Ron Paul's comments on Chris Kyle.

[F-Trooper05]

Wow, lost a lot of respect for him just now.

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Ron-Pauls-controversial-tweet-about-slain-sniper-Chris-Kyle-189684761.html

[Kyle Reese]

You'll have his legion of followers say things like-

"It was taken out of context"

"It's a conspiracy to smear Ron"

"That's not what he meant to convey"

[TCinVA]

Wow, lost a lot of respect for him just now.

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Ron-Pauls-controversial-tweet-about-slain-sniper-Chris-Kyle-189684761.html

I never had much for him to begin with.

I tend to identify with a lot of libertarian ideas, but the worship for Paul from some quarters always mystified me.

It's indefensible, but sooner or later someone will show up to defend this...repulsive...display from the dude.

[RoyGBiv]

I tend to identify with a lot of libertarian ideas, but the worship for Paul from some quarters always mystified me.
Same here.
Ron reminds me of my nutty grandfather (RIP)

[JHC]

And at the link one of his accolytes remarks at what a brave man Ron Paul is to say such a thing. Ironic to the point of absurdity given the subject of Chris Kyle.

[JV_]

Yet again, he earned his nickname of Crazy Uncle Ron.

He has some good messages here and there, but IMO, he's the wrong messenger.

[TCinVA]

To quote myself on the subject of Chief Kyle's critics:



I doubt Chris would care very much what these people thought about him. He went where they dared not, risked what they would not, did what they could not, and lived like they will not. (http://gunnuts.net/2013/02/04/thank-you-chris-kyle/#more-16667)

[jetfire]

Wow, lost a lot of respect for him just now.

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Ron-Pauls-controversial-tweet-about-slain-sniper-Chris-Kyle-189684761.html

Ron Paul is basically a broken coo-coo clock that is constantly making noise and only shuts up the two times a day that it actually shows the correct time.

[MDS]

To quote myself on the subject of Chief Kyle's critics:

Well put. Who cares what Ron Paul thinks about Chris Kyle, or most other of his opinions? I don't disagree with a lot of the sentiment about him expressed here. But I am a registered Republican only so that I could vote for him in the primaries. I will take a nutty, cuckoo constitutionalist in the White House any day over any of the last few presidents. At least he wouldn't try to shove his distasteful opinions down my throat.

[Chemsoldier]

I agree with Paul more than I disagree generally. But in this case he has fallen into the ideologue's trap of thinking his ideological beliefs have bearing on everything he sees or hears. Additionally, someone who has as much experience as he does in congress and in medicine should know better than to talk about a complicated topic (PTSD and its treatment) with no background knowledge.

I am very displeased with him.

[Haraise]

Like to point out one simple thing:

Anyone ever been to a VA Hospital? Seen PTSD people there?

Treating PTSD at a firing range simply /doesn't/ make sense. It's exactly what can set off that condition. It's potentially a tragedy for the killer as well. To be set off. Flashbacks to somewhere else. Once you have a grip on reality, you've killed two people.

Not saying that's how it went down, but it is quite possible.

Live by the sword, die by the sword is completely nonsensical in this context though.

[ToddG]

Seen PTSD people there?

I've worked with and been to the range with people who suffer from PTSD. One of our guys when I worked at SIG was a former Vietnam-era helo pilot who would literally wake up in the middle of the night 30+ years later, screaming and thrashing. There were certain things that set him off.

Shooting was not one of them. He was as competent, professional, and in control on a firing range as anyone I've known. The FBI thought so, too, since they hired him to be an agent for a couple of decades.

As mentioned above, PTSD is far too complicated an issue to be pigeon-holed into "this is ok, but this is not." I would venture to guess that Chris Kyle knew more people with PTSD than you and I combined ever could, and he was well known for his efforts in helping such people. The fact that the instant case went so bad is absolutely tragic, but absolutely no one ignorant of all the pertinent facts should be passing judgment on Kyle's decisions or actions.

[TGS]

Like to point out one simple thing: Anyone ever been to a VA Hospital?

Yes. I'm a member of the VA. I've been to my VAMC about 8 times, with another 3-4 visits to my clinic.


Seen PTSD people there?

Yes. I know people with PTSD. I served with them, in the same office, sitting 5 feet away. I slept in the same space with some. I saw PTSD related events in my units as well, to include suicide and running away for days at a time.


Treating PTSD at a firing range simply /doesn't/ make sense. It's exactly what can set off that condition. It's potentially a tragedy for the killer as well. To be set off. Flashbacks to somewhere else. Once you have a grip on reality, you've killed two people.

This is a gross generalization that is not true for all cases of PTSD, which leads me to believe you don't actually know what PTSD is.

While not specifically for PTSD, but rather maimed veterans, I'm going to danger that many of the beneficiaries of M1 for Vets (http://www.m1forvets.com/) have PTSD. The program has worked well, and I'm not aware of any incidents like you claim are bound to happen.

[WobblyPossum]

I usually find myself in agreement with Mr. Paul, but I find his comments, in this case, ignorant and offensive.

[jetfire]

As mentioned above, PTSD is far too complicated an issue to be pigeon-holed into "this is ok, but this is not." I would venture to guess that Chris Kyle knew more people with PTSD than you and I combined ever could, and he was well known for his efforts in helping such people. The fact that the instant case went so bad is absolutely tragic, but absolutely no one ignorant of all the pertinent facts should be passing judgment on Kyle's decisions or actions.

This should end the thread and any more discussions of whether or not it's appropriate to use the shooting sports as therapy for PTSD sufferers.

[ezthumper]

Like to point out one simple thing:

Anyone ever been to a VA Hospital? Seen PTSD people there?

Treating PTSD at a firing range simply /doesn't/ make sense. It's exactly what can set off that condition. It's potentially a tragedy for the killer as well. To be set off. Flashbacks to somewhere else. Once you have a grip on reality, you've killed two people.



Been to a VA Hospital many times, hearing aid for the right side of my head.


My grandfather lived through the night terrors, screaming at whatever he was screaming at till the day he died. He served in Burma during WWII, 3 Bronze Stars and various other stuff he felt embarrassed about.

I had no idea what PTSD was, neither did he. He just said bad dreams. (I still don't know, they seem to label anyone that served during any conflict as a candidate if something happens. So I am fairly confused about it.)

My grandfather taught me how to shoot at age 4. He had more guns than most guns shops, he was a crack shot and enjoyed it very much, yet never pulled it on anyone in anger.

When I go to the range, I am able to cut away everything for the day or whatever is bothering me. I sense my breathing my heart beat, timing the trigger spot on the figure eight, total, complete focus on the target. After I feel great, less stressed, my attention on other matters seem to be much easier and less stressful.

Why wouldn't work on folks with PTSD?

[TGS]

Been to a VA Hospital many times, hearing aid for the right side of my head.


My grandfather lived through the night terrors, screaming at whatever he was screaming at till the day he died. He served in Burma during WWII, 3 Bronze Stars and various other stuff he felt embarrassed about.

I had no idea what PTSD was, neither did he. He just said bad dreams. (I still don't know, they seem to label anyone that served during any conflict as a candidate if something happens. So I am fairly confused about it.)

My grandfather taught me how to shoot at age 4. He had more guns than most guns shops, he was a crack shot and enjoyed it very much, yet never pulled it on anyone in anger.

When I go to the range, I am able to cut away everything for the day or whatever is bothering me. I sense my breathing my heart beat, timing the trigger spot on the figure eight, total, complete focus on the target. After I feel great, less stressed, my attention on other matters seem to be much easier and less stressful.

Why wouldn't work on folks with PTSD?

Wow, this sounds familiar.

My grandfather helped raise me, and until the day he died was also affected by Korea. He taught me to shoot at age 6, ran his own bird-dog training company, and overall loved shooting. Shooting, and hunting, is what really connected us. When macular degeneration set in and he could no longer shoot, he pretty much gave up in life and got prostate cancer shortly thereafter.

I love your description of "When I go to the range." It's the same reason I like non-action target shooting (i.e. traditional 4 position). You can become so in the moment of concentrating on the fundamentals to the point that you can feel every pulse in your body, that you are 100% in touch with your body like yoga instructors talk about. It's the same thing going on, actually. I can totally see how that may be beneficial for anyone with anxiety, not to mention giving someone an outlet to pursue and become accomplished at.

I would always walk away from the 500 yard line happy and relaxed.

Until they said, "the 7-tons aren't coming. We're hiking back."

[Odin Bravo One]

Have I ever been to a VA Hospital?

Yup.........had my wisdom teeth pulled in one.

Have I seen PTSD? At the VA?

I saw some folks that were flat-out crazier than a shit house rat.

Ya know.........I don't know if the ones who flew over the coo-coo's nest were PTSD sufferers or not.........shit house rat crazy, yes.........PTSD?..........Dunno.........they don't exactly walk around wearing a fucking sign around their necks or have it ink stamped on their foreheads.

You are free to treat your PTSD the way you and your chosen mental health professional choose.

Oh wait, wait, wait, wait............................do we even have a diagnosis on the suspect from competent mental health authority confirming PTSD was even a factor in the incident in question?

If you don't want to take a veteran who may, or may not suffer from episodes of PTSD or related symptoms to the shooting range, or you don't think that it is a good idea........I seriously doubt anyone will hold a gun to your head and force you to do so.

So don't.

It's still a free enough country that everyone still has the power of choice in this type of situation, and can choose to help struggling veterans how they best see fit.

Some choose to do nothing at all.


As for Ron Paul.........I could give a shit what he said as a candidate. I could give a shit his opinion on this topic. Or the man. Or anyone else's opinion on either.

The reality is that 99.99999% of every comment in print, video/audio media outlets, or the internet regarding Mr. Kyle, his military experiences, his book, his life, his decisions, and now his death are being made by people who have not the courage, dedication, discipline, drive, or willingness to sacrifice everything in their life for what they believe in.

I'll end my participation on the topic of Mr. Kyle with a few appropriate remarks to the entirety of the circumstances surrounding the three ring circus of fucktards Monday morning QB-ing every aspect of the man's existence on this Earth.



It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.




And from another warrior dedicated to helping veterans come home............


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/80808_zps334f399d.png

[Nephrology]

I am not a particularly religious person, but in these circumstances I am compelled to say Amen.

I wrote my undergraduate thesis on PTSD. It was eye opening. I was comfortable doing so academically, but I think that it is incredibly inappropriate and vain to believe that we have a handle on man's psyche. As a scientist, it is absolutely something I consider beyond the ken.


Have I ever been to a VA Hospital?

Yup.........had my wisdom teeth pulled in one.

Have I seen PTSD? At the VA?

I saw some folks that were flat-out crazier than a shit house rat.

Ya know.........I don't know if the ones who flew over the coo-coo's nest were PTSD sufferers or not.........shit house rat crazy, yes.........PTSD?..........Dunno.........they don't exactly walk around wearing a fucking sign around their necks or have it ink stamped on their foreheads.

You are free to treat your PTSD the way you and your chosen mental health professional choose.

Oh wait, wait, wait, wait............................do we even have a diagnosis on the suspect from competent mental health authority confirming PTSD was even a factor in the incident in question?

If you don't want to take a veteran who may, or may not suffer from episodes of PTSD or related symptoms to the shooting range, or you don't think that it is a good idea........I seriously doubt anyone will hold a gun to your head and force you to do so.

So don't.

It's still a free enough country that everyone still has the power of choice in this type of situation, and can choose to help struggling veterans how they best see fit.

Some choose to do nothing at all.


As for Ron Paul.........I could give a shit what he said as a candidate. I could give a shit his opinion on this topic. Or the man. Or anyone else's opinion on either.

The reality is that 99.99999% of every comment in print, video/audio media outlets, or the internet regarding Mr. Kyle, his military experiences, his book, his life, his decisions, and now his death are being made by people who have not the courage, dedication, discipline, drive, or willingness to sacrifice everything in their life for what they believe in.

I'll end my participation on the topic of Mr. Kyle with a few appropriate remarks to the entirety of the circumstances surrounding the three ring circus of fucktards Monday morning QB-ing every aspect of the man's existence on this Earth.



It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.




And from another warrior dedicated to helping veterans come home............


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/80808_zps334f399d.png

[TCinVA]

Like to point out one simple thing:

Anyone ever been to a VA Hospital? Seen PTSD people there?

Treating PTSD at a firing range simply /doesn't/ make sense. It's exactly what can set off that condition. It's potentially a tragedy for the killer as well. To be set off. Flashbacks to somewhere else. Once you have a grip on reality, you've killed two people.

Not saying that's how it went down, but it is quite possible.

Live by the sword, die by the sword is completely nonsensical in this context though.

All the way to the hip joint, eh?

[SeriousStudent]

I don't ever say anything about a person who has passed, that I would not say in front of their grieving spouse and orphaned children. It's just a rule I have.

Taya Kyle has two children to raise on her own now. I know that Chief Kyle's brothers will close around and protect her. I just wish they did not have to protect her from this.

There is no emoticon that shows how sad I feel for them.

[fuse]

Well put. Who cares what Ron Paul thinks about Chris Kyle, or most other of his opinions? I don't disagree with a lot of the sentiment about him expressed here. But I am a registered Republican only so that I could vote for him in the primaries. I will take a nutty, cuckoo constitutionalist in the White House any day over any of the last few presidents. At least he wouldn't try to shove his distasteful opinions down my throat.

This, although he really stepped on it this time, in a big, stupid way.

I bet we'll sadly be seeing more of this, since he probably doesn't have a staff anymore.

[fixer]

Ordinarily I am a strong supporter of Ron Paul. However with comments like those about Chris Kyle, criticism and vehement condemnation are due.

Just cause you are 1) old and 2) intensely suspicous of military organizations does not mean you have a moral high ground to pop off at the mouth about anyone of Chris Kyle's stature.

[NEPAKevin]

Anyone ever been to a VA Hospital? Seen PTSD people there?


At least once a week for several years, I went the the VA in Wilkes-barre. . Like others have said, they don't put put a sticker with a person's diagnosis on their forehead and unless you are staff treating said patient, there's this little HIPPA privacy thing that they are funny about. The vast majority of people I met were regular guys, and a few ladies, who used the VA to try to take advantage of the financial savings in medical care and preferred the company of individuals with the same life experiences. At that time, many were Korean and Vietnam era vets, maybe a few from WWII, and they were just starting to get some guys in from the Gulf and more recent wars. While they would bicker and gripe about everything from the food to the way the bingo was run, the vast majority tried to help each other as best they could and did not fall into any one stereotype. The same is true of the staff who really put up with a lot and genuinely care about their patients. Yea, there were some guys who had problems but you can see the same thing in any civilian hospital. The one thing they all had in common is that they served their country and deserve better than what they get and are usually the first who get forgotten when its time to cut funding.

[Shellback]

Speculation about the role that PTSD played in this tragic event when using the obviously unbiased media's reporting concerning veterans, guns and PTSD should be considered causal fallacy until proven otherwise. Correlation does not imply causation...

[JHC]

RP explains himself. Worse. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/339815/ron-paul-recants-sort-eliana-johnson

Maybe we can move past the RP era now and find another Libertarian flag bearer. Crimony.

I expect the mental illness aspect to go a different direction than PTSD.

[TCinVA]

...so not content with maligning Chris Kyle, he has to drag Jesus Christ into it as well.

I'm thinking Jesus would have been OK with Chris. I mean, Jesus did have that bit about what sort of love it takes to lay down one's life for a friend. From what I gather, Chris was the sort who was willing to do exactly that, put himself into situations where that almost happened on a number of occasions, and that the guys who worked with him loved him for it.

Given a choice between the dedicated warrior who risked it all on a number of occasions to bring his guys home and a public figure who can't refrain from pissing on the sacrifices made by better men, I'm thinking JC would be down with the warrior.

Dear Ron Paul,

If you can't say anything nice, then please shut the ***CENSORED*** up.

Love,

TC.

[ToddG]

Unconstitutional and unnecessary wars have endless unintended consequences.

Like giving cuckoo politicians a soapbox on the national stage.

[MDS]

cuckoo politicians

In the end, is there any other kind?

[NEPAKevin]

.
Dear Ron Paul,

If you can't say anything nice, then please shut the ***CENSORED*** up.

Love,

TC.

amen

fistbump @thumpersdad

[Drang]

Dear Ron Paul,

If you can't say anything nice, then please shut the ***CENSORED*** up.

Love,

TC.
Thanks. I was trying to write that blog post... :o