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View Full Version : Buck list: A2 Colt. 600 yards - 10" grouping..or less..



ezthumper
01-30-2013, 04:25 PM
So I go to the Shooting range, start setting up for some me time, (I normally pack some drinks, lunch and a couple of snacks, yeah I am there all day.) and work on some marksmanship.

I look to my left and there is this guy with a nice new M4 rig...and a big fancy $400 scope mounted on it. I look back at mine, and I see a carrying handle, triangle forearms, forward assist, the windage wheel you have to turn with the end of a bullet, old frayed strap....and a full stock with an extra firing pin, rod, brush, screw driver, dental picks, grease and a spoon for my clipper strips in the butt stock. I have an A2 with a 20" barrel, it was exactly like my duty weapon I was familiar with and I missed it.

I wheel over and get behind the glass to see his grouping, and he was all over the between the 10 and 8 ring at 50 yards. Ok,he is working out the kinks...he should be on it shortly. I grab a short mag, load three rounds and see where my grouping is. High left, 1/2" of center, nice group, however operator error. He got behind the glass and asked do you live out here? I told him no, I use a wire.

He got me thinking, back in the day, I was trained that the max effective was 450 meters (492 yards) with an m-16. I then "volunteered" for a combat competition that pitted us against other units and bases. There we were taught to bring it out a bit farther, more in the line of 550 meters (601 yards). Now here is the deal, this was with only iron sights, but we were only required to at least hit center mass, and so many rounds out of a set number. Have no idea what that number was...that was more than 25 years ago. But grouping my shots was not required or expected, I think it was more like, damn you hit it!, you pass.

Now, that I am older, and that I am a bit obsessive, I want to now try to get a nice grouping at at 600 yards with my A2. It is like one of the bucket list things.

My eye sight is not what it used to be, and I want to put in a grouping with in a 10" diam circle.

-So looking for input for a decent scope that allows me to adjust on the fly.

-Trying to figure out if the 1/7 twist is bad for the 55 grain or do I need to jump up to a 72 grain.

Your response is appreciated:

TGS
01-30-2013, 04:41 PM
First, I think a 10" group at 600 yards is pretty aggressive, especially if you're actually shooting and not one of these foo-foo benchrest people. You're going to need to be very dialed in. You're most certainly going to need a decently tuned NM level rifle, as well. If you have a rack grade A2 that is even capable of sub-2MOA at 600 yards, that would be truly exceptional.

Considering your fondness for the A2, I'm sure you can make some decent improvements that may still allow you to use irons and get that nostalgia kick, which you may like compared to a scope....but I'm not sure about 10" at 600 yards. Sub-2MOA at 600 yards is going to take some serious investments no matter what, which is why I'm questioning that goal.

There are stick-on apertures for your shooting glasses that can make a world of difference for your eyesight. They're little circular discs that simply stick to your glasses.

Also, have you tried a good set of national match sights?

Lastly, before buying anything.....did you check to make sure your 0-200 sight wasn't flipped up? ;)

MEH
01-30-2013, 04:48 PM
Are planning to shoot in prone position all slung up or from a bench? Is your barrel free floated? How well do you read the wind?

The 10 ring for a 600 yards target is 12" diameter. Not just anyone can clean that position with all 10's. Course this is with iron sights. A scope would make it slightly easier if the rifle is up to it.

Go with heavier bullets. The majority of competition shooters (who load 1 at a time anyways) will use 80 grain bullets loaded longer than mag length. If you want mag length then go with 77 SMK's (Sierra).

10" is a mighty task even with a scope. Good luck.

secondstoryguy
01-30-2013, 06:33 PM
With a well built rifle, the right ammo and good technique it's certainly possible. Wind is going to be your biggest enemy as even a 5mph cross might blow you out of your 10" circle.

LittleLebowski
01-30-2013, 09:36 PM
Dental picks?

Drang
01-30-2013, 10:00 PM
Some like them for carbon scraping.

Kyle Reese
01-31-2013, 08:42 AM
Some like them for carbon scraping.

Waste of time and energy.

LittleLebowski
01-31-2013, 08:43 AM
Waste of time and energy.

My thoughts, your words.

ezthumper
01-31-2013, 10:31 AM
Are planning to shoot in prone position all slung up or from a bench?

Prone, I do not have one of those things that look like a T&E.


Is your barrel free floated?

I actually ordered the parts to free float after I read your post, thank you for that.


How well do you read the wind?

Fairly well. It is a developing skill. But I have other factors living in South East Texas.


The 10 ring for a 600 yards target is 12" diameter. Not just anyone can clean that position with all 10's. Course this is with iron sights. A scope would make it slightly easier if the rifle is up to it.

The idea here is a challenge, no money or any sort of competition. I am not under any sort of illusions of grandeur, it is just a challenge. I do this constantly to see how far I can push myself just to see if I can do it, in anything I do, nothing more than that. Because seriously, what is the point practicing your marksmanship if you go to the range where you know every time you shoot, you will be pretty much on every time. Where is the next step in your growth if you don't push it?

I am going to try the iron sights just to see if I can still hit paper. Then I am going to dress up the old girl, and see what I can do. I am thinking it will be one of those ongoing challenges, like trying to get a hole in one.


If you want mag length then go with 77 SMK's (Sierra).

Thank you for this, this has helped quite a bit.


10" is a mighty task even with a scope. Good luck.

thank you, but you know sometimes it is what you learn along the journey to your goal that is much more valuable, and rewarding than actually obtaining it.

LittleLebowski
01-31-2013, 10:44 AM
Looking forward to seeing how this goes. Keep us updated.

MEH
01-31-2013, 12:57 PM
Looking forward to seeing how this goes. Keep us updated.

Yes, definitely keep us updated. I think you are going to enjoy this project.

Nate
01-31-2013, 01:22 PM
Now, that I am older, and that I am a bit obsessive, I want to now try to get a nice grouping at at 600 yards with my A2. It is like one of the bucket list things.

My eye sight is not what it used to be, and I want to put in a grouping with in a 10" diam circle.

-So looking for input for a decent scope that allows me to adjust on the fly.

-Trying to figure out if the 1/7 twist is bad for the 55 grain or do I need to jump up to a 72 grain.

Your response is appreciated:

It's very much possible, but your gun as it is probably isn't up to it by other than dumb luck. You'll want (very likely *need*) a float tube. If you don't mind a "modern" railed tube, there's your answer. If you want it to be more A2-styled, look at the "service rifle" (read: "stock car" version of an M16A2) float tubes that highpower shooters use. You'll also probably need a good barrel--good doesn't have to mean Krieger/Brux/Bartlein/etc, but it's (almost certainly) going to require better than a standard A2 barrel that comes on most factory guns. (http://whiteoakarmament.com/ and http://keystoneaccuracy.com/ have darn good barrels in the $200-250 range that I can recommend. I've shot the $200 Wilson 1:7s from WOA in my service rifle for years, going through about a half dozen of them, and they've all been good enough to hold the X-ring at 600)

Once you've got a good barrel and float tube and good ammo (a 77gr match bullet of your choice if you want to stay at mag length, 80s are an option if you don't mind single-loading) the gun should be more than capable of holding the X-ring at 600. (The X-ring on the 600 yard target is 6") The AR in service rifle form isn't easy to hold the X-ring with, and the post sight is only part of that reason. (I've shot more than a few 100-10X strings with my bolt guns, but the best I've managed with the service rifle is a 100-8X.)

Using a scope will make it easier, but even with a rest/bipod (to say nothing of using only a sling for support) the actual shooting portion will be the limiting factor, not the equipment (once upgraded somewhat) or the sights.

I've seen some of the AMU (army) and Marine service rifle team shooters shoot not much bigger than 10" groups for 30-45+ shots at 600 in 50 seconds. (head and torso silhouette targets exposed for 50 seconds, the best shooters are putting 35+ shots on target, with no more than a miss or two, and usually none) Sometimes those groups are absolutely tiny.

Another suggestion is to check out an F-class match. (go for "mid range" rather than long range, if possible, if you're shooting an AR) Yeah, it's not exactly informal, but folks are usually quite helpful, and you'll learn a lot about shooting at itty-bitty targets at distance.

ezthumper
01-31-2013, 02:06 PM
It's very much possible, but your gun as it is probably isn't up to it by other than dumb luck. You'll want (very likely *need*) a float tube. If you don't mind a "modern" railed tube, there's your answer. If you want it to be more A2-styled, look at the "service rifle" (read: "stock car" version of an M16A2) float tubes that highpower shooters use. You'll also probably need a good barrel--good doesn't have to mean Krieger/Brux/Bartlein/etc, but it's (almost certainly) going to require better than a standard A2 barrel that comes on most factory guns. (http://whiteoakarmament.com/ and http://keystoneaccuracy.com/ have darn good barrels in the $200-250 range that I can recommend. I've shot the $200 Wilson 1:7s from WOA in my service rifle for years, going through about a half dozen of them, and they've all been good enough to hold the X-ring at 600)

Great lead on the barrels thank you, and an upper also that might work. As far the "look" I am not all to concerned about it, I carry a lego gun, so aesthetics is pretty much not on my priority list. After chasing down some leads you and TGS posted, this rifle of mine is going to have a brand new look, literally.


Once you've got a good barrel and float tube and good ammo (a 77gr match bullet of your choice if you want to stay at mag length, 80s are an option if you don't mind single-loading) the gun should be more than capable of holding the X-ring at 600. (The X-ring on the 600 yard target is 6") The AR in service rifle form isn't easy to hold the X-ring with, and the post sight is only part of that reason. (I've shot more than a few 100-10X strings with my bolt guns, but the best I've managed with the service rifle is a 100-8X.)

Outstanding, you just set my first goal.


Using a scope will make it easier, but even with a rest/bipod (to say nothing of using only a sling for support) the actual shooting portion will be the limiting factor, not the equipment (once upgraded somewhat) or the sights.

Agreed.


I've seen some of the AMU (army) and Marine service rifle team shooters shoot not much bigger than 10" groups for 30-45+ shots at 600 in 50 seconds. (head and torso silhouette targets exposed for 50 seconds, the best shooters are putting 35+ shots on target, with no more than a miss or two, and usually none) Sometimes those groups are absolutely tiny.

Yeah, some of those guys are amazing. Our competition was a bit different. It was more of an inner-branch competition and we had to run, drop, sling, acquire, engage and move again. So I never really got the opportunity to really focus on maxing out my equipment. It got me out of humping the missile fields in North Dakota for several months, so that was nice.


Another suggestion is to check out an F-class match. (go for "mid range" rather than long range, if possible, if you're shooting an AR) Yeah, it's not exactly informal, but folks are usually quite helpful, and you'll learn a lot about shooting at itty-bitty targets at distance.

That is actually a fantastic idea.

HCL3
02-06-2013, 10:15 PM
The 10 ring on an NRA MR-1 target (600 yard slow fire prone rifle target) is about 12" across. It's certainly doable with the right gun and assuming the shooter does their part. The two biggest things I would recommend are a free float tube and a good service rifle sling.

ezthumper
02-11-2013, 05:42 PM
The 10 ring on an NRA MR-1 target (600 yard slow fire prone rifle target) is about 12" across. It's certainly doable with the right gun and assuming the shooter does their part. The two biggest things I would recommend are a free float tube and a good service rifle sling.

Yep, got the parts to free float the barrel, and then after someone made a suggestion about something else, I ended up spending more money.

So a small update:

My wife suggested we go out to the range for my birthday, and feeling a bit Eeyore, I figure why not, the smell of cordite usually makes me feel better, so off to the gun cabinet to look at what I want to shoot. I got to thinking, you know, why the hell not, I have not done anything with the weapon as of yet, so it would be a great time to set a base line. I grab my old girl out of the cabinet and turn around and my wife is stuffing pistols, magazines, ammo for a small war and lots of masking tape to plug the holes. (She grabbed the 19c, 586 S&W and the 1911, looking for a little variety I suppose.)

I get out to the site, get sorted and it starts to rain, I just look up and say it figures, get in position and make sure that I am clear to fire the weapon. My wife sitting in the burb is spotting for me, and she gives me the clear.

I open up slow firing, and I can here her say "close babe", "ooh almost"..."good job". At first I was wondering if she was messing with me about "something else" or was I really hitting the the silhouette. After about 5 rounds I turn around and ask how many hit the target, She paused and said "Um, you were trying to hit the target? I thought you trying to get close, hun, you may act like a kid, your body is telling you something completely different, now get you ass in the truck and take me down to the pistol range, you hit it twice."

I actually hit 2 out of 5. low and to the right of the silhouette. Open sites. Stock weapon. 55 grain FMJ Federals.

Now I am going to replace the upper to go with a flat top, add a cheek piece, float the barrel. And use the 77 grain SKS that was suggested earlier ITT.

TGS
02-11-2013, 05:47 PM
What's the cheek piece for?

ezthumper
02-11-2013, 07:43 PM
What's the cheek piece for?

Dunno, my buddy gave me that because he thought he was helping...so, I said thank you, and put in my stuff pile.

SecondsCount
02-12-2013, 10:21 AM
My suggestion would be to take a class from a long range shooter who has experience with the AR platform before spending any money.

It will probably save you money in the long run.

MEH
02-12-2013, 10:32 AM
My suggestion would be to take a class from a long range shooter who has experience with the AR platform before spending any money.

Agree with this and depending on where in Houston you are located there are several high power clubs and shoots in the area. These guys are generally friendly and very helpful shooters new to the high power game. They can help you accomplish your goal.

Here is just one group: Bayou Rifles in Bellaire (http://www.bayourifles.org/index.php/competitions/high-power-rifle-division). There are others and google will find them for you.

ezthumper
02-12-2013, 01:38 PM
My suggestion would be to take a class from a long range shooter who has experience with the AR platform before spending any money.

It will probably save you money in the long run.

True, the more you learn the less you really know. Granted, my skills are somewhat up to snuff if pressed, but no where near any sort of comp level, in which I am not interested in. As far as the money, I do see your point, however, it is not the issue. If was out to just hit the target, then I would just send a $5 bullet down range and call it a day. Trying to do this in a more of a minimalistic method.....to a point. So now I need to add equipment to the AR to bring it up to a point where it helps me acquire my target and achieve the goal or get lasik surgery.


Agree with this and depending on where in Houston you are located there are several high power clubs and shoots in the area. These guys are generally friendly and very helpful shooters new to the high power game. They can help you accomplish your goal.

Here is just one group: Bayou Rifles in Bellaire (http://www.bayourifles.org/index.php/competitions/high-power-rifle-division). There are others and google will find them for you.

Thank you for the link, and that just opened up to something new for me. The current range I go to only sits at 600 yards, but it is nice, and very nice folks. I will give that a go.





Maybe it is my unsophisticated approach, and maybe I have presented this to the community all wrong. But has any one here, tried to do something with minimal tools...just to see if you can? Like shooting a pencil in half or shoot a nickle, from 50 to 100 yards with a .22 using open sights? Or ever been grounded for shooting your moms thimbles off the fence? Out with your buddies shooting those little balls from the ball pit at Chuckey Cheeses floating down a river......just to do it?

TGS
02-12-2013, 02:17 PM
True, the more you learn the less you really know. Granted, my skills are somewhat up to snuff if pressed, but no where near any sort of comp level, in which I am not interested in.

Well, your goal of 10" at 600 yards is most certainly comp level. Extremely good comp level, at that. None of the instructors at my NRA High Power Service Rifle clinic could do that, if we're talking prone with a sling and a service rifle.


So now I need to add equipment to the AR to bring it up to a point where it helps me acquire my target and achieve the goal or get lasik surgery.

I guess you're on track with getting the flat-top receiver then, so you can properly mount a scope. I'm not sure what size silhouette you were shooting, but a rack grade AR15 should be capable of hitting a human silhouette at 500 all day. So, not knowing what size silhouette you were shooting, I'm still going to danger that any further spending would be better spent on training after you put on the scope and FF tube as that should be a pretty capable platform to start with. When you get 9/10 or 10/10 hits on the target you were previously getting 2/5 on, then it'd be time to start looking at further upgrades to the AR15 itself.


Maybe it is my unsophisticated approach, and maybe I have presented this to the community all wrong. But has any one here, tried to do something with minimal tools...just to see if you can? Like shooting a pencil in half or shoot a nickle, from 50 to 100 yards with a .22 using open sights? Or ever been grounded for shooting your moms thimbles off the fence? Out with your buddies shooting those little balls from the ball pit at Chuckey Cheeses floating down a river......just to do it?

Sure. I think an honest assessment is in order, however. The goal you set is a realistic goal, but it's going to take some real investment on your part in terms of training and the rifle. For 10" at 600 yards, you're definitely going to need a match grade barrel. If you're talking about doing this in the prone with a sling, you're also going to need a nice quality sling (I have a Turner's that I love), decent shooting mat, and a high quality stiff competition shooting jacket. If you're not looking to do this in traditional position shooting, and instead from a bench....then that will cut out quite a bit of the skill and specialized equipment necessary. Either way, it's still quite a bit more involved than shooting Chucky Cheese balls in a river.

Like everyone has said, it's definitely a goal you can accomplish. My input is that you still need to do an honest assessment of what you're actually willing to put in in order to accomplish it. We talking lots and lots of hours practicing to be perfect...not just practicing to do well or just shooting something for fun "just to do it."

Dave J
02-12-2013, 02:35 PM
Aside from what's already been suggested, you might find some of Glen Zediker's material useful.

http://zediker.com/

ezthumper
02-12-2013, 04:10 PM
Well, your goal of 10" at 600 yards is most certainly comp level. Extremely good comp level, at that. None of the instructors at my NRA High Power Service Rifle clinic could do that, if we're talking prone with a sling and a service rifle.

Yes, prone with sling. (I can take naps during break time)




I guess you're on track with getting the flat-top receiver then, so you can properly mount a scope. I'm not sure what size silhouette you were shooting, but a rack grade AR15 should be capable of hitting a human silhouette at 500 all day. So, not knowing what size silhouette you were shooting, I'm still going to danger that any further spending would be better spent on training after you put on the scope and FF tube as that should be a pretty capable platform to start with. When you get 9/10 or 10/10 hits on the target you were previously getting 2/5 on, then it'd be time to start looking at further upgrades to the AR15 itself.

Man sized silhouette, with the standard AR, 5.56 55 grain ball, standard open sites. Triangle fore arm. Mil issue sling. The 2/5 hits were lucky. But I do know I have to upgrade the weapon, and so far everyone here has given me great direction.




Sure. I think an honest assessment is in order, however. The goal you set is a realistic goal, but it's going to take some real investment on your part in terms of training and the rifle. For 10" at 600 yards, you're definitely going to need a match grade barrel. If you're talking about doing this in the prone with a sling, you're also going to need a nice quality sling (I have a Turner's that I love), decent shooting mat, and a high quality stiff competition shooting jacket. If you're not looking to do this in traditional position shooting, and instead from a bench....then that will cut out quite a bit of the skill and specialized equipment necessary.

I looked up the Turner Sling on Turner Saddlery, and they seem very reasonable, are you using the NM All weather? Or the Police Tactical?

Any way, yeah the mat would have been a better idea, got wet the other day, and again, it serves as a good nap mat. Dual purpose. But the Bench, I have had no use for it, I don't look at it as cheating, just is not comfortable, and it makes wonder if I am truly practicing marksmanship while sitting there.


Either way, it's still quite a bit more involved than shooting Chucky Cheese balls in a river.

lol, Hey, you should give it go on the Truckee River in the white water...it moves pretty quick. It is all about perspective.

http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n597/ezthumper01/2011-US-CA-truckee-river0001_zpsa1ded103.jpg



Like everyone has said, it's definitely a goal you can accomplish. My input is that you still need to do an honest assessment of what you're actually willing to put in in order to accomplish it. We talking lots and lots of hours practicing to be perfect...not just practicing to do well or just shooting something for fun "just to do it."

Practicing to be perfect..is the fun part of it.


Aside from what's already been suggested, you might find some of Glen Zediker's material useful.http://zediker.com/

Yes thank you, it has lead me into other avenues also..

TGS
02-12-2013, 04:28 PM
I looked up the Turner Sling on Turner Saddlery, and they seem very reasonable, are you using the NM All weather? Or the Police Tactical?

I bought the regular NM (http://www.mcssl.com/store/turnersaddleryinc/catalog/product/0011954fcd704c308e83a6d56c4e16fd).

MEH
02-12-2013, 05:31 PM
As far as slings go a standard GI cotten web sling (http://www.illinoishighpower.org/general_highpower_info/ISRA%20SR%20Sling.pdf) works great and is really all you will need. Scroll to the end of the link for how to properly sling.

ezthumper
02-12-2013, 06:00 PM
As far as slings go a standard GI cotten web sling (http://www.illinoishighpower.org/general_highpower_info/ISRA%20SR%20Sling.pdf) works great and is really all you will need. Scroll to the end of the link for how to properly sling.


Ahh very good, that might work a bit better. I do now have time to do this properly, verses not knowing how long I am going to be engaging the target.

I did the wrap the sling around the elbow kind of maneuver.

HCL3
02-18-2013, 10:02 AM
The GI cotton sling is certainly cheaper but IMO is much harder to adjust and to keep adjusted the same way each time you sling up. As far as 1907 patter slings go the Turner is a good sling, but for the same money you can buy a custom one from Ron Brown (http://servicerifleslings.com). Ron will work with you to figure out the length you need plus you get to select what color leather you want plus what type if hardware. His craftsmanship is top noch and from what I can tell uses higher quality materials than Turner.