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View Full Version : Knife skills, practice them! (TPD gun grab)



Shellback
01-21-2013, 10:00 AM
Tulsa, OK Police Officer was forced to shank a dude 5 times (http://www.newson6.com/story/20617711/tulsa-police-officer-stabs-suspect-trying-to-grab-his-gun) in order to stop him from trying to jack his heater. Video interview of TPD Officer Tyler Turnbough can be seen here (http://www.newson6.com/story/20627201/tpd-officer-talks-about-fighting-off-suspect-who-tried-to-steal-his-gun) describing the event.

This reinforces the need to practice a wide variety of skillsets and after just taking Chris Fry's Practical Knife Skills (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6118-Progressive-FORCE-MDTS-Small-Knife-Skills-Jan-2013-Las-Vegas) class this past weekend I'd highly recommend taking a recognized knife skills class.

JDM
01-21-2013, 10:22 AM
The knife, specifically the easily accessible fixed blade is a HUGE asset in a fight. In an entangled situation, I honestly think it's the most important weapon one can possess.

Good on this officer.

Shellback
01-21-2013, 01:04 PM
The knife, specifically the easily accessible fixed blade is a HUGE asset in a fight. In an entangled situation, I honestly think it's the most important weapon one can possess.

We ran through various force on force drills in that class with folding and fixed blade trainers and there's absolutely no way I would ever try to rely on a folder for any type of "oh $h!t" situation.

Al T.
01-21-2013, 01:15 PM
I think that's TPD223's lane. Wonder if he can comment (yet).

JHC
01-21-2013, 02:06 PM
He's Kansas not Oklahoma if that's what you meant.

Al T.
01-21-2013, 04:33 PM
Ah. Wrong "T".

SeriousStudent
01-21-2013, 09:23 PM
I am taking an edged weapons class from Steve Tarani next month, just for the reasons mentioned.

It's loads of fun to shoot carbines. But I usually have a pistol on me, and always have a knife, unless I'm in a courthouse or on an airplane.

Shawn.L
01-21-2013, 09:51 PM
On deploying a folder. It's been my experience in FoF that if one has enough control and the positional dominance to deploy a gun then a folder fits that window as well. But fixed blades allow us to "cheat" IFWA to a degree.

I'd be very interested to hear the details of the Tarani course once you complete it. I've always been very interested in training with him.

SeriousStudent
01-21-2013, 10:43 PM
.......

I'd be very interested to hear the details of the Tarani course once you complete it. I've always been very interested in training with him.

Thanks, I'm taking Pelican case full of knives, and all four of his books. I'm reading "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight" now, and will hopefully have finished the rest before class. It seems to be a better training experience for me if I can have some questions written down prior to attending.

It probably makes it bad for the instructor, though. "Jebus, will this guy ever stop with all the questions??? ;)

Cheap Shot
01-22-2013, 11:07 AM
Thanks, I'm taking Pelican case full of knives, and all four of his books. I'm reading "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight" now, and will hopefully have finished the rest before class. It seems to be a better training experience for me if I can have some questions written down prior to attending.

It probably makes it bad for the instructor, though. "Jebus, will this guy ever stop with all the questions??? ;)

+1 for an AAR of Steves class

What do you think of his books you've read?

What knives are you taking?

SeriousStudent
01-22-2013, 09:20 PM
I just started the "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight". I do like it a lot so far. It's got info regarding both pistol and knife skills. It's 270 pages, and I'm on page 60-ish. The material is presented very well - clearly and methodically.

What knives am I bringing...Um, all of them? I probably have 30 or so folders and maybe a couple of dozen fixed blades.

I'm going to try to just use a couple, the ones I EDC. For fixed blades, I have a ESEE Candiru in a Dark Star sheath. I may try a Busse Skeleton Key or a ScrapYard Street Scrapper 4 LE.

For folders, I have some waved Emersons and Spydercos. I'm got a Buck-Tarani 882 that I'll bring, just because of the instructor. But my EDC is usually a waved Emerson CQC-7 in my left rear pocket, and the Candiru at 12:00. But a lot of times I pocket carry a Spyderco Ronin in a custom pocket sheath. Man, so many blades, so little time. ;)

I feel like an idiot selling a waved Emerson Karambit last year. I told it because I nearly gave myself an unplanned appendectomy with it. Already got too much crochet work on my body as it is, but if I had known about this class, I would have kept it. I still have a karambit trainer though, that should help. Steve has a lot of material on karambits.

If anybody has a waved Spyderco Endura trainer to sell, let me know. I need a drone to go with the live blade.

I like the integration of weapons in his books. If I carry a gun, I always have a knife to cut someone off my gun. This book hopefully covers that.

Obviously, reading a book or watching videos is NOT a substitute for getting training. It's why I am so pumped about this class. I just like reading beforehand, to get better prepared as a student.

I will definitely do an AAR when we are done. I am planning on doing three HiTS classes this year - this edged weapons class, a shotgun class and their signature First Responder Pistol class.

You may want to reach out to Nyeti - he has done a lot of work with knives, and has one named after him.

Cheap Shot
01-23-2013, 07:18 AM
I just started the "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight". I do like it a lot so far. It's got info regarding both pistol and knife skills. It's 270 pages, and I'm on page 60-ish. The material is presented very well - clearly and methodically.

What knives am I bringing...Um, all of them? I probably have 30 or so folders and maybe a couple of dozen fixed blades.

I'm going to try to just use a couple, the ones I EDC. For fixed blades, I have a ESEE Candiru in a Dark Star sheath. I may try a Busse Skeleton Key or a ScrapYard Street Scrapper 4 LE.

For folders, I have some waved Emersons and Spydercos. I'm got a Buck-Tarani 882 that I'll bring, just because of the instructor. But my EDC is usually a waved Emerson CQC-7 in my left rear pocket, and the Candiru at 12:00. But a lot of times I pocket carry a Spyderco Ronin in a custom pocket sheath. Man, so many blades, so little time. ;)

I feel like an idiot selling a waved Emerson Karambit last year. I told it because I nearly gave myself an unplanned appendectomy with it. Already got too much crochet work on my body as it is, but if I had known about this class, I would have kept it. I still have a karambit trainer though, that should help. Steve has a lot of material on karambits.

If anybody has a waved Spyderco Endura trainer to sell, let me know. I need a drone to go with the live blade.

I like the integration of weapons in his books. If I carry a gun, I always have a knife to cut someone off my gun. This book hopefully covers that.

Obviously, reading a book or watching videos is NOT a substitute for getting training. It's why I am so pumped about this class. I just like reading beforehand, to get better prepared as a student.

I will definitely do an AAR when we are done. I am planning on doing three HiTS classes this year - this edged weapons class, a shotgun class and their signature First Responder Pistol class.

You may want to reach out to Nyeti - he has done a lot of work with knives, and has one named after him.

Great info, really appreciate it! I'm just starting on my journey learning about blades. Appreciate the heads up on nyeti.

Thanks again.

SeriousStudent
01-23-2013, 07:46 PM
No problem, I hoped I was coherent enough when I typed that, it had been a long day.

Another real big benefit to consider. How much ammo do you have to buy for a knife class? Um, none?

I deliberately switched my training plans for this year. I'm still doing four pistol classes, but I dropped my plans for some of the carbine classes. I'm only doing one carbine class, and not three.

Instead, I'm taking a shotgun class (still plenty of birdshot out there), an edged weapons class, and later this year a protective agent class. The last is because I am really big on avoiding trouble. And that is what a successful protective agent does - avoid trouble. And none of those classes require I spend a dollar a round on .223 ammo.

So you can also think of the OP's suggestion as also facing economic reality. No ammo does not need to mean no training, just work on other skills while you accumulate what ammo you need.

Dagga Boy
01-23-2013, 10:23 PM
You guys have no idea how thankful we are that our first big class this year is a knife class. Ammo is a REAL issue right now. Hopefully, people will take the opportunity to expand their edged weapon and hand to hand skillset.

jlw
01-23-2013, 11:14 PM
I like it!! Win the fight.

Panoply
01-25-2013, 10:09 AM
I am not law enforcement nor a veteran/active duty but I see no real usefulness for a knife if you already have a pistol. Why wouldn't you simply draw and use your pistol? Is it a type of thing where you're rolling around on the ground with an assailant? The odds of that happening to a regular citizen with a ccp are vanishingly small. Is this something JUST for law enforcement/active duty in theater soldiers? Can someone please explain this to me? POLITELY.

JM Campbell
01-25-2013, 10:18 AM
P;

In the event of an entangled engagement a knife is at times a means to keep retention of your holstered firearm and a means to inflict damage to fight back to your holstered firearm.

NickA
01-25-2013, 10:26 AM
I am not law enforcement nor a veteran/active duty but I see no real usefulness for a knife if you already have a pistol. Why wouldn't you simply draw and use your pistol? Is it a type of thing where you're rolling around on the ground with an assailant? The odds of that happening to a regular citizen with a ccp are vanishingly small. Is this something JUST for law enforcement/active duty in theater soldiers? Can someone please explain this to me? POLITELY.


P;

In the event of an entangled engagement a knife is at times a means to keep retention of your holstered firearm and a means to inflict damage to fight back to your holstered firearm.

Also, you may:
-not actually have your pistol (restricted environments, etc)
-have your pistol but not be able to access it, a la the aforementioned entanglement, or you're knocked flat on your back (or stomach), hemmed in by the environment (table, car door, etc)

Cookie Monster
01-25-2013, 10:37 AM
When issues get close or really close, they can end up having knife solutions, more than gun solutions.

Cookie Monster

cutter
01-25-2013, 10:43 AM
You guys have no idea how thankful we are that our first big class this year is a knife class. Ammo is a REAL issue right now. Hopefully, people will take the opportunity to expand their edged weapon and hand to hand skillset.

+1. Looks like I will not be able to make a LAV class next month because of the ammo panic.

jlw
01-25-2013, 02:38 PM
I am not law enforcement nor a veteran/active duty but I see no real usefulness for a knife if you already have a pistol. Why wouldn't you simply draw and use your pistol? Is it a type of thing where you're rolling around on the ground with an assailant? The odds of that happening to a regular citizen with a ccp are vanishingly small. Is this something JUST for law enforcement/active duty in theater soldiers? Can someone please explain this to me? POLITELY.

At contact distance, I would rather defend against a pistol than I would a knife.

Also, you use the knife to stop someone who is grabbing your gun.

JM Campbell
01-25-2013, 03:30 PM
+1. Looks like I will not be able to make a LAV class next month because of the ammo panic.

LAV is allowing training with suitable 22's pistol and rifle, don't let ammo availability stop your training.

TGS
01-25-2013, 04:05 PM
I am not law enforcement nor a veteran/active duty but I see no real usefulness for a knife if you already have a pistol. Why wouldn't you simply draw and use your pistol? Is it a type of thing where you're rolling around on the ground with an assailant? The odds of that happening to a regular citizen with a ccp are vanishingly small. Is this something JUST for law enforcement/active duty in theater soldiers? Can someone please explain this to me? POLITELY.

You, an armed citizen, are infinitely more likely to get into an entanglement and have an opportunity to use a knife than a soldier is. Soldiers usually have friends...lots of them....with lots of guns. We usually don't.

Everyone else already hit on the reasons to carry a knife. Keep in mind that pistols aren't death rays, and even filled with bullet holes your assailant could still tackle you and put on a hurtin' until he exsanguinates......and the chances of that are not a vanishingly small. Pistol employment can be complicated to impossible during an entanglement, and a knife makes sense. It's giving you another option, with little space or weight needed.

Finally, training is awesome. More training is always better. With that said, it doesn't take a whole lot of repetitive training to be dangerous with a knife when employed reverse grip, edge in (RGEI). I attended a FMA knife seminar that BaiHu hosted, and our class focused on reverse grip edge out. Being the curious one I am, I asked our instructor about RGEI. In summary, his response was, "that's some really sneaky, dirty stuff.....even by a FMA standard. When you see a person using RGEI, he either doesn't know what he's doing, or he really knows what he's doing. In either case, he's incredibly dangerous."

So, consider that along with the ammo shortage right now. It may not be feasible to shoot a lot right now......but you can still train on knives. And if for whatever reason you can't train on knives consistently, you're likely not to lose as much capability in its employment as you are with employing a pistol. RGEI is so intuitive (especially if you have any fighting background whatsoever), that IMO it is not as perishable a skill as pistol employment. Of course, this isn't an excuse to not train, but it is something to consider. Training in RGEI also gives you skills that transfer over to other weapons of opportunity....screw drivers, pens, ect.

Finally, you can usually take a knife more places than you can a gun.

Panoply
01-25-2013, 05:09 PM
All of that makes sense, though I'd not try for a knife if I were struggling for control of my firearm with someone. I have actually been stabbed in a fight. The man was trying to rob me and, being a bit drunk and unarmed (and 19) I told him something along the lines of what he could do with his knife. He slashed and jabbed at me, I don't know if he was seriously trying to cut me, and I tried to grab it and it went right through my hand. From the base of the palm straight up to the pinkie finger. Through and through. I still have no sensation on the flat of my right hand from the nerve being severed. Luckily for me, he ran once he saw he'd cut me. It was one of the major factors for me to get my permit at age 21. He could have killed my stupid, immature silly ass. I think situational awareness is probably THE most essential thing for safety. In the above incident, I was leaving a university bar (GO TIGERS!) catering to the grungy/hippy/nonfrat-sorority type of kids and cutting through a dark lot to my car. Drunk and paying no attention. If you know Baton Rouge it was Chimes street, about 4 blocks from what locals call 'The Bottoms,' a ghetto just outside the south gates of LSU with a murder a week. ZERO sense or situational awareness. God watches over...you know the rest.

Back to carrying a knife, how is it possible to carry an effective fixed blade? I've got a knife my father made me (he makes knives as one of his hobbies - canoes/kayaks/pirogues and bows, too. can u tell i'm proud o him? 67yo!) and a Kabar and that's it for my fixed blades. What is recommended and more important how carried?

Shellback
01-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Back to carrying a knife, how is it possible to carry an effective fixed blade? I've got a knife my father made me (he makes knives as one of his hobbies - canoes/kayaks/pirogues and bows, too. can u tell i'm proud o him? 67yo!) and a Kabar and that's it for my fixed blades. What is recommended and more important how carried?

Horizontal appendix carry, roughly 11 o'clock for me, is the preferred method of carry espoused by many who know more than me. Something along these lines, Google image, not me or mine.
http://frontsitepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/photo10.jpg

TGS
01-25-2013, 05:26 PM
He slashed and jabbed at me, I don't know if he was seriously trying to cut me, and I tried to grab it and it went right through my hand.

Nice!

And, just as a primer, know that some RGEI techniques feed off this tendency of people to block with their hands. When your assailant makes an attack at you with his knife, you instinctively throw up your hand/arm.....and instead of just getting a clean defensive wound from a jab, you now have your assailant clenching your appendage between his blade and wrist, while he drags it....making a terrible mess of your tissue, if not completely fileting your arm.

So, given your experiences, I'm sure you can see how much more effective a knife being used RGEI would have been than just pointing the sharp end at you...and ultimately, how viable a self-defense tool it becomes even with guns in the mix.

cutter
01-25-2013, 06:45 PM
LAV is allowing training with suitable 22's pistol and rifle, don't let ammo availability stop your training.

Good to know, but no 22 :( The UPS guy showed up with a partial order of 9mm from Natchez, and I'm not gonna risk the black ice going to the IDPA match tomorrow. So if I bring all my training ammo for my P30 and 1911, I have enough to squeak by.

SeriousStudent
01-26-2013, 01:36 AM
At contact distance, I would rather defend against a pistol than I would a knife.

Also, you use the knife to stop someone who is grabbing your gun.

This. If I'm at literal bad-breath range, I fear a knife worse than a pistol, from most bad people. I was not kidding when I said you can cut someone off your gun.

See also: Tueller Drill.

JodyH
01-27-2013, 03:00 PM
After Southnarcs ECQC I started filling the void that was my unarmed and contact weapons skill set.
Just lucky that my focus on non-firearm skills coincided with the ammo drought.
BJJ/MMA 3 nights a week, knife, sap and handgun dry fire practice at home 2 nights a week, 1 light range day a week (usually 50 rounds) and on the 7th day I rest and train my mind on the internet.
:cool:

Panoply
02-08-2013, 09:01 AM
I understand now why carrying a knife in addition to my 642 is a good idea. I appreciate the pic, too. Seems a good, discrete (and safe) way to carry it. Now I've gotta find a suitable knife. :)