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The Dreaming Tree
01-21-2013, 01:15 AM
So, I've been shooting regularly for about a year now, and believe I've come as far as possible without training (nowhere near perfect, just hit a plateau of "What am I doing wrong, now?!?"). I've decided to take a handgun class and have found three in my "area" this spring. My biggest issue is: which one do I take? My options are:

Larry Vickers Level-1 Handgun
Pat McNamara TAPS Pistol
Magpul Dynamics Dynamic Handgun I (I don't know who's teaching now).

I've been a member on here for a little bit, mostly lurking in the shadows, and am now looking for advice. All three are two day classes, fairly close in price, and equidistant from home. I've read multiple AARs from each of them, and have no idea what's best for me, though.

Thoughts?

Default.mp3
01-21-2013, 02:46 AM
IMHO, just pick which is the most convenient/cheapest for you and go with it. Or, the one that's least likely for you to see again. If you had consistently been taking classes with, say, Mr. Vickers, then yeah, it would make a lot of sense to branch out to other trainers just to see what else is out there, but since you've never had any real formal training, I don't think it really matters who you're choosing, since all three, as far as I know, are solid, reputable courses that have had positive feedback consistently. To me, this sounds something like trying to pick between a Colt, BCM, and a Daniel Defense for a first AR: yeah, there are differences, but for your first time, you won't really notice anything different, and all three would be solid picks regardless. It's not like you're trying to choose between TAPS, Combat Focus Shooting, and American Defense Enterprises' Combat Handgun I here.

DocGKR
01-21-2013, 03:58 AM
Pat McNamara is hard to beat--he will make you think and definitely challenge you. However, if you have never had any training, all will be a good addition to your knowledge base.

Mitchell, Esq.
01-21-2013, 07:22 AM
Southnarc.

Get a realistic idea of what a bad situation is, and then you can base your training on that premise.

Shellback
01-21-2013, 09:42 AM
Since you're in Las Vegas I would recommend Progressive FORCE Concepts (http://www.pfctraining.com/) for a local training outfit. I've taken a half dozen classes from them and will continue to do so. On March 23rd they have a Handgun 1 class (http://www.pfctraining.com/events/2013/03/las-vegas-nv/progressive-handgun-1-fighting-foundation) that I've attended and would recommend.

In fact I just attended Practical Knife Skills (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6118-Progressive-FORCE-MDTS-Small-Knife-Skills-Jan-2013-Las-Vegas) with Chris Fry at PFC this past weekend.

If you're interested I'll be hosting Southnarc here in Vegas in April. ECQC Vegas thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6010-Shivworks-Extreme-Close-Quarter-Concepts-April-2013-LAS-VEGAS).

jlw
01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
Establish a relationship with someone locally that you can trust and who can worth you to bring you forward from your current skill level.

cclaxton
01-21-2013, 10:47 AM
So, I've been shooting regularly for about a year now, and believe I've come as far as possible without training (nowhere near perfect, just hit a plateau of "What am I doing wrong, now?!?"). I've decided to take a handgun class and have found three in my "area" this spring. My biggest issue is: which one do I take? My options are:

Larry Vickers Level-1 Handgun
Pat McNamara TAPS Pistol
Magpul Dynamics Dynamic Handgun I (I don't know who's teaching now).

I've been a member on here for a little bit, mostly lurking in the shadows, and am now looking for advice. All three are two day classes, fairly close in price, and equidistant from home. I've read multiple AARs from each of them, and have no idea what's best for me, though.

Thoughts?
Your choice should also reflect the goal of your training. I think of them in three categories:
1) Concealed Carry;
2) Competition;
3) Fighting Tactics;

Since you are in Vegas, consider Frontsight for the Concealed Carry...their 4-day Handgun is excellent. They also provide really great lectures on legal and liability, etc.
For Competition you probably want to choose someone like Vogel or Anderson or Todd Green or a course designed to teach competition, such as USSA in Tulsa.
I don't know many of the fighting tactics trainers, but there are a lot of very good individual trainers and good businesses that do that kind of training.

I recommend starting with Concealed Carry training unless you know you want Competition or Fighting Tactics.

CC

Kevin B.
01-21-2013, 12:15 PM
Pat McNamara is hard to beat--he will make you think and definitely challenge you. However, if you have never had any training, all will be a good addition to your knowledge base.

Pat would be my first choice as well. LAV would be a close second. Either will provide you with a solid, practical skill set.

YVK
01-21-2013, 12:38 PM
If you're going to do this regularly, you'll be better of figuring your own system of class selection, rather than asking for recs on case by case basis.
Here is what I look at

- The instructor has to be or have been a student of a pistol himself. This means spending a lot of time of his own behind the gun. Coming from military or LE by itself doesn't cut it as it doesn't mean that he received a lot of training and needed to pass stringent competency standards. Using your examples, LAV and Mac are from a unit that probably spends more time with pistol than any mil unit, while not knowing who is teaching for MD makes it a nonstarter for me until I know.

- The instructor has to have a reputation of being able to teach.

- The last part is what CC alluded to - you need to know what is the curriculum and intended goals. I don't think Southnarc is going to make you shoot from 40 yards, and I don't think LAV has Craig's experience of real life concealed carry application.

Specific bullet point in regards to what's been mentioned above
- most former Delta guys will have you spend a lot (in relative sense) of time shooting slow at long distance, working out fundamentals. LAV spends more time than Mac on basic manipulations, Mac has some interesting drills. Both have a ton of knowledge. For a true starters class I'd take LAV, but Mac's class to me had a wider breadth of discussion and tasks. Both are money well spent.
- Todd's class has nothing to do with competition. In fact, I read a report of competitive shooter complaining that he didn't get much out of it for competition's sake. if you can meet the skill pre-reqs, I highly recommend it.
- If Ernest Langdon restarted teaching, I would recommend it without reservation.
The above recs are made on a basis of personal experiences, there are a couple of names that I am confident will be great too, but I've not trained with them myself. If you're interested in my personal non-recommendations, you can pm me.

GJM
01-21-2013, 12:53 PM
Lots of good choices mentioned previously, and I would add Manny Bragg and Robert Vogel to the list.

A one on one tutorial with Manny Bragg at Universal Shooting Academy in FL is the shooting equivalent of getting an all day head to toe physical.

David Armstrong
01-21-2013, 02:13 PM
My biggest issue is: which one do I take?
I would echo the advice from default.mp3: "just pick which is the most convenient/cheapest for you and go with it." ANY quality trainer should be able to provide you with a good, basic intro to the shooting world and address the "what am I doing wrong" issue. As others have mentioned, different instructors tend to focus on different issues or areas, but any of them should give a somewhat similar intro/basic shooting program.

Shellback
01-21-2013, 02:30 PM
I would echo the advice from default.mp3: "just pick which is the most convenient/cheapest for you and go with it." ANY quality trainer should be able to provide you with a good, basic intro to the shooting world and address the "what am I doing wrong" issue. As others have mentioned, different instructors tend to focus on different issues or areas, but any of them should give a somewhat similar intro/basic shooting program.

That's why I recommended PFC.

The Dreaming Tree
01-21-2013, 05:26 PM
Thanks guys. I've actually never heard of Progressive FORCE before, so I'm really glad to have posted it here. I love this place. I might be taking the Progressive Handgun 1 and 2 in March, now! Thanks!!!

cclaxton
01-21-2013, 06:07 PM
- Todd's class has nothing to do with competition. In fact, I read a report of competitive shooter complaining that he didn't get much out of it for competition's sake. if you can meet the skill pre-reqs, I highly recommend it.

I don't agree with this statement. I have taken Todd Greens' AFHF class, and three fellow IDPA shooters as well. We all found it very useful and helpful. Todd is a competitor as well. We had LE, IDPA competitors, and concealed carry guys in class and he covered the differences for each of us. I will say that my accuracy greatly improved after taking Todd's class...he is very big on accuracy, and for good reason.

Todd would say (and has said) that his class is not the only one a competitor/pistolier should take because not every master shoots exactly the same way. Each shooter has to work through their own weaknesses and find solutions to those weaknesses that will not become realized until he/she has taken a few different pistol training classes.

And, I would like to add that it's not just about gun-handling, but this has to include legal liabilities, critical decision-making under stress, being in compliance with federal and state and local laws, emergency gunshot treatment, and everything it takes to be well-trained and responsible pistolier.
CC

Al T.
01-21-2013, 06:15 PM
To borrow a phrase, "Just do it". :D

I was a late comer to the training arena and, sadly, I spent many years wasting time and ammo. I learned more in the first weekend than I would have imagined.

YVK
01-21-2013, 07:06 PM
A one on one tutorial with Manny Bragg at Universal Shooting Academy in FL is the shooting equivalent of getting an all day head to toe physical.

I am going to call and cancel my May one-on-one with him unless I received your full assurance that he deferred a rectal exam part.

Default.mp3
01-21-2013, 07:48 PM
- The instructor has to be or have been a student of a pistol himself. This means spending a lot of time of his own behind the gun. Coming from military or LE by itself doesn't cut it as it doesn't mean that he received a lot of training and needed to pass stringent competency standards. Using your examples, LAV and Mac are from a unit that probably spends more time with pistol than any mil unit, while not knowing who is teaching for MD makes it a nonstarter for me until I know.

IIRC, Steve Fisher is the primary instructor for MD these days:


Steve comes to Magpul with 15 years of law enforcement service in various roles, and continues to serve as a reserve officer with an agency in the southern United States as a firearms trainer for SWAT and patrol divisions.


Steve’s career as a trainer started in the 90's, first at NTFT and then later as the owner and lead trainer of MDFI, both Michigan based companies. He was responsible for the development of new programs and tactics for several local departments and new training curriculums based on low light, home defense and the use of the carbine, handgun and shotgun in various roles.


Steve is active in 2-Gun and 3-Gun competition on the local level, as well as in other competitive disciplines. Steve has been featured in SWAT Magazine and has written for both SWAT Magazine and Surefire Combat Tactics.


Over the years Steve has participated in numerous training programs from notable instructors in the industry as well as many local level schools, and stays active on both sides of the training industry. He is also an avid hunter and has a history in the outdoor/hunting television community as both a hunter and cameraman.


Steve’s knowledge and experience have been extremely significant in the curriculum revisions, and his ability to diagnose and correct student problems brings great value to his classes.

Just FYI. Not as sexy as being ex-CAG, but I've heard good things about Mr. Fisher in the various AARs on M4C and LF. Not sure how much impact it would have on an introductory course, but I do know some people care about such things.

JonEMTP
01-22-2013, 04:16 PM
Is FrontSight worthwhile training? The advertising seems overly pushy and that causes me significant pause.

Shellback
01-22-2013, 05:09 PM
Is FrontSight worthwhile training? The advertising seems overly pushy and that causes me significant pause.

Usually when they get mentioned there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth but I don't think it's really necessary. I'm definitely not one for their marketing techniques and I think there are better options to spend your money on from what I know of their training techniques. If you'd like some recommendations I'm sure one of our members knows of some good trainers in the PA area.

Drang
01-22-2013, 09:05 PM
Is FrontSight worthwhile training? The advertising seems overly pushy and that causes me significant pause.

I know several people who have been and they all seem to think it was worthwhile. There does seem to be a bit of "groupthink", but that's not universal, so maybe it's just the less experienced shooters amongst them.

Dagga Boy
01-22-2013, 09:09 PM
I can wholly endorse Steve Fisher and Jon Kunipe from Magpul Dynamics. They are both outstanding instructors with varied backgrounds to provide a well rounded delivery of material to their students.

gringop
01-22-2013, 10:55 PM
Does anyone know if Frontsight is still pushing Weaver as the one true way?


Gringop

SecondsCount
01-23-2013, 03:47 PM
Does anyone know if Frontsight is still pushing Weaver as the one true way?


Gringop

As of about 12 months ago they were still pushing Weaver. I was shooting with a guy early last year who had just taken their class and said that they kept correcting his isosceles stance.

DocGKR
01-23-2013, 09:39 PM
Steve Fisher and Jon Canipe from Magpul are OUTSTANDING!

Don't forget that Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs are also GREAT instructors...

SeriousStudent
01-23-2013, 11:02 PM
......

Don't forget that Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs are also GREAT instructors...

I have personally taken a class with those two gentlemen, and it was well worth the investment. I'm going to do at least two more classes with them this year. They can really teach, even an old pig-ignorant Philistine like me.


http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5967-AAR-%E2%80%93-Hardwired-Tactical-Shooting-%28HiTS%29-Basic-Pistol-Dallas-Texas-Nov-10-11-2012

Tamara
01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Just FYI. Not as sexy as being ex-CAG, but I've heard good things about Mr. Fisher in the various AARs on M4C and LF. Not sure how much impact it would have on an introductory course, but I do know some people care about such things.

Steve's a good trainer. I've seen him giving 101-level instruction to relative n00bs and (this is the embarrassing part where I tell on myself, because I wasn't near as good a shooter then as I thought I was) by the end of the afternoon they were all shooting as good or better than me, and I had been shooting pistol for years and years, but with very little formal training.

It was one of the defining moments (http://olegvolk.net/gallery/various/stevefisher/) that convinced me that maybe I needed to start getting serious about some formal gun skool.

cclaxton
01-24-2013, 05:09 PM
I know several people who have been and they all seem to think it was worthwhile. There does seem to be a bit of "groupthink", but that's not universal, so maybe it's just the less experienced shooters amongst them.

I attended the four day and I thought it was great. I only paid $69 for a four day handgun (Plus $50 one-time background check fee), so I thought it was a great value. Because I live in Virginia, I did have airfare, hotel, food, car rental, etc. But I was able to do the whole trip for under $900, not including ammo. If you live close enough to drive, it's an even better value.

Yes, they taught me Weaver, but I went back to regular Isosceles after the class. They teach it to be consistent for their teaching style...I don't think they would say it is the ONLY way to shoot.

But I would focus on the positive here. They provide a lot in four days:
about 800-1000 rounds over four days, so lots of live-fire practice;
excellent instructors...really some of the best;
They give individual corrections to grip, aim, stance, etc.;
They focus on safe gun-handling as well, and lots of reminders.

One of the best parts of their class is malfunction solutions. You practice every type...repeatedly, and under time pressure...and you are graded on how fast you can do a malfunction solution. Every time I have a malfunction in an IDPA match, I am thankful for how quickly I learned to resolve them....they are automatic now. The value of learning malfunction resolution alone was worth my time. But add to that the lectures on liability and tactics, threat assessment, etc. were really great as well. Plus, lots of drawing and shooting under time pressure at various distances. And, you are graded on how fast you draw and your accuracy.

If you are a seasoned competition shooter, it is not very valuable. But for those who need a great concealed carry class that teaches all the fundamentals, this is a perfect fit for that. Or, for those who are average/good shooters, but want to improve their concealed carry skills (drawing from holster, shooting at various distances outdoors, shooting under time pressure, reloading under time pressure, marksmanship under pressure, etc.) this is a great class to improve your skills and maybe cover some knowledge that is lacking. I had shot about 6 IDPA matches before I went to Frontsight and I found it very valuable. There were people in my class that had been there multiple times in an effort to improve. I would not take the 2-day class...just seems like it's not enough time to make it worthwhile.

I did not succumb to the lifetime membership sales pitches....as long as you can keep your credit card in your pocket, then you don't need to worry about the sales pitches. They don't try to sell you anything more except during lunch and you don't have to attend. I remember one pitch for gun safe's for example during lunch.

If you go, make sure you take long underwear...it gets cold in the desert in morning and evenings. And, have a good holster...one you don't have to hold open for reholstering and a good belt. You will draw hundreds of times...believe me.

CC

Al T.
01-24-2013, 06:25 PM
CC, thanks for the write up. I know a couple of guys who have gone to FS, but neither has any other classes to compare against.

YVK
01-24-2013, 07:41 PM
about 800-1000 rounds over four days, so lots of live-fire practice;

CC

Interesting report, CC. How was the class/drills structured that you felt 800-1000 over 4 days was lots of live fire? From my personal experience, 200-250 per full day of training is pretty low.

Cookie Monster
01-24-2013, 07:53 PM
Interesting report, CC. How was the class/drills structured that you felt 800-1000 over 4 days was lots of live fire? From my personal experience, 200-250 per full day of training is pretty low.


Because it is done two rounds at time, all day long. Except for headshots then one at a time.

C. Monster

cclaxton
01-24-2013, 08:30 PM
Interesting report, CC. How was the class/drills structured that you felt 800-1000 over 4 days was lots of live fire? From my personal experience, 200-250 per full day of training is pretty low.

There is a significant amount of instruction time, plus lecture time. Remember this is not competition training. This is assuming that you need to understand and develop the fundamentals. For instance, the instructor will talk about the topic, demonstrate, then have another instructor demonstrate. Then everyone goes to the firing line, and they get you to demonstrate without live rounds. You might hold your position or be given personal feedback. In my class they had a lead instructor and three regular instructors. They would go to each person and give corrections. Then you practice it dry fire style. Then you go hot, and do the drill. Then you unload, they review what you just learned, take questions and sometimes ask you to practice dry-fire again, then live fire again. That kinda depends on what they are teaching at the time.

Also, it builds up. The first day you don't shoot as much because they are teaching a lot of fundamentals. It builds and the third day you are shooting the most. Also, there are lectures, and frankly, it was good to have the lectures because shooting from a firing line in the desert sun/cold/heat can be physically demanding for someone who isn't used to it. They say 600 rounds, but you really need 800 rounds and I shot 1000.

I found the balance of instruction, lectures, dryfire and livefire very good, although some of the lectures were longer than necessary. At the end of each day you will be exhausted. Overall a very positive experience and, like I said, I appreciate the malfunction resolution every time I have one.
CC

Tamara
01-25-2013, 06:14 AM
Because it is done two rounds at time, all day long. Except for headshots then one at a time.

For serious? Is there a reason why given?

Dagga Boy
01-25-2013, 09:07 AM
While I won't comment on Frontsight (I know great instructors who have worked there, and also know of horror stories), I wouldn't base everything on round counts. There are classes where you shoot a TON. Which doesn't mean you are learning anything, and in many cases students are making mistakes that are getting really anchored by doing a lot of uncorrected repetitions. The most exhausting class I was ever in was a special class that Larry Vickers put on several years ago. 350 rounds in two days, and I was totally drained by the end as anything outside the 9 ring on a bull was a "miss" and every miss required you to unload, perform 5 perfect dry presses (which often took more than 5 to get five perfect ones) and then start all over. This was also done extensively on a timer. Shooting essentially nothing but 10 ring on a bull for two days on a timer is draining and you learn a lot. This class required the "right" students and couldn't be done with a large open class. Essentially, it comes down to what you are doing with the round count. I have also found as an instructor that many people who don't shoot a lot will hit a "wall" at some point, and I found you are doing more harm than good when you push students well past their wall. I'd rather have a student who can shoot 50 rounds using great fundamentals than a student who can slap the crap out of a trigger with poor sight usage and no follow through all day through a case of ammunition.

JM Campbell
01-25-2013, 09:31 AM
While I won't comment on Frontsight (I know great instructors who have worked there, and also know of horror stories), I wouldn't base everything on round counts. There are classes where you shoot a TON. Which doesn't mean you are learning anything, and in many cases students are making mistakes that are getting really anchored by doing a lot of uncorrected repetitions. The most exhausting class I was ever in was a special class that Larry Vickers put on several years ago. 350 rounds in two days, and I was totally drained by the end as anything outside the 9 ring on a bull was a "miss" and every miss required you to unload, perform 5 perfect dry presses (which often took more than 5 to get five perfect ones) and then start all over. This was also done extensively on a timer. Shooting essentially nothing but 10 ring on a bull for two days on a timer is draining and you learn a lot. This class required the "right" students and couldn't be done with a large open class. Essentially, it comes down to what you are doing with the round count. I have also found as an instructor that many people who don't shoot a lot will hit a "wall" at some point, and I found you are doing more harm than good when you push students well past their wall. I'd rather have a student who can shoot 50 rounds using great fundamentals than a student who can slap the crap out of a trigger with poor sight usage and no follow through all day through a case of ammunition.

And that's why you and Wayne are at the top of my short list and limited training budget.

NickA
01-25-2013, 09:46 AM
And that's why you and Wayne are at the top of my short list and limited training budget.

Same here. If I had a dollar for every outfit on this board that I want to train with... well, I'd have the money to train with them :D

Cookie Monster
01-25-2013, 11:16 AM
For serious? Is there a reason why given?


I was trying to be humorous. All the drills are done as "controlled pairs" and mostly under time or turning targets. Then moving distances or the such.

You also run all the malfunctions and reloads quite a bit. Everything is done purposely. So it keeps round counts down. They run with controlled pairs for a number of reasons, someone not me would be better explaining.

Been to Front Sight a bunch and had mostly very positive experiences, like Nyeti said, there are some amazing instructors out there doing it because they love it. I would recommend it for lots of people, not so much for some. Front Sight has their niche.

If anyone has specific questions, pm me. Lots of good training opportunities around Las Vegas.

Cookie Monster

Cacafuego
01-26-2013, 01:57 AM
Seems like any thread in which Front Sight is mentioned, becomes a Front Sight thread.

I'm a FS member. I've also trained with other nationally-known (not all necessarily nationally-loved) trainers. My last non-FS class was with Scott Reitz at ITTS, last May. My FS training has always stood me in good stead.

Something that everyone needs to remember is that virtually all the commentary about FS classes is about their basic handgun class. FS trains a LOT of people; on a busy spring weekend there'll be 1000+ students there. Many of those students will have limited shooting experience, and usually there will be some who are firing a gun for the very first time, and must be brought along slowly. In their more advanced classes (yes, you must take the basic class first; they're quite rigid about things like that) a lot of the doctrinaire stuff - controlled pairs, strict Weaver foot placement - goes out the window, and really even in the basic classes if you're getting your hits most rangemasters will leave you alone (they have their hands full with the newbies and spastics).

SeriousStudent
01-26-2013, 02:08 AM
..................... My last non-FS class was with Scott Reitz at ITTS, last May. ......

He's definitely on my list as well. I'm going to try and visit relatives in LA next year, and sneak in a class with him and/or Brett. I have really enjoyed reading his pistol book, a great deal of thinking went into it.

Tamara
01-26-2013, 09:49 AM
While I won't comment on Frontsight (I know great instructors who have worked there, and also know of horror stories), I wouldn't base everything on round counts. There are classes where you shoot a TON. Which doesn't mean you are learning anything, and in many cases students are making mistakes that are getting really anchored by doing a lot of uncorrected repetitions. ...<snip>... Essentially, it comes down to what you are doing with the round count. I have also found as an instructor that many people who don't shoot a lot will hit a "wall" at some point, and I found you are doing more harm than good when you push students well past their wall. I'd rather have a student who can shoot 50 rounds using great fundamentals than a student who can slap the crap out of a trigger with poor sight usage and no follow through all day through a case of ammunition.

This deserved to be said again.

There is a tendency in some circles to let "round count" serve as a barometer of the... "seriousness"? "hard-core-itude"? ...of a class, and it sometimes gets carried to an absurd extreme. One of my friends back in Tennessee was bringing in a traveling instructor, an internet guy with his own brand of point-shooting voodoo, and I was asked if I wanted to attend and warned "but it's a pretty intense class, plan on bringing two thousand rounds!"

"2k rounds? In a two day class? Hey, I'll let you do mag dumps into the berm from the hip all day for half what that guy is charging..." I passed on the invite.

I know that ToddG's classes, to pick an example most folks here can relate to, tend to get right up against my daily round limit. Twice now, on Sunday afternoons when the lesson plan was done and there's been time for running a few drills for fun, I've bowed out for fear that I'm about to stray into "reinforcing bad habits" territory. I like to leave shooting better on Sunday afternoon than I was on Saturday morning, and this lets me close the weekend on an upbeat note rather than blowing a drill or two out of tiredness.

My first two real handgun classes (the first, at least, since, like, '95) were night and day in the round count department: The first was a 3-day Todd Jarrett class at Blackwater that was sponsored by an ammo manufacturer who backed a Suburban stacked with cases of ammo up to the pistol bay and said "Help yourself!" and the second was YFA's Tactical Handgun I with Louis Himself up here at the Boone County range, and I fired maybe as much ammo over three days as I had on Saturday in North Cackalacky. Didn't learn any less, though.

Jay Cunningham
01-26-2013, 11:54 AM
It depends.

Some low round count classes are due more to lots of down-time (in the final analysis) than any other tangible reason.

Tamara
01-26-2013, 11:57 AM
It depends.

Some low round count classes are due more to lots of down-time (in the final analysis) than any other tangible reason.

I don't see any disagreement with that. As was said, round count alone, high or low, is not a measure of a class's utility.