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WDW
01-18-2013, 07:37 AM
I was watching a vid of the new Colt rifles for 2013 & a lot of their guns have " crown Protectors" as opposed to flash suppressors. I think it's great that companies like Colt & Magpul are already prepared for impending restrictions & are thinking outside the box to get around it best they can. To be honest, I could give a shit about flash suppression. The only reason I want that feature is to protect the crown of my muzzle. Colt has some cool new guns coming out this year. Can't wait!!!

Tamara
01-18-2013, 07:51 AM
To be honest, I could give a shit about flash suppression.

Yeah? Well, when I was stationed in Gha Dang down in the Weeshlong Delta, we cared about flash suppression a lot. Especially when we were laying ambushes on the Pho Nee Mahn trail...

(Every time some civvie-oriented site or magazine does a flash hider effectiveness comparison, I have to shake my head and wonder "How is this ever going to apply to anything I am likely to use my carbine for?" Why not rank them on important factors, like how cool they look on the end of my gun, which one comes with the coolest manufacturer's logo stickers, and which one will inspire the most approving nods and make me look 'switched on' to my fellow MOLLE-encrusted students at my next carbine class?)

orionz06
01-18-2013, 08:05 AM
I like flash suppressors and find most compensators annoying as hell and more often than not inconsiderate in the environments I shoot in. About the same as the asshole neighbor revving the piss outta his Harley at 3am before he goes to work. Calling it something new doesnt make it any better, unless we call it a Louderator, maybe then naming it by its function might Makenit easier to handle.

NETim
01-18-2013, 08:28 AM
Yeah? Well, when I was stationed in Gha Dang down in the Weeshlong Delta, we cared about flash suppression a lot. Especially when we were laying ambushes on the Pho Nee Mahn trail...

(Every time some civvie-oriented site or magazine does a flash hider effectiveness comparison, I have to shake my head and wonder "How is this ever going to apply to anything I am likely to use my carbine for?" Why not rank them on important factors, like how cool they look on the end of my gun, which one comes with the coolest manufacturer's logo stickers, and which one will inspire the most approving nods and make me look 'switched on' to my fellow MOLLE-encrusted students at my next carbine class?)

Deployed off the coast of Kaosoland on the USS Larjanslo we needed 'em badly in the Battle of Bol Shet Bay back in '78. Can't say anymore. It's still classified (and probably always will be.) But it was there that we learned the value of being "switched on."

Thanks for the laugh. :)

WDW
01-18-2013, 03:36 PM
Yeah? Well, when I was stationed in Gha Dang down in the Weeshlong Delta, we cared about flash suppression a lot. Especially when we were laying ambushes on the Pho Nee Mahn trail...

(Every time some civvie-oriented site or magazine does a flash hider effectiveness comparison, I have to shake my head and wonder "How is this ever going to apply to anything I am likely to use my carbine for?" Why not rank them on important factors, like how cool they look on the end of my gun, which one comes with the coolest manufacturer's logo stickers, and which one will inspire the most approving nods and make me look 'switched on' to my fellow MOLLE-encrusted students at my next carbine class?)

No way!!! You were at Weeshlong too!?! Hahaha

Jay Cunningham
01-18-2013, 04:41 PM
Flash hiders are *really* good ideas on defensive rifles.

WDW
01-18-2013, 04:47 PM
Flash hiders are *really* good ideas on defensive rifles.

I'm not saying otherwise, but 99.9% of my AR use is gonna be at the range or yote hunting, so for me personally what I need the flash hider for is to protect the crown of my muzzle. If they end up banning that feature, I'm glad Colt is thinking ahead to at least have something on the muzzle.

Kyle Reese
01-18-2013, 05:21 PM
I'm not saying otherwise, but 99.9% of my AR use is gonna be at the range or yote hunting, so for me personally what I need the flash hider for is to protect the crown of my muzzle. If they end up banning that feature, I'm glad Colt is thinking ahead to at least have something on the muzzle.

Ever crank off a 5.56 from a weapon w/o muzzle device in low light?

Suvorov
01-18-2013, 05:25 PM
Ever crank off a 5.56 from a weapons w/o muzzle device in low light?

Quite a few times from my Mini14 with its 18 inch barrel. The results are often quite spectacular!

But I do understand where the OP is coming from.

In the Byzantine maze which is Kalifornia's gun law, I have settled on Battle Comps for rifle configurations where I have to get rid of the flash suppressor/hider. They seem to be the best compromise as long as you are willing to spend the $$$.

JDM
01-18-2013, 05:25 PM
Ever crank off a 5.56 from a weapons w/o muzzle device in low light?

Yes. It's quite spectacular. Especially from a shorter than 20" gun.

Flash hiders are kind of important.

Haraise
01-18-2013, 05:31 PM
Yes. It's quite spectacular. Especially from a shorter than 20" gun.

Flash hiders are kind of important.

Luckily we have the battlecomp, or Bravo's new BC competition.

Still though. 99.99% of any shooting for a gun owner (here) will likely be at the range, but I would imagine that a lot of the point for most people is that possible one time it might not be. That .01% is suddenly really important.

JDM
01-18-2013, 05:37 PM
Luckily we have the battlecomp, or Bravo's new BC competition.

Still though. 99.99% of any shooting for a gun owner (here) will likely be at the range, but I would imagine that a lot of the point for most people is that possible one time it might not be. That .01% is suddenly really important.

Concur 100%

WDW
01-18-2013, 05:40 PM
Ever crank off a 5.56 from a weapon w/o muzzle device in low light?

Yes. I know. I believe y'all. The 5.56 is a loud & flashy round. I'm just saying, we won't have those if they ban them. In which case, I'm glad my muzzle will still have some protection.

orionz06
01-18-2013, 05:45 PM
Luckily we have the battlecomp, or Bravo's new BC competition.

Still though. 99.99% of any shooting for a gun owner (here) will likely be at the range, but I would imagine that a lot of the point for most people is that possible one time it might not be. That .01% is suddenly really important.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5042/5250106218_a464d94d25_b.jpg

Tamara
01-18-2013, 06:19 PM
Flash hiders are *really* good ideas on defensive rifles.

...because between the centrally-controlled lights in my house and the squillion-lumen light on my carbine, that muzzle flash is going to TOTALLY $%%^& up my night vision. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Of course, maybe the batteries in the light on my carbine are dead and maybe the zombies have chewed through the power drop to my house and maybe I should worry about whether the lightning rod in my beret is properly grounded in case I have to shoot the home invader during a thunderstorm...

Tamara
01-18-2013, 06:24 PM
Ever crank off a 5.56 from a weapon w/o muzzle device in low light?

Yes.

TGS
01-18-2013, 06:44 PM
In the Byzantine maze which is Kalifornia's gun law, I have settled on Battle Comps for rifle configurations where I have to get rid of the flash suppressor/hider. They seem to be the best compromise as long as you are willing to spend the $$$.

Ditto, I've got a pinned BCE 1.5 personally, as a flash hider or threaded barrel which is capable of accepting one is on the limited "pick two of the following" evil features list here.

Just to smooth things over for customers in ban states with their FSC556, PWS even sends a letter from ATF stating that it is not a flash hider. So, to ban flash hiders is stupid, but it's certainly not the end of the world. Take an A2 birdcage and put a closed front on it....BAM! Now it's a compensator and legal...

Tamara
01-18-2013, 07:12 PM
Take an A2 birdcage and put a closed front on it....BAM! Now it's a compensator and legal...

Back in the early 'Aughties, we actually kept a couple of shot-out barrels we'd use to slice chunks off of to silver solder into flash hiders for just this purpose.

TGS
01-18-2013, 07:21 PM
Back in the early 'Aughties, we actually kept a couple of shot-out barrels we'd use to slice chunks off of to silver solder into flash hiders for just this purpose.

Now that's smart. American ingenuity!

Tamara
01-18-2013, 08:32 PM
I will add that if the main reason you have a carbine in the house is to lay night ambushes for blue-helmeted invaders in the dark from the topiaries along the bicycle paths down the block, then you definitely don't want your muzzle flash to mess up your night vision. Heck, I have flash hiders on both my carbines just in case I have to do this very thing.

On the other hand, if you're going to use it to shoot some dude in your upstairs hallway with the Cookie Monster night light in the wall socket, a 40-watt bulb left running in the computer room down the hall and a 200+ lumen SureStreamFireLight clamped to your carbine's quad-rail, then maybe this should be about thirty-seventh on your list of Important Things To Worry About On Your Carbine.

Disclaimer: I have never jumped out of a helicopter with a knife in my teeth.


EDITED TO ADD: Odd how few shorty HD shotguns have flash hiders... Well, except for all those ghey new Mossenbergers with the "standoff devices" in case you need to breach the fridge door to get another pint of Cherry Garcia...

Jay Cunningham
01-18-2013, 10:43 PM
...because between the centrally-controlled lights in my house and the squillion-lumen light on my carbine, that muzzle flash is going to TOTALLY $%%^& up my night vision. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Of course, maybe the batteries in the light on my carbine are dead and maybe the zombies have chewed through the power drop to my house and maybe I should worry about whether the lightning rod in my beret is properly grounded in case I have to shoot the home invader during a thunderstorm...

A really good reason to have a defensive long gun is for civil emergencies. Quite often the power is out during civil emergencies, or the civil emergency caused the power to go out. You may not have power to light your lights. Your weapon-mounted light, regardless of lumens, tend to be very discriminatory by throwing the overwhelming majority of its light forward. Muzzle flash is omnidirectional.

A mil-spec USGI A2 FH costs about $8.00, so I really don't know why one wouldn't have one mounted on their defensive rifle. Bare muzzles throw off a huge fireball, brakes and comps are obnoxious and largely superfluous unless you are a very high-level carbinero indeed. Suppressors are a great idea, but of course they have their own downsides.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Haraise
01-18-2013, 11:05 PM
EDITED TO ADD: Odd how few shorty HD shotguns have flash hiders... Well, except for all those ghey new Mossenbergers with the "standoff devices" in case you need to breach the fridge door to get another pint of Cherry Garcia...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3361/3226483091_d8e7e41cbb.jpg

Kyle Reese
01-18-2013, 11:18 PM
A really good reason to have a defensive long gun is for civil emergencies. Quite often the power is out during civil emergencies, or the civil emergency caused the power to go out. You may not have power to light your lights. Your weapon-mounted light, regardless of lumens, tend to be very discriminatory by throwing the overwhelming majority of its light forward. Muzzle flash is omnidirectional.

A mil-spec USGI A2 FH costs about $8.00, so I really don't know why one wouldn't have one mounted on their defensive rifle. Bare muzzles throw off a huge fireball, brakes and comps are obnoxious and largely superfluous unless you are a very high-level carbinero indeed. Suppressors are a great idea, but of course they have their own downsides.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Excellent observation and spot on.

Suvorov
01-19-2013, 02:20 AM
Ditto, I've got a pinned BCE 1.5 personally, as a flash hider or threaded barrel which is capable of accepting one is on the limited "pick two of the following" evil features list here.

Just to smooth things over for customers in ban states with their FSC556, PWS even sends a letter from ATF stating that it is not a flash hider. So, to ban flash hiders is stupid, but it's certainly not the end of the world. Take an A2 birdcage and put a closed front on it....BAM! Now it's a compensator and legal...

Of course the funny thing is that according to the military technical manual for the M16A2, the now infamous birdcage is referred to as a compensator. So this begs the question if the government could successfully argue you had a flash suppressor on your rifle when their own publications deem it a comp. NOT THAT I WOULD EVER WANT TO TRY IT!

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f32/wyorca/Firearms/CompPg1.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f32/wyorca/Firearms/CompPg2.jpg

rob_s
01-19-2013, 05:37 AM
I really don't know why one wouldn't have one mounted on their defensive rifle.

Because then how would one engage in pithy postings on the interwebs?

Tamara
01-19-2013, 07:00 AM
A really good reason to have a defensive long gun is for civil emergencies. Quite often the power is out during civil emergencies, or the civil emergency caused the power to go out. You may not have power to light your lights. Your weapon-mounted light, regardless of lumens, tend to be very discriminatory by throwing the overwhelming majority of its light forward. Muzzle flash is omnidirectional.

A mil-spec USGI A2 FH costs about $8.00, so I really don't know why one wouldn't have one mounted on their defensive rifle. Bare muzzles throw off a huge fireball, brakes and comps are obnoxious and largely superfluous unless you are a very high-level carbinero indeed. Suppressors are a great idea, but of course they have their own downsides.

This is true, and I don't disagree, in that I have flash hiders on my guns. I suppose I just get a little exercised on the topic because if I had a dollar for every pixel wasted in internet debate over whether the Flashmaster 5000 disrupted muzzleblast more efficiently than the Cyclone IX, complete with a dozen grainy jpegs taken on some bubba's backyard range, I'd use my profits to pay off the national debt and then retire to a private Caribbean island. With an A2 birdcage. (Actually, if I had all that money I'd buy a Vortex, because they look cool and I think it's neat the way they ring like a tuning fork when you flick them with your fingernail.)

Tamara
01-19-2013, 07:05 AM
Of course the funny thing is that according to the military technical manual for the M16A2, the now infamous birdcage is referred to as a compensator. So this begs the question if the government could successfully argue you had a flash suppressor on your rifle when their own publications deem it a comp. NOT THAT I WOULD EVER WANT TO TRY IT!

Depends on how your state agency defines a flash hider vs. a brake. IIRC, the working definition used by the BATFEIEIO during the bad old days was having an opening on the end larger than the bore diameter, which was why AK slant brakes were deemed flash hiders and therefore a no-go.

SeriousStudent
01-19-2013, 12:34 PM
I run a Smith Enterprises Vortex on my social guns. They are effective for what they are designed to do, and not very expensive. I'm not running a can just yet. When I do, I'll likely switch them out.

It's probably my lousy ancient guy hearing, but I never get a ping on mine.

It was relatively cheap to pick up a Vortex a couple of years ago, when everyone switched to BatleComps. I think I paid about $30 apiece for mine.

G60
01-19-2013, 04:18 PM
Complying with a law is not exploiting a loophole.

Suvorov
01-19-2013, 05:36 PM
Depends on how your state agency defines a flash hider vs. a brake. IIRC, the working definition used by the BATFEIEIO during the bad old days was having an opening on the end larger than the bore diameter, which was why AK slant brakes were deemed flash hiders and therefore a no-go.

Interesting to know. It appears that the CAL BOF doesn't really have anything more defined that this, and they go by the diameter of the exit end. Thanks.

WDW
01-19-2013, 05:45 PM
Complying with a law is not exploiting a loophole.

The purpose of the ban is to have NOTHING on your gun. So instead of doing that, Colt is at least giving the customer something that complies with the specific wording of the law instead of just shipping out a gun with nothing on the muzzle end.

Tamara
01-19-2013, 07:13 PM
Complying with a law is not exploiting a loophole.

Word.

Byron
01-21-2013, 11:37 AM
I think it's dangerous for us to assume that future attempts at legislation will offer the same "loopholes" (or whatever you want to call them) as past legislation.

For example, many in this thread are mentioning specific models of Brake/Comp ABC/XYZ which would be legal under a new AWB since it's not a flash hider. Says who?

Granted, NY is an extreme example, but they are the only working example we have so far. The legislation that recently passed in NY considers comps and muzzle brakes (or "breaks" as they call them), just as offensive as flash hiders:


S 37. Subdivision 22 of section 265.00 of the penal law, as added by
chapter 189 of the laws of 2000, is amended to read as follows:
22. "Assault weapon" means
...
(A) A SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE THAT HAS AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE
MAGAZINE AND HAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERISTICS
...
(VI) A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, MUZZLE COMPENSATOR, OR THREADED
BARREL DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, OR
MUZZLE COMPENSATOR;

Just because muzzle device ABC/XYZ was legal during the last AWB is no guarantee that it would be legal under any future legislation, as NY just learned the hard way.

Given this, it seems that much of this discussion becomes... well... academic at best... time-wasting at worst. We don't yet know what shape future legislation may take, but we should throw out our old models: brakes and comps are no longer being ignored by anti-gun legislators.

LOKNLOD
01-21-2013, 11:55 AM
I think it's dangerous for us to assume that future attempts at legislation will offer the same "loopholes" (or whatever you want to call them) as past legislation.

Bingo. We've been openly derisive about how stupid and ineffective the previous bans have been, it's very short-sighted for us not to assume they've been listening. The next ban may very well be as effective as they'd like...

BWT
01-21-2013, 01:15 PM
Complying with a law is not exploiting a loophole.

Amen! Gunshow loophole is actually just the law as it stands and as it was intended. What's really a loophole is destroying the 2nd Amendment through the Commerce Clause. Or restricting things from ownership via the commerce clause. That was an in intended consequence. So maybe it should be called the Gun Control Loophole?

David Armstrong
01-21-2013, 02:25 PM
A mil-spec USGI A2 FH costs about $8.00, so I really don't know why one wouldn't have one mounted on their defensive rifle. Bare muzzles throw off a huge fireball, brakes and comps are obnoxious and largely superfluous unless you are a very high-level carbinero indeed. Suppressors are a great idea, but of course they have their own downsides.

+1. During the last unpleasantness I got hold of a bare muzzle AR, and the difference between it and my old model was fairly noticeable. One of the areas I found the most troubling was shooting prone, where the bare muzzzle blew up a LOT more dust and junk. Not a big deal for fun and games but a bit of a hassle for quick follow-ups on critters.

Tamara
01-22-2013, 07:25 AM
During the last unpleasantness I got hold of a bare muzzle AR

Back in late '04, when bare-muzzle barrels were going for a song, I was toying with putting together a 16" upper in .223 Winchester Super Silly Magnum, just because. :D

orionz06
01-22-2013, 07:50 AM
Back in late '04, when bare-muzzle barrels were going for a song, I was toying with putting together a 16" upper in .223 Winchester Super Silly Magnum, just because. :D

Go to the range and practice transitions to your 357 Sig. Perfect range trolling combo. Plus stopping powah.

Tamara
01-22-2013, 07:55 AM
Go to the range and practice transitions to your 357 Sig. Perfect range trolling combo. Plus stopping powah.

When I was done screwing around with it, I could recoup some of my costs by marketing it as a great flash-bang substitute for the Tinytown PD SWAT team on a budget; just poke the muzzle through the mail slot and crank off a round at random.

(Never saw the .223WSSM fired out of a carbine, but it was stupid loud out of even a 20" varmint tube...)

LHS
01-23-2013, 12:07 AM
Go to the range and practice transitions to your 357 Sig. Perfect range trolling combo. Plus stopping powah.

It's all about the Taurus Raging Hornet for indoor range obnoxiousness.