ROE's: theory vs. reality

[MDS]

Like the song says: "I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested. I'd like to think that if I was I would pass."

There have been threads where we compare notes on ROE's, but I don't know if there's a thread where we write down those lines in the sand. And if we have stories that show how those theoretical ROE's work out in real life, I think that would be valuable to compare and contrast. How did you change your ROE's after a violent or potentially violent encounter?

For myself, my ROE's are simple. I'll use all the non-deadly means at my disposal to protect property. My sig quotes Cooper (http://practicalfirearmstraining.com/Reading/Cooper-vs-Terrorism.cfm): "the answer, it seems to me, is wrath." I firmly believe that everyday "normal" folks should fight back when criminals try to make them a victim. I won't use deadly force to protect property, but using non-deadly force opens the possibility that the criminal will escalate to deadly force. In that case, my ROE's are:

Any B&E type activity gives me a green light. Sometimes it's a punk kid, sometimes it's a coordinated team of hardened murderers, and I don't know how to tell them apart quickly. There's just too much at stake. Otherwise...
If I see the attacker has a deadly force option but it's not in play, I'm free to draw but not yet shoot.
If the attacker moves to bring the deadly force into play, it's all fair.
If I'm not sure whether the attacker is moving to bring deadly force into play, I'll issue verbal commands, and I'll wait until either I'm sure or my safety margin is too small. Then it's all fair.


I don't have to use deadly force in those scenarios, it's just that I won't feel justified outside of those. And "deadly force" can mean many things: multiple dudes or a single big and/or trained dude looking to choke me out could qualify!

I also like the list of boundaries from Kathy Jackson's corneredcat.com (http://www.corneredcat.com/article/mindset/personal-boundaries/) for deciding on deadly force - these are "line in the sand" type ROE's and I'll use whatever tools at my disposal: gun, knife, Other Strong Whatever... I feel like I should add to this list, but I can't think of any other absolute NO type scenarios.

I will not go anywhere at gunpoint.
I will not be tied up.
I will not kneel.
If someone tries to take one of my children, I will fight even at the risk of my child being killed in the resultant firefight.


Now here's my scenario. It's recent, and even though I think I did the right thing, it got me thinking that I should put my ROE's in black and white, see what other informed people think. So it's a bit like cheating on my part, since the I'm writing the ROE's after they've potentially been altered by the scenario where they're tested. I don't think so - the silver lining of this encounter is that I feel pretty comfortable with the scenario and how it maps to how I've always thought to deal with this sort of thing. Decide for yourself!

I recently had a situation where my ROE's were tested right up to the limit. I'm reading email at 1pm on the verandah of a busy coffee shop. Sumdood grabs my laptop and runs. After realizing that it wasn't just a buddy's practical joke, I take off after Sumdood, screaming that if he just drops it it'll be OK, and blah blah blah. (And, I'd like to say, my recent PT pays off because even though Sumdood is faster than me for the first half-block, I start to catch up to him as he slows down... :cool:)

He rounds a corner and heads for his getaway car. I'm maybe 10 yards behind him, no way he has time to get in the car. He reaches around to the small of his back, where I see what looks like the butt of a J frame. I stop running, draw, and amp up the vocals even more. As soon as the driver sees my gun, he pulls another half-block ahead in a hurry, leaving his buddy in the dust. (Coward.) I'm walking now, trying to keep some distance but not willing to totally disengage at this point. I maintain maybe a 20yd distance. Sumdood keeps his hand on the J frame grip, but doesn't pull it out and he keeps his back to me. Driver keeps the car moving, too, (the coward,) and Sumdood is having a hard time getting in. Eventually, Sumdood manages to get in the car and driver peels out of there.

I had a lot of options going through my head. I could have kept chasing Sumdood, and either shot him if he pulled his J frame, or else tackled him and dealt with the fray - as I thought about this, I felt fairly confident that driver would have left his buddy to his fate, but the chance of 2-on-1 was not small enough, and Sumdood's gun added to the risk. It briefly occurred to me to shoot into the dirt, thinking to scare off the driver and leaving Sumdood without a ride - or even to shoot the car for easier identification later. (I couldn't read the plate.) I considered backpedaling around the corner, but I felt comfortable that I could get solid hits and even if Sumdood got a shot off with his J frame, at 20yd the safest thing to be was his target. I also thought that maybe it wasn't a J frame? I could see the butt, but maybe it was a cell phone or...something. I thought a lot of other things, too. But in the end I followed my ROE's - I refused to sit back and take it when robbed or mugged, I got ready to use deadly force when I saw an appropriate threat, and I chose not to escalate the situation once deadly force came into play.

Would love to hear ROE's and how any scenarios where they played out might have caused them to evolve.

[Jay Cunningham]

To quote a wise philosopher:

Drunk as hell but no throwin up
Half way home and my pager still blowin up
Today I didn't even have to use my AK
I got to say it was a good day

[TCinVA]

Your actions sounded reasonable to me. You gave chase to a dude stealing your stuff. Reasonable. When you thought he was about to pull a gun, you got yours involved at a distance that heavily favored you. In the end it sounds like you didn't have to ventilate anyone and you didn't get any extra holes. Chalk that up in the win column. You weren't presented with a weapon up front, although it's likely if you'd presented any meaningful resistance he would have pulled the revolver on you while you were focused on fighting for your laptop.

Would it have been less risky to just let the guy have the laptop? Physically...probably. To avoid any risk should we just let bad guys have what they want? I don't know many people who want to live that way.

[Sparks2112]

Depends on the location and the consequences of ones actions in said location. I am of the strong opinion that most good guys get hurt because they don't react violently enough quickly enough when justified to do so.

From an ethical standpoint I operate under a pretty much "weapons free" ROE given the constraints of whatever jurisdictions laws I'm under. If I see a weapon and there is even the slightest hint of it being used on a friendly then I feel pretty good about it. That having been said avoidance is key. Also changing ones response to match the fluid nature of the situation is very important. I've drawn my firearm twice as a civi fully intending to shoot someone, and ended up not having to based on their response. So, it depends.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

It's been a while since I did a self defense & law conference call lecture.

Sounds like I'm doing it again.

Who is donating the conference call line?

[MDS]

For sure. I won't live life cowering, and to me that includes lowering my SA to task fixate in a reasonably safe place. Though I do kinda wish I had an AK. ;)

I guess more than anything I'm mildly surprised that in the heat of the moment, in spite of the various stupid things I thought, I was in no danger of violating my roe's - they were a firm filter for all the possible courses of action that were racing through my mind. I've thought things through, I've practiced to confidence with the gun, and when it came down I stuck with my plan....and in retrospect, there's not much I would have done different. It was a pretty simple situation, though, something like the Caleb Coffee Conundrum would have a lot more gray area.

Would love to hear how theory matched up to reality in real life for others...

[MDS]

It's been a while since I did a self defense & law conference call lecture.

Sounds like I'm doing it again.

Who is donating the conference call line?

I'll lend my bridge, and sit through it again!

[MDS]

From an ethical standpoint I operate under a pretty much "weapons free" ROE given the constraints of whatever jurisdictions laws I'm under. If I see a weapon and there is even the slightest hint of it being used on a friendly then I feel pretty good about it.

That's a clear and succinct way of putting it, thanks!

[TR675]

Whatever the verdict on your ROE, you get props for quoting the Bosstones.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'll lend my bridge, and sit through it again!

How many call-Ins can you take?

[MDS]

How many call-Ins can you take?

I don't know that there's a limit...if there is, I've never hit it with 20+ people...

[David Armstrong]

My ROE is simple...you threaten me or mine with death or severe injury I will do whatever I can to stop you that does not make the situation worse. Other than that, I will do my best to stay out of your way. I won't be happy if you take my property and I will do whatever I think is reasonable to prevent it, but killing or getting killed over property seems like a no-win situation to me except under the most unusual circumstances.

[Mr_White]

I appreciate that it is lawful and reasonable to use or threaten simple physical force to prevent or terminate a theft. I am not saying you are wrong for doing that. And I am sincerely glad that it worked out without you or anyone being hurt.

But.

The problem with using any physical force is that things can and do sometimes spiral out of the control and intentions of any and all parties involved.

I don’t mean you losing control of yourself.

I mean, that dude does pull the j-frame and you quite justifiably shoot him in self-defense. Or you recognized that with his hand on the apparent gun in waistband, you have so little time to react, that his current threat of unlawful deadly force against you means you need to shoot NOW, and you do so.

There are likely to be subsequent characterizations that you shot him over a laptop.

Of course, you didn’t. You, at most, threatened simple physical force by chasing him, in response to his apparent theft of your property. While engaged in that lawful and reasonable activity, you were confronted with an unlawful threat of death or serious injury, to which you responded with deadly force.

It stinks to take the indignity and loss of property entailed in not acting to stop the theft.

But a lot worse things can happen, and they almost did.

When the hipster dufus morons that live right by me close the bar multiple nights a week in the summer and are then yammering and smoking outside my bedroom window at 3am, I have to teach pistol class the next day and I can’t sleep and am super mega pissed, it would be reasonable for me to go ask them to STFU. I don’t, because I can see the headlines now if they decide to do something that requires I use deadly force to defend myself. It’s going to get characterized as ‘man shoots youths over laughing, talking.’

Again, I am not going so far as to say you are wrong, nor am I saying I would never do what you did. I am, however, haunted by the possible worse situation and consequences I might face if the other guy does something that I hadn’t counted on.

The Zimmerman/Martin incident was heavily characterized as “Kid Shot Over Skittles.” I don’t think that’s the reason Zimmerman would say he shot Martin.

You would have a lot better case than him because the guy appeared to actually have a gun and you presumably don’t have to bring disparity of force into it.

I can't imagine I can even hire an attorney, never mind have him do anything, for the cost of a laptop.

[ezthumper]

I was trained on a very simple principal.

Intent, opportunity and capability.

Does the individual have intent, opportunity and capability to do harm to my self and others. This is not a process where I go through step by step and a check list in my head, it is usually something recognizable all at once in a split second to force the use of force up to and including deadly force.

If someone broke into my house, the conversation and the actions are pretty short. I am not going to try to define the intent of the person breaking into my home, that covers all intent I need. He/She is there, my family in in the house, and I will let the police check him/her for weapons after they chalk outline him/her.

The real life incident you mentioned of chasing "Sumdood" down the street was in my mind at the very start had red flags popping up immediately. Tackling Sumdood exposes the possibility of Sumdood grabbing your weapon, there might be more than one individual in the car, shooting into the dirt, not sure at which angle you are speaking of (not a big fan of warning shots, if I draw down and squeeze, I am sending it down range towards my intended target), how much adrenaline is coursing through you might limit the accuracy of your shots into the car.

Would I have drawn my weapon, maybe, but in this case you have already lost control of the situation and the resource.

The first part of your thread about theory vs. reality.

I ran the scenarios in my head a million times, studied, trained hard, role played scenarios, fought the OP4 guys.....and reality was not exactly what I imagined.

[MDS]

My ROE is simple...you threaten me or mine with death or severe injury I will do whatever I can to stop you that does not make the situation worse. Other than that, I will do my best to stay out of your way. I won't be happy if you take my property and I will do whatever I think is reasonable to prevent it, but killing or getting killed over property seems like a no-win situation to me except under the most unusual circumstances.

I can appreciate that! Everyone has their own line in the sand, and it's clear where you've drawn yours. I've given this a lot of thought and I've concluded that I'm not willing to let folks walk all over my property rights. If I didn't have kids to come home to, my line in the sand would be a lot further up than it is, to the point where the thief would have had to give himself up or else forced me to defend my life. I hate that the criminal has all the power in most of the heists he pulls, and I wish that as a society we would make that career choice a lot more dangerous. In this particular story, I can hope that Sumdood will think twice about snatching laptops in the future...

[MDS]

When the hipster dufus morons that live right by me close the bar multiple nights a week in the summer and are then yammering and smoking outside my bedroom window at 3am, I have to teach pistol class the next day and I can’t sleep and am super mega pissed, it would be reasonable for me to go ask them to STFU. I don’t, because I can see the headlines now if they decide to do something that requires I use deadly force to defend myself. It’s going to get characterized as ‘man shoots youths over laughing, talking.’

Makes sense. Just to explore some boundaries here, would you consider calling the police about the noise disturbance? I know sometimes it's a matter of choosing your surroundings - Lord knows I can't wait to get out of South Florida. But if things were always black and white, this wouldn't be such a slippery conversation...

[MDS]

Would I have drawn my weapon, maybe, but in this case you have already lost control of the situation and the resource.

Totally agree about intent, opportunity and capability. Could you explain the above quote a little more? What control is lost when you draw? And what is the resource you mention?


The first part of your thread about theory vs. reality.

I ran the scenarios in my head a million times, studied, trained hard, role played scenarios, fought the OP4 guys.....and reality was not exactly what I imagined.

Yeah, roger that. I've been mugged a bunch of times, and finally got tired of it a few years ago and started to carry and get competent with a pistol and the whole process that goes along with taking that seriously. Again, I am mildly surprised that the roe's I'd figured out in my head were robustly sufficient for this, the first incident after I changed my mind about my roe's. I get the sneaking suspicion that if things are more gray, then the roe's might leave a lot more room for, ah, interpretation... I really need to schedule an ECQC soon. I might skip the rifle class this year and take both ECQC and Randy Cain's close quarters class. Maybe I need some real FoF training more than I need to think even more about this stuff...

[MDS]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses!

[Zhurdan]

I think he's referring to the fact that your laptop was in a position to be stolen in the first place. Meaning control the situation by not sitting there with valuable electronics, weighed against it's benefits, like easy egress vs. possible Sumdood deuchebaggery.

[Mr_White]

Makes sense. Just to explore some boundaries here, would you consider calling the police about the noise disturbance? I know sometimes it's a matter of choosing your surroundings - Lord knows I can't wait to get out of South Florida. But if things were always black and white, this wouldn't be such a slippery conversation...

I considered it. But I didn't think it would be effective so just tried to ignore it as well as I could.

[NETim]

When the hipster dufus morons that live right by me close the bar multiple nights a week in the summer and are then yammering and smoking outside my bedroom window at 3am, I have to teach pistol class the next day and I can’t sleep and am super mega pissed, it would be reasonable for me to go ask them to STFU. I don’t, because I can see the headlines now if they decide to do something that requires I use deadly force to defend myself. It’s going to get characterized as ‘man shoots youths over laughing, talking.’



Discretely launched water balloons? Bag of badgers? :)

[Mr_White]

Discretely launched water balloons? Bag of badgers? :)

It makes me wish I could vomit on demand. Then I could go ask to bum a smoke but puke on them instead. That would be pretty sweet. But no, that would essentially be heading down the same road I don't want to be on.

[Zhurdan]

Bar probably closes at close to the same time every night... drop a few of these outside before they come out. :cool:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4812043602823738&pid=1.7&w=166&h=155&c=7&rs=1

[MDS]

I think he's referring to the fact that your laptop was in a position to be stolen in the first place. Meaning control the situation by not sitting there with valuable electronics, weighed against it's benefits, like easy egress vs. possible Sumdood deuchebaggery.

Ah, gotcha. Before I respond, let me vent a little bit about people (not you, I'm sure!) who can be prone to victim-blaming. All the risk inherent in that situation was of Sumdood's making. If he'd have pulled his revo and gotten shot, that's like saying he jumped off a cliff and broke his legs. I'm deeply offended by the common insinuation that a victim, acting in a legal and ethical manner to defend his life, limb and property, is in any way to blame for the terrible outcomes that sometimes result from the battle between order and chaos. And while I appreciate tips about improving SA, there's a certain level of paranoia I won't rise to. We all take a calculated risk every time we step out the door, and if our calculations yield different outputs, that doesn't mean any of us is doing it wrong. Maybe our calculations have different inputs, and the valuable thing to do is discuss them without blaming anyone but the perp.

Now, about your post, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about SA as part and parcel of my ROE's, but to an extent, setting your SA to an appropriate level is part of the game plan that sets up how the ROE's come into play. How aware do you feel you should be? Just like ROE's, I guess everyone will have their own answer, and I guess it depends on the situation. In my scenario, I wanted to enjoy some outdoor air and sunshine while I sipped coffee and read email. I chose a busy but not crowded coffee shop in a decent part of town (though in Miami you're never too far from a crappy neighborhood.) I deliberately chose not to sit by the sidewalk, with a couple of exit paths for myself in case of shenanigans. That's about it, though, in terms of my SOP for sitting in a restaurant/etc. I'm not willing to live with a much higher level of paranoia, in fact I thought it was a buddy who was playing a practical joke on me until I turned and saw the thief. As much as I like to prepare for the occasional asshole, my life is full of joy and wonder and that is usually where my head is at.

Now, consider: I'm not a small guy, and I'm fit enough to catch up with a 20yo punk running for his life. There were 20+ witnesses to the snatch. As I was giving the cops my info, they were clarifying things with dispatch and I learned that 10 minutes before my incident there was an identical laptop snatch at a coffee shop a few blocks away, with identical MO and perp descriptions. All of this to say that if I wasn't task-fixated on my email, I would probably have failed the victim selection process. But since reading email was the express purpose of my visit, I don't see how I could have avoided that particular risky behavior.

I would love to hear specific tips to increase my SA, but reading email in the outdoor patio of a popular cafe is a calculated risk that I am comfortable with. I will probably go to that same cafe at some point this week, and sit in the same spot. (Any buddy that plays a joke by yanking my laptop is liable to get an aggressive surprise. :mad: ) And while we all try to keep control of the situation by setting our SA and SOP's appropriately, I think we can all agree that at some point you may lose control of the situation anyway - at that point, it wold be, ah, advantageous to have a robust set of ROE's to guide your quick, adrenaline-drenched decision-making.

But what I'd really like to hear about are the theoretical ROE's that we decide on before an incident, and how the lessons from live incidents evolve those ROE's. For example, I bet SouthNarc evolved his ROE's and SA-type practices over time, even within the strict parameters of his job. Yet another reason to sign up for his classes...

[ezthumper]

I should have put a disclaimer on my last post:

Disclaimer: I am not a specialist, instructor or expert in way shape or form. Just confident in the fact of what I know, and as time marches on, I become more confident in the fact I know much less than I did the other day.


Totally agree about intent, opportunity and capability. Could you explain the above quote a little more? What control is lost when you draw? And what is the resource you mention?

Resource is your laptop, and the control is the fact Sumdood was already moving away from you with your laptop. You were in pursuit mode and Sumdood had control at that point. My "maybe" was based on what I would have possibly noticed if I was in that situation. In other words would I have been observant about my surroundings prior to the theft. Which might have given me more time to confront Sumdood and protect my resource and defend my self if it escalated.


However, it is only my view of a possible situation that I tried to put myself in, with out understanding the location, terrain, environmental effects (lighting, snow, rain etc.), how many people were around etc etc.

EDIT: I posted before reading your reply. You are giving a little more details, so I can form what I would see and what was there. I had a much different view of where you were......

[Zhurdan]

Ah, gotcha. Before I respond, let me vent a little bit about people (not you, I'm sure!) who can be prone to victim-blaming. All the risk inherent in that situation was of Sumdood's making. If he'd have pulled his revo and gotten shot, that's like saying he jumped off a cliff and broke his legs. I'm deeply offended by the common insinuation that a victim, acting in a legal and ethical manner to defend his life, limb and property, is in any way to blame for the terrible outcomes that sometimes result from the battle between order and chaos. And while I appreciate tips about improving SA, there's a certain level of paranoia I won't rise to. We all take a calculated risk every time we step out the door, and if our calculations yield different outputs, that doesn't mean any of us is doing it wrong. Maybe our calculations have different inputs, and the valuable thing to do is discuss them without blaming anyone but the perp.

Now, about your post, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about SA as part and parcel of my ROE's, but to an extent, setting your SA to an appropriate level is part of the game plan that sets up how the ROE's come into play. How aware do you feel you should be? Just like ROE's, I guess everyone will have their own answer, and I guess it depends on the situation. In my scenario, I wanted to enjoy some outdoor air and sunshine while I sipped coffee and read email. I chose a busy but not crowded coffee shop in a decent part of town (though in Miami you're never too far from a crappy neighborhood.) I deliberately chose not to sit by the sidewalk, with a couple of exit paths for myself in case of shenanigans. That's about it, though, in terms of my SOP for sitting in a restaurant/etc. I'm not willing to live with a much higher level of paranoia, in fact I thought it was a buddy who was playing a practical joke on me until I turned and saw the thief. As much as I like to prepare for the occasional asshole, my life is full of joy and wonder and that is usually where my head is at.

Now, consider: I'm not a small guy, and I'm fit enough to catch up with a 20yo punk running for his life. There were 20+ witnesses to the snatch. As I was giving the cops my info, they were clarifying things with dispatch and I learned that 10 minutes before my incident there was an identical laptop snatch at a coffee shop a few blocks away, with identical MO and perp descriptions. All of this to say that if I wasn't task-fixated on my email, I would probably have failed the victim selection process. But since reading email was the express purpose of my visit, I don't see how I could have avoided that particular risky behavior.

I would love to hear specific tips to increase my SA, but reading email in the outdoor patio of a popular cafe is a calculated risk that I am comfortable with. I will probably go to that same cafe at some point this week, and sit in the same spot. (Any buddy that plays a joke by yanking my laptop is liable to get an aggressive surprise. :mad: ) And while we all try to keep control of the situation by setting our SA and SOP's appropriately, I think we can all agree that at some point you may lose control of the situation anyway - at that point, it wold be, ah, advantageous to have a robust set of ROE's to guide your quick, adrenaline-drenched decision-making.

But what I'd really like to hear about are the theoretical ROE's that we decide on before an incident, and how the lessons from live incidents evolve those ROE's. For example, I bet SouthNarc evolved his ROE's and SA-type practices over time, even within the strict parameters of his job. Yet another reason to sign up for his classes...

Sorry if it came off a little condescending, that was most undoubtedly not my intent. I used to be a laptop toter and traveled quite a bit to different cities with different problems. My solution to that particular issue... "they call it a laptop for a reason", someone much wiser than I told me. Sit behind your table, with the best possible view, and put the laptop in your lap. That way you have at least 3 to 5 ft more stand off from people. Granted, this also lowers your eye level, so you need to keep your eyes moving.

I've had two incidents that required me to draw my pistol. Luckily, I never had to fire a shot. What happened drastically changed what I think is important in life and what isn't. I'll come back to this later as I have a dinner date with some friends in a little bit.

One thing though, is far removed from the everyday SA required to mitigate Sumdood's shenanigans in regards to laptops (work or personal). Security, backup, insurance. You want my laptop? Fine, take it, it's not worth even getting into a pissing match over. As soon as you closed the lid Mr. Sumdood, you just locked it. The information is backed up and it's insured. Ta ta. Sure, it sucks, but it's way cheaper than a lawyer and way less stress than eyeballing every passerby when you have work to do. ;-)

Off to dinner!

[MDS]

You want my laptop? Fine, take it, it's not worth even getting into a pissing match over.

Sweet, I happen to be in need of a new laptop... ;)

Seriously, though, that's fair, I can respect that. The laptop was no big loss, it's a brick without my token and I already have a new one. But - and this is a very personal decision - I'm tired of taking a mugging so passively. Maybe I'm getting ornery in my old age.

Looking forward to your stories. Keep your eyes peeled at dinner! ;)

[MDS]

Update: there's been an arrest. Folks at the cafe ID'd the same guys, in the same car, parked across the street. They activated 911, and the same beat cop who took my statement responded. Suspects fled, cop gave chase and caught one of them. I have few details, but I like the result so far.

...the more I learn and think about the issues surrounding self defense, the more I respect the job of everyday beat cops...

But what's applicable to my mindset is that my response did nothing to slow them down - it hasn't even been a week since my incident. Hell, maybe they were looking for me. Total self-centered speculation, of course. With any luck I'll learn more soon.

[MDS]

Bag of badgers? :)

I don't know about badgers, but my EDC includes an armadillo in my trousers... ;)

[David Armstrong]

I can appreciate that! Everyone has their own line in the sand, and it's clear where you've drawn yours. I've given this a lot of thought and I've concluded that I'm not willing to let folks walk all over my property rights. If I didn't have kids to come home to, my line in the sand would be a lot further up than it is, to the point where the thief would have had to give himself up or else forced me to defend my life. I hate that the criminal has all the power in most of the heists he pulls, and I wish that as a society we would make that career choice a lot more dangerous. In this particular story, I can hope that Sumdood will think twice about snatching laptops in the future...
I'm not necessarily fond if it either; to me it is a simple matter of economics. The loss of resources to me if I shoot the badguy (time, money, energy, etc.) is far more than the loss of resources if I let the BG take the property without shooting him. After a lot of experiences that is what it all boils down to FOR ME, a simple cost-benefit problem. When the choice is pay a $300 insurance deductable or pay a $20,000 lawyer bill, it strikes me as a simple choice. Others look at it differently, I realize, and I don't disagree with their position although I might argue with their reasoning. We all need to do what is comfortable.

[GJM]

Only half kidding, but my actions may have been heavily influenced by whether I had recently backed my laptop up.

[MDS]

Only half kidding, but my actions may have been heavily influenced by whether I had recently backed my laptop up.

Hehe. Backups MAY be the only thing I do more carefully than reholstering... ;)

As for the financial equations, I think your position is reasonable, even if I come to a different conclusion. I don't know if we'd disagree about the reasoning so much as the priorities. I won't use deadly force to protect property, but I won't stand by while I'm robbed. If the robber escalates from property theft to deadly force, then I'll react to that independently of the property theft. Does it create more risk for me? It certainly has the potential to do so. It's a risk I'm willing to accept, though, with eyes open....

[NETim]

I don't know about badgers, but my EDC includes an armadillo in my trousers... ;)

Rumor has it they're on tour again, but sadly they're lost beneath a stage in Cleveland.... again. :)

[Dropkick]

I really need to schedule an ECQC soon.

May 24-26 2013 Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC) in Culpeper, VA.
December 6-8 2013 Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC) in Copeland, FL
December 14-15 2013 Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS) in Americus, GA.

Just do it! :D

[sys_999]

Dropkick,

Not seeing the ECQC course you listed on Shivworks' website. Care to elaborate on where you found those dates?

Thanks!

[Dropkick]

Dropkick,

Not seeing the ECQC course you listed on Shivworks' website. Care to elaborate on where you found those dates?

Thanks!

They're on the schedule that Southnarc posts on the TPI Forums:
http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/index.php

[sys_999]

Thank you sir - just saw they are full-up though. Maybe next year!

[Dropkick]

Thank you sir - just saw they are full-up though. Maybe next year!

As far as I know, there aren't going to be any more dates/locations added, but there's a good chance you'd be able to register for an existing class on the 2013 schedule, or at the very least get on a wait list. Try getting in touch with the class point of contact. Hope that helps. :)

[SouthNarc]

Thank you sir - just saw they are full-up though. Maybe next year!

I know for a fact those three classes that DKM listed have plenty of slots left dude. Pick one and lock your deposit in if you want to.

[sys_999]

SN,

Misunderstood what you said on your TPI 2013 offering thread. Email sent to Craig.