"Police street fight"

[Shellback]

Practice your ground skills. This could've gone south in a quickness.


http://youtu.be/6JRDBBfvTIw

[VolGrad]

Sickening all those people just standing around, videoing the fight, and talking trash rather than helping the officer out.

[JDM]

It gives me pause to think about how many cops are utterly unprepared for the possible extremes their job could take them to.

[Zhurdan]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?
2. How quick do you think those other folks would have jumped in and made the situation worse for the officer and potential helper?

[66L]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?

I have been in several scuffles where citizens jumped in to help. I have no idea if they said anything or not before jumping in, tunnel vision is usually pretty bad during times like that, training and experience only help but so much. But to answer your question just hearing someone by me saying "I'm here to help" would be a good indicator they are on my side. There is no real right answer that I'm aware of, and things would be substantially different during a gunfight. Not that I don't want help during a shooting, but it will take most LE to a state of hyper-preservation and it needs to be very clear that someone getting near me is a friend, not another target.

[reilly8282]

That video makes me sick to my stomach I applause public authority for their patience, I can say I would not have been that forgiving. The comments that were made should while they were on the ground should be punishable. Be safe LEO's.

[Cookie Monster]

My hand to hand stuff is well, really poor. Sometime I need to work on.

Constructively and respecting the officer, what could of been done better? Was there a different way out?

If I came upon that, I wouldn't know how to resolve it, any suggestions in thinking or ways?

I'm fit and interested but really getting too old don't to go to a dojo and get beat up. Maybe I just need to suck it up.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

[TGS]

My hand to hand stuff is well, really poor. Sometime I need to work on.

Constructively and respecting the officer, what could of been done better? Was there a different way out?

If I came upon that, I wouldn't know how to resolve it, any suggestions in thinking or ways?

I'm fit and interested but really getting too old don't to go to a dojo and get beat up. Maybe I just need to suck it up.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

I'm not terribly good at hand to hand stuff, either....so this is just my observations as a student:

The one thing I kept thinking of was "look around! someone is going to shank you!" Especially in a situation like that where he didn't have backup nearby, I think the biggest threat was the one he wasn't looking around for.

[imp1295]

I am not one to opine about LEO escalation of force. However, it makes you wonder and see the possible use and place for less than lethal means to end a confrontation.

I've never had the capacity nor requirement to use less than lethal downrange, but this is a good reason why MACP and SOCP have their places.

I'm also disgusted by the onlookers and their comments. I'm just glad to see that all the officer ended up with were some minor scrapes.

[Not HighSpeed]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?
2. How quick do you think those other folks would have jumped in and made the situation worse for the officer and potential helper?


I kept waiting for just that to happen. Good on the officer for staying focused and it appeared to me he was evaluating his situation by looking around when he could.


I've never had the capacity nor requirement to use less than lethal downrange, but this is a good reason why MACP and SOCP have their places.

The only problem I see with MACP is that for the most part you aren't taught very well how to win, just how to not lose. I think even at Level 1, you should get more training fighting back then just submissions and learning the clinch. I know more is taught in level 2, but for most soldiers Level 1 may be all they get or it may be years before they get to go back for Level 2.

[66L]

The biggest threat to this officer was definitely the crowd. It was pretty obvious that they were both physically spent early on in the fight...my heart rate was up just watching it! He had every justification to OC spray that guy or use a Taser if he had one, but that is by no means second guessing the officer. I have been there several times and it is incredibly difficult to think clearly at a time like that. Kudos to him for not giving up.

If a citizen wanted to help out in a fight like this one, the best thing to do would have been control one of the suspects arms, and then a favorite addition of mine is to control their face. By that I mean use the palm of your hand to push his face away from you and into the ground. I'm not talking about crushing his skull, or any kind of injury. Simply taking away his line of sight to what the officer (and you) are doing make a difference and there is something psychological about controlling someones head that seems to take the fight out of most people. This comes with a big warning though: if you are going for control of a hand, make sure there is nothing in it that can hurt you, and that the officer knows you are there to help (verbally and loud).

If you aren't feeling adventurous enough to jump in, watch his six for him. Even if he doesn't know you are there to help, you can keep and eye on the crowd covertly and add a measure of safety that way.

[ezthumper]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?
2. How quick do you think those other folks would have jumped in and made the situation worse for the officer and potential helper?


1. Legs, arm or drop a knee on his neck!!
2. That would be one of those "what if's..." If I assisted the officer, it might escalate or it might not, if I don't assist the office it might escalate or it may not. So choosing between the two, I would not think twice and just do it, observe the crowd, and to listen closely and obeying any and all instructions he may have. So if he says back off, I would do just that, but remain in an observation mode of the crowd until back up arrives then take myself completely out of the frame.


I am not one to opine about LEO escalation of force. However, it makes you wonder and see the possible use and place for less than lethal means to end a confrontation.

I've never had the capacity nor requirement to use less than lethal downrange, but this is a good reason why MACP and SOCP have their places.

I'm also disgusted by the onlookers and their comments. I'm just glad to see that all the officer ended up with were some minor scrapes.

While in training, one of the guys asked.."when are we to learn about hand to hand", the instructor looked at him and says "Son, if you are down to hand to hand, then you did not do your job, I expect to see the individual jacked up or or sporting a new air hole, period." I wish we were taught that stuff, because we did run into situations where a little would be nice to know. Most of us took up martial arts, knowing that it most likely would be useful at some point.

[eric0311]

The problem is that most agencies will frown upon closed fist, elbow or knee strikes because they "look" bad, or "how is this going to look on 60 minutes?"...I kid you not, that conversation comes up daily during briefings. Administrators, who haven't been on the street in decades, downright discourage cops from using proven fighting tactics due to the violence involved.

[Shellback]

The problem is that most agencies will frown upon closed fist, elbow or knee strikes because they "look" bad, or "how is this going to look on 60 minutes?"...I kid you not, that conversation comes up daily during briefings. Administrators, who haven't been on the street in decades, downright discourage cops from using proven fighting tactics due to the violence involved.

It's always that way... One person screws it up for the rest of the kids. Unfortunately there are instances where cops tee off on citizens, when it's not appropriate, and then all cops get painted in the same light in every incident. Same thing in the military whenever some meathead does something stupid everybody has to pay the consequences for the actions of others.

In this instance a crowd of obviously hostile individuals encroaching on a physical altercation with no backup in sight... I wouldn't judge him if he was raining blows down on that dude trying to get him to comply post haste. Break contact, deploy taser, prepare to repel boarders... And I definitely would've lent a helping hand to the officer.

[LittleLebowski]

I definitely would have offered assistance.

[imp1295]

The only problem I see with MACP is that for the most part you aren't taught very well how to win, just how to not lose. I think even at Level 1, you should get more training fighting back then just submissions and learning the clinch. I know more is taught in level 2, but for most soldiers Level 1 may be all they get or it may be years before they get to go back for Level 2.

I agree. Thankfully MACP has evolved. SOCP on the other hand is a whole new ball of wax. Greg Thompson created the program exactly because of the inadequacies that you mentioned. Retraint techniques, cuffing non compliant persons, working in close environments, etc. Pretty good program that along with MACP really helps prepare guys and gals. Going to the ground should be the last option if anything to maintain mobility in those situations.

The more I think about it, like many have already stated, it could have gone south in a heartbeat. I am glad it didn't. I'm glad they restrained that loud mouthed female...

[Bigguy]

I was surprised the perp never went for the officer's gun. I'm not in LE and have no experience so the next statement comes from a standpoint of complete ignorance. I'm asking for more knowledgable input.
It seems to me that any physical resistance to an officer is potentially deadly because of the possibility of the officer's weapon falling into the perp's control. More especially when that officer has no backup. Wouldn't he be better off gaining some distance then pulling his weapon? Cuff the perp at gun point, or shoot him if he failed to comply?

[EMC]

I thought the officer used his weight and size well in maintaining control.

[TGS]

Cuff the perp at gun point, or shoot him if he failed to comply?

You can't just shoot people for them not complying with orders. The suspect has to pose some sort of threat to life.

[rsa-otc]

You can't just shoot people for them not complying with orders. The suspect has to pose some sort of threat to life.

Exactly, and Once the threat ceases so does the justification to continue to fire.

[Bigguy]

You can't just shoot people for them not complying with orders. The suspect has to pose some sort of threat to life.

Exactly, and Once the threat ceases so does the justification to continue to fire.

You guys are obviously right. But it just seems like there should be more an officer can do about physical resistance. There should be some kind of SERIOUS consequence for fighting with a police officer.

[karmapolice]

There is serious consequences, its called felony obstruction. I have charged someone with felony obstruction as well as misdemeanor obstruction of EMT/Paramedics. There are lesser levels of obstruction my city even has a city ordnance but any violent physical sort of hand to hand fight is felony. If a perp goes for your gun that is a deadly force situation, as well as your asp baton, oc spray, or taser. A straight street brawl one on one does not constitute deadly force, two or more?, depends there is lots of factors. Most perps fight to get away, the ones that want to fight to fight? Well you give them no quarter and whoop that ass. This Officer would have been well with in his rights/use of force policy to deploy oc, asp baton, etc. Some areas have it ingrained in them that you fight the police, its the nature of the beast of being a cop. One must always be prepared to fight, and your most useful tool is your radio because then you can call all your friends who will drive fast with shiny lights to get there and whoop some ass. As they say you can't out run Motorola.

[41magfan]

Having been a career COP, I guess I see this a little differently. I really didn't see any time when that COP wasn't in control of that scuffle. Being in "hostile" territory, he didn't want to escalate his use of force unless it was really necessary. Been there - done that. Had it been a more secluded spot - that would have been over in seconds.

The POS he was arresting was doing a lot more "resisting" than "assaulting" and had it been necessary, that COP looked more than capable of administering another level or force had it been required.

It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.

[TGS]

It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.

+1.

[karmapolice]

Having been a career COP, I guess I see this a little differently. I really didn't see any time when that COP wasn't in control of that scuffle. Being in "hostile" territory, he didn't want to escalate his use of force unless it was really necessary. Been there - done that. Had it been a more secluded spot - that would have been over in seconds.

The POS he was arresting was doing a lot more "resisting" than "assaulting" and had it been necessary, that COP looked more than capable of administering another level or force had it been required.

It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.

I can understand what you are saying a little bit, but if he was in control that dude should have been in cuffs and in the back of his car. Not wanting to go full on into the fight because of a crowd is a good way to get hurt or killed. Yes it could escalate the zoo behind him which at that point it is really bad, but the chances are higher of them getting involved the longer he sits there and fights with the dude. If he would have taken the upper hand and put the guy in cuffs and in the back of his car the looking gallery would have probably gone else where. I am not going to monday night quarterback this Officer because I am not him and I wasn't there, but I know too many newer cops that are scared to go hands on because of what the public thinks or that they will get a use of force complaint. Everything should be swift and burtal when it is called for and when the cuffs are on you disengage completely.

[Robert Mitchum]

I did help a cop that had his hands full in 1987... I was working in the Hartford jail ( Hartford Ct.)
It was a night off in the winter time a few of us where out at a bar when I looked outside and saw a cop fighting with 2 guys.
I ran out of the bar and body slammed one of the bad guys I had many use of force encounters at work and also did some professional wrestling a few years before.
I would do the same today if I saw a cop having problems that is no bull shit.

[tanner]

Thanks for posting this. It will be played at roll call for my guys and gals today...

[98z28]

That video brings back some memories. I spent some time as a public housing officer in a relatively busy metro area. There is no telling how many crappy cell phone videos there are of our group tussling with suspects while a bunch of people stand around and trash talk.


I was surprised the perp never went for the officer's gun. I'm not in LE and have no experience so the next statement comes from a standpoint of complete ignorance. I'm asking for more knowledgable input.
It seems to me that any physical resistance to an officer is potentially deadly because of the possibility of the officer's weapon falling into the perp's control. More especially when that officer has no backup. Wouldn't he be better off gaining some distance then pulling his weapon? Cuff the perp at gun point, or shoot him if he failed to comply?

I was in more "fights" than I can remember in my short time in LE, but I can count on my fingers the number of people that actually tried to hurt or kill me. It is rare that someone fights police to "win" the fight. All most people want to do is get away. They will try and cause just enough of a distraction to make a break for it.

The guy in this video is obviously someone that just wants to get away, but we only know that in hindsight. The trouble for LEO's is that you do not know who you are facing before the fact. Is this guy just going to try and land enough blows to make me turn him loose, or is he going to try and physically crush me without a thought to what his next move is? When you tangle with the guy that really wants to hurt you, you'll know it. He may let you know at the onset of festivities, or his motivation may change in mid-fight. By the time you figure it out you are already behind and there is a decent chance you will get hurt. It's far better to go ahead and assume that everyone offering resistance wants to hurt you. When it is time to get physical, start and end it quickly and violently. One sided encounters are much preferred to "fair fights" - whatever the hell those are.


Having been a career COP, I guess I see this a little differently. I really didn't see any time when that COP wasn't in control of that scuffle. Being in "hostile" territory, he didn't want to escalate his use of force unless it was really necessary. Been there - done that. Had it been a more secluded spot - that would have been over in seconds.

The POS he was arresting was doing a lot more "resisting" than "assaulting" and had it been necessary, that COP looked more than capable of administering another level or force had it been required.

It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.

I agree. There are two broad strategies to choose from here, but the goal is the same: get control of the suspect without inciting the crowd.

The suspect seems to just be resisting and there is large crowd there that could turn in a heartbeat. If the officer chose to play a little nicer than he could have for fear of inciting the crowd, so be it. I can understand that choice. The risk is that the suspect may decide to up the ante after the fight goes on for a while, or the crowd may just turn on him anyway. I've seen both happen.

The other option is to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. This might look ugly (hard strikes, batons, Taser, etc.), but it (hopefully) ends the encounter and gets the suspect in the back of the car before he has much of a chance to voice his opinion on the matter. Of course the risk here is that you anger the crowd into action and now have multiple people to deal with instead of one. I would argue that you face this risk with either strategy, so just end the fight ASAP.

I've experienced consequences with both strategies. The first time I ran into someone that really wanted to hurt me, I thought going into the fight that he would just resist. I quickly realized I had bitten off more than I could chew. I didn't recognize the threat for what it was until I was already at a significant disadvantage. Luckily help was close and it quickly turned into a pile of asses and elbows with all but one of the participants dressed in blue polyester. Had I been by myself, it would have not gone well for me. After that, I decided never to half-ass a fight again. To hell with how bad it might look.

Dominating the fight early can have consequences too. I sparked a mini riot in one of our housing projects when I started in on a resisting suspect with an ASP baton. This joker already had two officers hanging off of him when I showed up, and it didn't look like anyone was going to get him in cuffs anytime soon. So I figured a few pops in the common peroneal from an ASP might change his demeanor (Tasers were not an option at the time). We got control of him in a hurry, but the crowd didn't like the look of the baton. This was the middle of summer in a large housing project, so everyone was outside watching the festivities. By the time we got the suspect in the car, we had over 100 people cussing, throwing crap, and trying to engage us in fights for their "cuz". It took almost everyone on shift to squash that shit.

Encountering resisting suspects is fluid, unpredictable, and messy. You make a choice and you roll with it. Thankfully for the cop in this video (and for everyone that has spent time on the job and is still in one piece), luck was on his side.

To those that would offer assistance in this or similar circumstances: I'll echo what others have said. If it looks like I'm in serious trouble, jump on in. I'll figure out real quick who's side your on. As much as I hate to say this though, be very careful about jumping in the mix. LEO's have some protection from liability if they are doing their job. You do not (as far as I know). If you drop a knee on the goober in this video and cause serious injury, I can guarantee that some ambulance chasing lawyer will be salivating at the chance to take you to court. That can have some real consequences. I would never discourage someone from helping a LEO that is in trouble, but go in knowing the risks beyond the immediate physical danger. You have to survive the fight, but you also have to survive the aftermath.

[Shellback]

To those that would offer assistance in this or similar circumstances: I'll echo what others have said. If it looks like I'm in serious trouble, jump on in. I'll figure out real quick who's side your on. As much as I hate to say this though, be very careful about jumping in the mix. LEO's have some protection from liability if they are doing their job. You do not (as far as I know). If you drop a knee on the goober in this video and cause serious injury, I can guarantee that some ambulance chasing lawyer will be salivating at the chance to take you to court. That can have some real consequences. I would never discourage someone from helping a LEO that is in trouble, but go in knowing the risks beyond the immediate physical danger. You have to survive the fight, but you also have to survive the aftermath.

Please feel free to correct me as I could be off base... I thought that citizens were entitled to a certain amount of leeway when helping an officer in distress. Not immunity or anything of that nature but that there were laws to help protect the individual. If there isn't one now there should be.

[karmapolice]

Under GA law they are protected, when I get home I will have to look up the code section.

[Cycrops]

Funny, I read through this thread yesterday and this morning youtube recommended I watch this relevant video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJRx4t3pOY) of citizens helping to subdue a guy an officer was struggling with.

[RoyGBiv]

Funny, I read through this thread yesterday and this morning youtube recommended I watch this relevant video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJRx4t3pOY) of citizens helping to subdue a guy an officer was struggling with.

Kudos to the helpful citizens.

That officer needs to re-take "Handcuffing 101".
The suspect appears to have been submitting until he encountered the officers lack of skill with the bracelets.

[jumpthestack]

Funny, I read through this thread yesterday and this morning youtube recommended I watch this relevant video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOJRx4t3pOY) of citizens helping to subdue a guy an officer was struggling with.

The suspect in this one pretty clearly has solid wrestling experience. It very likely could have gone bad if the citizens didn't help.

[JodyH]

The suspect in this one pretty clearly has solid wrestling experience. It very likely could have gone bad if the citizens didn't help.

Looked more like backyard bum fight experience than "solid wrestling experience" to me.
His takedown was all muscle, very little technique and he didnt appear to have any real ground game.
Unfortunately the cop was even worse. As soon as he walked in he looked soft.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Honest questions... if you were to want to help an officer...

1. What do you say to let him know you are trying to help?
2. How quick do you think those other folks would have jumped in and made the situation worse for the officer and potential helper?

Get on the phone with 911, tell them what, where, who the bad guy is & what he's wearing, who you are and what you are wearing, and keep up a running commentary for the dispatcher as to the action.

If it looks like the cop needs help, tell the dispatcher the cop needs help, and ask the cop if he wants help.

You can't control what dispatch tells the people coming to the scene and how they respond to the action, but you can hopefully notch things your way by getting info to dispatch clearly, early and effectively.

Even if you are arrested afterwards, the 911 call & the cop resolves it rather quickly.

[SJC3081]

I intervened in a similar situation last year. I was doing electrical work in front of the Apollo Theater at about 0300 hrs when I saw a officer in a foot pursuit catch a suspect and was wresting with the suspect on the sidewalk. I ran over grabbed the perps arm and stomped his head into the sidewalk with my boot. My stomp took the fight out of the perp and the officer was able to cuff him. Other officers soon arrived and I went on my merry way. The officers didn't even ask my name which I was very happy.

[tanner]

One of my early career foot pursuits through a downtown area was ended by a picture perfect hockey shoulder check into the glass. No more running after that. It was a beautiful sight, and I never got that dude's name either... ;)

[Ptrlcop]

As soon as he walked in he looked soft.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

My first thought....scrotes live their whole life sizing people up.

As to helping out a cop in a fight....Just yell "stop resisting" really loud and he will assume you are a cop too

[Chuck Haggard]

Having been a career COP, I guess I see this a little differently. I really didn't see any time when that COP wasn't in control of that scuffle. Being in "hostile" territory, he didn't want to escalate his use of force unless it was really necessary. Been there - done that. Had it been a more secluded spot - that would have been over in seconds.

The POS he was arresting was doing a lot more "resisting" than "assaulting" and had it been necessary, that COP looked more than capable of administering another level or force had it been required.

It was worth watching just to see that mouthy female get hooked up.

I have to strongly disagree with the resist vs fighting bit, he tried to punch the copper in the head several times, that he sucked at doing so doesn't matter, intent was there. Had he gotten a lucky shot in the cop would have been in very deep trouble.

This is a classic case, IMHO, of task fixation, and a perfect example of not staying on the ground when one can disengage and go to OC or Taser. I would have gone straight to OC in this situation, and I have a number of times, because the cloud tends to make everyone in the area back off while also disabling the bad guy.

Mouthy bitch would have gone to jail as well, and maybe a few of the others.

[Shellback]

As to helping out a cop in a fight....Just yell "stop resisting" really loud and he will assume you are a cop too
Genius!