To Light or Not To Light...for AIWB

[Keebsley]

My search fu is probably weak and it's probably been addressed before but...for those that AIWB, do you just carry a handheld light for those times that things go bump in the night? What is your draw/light/fire process? I know that there are the minimalist holsters out there that allow for AIWB with a weapon mounted light but for those individuals with "too much down there" it can get a bit crowded.

Since most violent encounters occur during low light situations, I was curious how you managed to ID your threat before firing. Granted, if said individuals make their intent clear from the get go, that makes things easier but it's been hammered into me to light up a threat first before applying ballistic intervention.

It's a valid question to me because it is one of the major deciding factors to not AIWB as I can carry IWB with a weapon mounted light for such an occasion but if someone can make me see the light (get it? :cool:) then I might be persuaded to go towards AIWB.

Many thanks.

[SamuelBLong]

Even with a weapon mounted light on the pistol, Im still using a handheld light with a lanyard or combat ring. Intermittent bursts of strobe and changing location of the light away from my body between bursts, just incase someone shoots at it.

The only time the weapon mounted light comes on is if I need two hands and am actively firing at targets. The lanyard or combat ring allows you to "ditch" the handheld light to establish a full 2 hand grip if needed, but pick it back up easily after any potential engagement.

I carry my P30L AIWB with no weaponlight. Handheld light in my left side jeans pocket, opposite position of my SpyderCo Pikal.

At home, I have a different gun setup just for home defense. G34 3.5# w/ NY1, Warren Sights, Surefire X400 and a +2 mag. A handheld light on a lanyard next to it.

You might want to also look into a low light tactics course. You will quickly learn what works and what doesn't based on your needs.

[ToddG]

Outside of actively searching (i.e., "room clearing"), when can you ever imagine needing a light suddenly while carrying concealed? As in, needing to "speed draw" your flashlight?

I'm at a loss to think of many realistic situations.

In most of the situations/scenarios I've seen in classes where people are flailing about trying to get a flashlight out right this nanosecond! they've either:

already seen the target and identified it as a threat without the light, so the light is superfluous and only being pulled out because someone told them to get their flashlight as part of the drill, or;
simply been told on command to engage an unidentified target at either an unknown or roughly known location as fast as possible, which is the training analogue of overreacting to a bump in the night.


In other words, if you haven't identified something as a potential threat, why would you be "speed drawing" your flashlight to begin with?

I'd much rather have a small, convenient, flashlight that I can easily keep in my hand when I'm <walking the dog, walking to the car, etc.> at night.

[Up1911Fan]

G19 AIWB, Surefire EB1 in left rear pocket, among other things. No weaponlight for daily carry for me.

[SamuelBLong]

Outside of actively searching (i.e., "room clearing"), when can you ever imagine needing a light suddenly while carrying concealed? As in, needing to "speed draw" your flashlight?

I'm at a loss to think of many realistic situations.


Using it to smash someone in the face.

But someone would be in an awfully bad spot if it got to that point. I'd be much more focused on throwing hands and getting the hell out of that situation.

Pretty much... Todd is right.

I will now stop posting and get working on getting my E&O insurance so Todd and the rest of the PT/PF community will be happy.

Good to have you back.

[Wendell]

If you want to AIWB a pistol with a light, a Crimson Trace Lightguard (http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/lightguard) might be the light for the role

[orionz06]

A light on the gun seemed like a requirement to me at one point. A handheld was also a requirement and the WML never negated the need for a handheld. After taking Armed Movement in Structures (http://shivworks.com/?page_id=881) from Southnarc I couldn't care less about the shit hanging off the gun. It seemed, until then, you would have to shoot me to get me to go without the WML. It certainly opens doors and if I wasn't backed up so much I would get a Lightguard and make an AIWB for myself to use but I can go without and never skip a beat.

[Up1911Fan]

I would think a WML would be an asset when moving through a structure?

[TGS]

My search fu is probably weak and it's probably been addressed before but...for those that AIWB, do you just carry a handheld light for those times that things go bump in the night? What is your draw/light/fire process? I know that there are the minimalist holsters out there that allow for AIWB with a weapon mounted light but for those individuals with "too much down there" it can get a bit crowded.

My pistol is nowhere near my junk when I AIWB....it's well above it. FWIW, when carrying AWIB, your muzzle isn't stuffed into your scrotum unless you're carrying an obscenely large pistol or are a midget.


Since most violent encounters occur during low light situations, I was curious how you managed to ID your threat before firing.

With a handheld light. If it's just sumdood walking down the sidewalk, you can just take out your light and shine it at the ground (like any other person using a flashlight at night to see where they're going), as lights in people's faces tend to anger them. Out in public, a handheld light allows you to use the light to keep situation awareness, as well as deselect yourself from targeting, much more so than a WML. You don't have to wait to find out that the person walking down the sidewalk is intending to do you harm, whereas with a WML you do. For armed citizens, a WML has much more utility for HD than CCW (in my opinion).


Granted, if said individuals make their intent clear from the get go, that makes things easier but it's been hammered into me to light up a threat first before applying ballistic intervention.

I agree. I think it's always a good idea to light up the threat before shooting. Not doing so may lead to your shots being off......like 2 to the stomach and one to the arm.....not that it has ever happened before.


It's a valid question to me because it is one of the major deciding factors to not AIWB as I can carry IWB with a weapon mounted light for such an occasion but if someone can make me see the light (get it? :cool:) then I might be persuaded to go towards AIWB.

Inline with my comments above (and many other members, it seems) my input would be to reevaluate the realistic utility offered by a WML before using that as a metric to limit yourself to certain tools or methods.

[TGS]

I would think a WML would be an asset when moving through a structure?

Yes, it can be. That has limited application for a civilian CCW, in my opinion.

[orionz06]

I would think a WML would be an asset when moving through a structure?

Control over the light and where it is coming from is more of an asset.

[JV_]

when carrying AWIB, your muzzle isn't stuffed into your scrotum unless you're carrying an obscenely large pistol or are a midget.He didn't mention his "junk" or his scrotum, he mentioned a crowding issue. And it's not as simple as you're trying to imply.

Slide length, belt/waist height, body shapes that may push the muzzle of the gun inward, hip/leg size, and other issues can all exacerbate a perceived crowding issue.

[TGS]

He didn't mention his "junk" or his scrotum, he mentioned a crowding issue. And it's not as simple as you're trying to imply.

Slide length, belt/waist height, body shapes that may push the muzzle of the gun inward, hip/leg size, and other issues can all exacerbate a perceived crowding issue.


I know that there are the minimalist holsters out there that allow for AIWB with a weapon mounted light but for those individuals with "too much down there" it can get a bit crowded.


Anatomically, there's not much else that could to be "too much down there." I guess I misinterpreted what I highlighted in bold.

[GJM]

Since most violent encounters occur during low light situations, I was curious how you managed to ID your threat before firing. Granted, if said individuals make their intent clear from the get go, that makes things easier but it's been hammered into me to light up a threat first before applying ballistic intervention.

It's a valid question to me because it is one of the major deciding factors to not AIWB as I can carry IWB with a weapon mounted light for such an occasion but if someone can make me see the light (get it? :cool:) then I might be persuaded to go towards AIWB.

I started to answer this twice earlier but "re-holstered" each time. Seems like to answer it, you need to understand your assumptions, which seem to be:

1) Most violent encounters occur during low light.

2) You need light in low light situations.

3) If 1 and 2 above are correct, AIWB may be disqualified by virtue of lack of holster options.

My responses would be, regardless of whether you think low light is most likely to be a factor, and regardless of whether or not you have a WML, you need a hand held flashlight. The choice of AIWB is not necessarily yes or no -- for example, AIWB is my 80 per cent solution, because of how comfortable and concealable it is, but I OWB at times for different reasons, one of which is the ability to more easily carry a WML. If it really is low light, virtually any holster is concealable.

After a few years of carrying AIWB, I would be extremely unhappy if AIWB was no longer an option.

[JV_]

I guess I misinterpreted what I highlighted in bold.I may have as well. I don't keep my gun at 12 o'clock, it's more at 12:30, and crowding can be an issue because of my leg and inside hip design. Slide length is also an issue if bending causes the gun's muzzle to push inward. Sometimes a longer muzzle is much better (I now AIWB a Glock 34). I don't have many issues with AIWB when standing straight up, but if I start doing actual work like moving furniture or bending a lot, slide length (or more importantly - holster length) matters.

FWIW: I have a slide length issue if I go too short as well, there's a sweet spot.

[Kevin B.]

I typically carry with one attached to my pistol, though I carry OWB. I find the WML to offer an advantage under a narrow set of circumstances, in much the same way night sights do. I also carry a hand held light. I occassionally carry without a WML and do not feel significantly disadvantaged.

For pure shooting in low-light, I have yet to meet anyone who can duplicate their WML performance while using any of the hand-held flashlight techniques. Running a drill like the FAST (start from the ready) or El Prez serves to highlight the advantage the WML provides. For any circumstance where a light is required, but a requirement to shoot is not imminent, I use my hand-held light. In my view, a well-developed low-light skill set includes the use of both hand-held lights and WMLs.

I know "combat rings" and other methods of securing the light to the non-firing hand are very much in vogue. A friend running a precursor to the purpose-built products of today (a grenade pin attached to the light with 550-cord) had to have major surgery to one of his fingers after he went hands-on with someone. Not for me.

[TGS]

I may have as well. I don't keep my gun at 12 o'clock, it's more at 12:30, and crowding can be an issue because of my leg and inside hip design. Slide length is also an issue if bending causes the gun's muzzle to push inward. Sometimes a longer muzzle is much better (I now AIWB a Glock 34). I don't have many issues with AIWB when standing straight up, but if I start doing actual work like moving furniture or bending a lot, slide length does matter.

Truth. I use to carry 12:30, and bending over would indeed press the muzzle of my P2000 uncomfortably into that tender area above the goods. I put a wedge on the bottom of my shaggy, and with that I moved it to 2 O'Clock. Much to my delight, the muzzle hides perfectly in the crease of my hip, and I can bend over without any grief at all.

Of course, carrying there wouldn't allow a WML and it'd be extremely dependent on slide length.

[JV_]

Of course, carrying there wouldn't allow a WML and it'd be extremely dependent on slide length.I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it with my 17 or 34.

[ToddG]

For pure shooting in low-light, I have yet to meet anyone who can duplicate their WML performance while using any of the hand-held flashlight techniques. Running a drill like the FAST (start from the ready) or El Prez serves to highlight the advantage the WML provides.

I don't disagree at all... a WML essentially means you're using your normal optimum grip which is going to be superior to any 1- or 1.5-handed grip techniques. However, that assumes you're only concerned about shooting and not switching the light, tactics, etc. El Prez is a great example... you wouldn't use the light the same way you would in a real 1-vs-3 situation.

For the moments when shooting is going on, having the light on and having it attached to the gun so you can maintain your normal grip is a huge advantage.

[GJM]

For the moments when shooting is going on, having the light on and having it attached to the gun so you can maintain your normal grip is a huge advantage.

And if you are shooting with one hand, like with a dog leash in one hand, and have a remote pressure tape, even more so.

Last summer, I had our bird dog on a leash walking the edge of an airstrip in rural Alaska, and stumbled on a black bear in the brush about ten yards away. While the bear ran, and there isn't much darkness in Alaska then, it is easy to see how the circumstances could have been different.
With animals, the first target indicator in darkness might well be noise, with no visual -- and at that moment, 500+ lumens with a remote tape would be very welcome.

To Todd's point on the advantage of a "normal grip" with the WML, I shot Dot Torture in the pitch dark a few months ago with a G34/X300/remote tape, and to my recollection shot 50/50 at 7 yards.

[Keebsley]

Again, I don't proclaim that I know everything or am a steely eyed killer. I also carry a hand held light in addition to the WML on my Glock as I understand that the need to be able to use both is beneficial.

I was just curious as to how those that AIWB handle low light situations without a WML and if they consider themselves to be at a "disadvantage" with having to use whatever flavor/method they choose.

It appears that it all depends on the circumstances that is presented as with anything. I haven't attended AMIS but I'm curious as to what the consensus is. Was a WML critical? Were people able to accomplish and get good hits using whatever method needed if they didn't have a WML? Again, everyone's circumstances and situations differ.

I'm making an assumption but I know that myself like others probably don't get enough low/no light training in and I could definitely use more.

Maybe I need to sit and reassess my situation and circumstances...and also find a quality AIWB holster...again...

[tmoore912]

I put a CT LightGuard on my G17, after getting a 2nd appendix holster made by JM Custom Kydex, back this Summer. It has worked well so far for this ordinary joe. I also carry a small light on my belt or pocket for lighting up the darkness when I need it.

I didn't see a down side to having and using it if I was ever involved in your typical close proximity self defense encounter.

[lightning fast]

I put a CT LightGuard on my G17, after getting a 2nd appendix holster made by JM Custom Kydex, back this Summer. It has worked well so far for this ordinary joe. I also carry a small light on my belt or pocket for lighting up the darkness when I need it.

I didn't see a down side to having and using it if I was ever involved in your typical close proximity self defense encounter.

Was this something you had to custom order, or were they able to accomodate you just by adding it to the comments box while ordering?

[tmoore912]

Was this something you had to custom order, or were they able to accomodate you just by adding it to the comments box while ordering?

I contacted Tony Mayer (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?2507-Tony-Mayer) the owner of JM Custom Kydex through email or PM and asked about the LightGuard option. He has one to use on the mold I'm pretty sure.

These are my holsters from Tony. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3597-JM-Custom-Kydex-AIWB-holster-review&p=87636&viewfull=1#post87636

[lightning fast]

I contacted Tony Mayer (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?2507-Tony-Mayer) the owner of JM Custom Kydex through email or PM and asked about the LightGuard option. He has one to use on the mold I'm pretty sure.

These are my holsters from Tony. http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3597-JM-Custom-Kydex-AIWB-holster-review&p=87636&viewfull=1#post87636

.... that may have just convinced me to buy a LightGuard to test out. Thanks for your help.

[rjohnson4405]

Tony is awesome, he'll take care of you.

I wanted a lightguard compatible AIWB holster for a Glock 19 and he didn't have a lightguard so I shipped him mine first, he made the holster and shipped them both to me! Awesome CS.

[Super J]

Dale Fricke made an appendix holster for my rmr'ed G17 with x300. It is far from a tiny holster but its comfortable and secure.