vehicle crews in Iraq in case you have a vehicle roll-over into a canal. It is nigh impossible to rapidly un-ass an armored HMMWV that is upside down in the water. Driving along canal roads was scary because you knew if you ended up in the drink you were in severe danger of drowning. So we were issued these little cylinders. I have never known of anyone to actually use one, but he may be buying it out of "downrange chic." You know, the guys that buy a seatbelt cutter and a helmet light because everyone else is? Perhaps a wannabe thing. I dont see how he really needs one, his tubby *ss needs a weight belt to avoid floating on the surface anyway.

[Shellback]

the shooting occured in two "bursts" - one by a single officer, and then another when the vehicle acclerated away towards other officers. The plaintiff's attorney representing the citizens who were shot estimate 20-30 rounds were fired.
If someone opens fire on me while I'm in a vehicle I'm mashing the accelerator. If it's dark, we're assuming their headlights weren't on due to reports, then they probably wouldn't have seen the other officers they were purportedly driving towards. Regardless, if one single officer fired his weapon is he guilty of not identifying his target? When the others jumped on the bandwagon would that be considered a case of sympathetic fire?


And if someone is willing to lump LAPD in with Torrance PD (and other shootings by LASD, as someone posted earlier), then what is to stop one from lumping all police in together as one giant, monolithic entity bent on oppressing and shooting "random citizens" (and then covering up their misdeeds) because they're all out of control?
I'm not trying to be flippant when I say that most people in that area view the police that way. I lived in the area for 4 years and people could care less what city or department the police were from, they're all the same to them. Most of the time people don't really know what city they're in anyways as they all blend, you can't tell one from another, and they're not separated by any means.

[TGS]

Completely spitballing here, but perhaps he wants these for some contingency that involves gas/smoke/fire?

Yeah, I guess it's possible. You'd have to block your nose from breathing in the smoke, but I guess it'd be doable.


I have a possible explanation on the emergency cylinders.

This guy liberally sprinkled military terms into his manifesto. Yet the terms are fairly common and nearly anyone at his rank would be familiar with them. He is not special or in the know. He seems to be obsessed with the trappings of the military and LE including owning weapons better suited to a SWAT team than a patrol officers or reservist. The little emergency cylinders were issued to vehicle crews in Iraq in case you have a vehicle roll-over into a canal. It is nigh impossible to rapidly un-ass an armored HMMWV that is upside down in the water. Driving along canal roads was scary because you knew if you ended up in the drink you were in severe danger of drowning. So we were issued these little cylinders. I have never known of anyone to actually use one, but he may be buying it out of "downrange chic." You know, the guys that buy a seatbelt cutter and a helmet light because everyone else is? Perhaps a wannabe thing. I dont see how he really needs one, his tubby *ss needs a weight belt to avoid floating on the surface anyway.

That's a great explanation. The same "downrange chic" applies to the average diver I've seen with them. Some are generally interested in improving their safety net but haven't really thought things through. Some are just d-bags who like to jazz up their gear with chinsy cool stuff.

[ToddG]

The same "downrange chic" applies to the average diver I've seen with them. Some are generally interested in improving their safety net but haven't really thought things through. Some are just d-bags who like to jazz up their gear with chinsy cool stuff.

So glad we never have that in our community... :rolleyes:

(not directed at TGS, who is not jazzy in any way whatsoever)

[Byron]

LA City Council May Increase $1M Dorner Reward By $100K (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/12/la-city-council-may-increase-1m-dorner-reward-by-100k/)

Councilmembers Dennis Zine and Mitch Englander will introduce a reward motion to offer an additional $100,000 for “information leading to the identification, apprehension, and conviction of Christopher Dorner,” a news release said.

Dorner manhunt: Agencies consider adding $300,000 to reward (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/government-groups-to-consider-adding-300000-to-reward-for-fugitive-ex-cop.html)

The [$1-million reward] was raised through police departments, civic groups, local governments, businesses and private citizens. It is believed to be the largest reward ever offered locally.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'm supprised grey group is still running classes right now.

Their are a lot of legit dangerously skilled people that could use a cool million dollars.

[BaiHu]

I'm supprised grey group is still running classes right now.

Their are a lot of legit dangerously skilled people that could use a cool million dollars.

Lol! PF Posse!! Regulators! Mount up!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I wasn't kidding. I could imagine the LAPD being very accepting of outside help right now if it came from the right source. A bunch of highly qualified people coming to town with the express purpose of solving your problems is likely going to be well received.

[BaiHu]

I wasn't kidding either ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[NEPAKevin]

I wasn't kidding either ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Pass. Not to go off on a tangent, but apparently the "For a Few Dollars More" core concept was lost some time ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-reward-paid/story?id=13633236


U.S. Will Not Pay $25 Million Osama Bin Laden Reward, Say Officials

[ToddG]

Their are a lot of legit dangerously skilled people that could use a cool million dollars.

I don't think LAPD is going to have a problem when it comes time for contact. Their SWAT team has a solid reputation. The reward isn't for brining him in dead or alive, it's for information leading to, right? It's finding the guy that's the problem, not putting a bullet in his head once you've got a bead on him.

[LittleLebowski]

I wasn't kidding. I could imagine the LAPD being very accepting of outside help right now if it came from the right source. A bunch of highly qualified people coming to town with the express purpose of solving your problems is likely going to be well received.

Legal issues aside, there are a few Marines just south of LA :D (yes, I know it's not the military's job)

[JM Campbell]

Legal issues aside, there are a few Marines just south of LA :D (yes, I know it's not the military's job)

Your sir won the internet for the day.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

Your sir won the internet for the day.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Just tell the grunts they don't get liberty until he's found :D

[jetfire]

just tell the grunts they don't get liberty until he's found :d

Breaking news, elements of marine units stationed at camp Pendleton invade Mexico armed with personal weapons, cite "douchebag hunt" as grounds for attack.

[LittleLebowski]

Well, the Marines were banned from Tijuana for a while :D

[Chemsoldier]

A modern version of the Hue and Cry?

Of course Todd is right, people willing to pull the trigger are not in short supply, the problem is arranging the meeting.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

NSA is probably reminding people every day that they are not permitted to use SIGINT for personal gain...

However if I plan to share it with everyone in the entire department that's a different story...

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I don't think LAPD is going to have a problem when it comes time for contact. Their SWAT team has a solid reputation. The reward isn't for brining him in dead or alive, it's for information leading to, right? It's finding the guy that's the problem, not putting a bullet in his head once you've got a bead on him.


Information. Dead body.

difference being what?

[Shellback]

Might be the end of the road (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/12/authorities-responding-to-big-bear-home-on-report-of-hostage-situation-unknown-if-connected-to-dorner/).

Fish and Game officers Tuesday returned fire at a carjacking suspect who was apparently barricaded in a home in the Angelus Oaks area of Big Bear.

The incident at the home, which is located near Highway 38 and Glass Road, was reported around 12:50 p.m. The San Bernardino Police Department was sending a 12-man tactical team to the scene, but law enforcement was chasing a possible suspect near the location around 1:15 p.m.

It is unknown if the situation is connected to triple-murder suspect Christopher Dorner.

Officials have recovered a rifle and possibly a can of gas.

The alleged suspect reportedly stole a 2008 four-door, white Dodge 4X4 truck. The vehicle is registered to Camp Tahquitz.

The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department has shut down Highway 38 to create a choke point.

A helicopter was also responding to the scene.

[Byron]

One live feed (of which I'm sure there are many): http://ktla.com/live/#axzz2Khge841v

Right now there are reports of at least two officers down. Not sure whether that means injured or killed...

[Byron]

Another live feed: http://mcdn.mobi/c/kfmb/player/

AP: Law Enforcement Source Confirms Carjacking, Shooting Suspect Is Christopher Dorner (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/12/authorities-responding-to-big-bear-home-on-report-of-hostage-situation-unknown-if-connected-to-dorner/)

Two officers have reportedly been shot while pursuing a carjacking and home-invasion suspect in the Angelus Oaks area of Big Bear.

A law enforcement source confirms to the Associated Press that the assailant is triple-murder suspect Christopher Dorner.

Dorner, who has military training, is said to be heavily armed in engaging in gunfire with authorities

[Byron]

Tidbits from radio traffic / live feed (i.e. I do not have citations):

-There have been exchanges of gunfire over the course of the last 20 minutes.
-Armored vehicle has been called in
-News keeps repeating reports that officers have come under "automatic fire"
-Claims that suspect has "armor piercing weapons" (I assume this is simply referring back to his manifesto, but I could be wrong)

He's definitely not going anywhere in the white truck (which reportedly was almost empty on gas anyway)

http://i.imgur.com/9eHoVe0.png

[NETim]

OMG!! CNN is reporting that Dorner has been trained to shoot from the "weak side!"

OMG!!!!

[Savage Hands]

You can hear some of the shootout here:
NWS strong language

http://youtu.be/wAV5hy5tFEQ

[Jay Cunningham]

OMG!! CNN is reporting that Dorner has been trained to shoot from the "weak side!"

OMG!!!!

Unpossible!

[JM Campbell]

Sad to say but he'll take his own life....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Suvorov]

OMG!! CNN is reporting that Dorner has been trained to shoot from the "weak side!"

OMG!!!!

Why would any law abiding sportsman need to be able to shoot from the weak side? :confused:

[Byron]

News choppers are being asked to leave because they are broadcasting sensitive information, despite their repeated claims that they wouldn't "zoom in too far"

http://i.imgur.com/IomdfCw.png

[JM Campbell]

News choppers are being asked to leave because they are broadcasting sensitive information, despite their repeated claims that they wouldn't "zoom in too far"

http://i.imgur.com/IomdfCw.png

Stupid mf I got the scoop...my ratings beat your...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Shellback]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8990289

I wouldn't want to be driving an SUV, truck or mini-van where these guys are opening up the rear pointing loaded weapons in and the only backstop between them and the driver/passengers is a couple of car seats.

[G60]

Apparently the media is spinning this to call for more gun control, while conveniently ignoring the fact that Christopher Dorner was exempt from most California gun control laws.

[NETim]

Apparently the media is spinning this to call for more gun control, while conveniently ignoring the fact that Christopher Dorner was exempt from most California gun control laws.

Isn't Dorner the very personification of an "only one?"

[Byron]

One of the two deputies shot by Dorner has died of his wounds.

https://twitter.com/KelseyDuckett/status/301472181320290305

[Shellback]

One of the two deputies shot by Dorner has died of his wounds.

https://twitter.com/KelseyDuckett/status/301472181320290305

The assumption is that he was hit by Dorner. It very well could be a case of friendly fire.

[jetfire]

The assumption is that he was hit by Dorner. It very well could be a case of friendly fire.

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine.

[Shellback]

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine.

It very well could be. Should people only question media reports when it doesn't jive with the outcome they want to hear?

People say wait on passing judgement when it comes to cops lighting up 2 trucks and let the investigation play out. Wouldn't the same thing apply here?

[Byron]

Cabin is engulfed in flames - huge amounts of black smoke visible from far away

[Sparks2112]

Cabin is engulfed in flames - huge amounts of black smoke visible from far away

Hmmmm, drone strike?

[DocGKR]

Damn this bastard to hell...may he reach that place quickly, with no further harm to the good guys.

No "drone strike"....

[Shellback]

Cabin is engulfed in flames - huge amounts of black smoke visible from far away
Possibly diversionary. I hope he gets smoked before any other innocents are harmed.

[Shellback]

So does the person who escaped and reported Chris Dorner get the reward? Last I heard it was up to $1.3MIL.

[JAD]

Cabin is engulfed in flames - huge amounts of black smoke visible from far away

I guess the HRT made it to the party.

[Shellback]

I guess the HRT made it to the party.

"Bring in the burner... like we talked about." - As heard on police scanners...

[DocGKR]

I'm perfectly OK with the deployment of hot gas devices for dangerous barricaded suspects...

[fuse]

OMG!! CNN is reporting that Dorner has been trained to shoot from the "weak side!"

OMG!!!!

My god, think of the sheer carnage if he'd been trained to shoot with his Other Strong Side.

[Byron]

My god, think of the sheer carnage if he'd been trained to shoot with his Other Strong Side.
I can't even quantify how many internets you just won.

[Belmont]

Looks like he got Waco'd. Heard the 'bring in the burner' on the scanner feed as did a bunch of other people, then a little bit later the news came on and said the cabin was fully engulfed.

[Sparks2112]

Looks like he got Waco'd. Heard the 'bring in the burner' on the scanner feed as did a bunch of other people, then a little bit later the news came on and said the cabin was fully engulfed.

And I'm totally cool with someone actively engaged in shooting at LE getting waxed. It's a little different than putting a hellfire through someone's back window when they are unawares.

[Al T.]

One thing to remember, he could have just walked out and that would be the end of it.

[Byron]

BREAKING: A body believed to be that of fired LAPD officer Dorner recovered in burned-out cabin where police & gunman shot it out earlier.
https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/301521427260125184

[Byron]

KTLA now confirming through the LAPD that Dorner is dead

[TCinVA]

Looks like he got Waco'd. Heard the 'bring in the burner' on the scanner feed as did a bunch of other people, then a little bit later the news came on and said the cabin was fully engulfed.

I don't believe flame throwers are standard issue to California law enforcement.

Police are known to use codes in communications...words that mean things in a specific context that isn't readily apparent to those who don't know the codes.

[Belmont]

And I'm totally cool with someone actively engaged in shooting at LE getting waxed. It's a little different than putting a hellfire through someone's back window when they are unawares.



Actively setting fire should not be an option.