This is NOT helping........ [Archive]

NETim

01-20-2013, 10:26 AM

Our club's main fund raising effort every year is our gun shows. Being a moderately responsible member, I like to help out manning the door. (Typical of most clubs, the overwhelming majority of the club membership is curiously absent when it comes time to help out.)

Anyway, I won't work the front door while the show is open. I've had far too many muzzles in my face over the years. I'll just get up at some un-Godly hour and provide security. It's safer.

I had one old gent, immensely proud of his heavily engraved Walther PPK, who just insisted in keeping it pointed at me despite my repeated efforts to physically push it off to the side in hopes he'd get the hint. He just didn't get it. :mad:

Damn male egos. Everybody's an expert. :mad:

JConn

01-20-2013, 12:08 PM

Exactly. I haven't been to a gun show in 12'ish years.

If you're looking for something other than beef jerkey and belt buckles, there are better places to go.

That is good beef jerky though.

David Armstrong

01-20-2013, 12:12 PM

Sometimes I think we are our own worst enemy in this debate.

A very accurate statement, one that we should think about more often.

LittleLebowski

01-20-2013, 02:23 PM

TGS

01-20-2013, 03:20 PM

It's a shame that wearing an AR across your back in public is viewed negatively, whereas in Switzerland.....arguably the worlds most civilized, stable, secure, well-to-do nation...it's just a normal, frequent thing to see.

JV_

01-20-2013, 03:25 PM

it's just a normal, frequent thing to see.In Switzerland, why are they doing it?

Are they doing it to make a point, or to show off, or is there another reason?

TGS

01-20-2013, 03:31 PM

In Switzerland, why are they doing it?

Are they doing it to make a point, or to show off, or is there another reason?

I'm not saying I agree with this dudes actions, or whether it's a good idea with which to promote the RKBA.

I was making a simple observation, and it shouldn't be taken as anything else.

BWT

01-20-2013, 03:52 PM

... They're looking for anything to paint gun owners in a bad light.

Period. Period. Anything that can make you look less qualified, less apt and more dangerous to yourself and others. Anything to increase doubt in private ownership to firearms.

For your safety("You should be trained before (enter X)"), for their safety ("That's dangerous and if it got in the wrong hands", "Not everyone's should be able to own a gun only certain people not (enter fringe elements), I mean right?"), for practicality ("Why do you need that?"), whatever train gets their point across is the one they will use.

Period.

Anything that can isolate and damage the image of Gun Owning Americans.

JV_

01-20-2013, 03:56 PM

I was making a simple observation, and it shouldn't be taken as anything else.I didn't take it for anything else, I asked a question.

TGS

01-20-2013, 04:13 PM

I didn't take it for anything else, I asked a question.

Swiss citizens serving in the militia are issued a SIG550 which they can keep at home. They're required to train with it, and enroute or returning from training it's acceptable to simply sling it instead of transporting it in a case. They even adopted the rifle with a folding stock to make it more convenient for citizens when having to stop for muesli on the way home from the range. A quick google search will show a plethora of pictures of such with Swiss citizens stopping at the shop'n'rob for something on the way home from practice, or a more idyllic picture of 2 girls riding their bicycles with SIG550s slung over their backs.

So, I thought it ironic that it's gotta be a radical statement to sling an evil black rifle in the open here because guns are so unacceptable to start with due to conceptions on what a true civilization should be......whereas in der Schweiz with all its civilized attributes (way more civilized than the UK or most countries, IMO), it's just another day and nothing out of the ordinary.

JConn

01-20-2013, 07:06 PM

In Switzerland they are not allowed to have ammo at home I believe. Only at the range. So we probably shouldn't use them as an example.

Haraise

01-20-2013, 07:29 PM

Neither is stuff like this. Going "shopping" with an AR slung with the muzzle flagging my toddler does nothing for anyone.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/photo-man-jc-penney-shopper-230414356.html

1268

Is your issue where his muzzle is pointed, or that he's open carrying?

Which you mean really changes things.

Shellback

01-20-2013, 07:54 PM

Some wingnut going haywire in Albuquerque and killing 5 people with an "assault weapon" (http://news.yahoo.com/five-shot-dead-albuquerque-teen-charged-192338159.html) doesn't help matters either.

SamuelBLong

01-20-2013, 08:02 PM

Some wingnut going haywire in Albuquerque and killing 5 people with an "assault weapon" (http://news.yahoo.com/five-shot-dead-albuquerque-teen-charged-192338159.html) doesn't help matters either.

Its the south valley. gotta love NM :confused:

We have a big problem with mental health out here.

LHS

01-20-2013, 08:57 PM

Its the south valley. gotta love NM :confused:

We have a big problem with mental health out here.

Is that the old southwest "war zone" near Kirtland? I remember that part of town being a real hole about a decade ago.

TGS

01-20-2013, 09:44 PM

In Switzerland they are not allowed to have ammo at home I believe. Only at the range. So we probably shouldn't use them as an example.

Switzerland has a bunch of gun laws, and in some ways is more restrictive than us. In any case, I wasn't trying to start a measuring competition on which country is more free or has more restrictive gun laws in order to use as an example. Like I said, it was just a simple observation that you can walk around town with an actual assault rifle in a civilized country such as Switzerland and it's not unusual, which is ironic given how many anti-gun people will give the punch line that "guns have no place in civilization."

But as for keeping ammunition in the home, 100% untrue.

Up until a few years ago they were issued 50 rounds to keep at home, only to be opened in times of mobilization. Most of these were collected back up simply as a cost saving measure. I believe government subsidized ammo used at field shoots must be used at the range, but Swiss citizens can still buy and posses most forms of ammo.

Drang

01-20-2013, 09:59 PM

In Switzerland they are not allowed to have ammo at home I believe. Only at the range. So we probably shouldn't use them as an example.

Source? Because every other cite I've sen says they are. After all, that surplus anti-=aircraft gun they let you buy isn't much good for defense of the Confederation if you have no ammo.

YVK

01-20-2013, 10:14 PM

Switzerland has a bunch of gun laws, and in some ways is more restrictive than us. In any case, I wasn't trying to start a measuring competition on which country is more free or has more restrictive gun laws in order to use as an example. Like I said, it was just a simple observation that you can walk around town with an actual assault rifle in a civilized country such as Switzerland and it's not unusual, which is ironic given how many anti-gun people will give the punch line that "guns have no place in civilization."

They are coming from a mandatory training which is a common occurrence. Same thing is in Israel, except I believe it is active duty personnel that's required to carry. Outside of training and duty service, I highly doubt that citizens of either of those countries drag their rifles with them to clothing stores just for the heck of it.

TGS

01-20-2013, 10:50 PM

They are coming from a mandatory training which is a common occurrence. Same thing is in Israel, except I believe it is active duty personnel that's required to carry. Outside of training and duty service, I highly doubt that citizens of either of those countries drag their rifles with them to clothing stores just for the heck of it.

And, that doesn't change anything about my observation, nor was I commenting on the ridiculousness vs righteousness of carrying a rifle into a store as a political statement.

SamuelBLong

01-21-2013, 12:27 AM

Is that the old southwest "war zone" near Kirtland? I remember that part of town being a real hole about a decade ago.

No, but that place is no bueno still, despite some clean up.

Tamara

01-21-2013, 08:25 AM

Some wingnut going haywire in Albuquerque and killing 5 people with an "assault weapon" (http://news.yahoo.com/five-shot-dead-albuquerque-teen-charged-192338159.html) doesn't help matters either.

Thankfully the media is too busy re-inauguratin' the Anointed One to notice. I heard a bunch of speculation about the FLOTUS's possible ball gown choices yesterday, but nothing about dead people in New Mexico.

Tamara

01-21-2013, 08:53 AM

Incidentally, my roommate called the local gun show the "ND 1500 (http://twowheeledmadwoman.blogspot.com/2013/01/nd-1500.html)". I wish I'd thought of that one... :D

cclaxton

01-21-2013, 11:56 AM

One of the Ranges that I shoot IDPA recently posted the Four Universal Rules of Gun Safety in every shooting bay and in the staging areas...all at eye level. They also review the Four Rules at every Safety Briefing. Everyone who owns a gun should have them memorized IMHO.

Maybe they should be posted in multiple locations at the entrance to gun shows in large letters, along with this in large red letters: Even if you already checked it, Recheck that your gun is unloaded before walking past this point:>>>

The one story that got to me is the Pennsylavania Dad who was trying to sell his handgun accidentally shot and killed his own 7yo son because he failed to verify there was no round in the chamber.

While you can't take the stupid out of people, you can do things to help them remember and develop muscle memory.
CC

JeffJ

01-21-2013, 04:27 PM

You know, I get the whole - I thought it was unloaded thing (it's still stupid and negligent, but I at least see where they have lack of training and really thought it was unloaded - I really thought I had my cell phone yesterday, but I didn't) But why do they pull the trigger? Do we really need to sit people down and tell them that pointing a gun at your kid and pulling the trigger is a bad idea?? For the love of all that is holy - seriously - I have a loaded gun shoved down the front of my pants all day, everyday and nobody gets shot because I don't pull the fu***ng trigger! You don't get do-overs with some things, people don't idle chainsaws and swing them around their loved ones heads with their fingers on the triggers -- you don't even have to come up with rules and teach them that!

OK, rant off - I know everyone here is on the same page as me - it just breaks my heart and infuriates me at the same time when kids are killed by completely avoidable acts of gross negligence.

cclaxton

01-21-2013, 06:14 PM

I really thought I had my cell phone yesterday, but I didn't.
I hate these kinds of comparisons. I pick up my cell phone and my loaded and locked carry gun every day and I consciously take care when I holster my handgun, making sure nothing is in the trigger guard and clothing out of the way and the safety is ON before I shove down into the holster.

When I pick up my cell phone I little attention to which orientation I put it into its carrier and do it more like I am putting change in my pocket.

They are very different and deserve different level of awareness.

CC

Tamara

01-21-2013, 10:04 PM

You know, I get the whole - I thought it was unloaded thing (it's still stupid and negligent, but I at least see where they have lack of training and really thought it was unloaded - I really thought I had my cell phone yesterday, but I didn't) But why do they pull the trigger?

We don't know that the guy in Indy pulled the trigger. He probably did, but it could have slam-fired when he dropped the slide, or a piece of his floppy IWB nylon sausage sack cheap-o holster could have gotten inside the trigger guard as he was using both hands to wriggle it into place...

Regardless of how it happened, I think we can all agree that one's hand is not a safe backstop. ;)

(Incidentally, I saw the meat wagon and my first thought was that somebody had keeled over in the entrance line due to being on their feet longer than they were used to. :o )

LittleLebowski

01-22-2013, 07:22 AM

Is your issue where his muzzle is pointed, or that he's open carrying?

Which you mean really changes things.

My issues are muzzle direction/orientation and the fact that this little act is not only indefensible as anything more than an ego exercise; it's also not going to win us any friends. It's silly and ignorant.

TCinVA

01-22-2013, 07:36 AM

Gun shows are an invitation to disaster because of their idiotic rules...like requiring everybody to unload every gun at the door. Sounds great, right? No loaded guns, no accidents!

This means people are pulling their carry heaters out of the holster and screwing around with them when the backstop is a bunch of people trying to beat the Obama ban. It's ludicrous. It would be enormously helpful if the outfit actually running the bloody gunshow would provide an area for handling weapons that kept any uh-oh's from going into a crowd of people. And maybe, you know, have people there who actually know how to handle a gun. I can understand not being sure on how you clear a Mauser C96, but some of the people they have working these things couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the bottom.

Not pointing guns at people isn't hard.

JV_

01-22-2013, 07:44 AM

Not pointing guns at people isn't hard.Every single gun shop I've been to has people pointing guns at other people, and I've never heard a salesman correct them.

cclaxton

01-22-2013, 10:47 AM

It would be enormously helpful if the outfit actually running the bloody gunshow would provide an area for handling weapons that kept any uh-oh's from going into a crowd of people. And maybe, you know, have people there who actually know how to handle a gun. I can understand not being sure on how you clear a Mauser C96, but some of the people they have working these things couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the bottom.

That is a great idea. Add to that prominent signs about the four universal gun safety rules, and that helps everyone be safer...even after they leave.

BTW, never pissed out of a boot before....is that some kind of military ritual?

CC

Tamara

01-22-2013, 10:58 AM

Every single gun shop I've been to has people pointing guns at other people, and I've never heard a salesman correct them.

That's on all of us. It absolutely needs to be completely socially acceptable to politely verbally call people on safety violations. Memes can propagate quickly in the gun culture, and "safety" needs to spread fast and far just like "zombie" did.

LHS

01-22-2013, 11:08 AM

That's on all of us. It absolutely needs to be completely socially acceptable to politely verbally call people on safety violations. Memes can propagate quickly in the gun culture, and "safety" needs to spread fast and far just like "zombie" did.

Perhaps someone with more photoshop sk1llz0rz than myself could come up with a suitable image, to which I could apply a pithy phrase or two?

Haraise

01-22-2013, 12:53 PM

...the fact that this little act is not only indefensible as anything more than an ego exercise; it's also not going to win us any friends. It's silly and ignorant.

And that is where I have an issue with your 'fact.'

As a tactical exercise, most everyone on here is recommended to conceal so no one would ever find out, not mention it, not wear gun or tactical gear... be a grey man.

Same on most other forums. You might give money to the NRA and send emails to senators, but the voting block is only associating firearms to bad guys, as they never see any good guys carry except the police. That 'stunt' doesn't need to win friends, it just needs to normalize the presence of guns. It might be silly and ignorant in execution, but the idea is the only one that continues a gun culture. A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

LHS

01-22-2013, 12:55 PM

And that is where I have an issue with your 'fact.'

As a tactical exercise, most everyone on here is recommended to conceal so no one would ever find out, not mention it, not wear gun or tactical gear... be a grey man.

Same on most other forums. You might give money to the NRA and send emails to senators, but the voting block is only associating firearms to bad guys, as they never see any good guys carry except the police. That 'stunt' doesn't need to win friends, it just needs to normalize the presence of guns. It might be silly and ignorant in execution, but the idea is the only one that continues a gun culture. A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

True, but these things need to be done incrementally, and for better or for worse, parading around with an AR slung across your back comes off as nutty right now. Reality is one thing, but perception is EVERYTHING. We need to shift perception without being perceived as extremists.

YVK

01-22-2013, 02:48 PM

It might be silly and ignorant in execution, but the idea is the only one that continues a gun culture. A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

Methinks that silly and ignorant executions will harm promotion of any noble and righteous idea, especially when coupled with, mildly put, questionable rhetoric by the executor. I personally think that this particular instance is a prime example of that.

TCinVA

01-22-2013, 03:09 PM

That 'stunt' doesn't need to win friends,

Winning a political fight is precisely about winning friends.

it just needs to normalize the presence of guns. It might be silly and ignorant in execution, but the idea is the only one that continues a gun culture. A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

You don't seem to understand the concept of the gray man.

The gray man isn't a pacifist. He simply fights smart. The gray man gives considerable thought to his tactics in an effort to bring about maximum effect.

Ever seen a street corner preacher yelling "WHORES!!!!" at women passing by on the street? Ever react to one by thinking "You know, this guy might have a point!" No?

Ya. There you go.

If you're interested in making converts, you do things differently than if you're interested in getting the people in the choir to crown you as having preached the most fiery sermon possible.

Even brave King Leonidas didn't fling his Spartans at the Persians just any ol' place.

The guy who fights stupid is masturbatory. He's doing something that feels good to him for a moment, but ultimately results in pointless effusion into the public that often results in disgust. The gray man is a seducer, and at the end of his work the seed has been planted and has a chance to grow.

In my life I'm a stark contrast to a guy who would reproduce what's in that picture. He's well known as a jerk by people who have sought me out for advice. His displays are more a function of his severe personality problems rather than a genuine interest in educating others...and that's why my phone is the one getting calls from people interested in getting into this gun stuff rather than his. Those who are calling don't see me as a social reject with a gun, and so they're actually receptive to what I have to say.

LittleLebowski

01-22-2013, 03:14 PM

And that is where I have an issue with your 'fact.'

As a tactical exercise, most everyone on here is recommended to conceal so no one would ever find out, not mention it, not wear gun or tactical gear... be a grey man.

Same on most other forums. You might give money to the NRA and send emails to senators, but the voting block is only associating firearms to bad guys, as they never see any good guys carry except the police. That 'stunt' doesn't need to win friends, it just needs to normalize the presence of guns. It might be silly and ignorant in execution, but the idea is the only one that continues a gun culture. A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

You might tell that to the CA open carry movement that promptly got UOC (unloaded open carry) banned in CA. I understand what you're saying but there's no way open carry is "helping" our cause. One's time would be better spent taking newbies shooting, writing letters, and so on. I know that's exactly opposite of what you wrote but I'm fine with civil disagreements ;)

cclaxton

01-22-2013, 05:03 PM

Winning a political fight is precisely about winning friends. You don't seem to understand the concept of the gray man.
The gray man isn't a pacifist. He simply fights smart. The gray man gives considerable thought to his tactics in an effort to bring about maximum effect.
Ever seen a street corner preacher yelling "WHORES!!!!" at women passing by on the street? Ever react to one by thinking "You know, this guy might have a point!" No?
Ya. There you go. If you're interested in making converts, you do things differently than if you're interested in getting the people in the choir to crown you as having preached the most fiery sermon possible. Even brave King Leonidas didn't fling his Spartans at the Persians just any ol' place. The guy who fights stupid is masturbatory. He's doing something that feels good to him for a moment, but ultimately results in pointless effusion into the public that often results in disgust. The gray man is a seducer, and at the end of his work the seed has been planted and has a chance to grow. In my life I'm a stark contrast to a guy who would reproduce what's in that picture. He's well known as a jerk by people who have sought me out for advice. His displays are more a function of his severe personality problems rather than a genuine interest in educating others...and that's why my phone is the one getting calls from people interested in getting into this gun stuff rather than his. Those who are calling don't see me as a social reject with a gun, and so they're actually receptive to what I have to say.

Agreed. This is the smart way to win people over. Also, there are a lot of Democratic Gun Owners who can help, and yes, they do exist in substantial numbers. More importantly, they can be advocates who can get just enough Democratic representatives to vote NO on gun control legislation.

CC

Bigguy

01-23-2013, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by TCinVA
Winning a political fight is precisely about winning friends. You don't seem to understand the concept of the gray man.
The gray man isn't a pacifist. He simply fights smart. The gray man gives considerable thought to his tactics in an effort to bring about maximum effect.
Ever seen a street corner preacher yelling "WHORES!!!!" at women passing by on the street? Ever react to one by thinking "You know, this guy might have a point!" No?
Ya. There you go. If you're interested in making converts, you do things differently than if you're interested in getting the people in the choir to crown you as having preached the most fiery sermon possible. Even brave King Leonidas didn't fling his Spartans at the Persians just any ol' place. The guy who fights stupid is masturbatory. He's doing something that feels good to him for a moment, but ultimately results in pointless effusion into the public that often results in disgust. The gray man is a seducer, and at the end of his work the seed has been planted and has a chance to grow. In my life I'm a stark contrast to a guy who would reproduce what's in that picture. He's well known as a jerk by people who have sought me out for advice. His displays are more a function of his severe personality problems rather than a genuine interest in educating others...and that's why my phone is the one getting calls from people interested in getting into this gun stuff rather than his. Those who are calling don't see me as a social reject with a gun, and so they're actually receptive to what I have to say.
Agreed. This is the smart way to win people over. Also, there are a lot of Democratic Gun Owners who can help, and yes, they do exist in substantial numbers. More importantly, they can be advocates who can get just enough Democratic representatives to vote NO on gun control legislation.
CC

http://www.guywheatley.com/gifs/iagree.gif
I just can not agree enough. I'm a just left of center Democrat (though honestly, that's is changing) who is fully on board with protecting the 2A. I've written letters to all of my representatives and the White House. I will not support a far left agenda. There are elections coming up in 2014, and as things stand, I won't be much of an asset the the Democratic party. In fact, I will be voting for and verbally support Republican candidates. We need to make those folks understand there will be a political price for the present course of action.
Link to site with Democratic U.S.Senators up for re-election in 2014 (http://ivn.us/2012/11/10/20-democratic-us-senators-face-re-election-in-2014/) A bunch of rabid, radical right dogs baying at the moon won't change anything. Making the more centrist Dems understand that their centrist supporters will vote for Republicans who more accurately represent their political ideas will. And we may have to make that point by sending some of the home in 2014.

JMS

01-23-2013, 01:09 PM

A gun culture of grey men hiding guns from everyone is only going to increase being marginalized.

A mainstream gun culture of ornate-T-shirt-wearing halfwits that deliberately cede initiative to the bad guys under a misguided concept of "showing the flag," and do so in a careless and unsafe manner, is at least equally undesirable.

SecondsCount

01-23-2013, 02:56 PM

Agreed. This is the smart way to win people over. Also, there are a lot of Democratic Gun Owners who can help, and yes, they do exist in substantial numbers. More importantly, they can be advocates who can get just enough Democratic representatives to vote NO on gun control legislation.

CC

Enough already. The Democratic party if full of people trying to trample on our gun rights at the moment so I have very little respect for those that vote for them.

TGS

01-23-2013, 03:45 PM

Enough already. The Democratic party if full of people trying to trample on our gun rights at the moment so I have very little respect for those that vote for them.

This has been my experience with Democrats (capital D) who own guns. They're mostly in the group of thinking that the 2nd Amendment is outdated, and would rather have a system set up for the privileged hunter ala most European countries. Or, another I knew who had a Beretta .25 which he used for his dirty work as a union thug, had asked me one time about how awesome life would have been as a Russian peasant working the fields all day long because of the pure simplicity of life.

LHS

01-23-2013, 03:50 PM

Enough already. The Democratic party if full of people trying to trample on our gun rights at the moment so I have very little respect for those that vote for them.

Politicians vote for what will get them elected. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get enough Democrats to realize that going after our gun rights is a bad political move, that we can further marginalize the antis? Just because someone has a D in front of their name doesn't automatically make them anti-gun, any more than an R makes them pro-gun. I would prefer to have solid majorities of BOTH camps backing us.