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TGS
01-28-2013, 01:42 AM
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-9mm-soc-speer-le-gold-dot-124gr-gdhp-ammo/cName/9mm-hollow-point

What's funny is that I actually have a use for this, but it doesn't meet my depth nor time requirements.

:(

secondstoryguy
01-28-2013, 08:18 AM
Just the thing to put in your maritime spring-cup equipped Glock 17. I actually had a free diver/spearfishing buddy that carried a Glock 17 for sharks while spearfishing off Baja. Don't know how much good it would do against something the size of a Volkswagen but I suppose it's better than nothing.

CCT125US
01-28-2013, 08:26 AM
This might be a good option for someone who sweats heavily and would be concearned about contamination. For your application TGS, would a plastic bagged gun inserted carefully into the holster do the trick? I have used this method on a G26 when hot tubbing. Funny story.... the wife and I are hot tubbing in a isolated area. She asked in a snarky tone what would happen if sumdood with an axe came out of the woods after us? I just laughed and said we should be ok. She gave me the you have got to be kidding look.

TGS
01-28-2013, 12:31 PM
This might be a good option for someone who sweats heavily and would be concearned about contamination.

i.e. me if I move to Texas. I'm a cold weather creature by all accounts. I could stand living in Virginia, but I imagine Texas will be an adventure into a temperature spectrum I don't know.


For your application TGS, would a plastic bagged gun inserted carefully into the holster do the trick?

I don't think so. The pressure would still be a problem, not to mention weapons access would be iffy to say the least. It's not that I need submersible ammo, but when I'm cave diving in the land of meth & jesus a lot of our time on the surface is spent in our gear, which means I'm 1) disarmed and 2) the gun is locked up in the car. Between the occurrence of gators at some springs, and meth heads across the entire area, it'd be nice to still be armed when geared up on the surface, and not have to worry about my gun being stolen from the car when I'm in a dive. It'd be nice for those times when I'm not with 2 particular friends where the one will stay on the surface, armed, and we take turns diving/standing watch.

I want something that can do 3 hours submersion to 120 feet, with excursion capability down to 180 feet. Minimum. This ammo is weak sauce!


She gave me the you have got to be kidding look.

Hahahahaha! I love that look.

LHS
01-28-2013, 01:14 PM
Yeah, but you could set two personal records: For breath holding and number of sharks shot in the frickin' face!

Byron
01-28-2013, 02:10 PM
I want something that can do 3 hours submersion to 120 feet, with excursion capability down to 180 feet. Minimum.
I know it's no answer to your wants/needs, but I would find it fascinating if you ever decide to conduct your own test and publish the results.

For example, you could fill a (non-waterproof) pouch with various makes of ammo, then take it on your dive. Depending on how ambitious you were with the number of different loads carried, it would be good to have 3-5 rounds of each. And I imagine you're already wearing a weight belt, no? So as long as you remove an equivalent amount of weight from your weight belt, carrying the ammo won't even be of notice.

After your dive, see how many of the rounds can be fired, and if they suffer from any issues.

If there's any hesitation due to cost, I'd be happy to chip in towards a fund.

On a side note - what gas blend are you using?

TGS
01-28-2013, 02:47 PM
I know it's no answer to your wants/needs, but I would find it fascinating if you ever decide to conduct your own test and publish the results.

I'm game. With any luck I'll be in cave country come October, so it'll be a few months.


For example, you could fill a (non-waterproof) pouch with various makes of ammo, then take it on your dive. Depending on how ambitious you were with the number of different loads carried, it would be good to have 3-5 rounds of each. And I imagine you're already wearing a weight belt, no? So as long as you remove an equivalent amount of weight from your weight belt, carrying the ammo won't even be of notice.

No weight belt with the amount of gear we take. I've carried well over 500cuft of gas for some dives; ya know the standard AL80 cylinders that most recreational divers use? I've carried 3 of them under my arms as stage bottles, to give you an idea. With that being said, the weight from the ammo wouldn't be a problem as long as I don't plan on taking large sample sizes. :D


On a side note - what gas blend are you using?

When in Cave country, air for 120ft-180ft or nitrox above that. 32% is the standard down there and is stocked in large amounts (my preferred dive shop keeps 3 10,000cuft submarine ballast tanks full of 32%), and most of the caves just happen to be around 120-130 max so there's no point in spending money and time for a custom blend. I'll do short periods at 130ft using 32%, but I won't plan to make an entire bottom time on it as I prefer a lower working PO2 as some of the caves have some pretty severe flow where you literally can't swim, and have to pull yourself along the walls. When wreck diving off the east coast I'll go between 26% and 30% nitrox as the shorter decompression schedule compared to diving air can be a benefit in an emergency or if your suit leaks in cold water.

For decompression I almost exclusively use 100% O2, both for cave and off-shore wreck diving. For extended profiles I might include an AL80 of 50% if the conditions warrant it, but KISS applies. While tenable, there's a certain amount of risk involved in one handed gas switches during shitty conditions while ensuring you don't switch onto the wrong bottle :eek: More bottles = more problems as well. I've had shit ripped off of me (like argon bottles for my suit) while climbing the ladder in 6ft waves off Rhode Island.

Helium is too pricey for this cat. Most of the caves don't require it (unless you're a GUE protocol type guy), and there's only a few wrecks that I would like to dive past 180ft, so I haven't invested in it yet. When I make the jump to helium, I imagine I'll also buy into a Mk 15.5 rebreather. Fantastic machines. Way better than the Belgian foo-foo rEvo and Dive Rite Optima death machine that I've dove.

Byron
01-28-2013, 03:50 PM
I'm game. With any luck I'll be in cave country come October, so it'll be a few months.
Awesome! No matter when you do it, I'll be excited to read your results.

And thank you for the additional info on your diving gear.

It's been years since I've been diving, but I was previously certified as an Advanced Open Water Diver (from PADI), with some silly specialty add-ons. While I've checked out the exterior of a number of different wrecks (including a plane, which was cool), I've never gone inside one, nor ever been cave diving. The closest I've ever come to anything that could be called a "specialty" dive were a few night dives.

Diving is on my list of, "Things that I'd love to start doing again... I just don't know when."
If I ever again make it past the daydreaming phase, I'll have to hit you up with a PM; particularly since you'll have regional knowledge to share.

TGS
01-28-2013, 05:01 PM
Diving is on my list of, "Things that I'd love to start doing again... I just don't know when."

I'm kind of in the same phase right now. It just isn't feasible with what I'm doing right now....not to mention the costs have really gotten out of hand with fuel costs for boat rides. Cave diving is super cheap in comparison....I can spend 2-3 weeks in cave country and not break $2000 including travel and lodging....but just the annual maintenence of gear can be expensive when you're looking at 6+ regulators, 6+ cylinders, $800 lights with lithium batteries, and a drysuit. I'll be working lots of hours soon as I finish up my masters, so I'll hopefully have money to get back into it! I actually had sold my Subaru WRX STi and bought my current Outback simply so I could haul all my gear on road trips and sleep in the back like a vagabond....what a great life that was! Nothing beats covering yourself up with a tarp at rest stops hoping some deranged trucker chooses some other car occupants to make skin-suits out of.



If I ever again make it past the daydreaming phase, I'll have to hit you up with a PM; particularly since you'll have regional knowledge to share.

Please do! You have no idea how much I love diving. Underwater feels like home to me. Anything I can do to help, let me know. Or, if you just want to chat and share stories, believe me....I'll be more than happy. I'm trying to find a good video to drop here to excite you, but there's so many places I've loved that I can't really decide which one to share.

NEPAKevin
01-28-2013, 05:47 PM
I recall reading an account written by an RAF pilot who was shot down IIRC during WWII and had to deal with a shark what took an uncomfortable interest in the inflatable raft he was floating on. He shot the shark in the head with his service revolver and expended all the ammo he had to no avail and in desperation resorted to using it as a club. While not much better, by chance he stuck it someplace where there is a weak spot, either the nostril or the gills, and it decided to leave. I would guess that he had the same issue I was told about re. alligators in that you have to hit a reptilian size brain in large body moving through the water.

LHS
01-28-2013, 07:15 PM
I recall reading an account written by an RAF pilot who was shot down IIRC during WWII and had to deal with a shark what took an uncomfortable interest in the inflatable raft he was floating on. He shot the shark in the head with his service revolver and expended all the ammo he had to no avail and in desperation resorted to using it as a club. While not much better, by chance he stuck it someplace where there is a weak spot, either the nostril or the gills, and it decided to leave. I would guess that he had the same issue I was told about re. alligators in that you have to hit a reptilian size brain in large body moving through the water.

Given water resistance, how tough shark skin and muscle happens to be, and the rather anemic quality of the .38-200 British service round, I'm not surprised. Plus, as you said, it's a small target moving fairly quickly in the water.

Odin Bravo One
01-28-2013, 10:50 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/143539875_143038266fcf5525889b01290b597337657d784c 17202d960_zpsaf24266d.jpg

My "Shark Defense" tool of choice.

Much like sneakers in the woods for a bear attack.

It is best used to stab your dive buddy, and get yourself out of the water while he attracts said shark, and is now somewhat less mobile, hopefully buying you a few extra moments to get to the boat! The man in the gray suit is a pretty freaky dude to be hanging out with when surrounded by sea lions...........

As for ammunition.........I've never had any issues with quality ammo being diveable to reasonable depths, for reasonable periods. Is it going to be 2, 3 or 4 ATA diveable? Not likely. But we are dealing with the mechanics of cartridge construction versus the laws of physics. Most ammo was also not designed for deep dives, after all, gunpowder initiated projectile weapons have very little practical use or effectiveness underwater. A Singapore Sling would be far superior to a Glock at just about any depth.

Still, if being armed is important, and not being concerned with theft of the firearm while enjoying your bottom time, there is no reason not to dive the gun. The gun itself can handle it. A mag in a waterproof container with pressure release valve will protect the ammo and keep it serviceable, but you do give up the being "armed" at 120' since the ammunition will be stored separately. But if you want to be armed once you hit the surface, break out the mag at your last D stop, and load/make ready. (Not like you have anything else to do but maintain depth and stare at your watch!) Quality ammunition will withstand 1/2 ATA for a long time. I've run Federal +P HP's at just over 1 ATA for 3.5 hours and they functioned just fine within about 5 minutes of being on land.

jrm
01-28-2013, 11:04 PM
What prevents the hollow point from opening up in the water? If it does expand in route to the target I would think effective range would be close to zero I know it's already close to that with an fmj.

TGS
01-28-2013, 11:25 PM
Thankfully I haven't needed much shark protection. The thousands of sharks I've swam with off North Carolina have been pretty docile and friendly, given that anything other than Sand Tigers are pretty rare (only saw a hammerhead once). It's pretty cool, they'll come up next to you and swim with you, wondering who you are and what you're doing. You can even pet them.....sometimes they get spooked and bolt, but many of them are chill. Head down to Hatteras sometime and hook up with Capt JT Barker of the "Under Pressure." Get a ride to the Proteus, where there's 60-100 sharks any day of the week. They're on lots of wrecks down there, though. I imagine you've been to more varied climes than I with other sharks, though.

By any chance, you ever do any red team/opfor work with Dolphin security teams? I've heard those suckers hit like a lineman.



Still, if being armed is important, and not being concerned with theft of the firearm while enjoying your bottom time, there is no reason not to dive the gun. The gun itself can handle it. A mag in a waterproof container with pressure release valve will protect the ammo and keep it serviceable, but you do give up the being "armed" at 120' since the ammunition will be stored separately.

Yeah, it's not the idea of being armed at 120' that is important. More of having the firearm when most vulnerable, i.e. geared up on the surface when it would otherwise be locked in the car as you can't (or I would assume) take it with you due to ammo being ruined. During the dive it would preferably be out of the way stuffed/clipped securely in a cargo pocket.


But if you want to be armed once you hit the surface, break out the mag at your last D stop, and load/make ready. (Not like you have anything else to do but maintain depth and stare at your watch!)

What!? Way more important things. I've got more games than Milton Bradley for f'ing with my dive buddy on deco stops.

Actually, most the time I just turn out my lights and chill. Pretty serene until a catfish swims into your face.

NEPAKevin
01-29-2013, 01:51 PM
Given water resistance, how tough shark skin and muscle happens to be, and the rather anemic quality of the .38-200 British service round, I'm not surprised. Plus, as you said, it's a small target moving fairly quickly in the water.

Probably would have been better off using his gun like a bang stick so the pressure of the muzzle blast does the damage. OTOH, putting a limb with in range of the business end of an underwater killing machine is in direct conflict with several primal fears and is likely easier said than done.

Odin Bravo One
01-29-2013, 04:20 PM
By any chance, you ever do any red team/opfor work with Dolphin security teams? I've heard those suckers hit like a lineman.

.

From Southpark............

Stan: "Dolphins are intelligent and friendly"

Cartman: "Intelligent and friendly on rye bread, with some mayonaise".

Joe Mamma
01-29-2013, 08:38 PM
"The proprietary primer sealer is fluorescent under ultraviolet light."

I'm just curious. What's the purpose of this feature?

Joe Mamma

Joe in PNG
01-30-2013, 04:36 AM
Man, I miss diving. A number of years ago, when the exchange rate was 4 to $1 and there was a dive shop just down the coast, I would dive about every other weekend. 3 dives, with boat, guide, and full equipment for $75. And Madang has a rather nice mix of reefs and wrecks, including a B 25g.

Sadly, prices have gone up, and that dive shop is gone
And, um, waterproof bullets would be great here if I could only have a gun...

Odin Bravo One
01-30-2013, 01:57 PM
Never understood the fascination.............people PAY to do that?

No thanks.........

NEPAKevin
01-30-2013, 02:47 PM
Never understood the fascination.............


I blame Hollywood.


http://youtu.be/o70z5wzExMU

TGS
01-30-2013, 02:57 PM
YES.

Great movie.

Rich
01-30-2013, 06:35 PM
Given water resistance, how tough shark skin and muscle happens to be, and the rather anemic quality of the .38-200 British service round, I'm not surprised. Plus, as you said, it's a small target moving fairly quickly in the water.

before boating a shark I always shoot them. 9mm
actually after the fight they are kinda tierd and getting shot in the head kills them pretty fast. lemons,black tips,hammerheads,

And YES one time I shot the leader as the shark started to thrash.RRrrr!

BTW when I started reloading in the 90`s I asked my go to guy about using primer sealant and the black tar or lucas to seal the bullet. Like (LC M855)
He said I could but its a waste of time. So of coarse I loaded up some 9mm 124gr ball and sat it in water over night. the next day the loads fired off.

However If one was a diver or navy seal I could see needing it.

I was told by a winchester tech the primmer and bullet sealant are mainly used for long term storage.