Conroe, Tx dashcam video-officer involved shooting

[KeeFus]

This has been a topic of diiscussion @ our roll call the past two mornings. Just passing along the information the video provides as it may pertain to other LEO's/Military/Contractors that visit this site. Video is about 4 minutes long but I think there are some obvious training points (good and/or bad) that can be learned from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMiuFTOKV4c&feature=related

[JodyH]

I'm sure years of liability based conflict resolution training is what failed this officer.
He didn't have a mental "line in the sand" for using deadly force.
The switch from negotiation to aggression was never tripped, and my guess is that switch was never discussed in his training.

For department liability reasons of course...

[Bill Lance]

Speechles....

[JDM]

I cannot, for the life of me, think of a good reason as to why the shit bag was not filled up with holes the moment he leveled that scattergun at the officer.

That was pretty frustrating to watch.

[KeeFus]

You are correct, his switch never got flipped. He states in the video before he ever puts the car in park that the guy is armed. Then tells him ~16 times to drop the damn weapon. FRUSTRATING to watch!!!

[jlw]

I'm sure years of liability based conflict resolution training is what failed this officer.
He didn't have a mental "line in the sand" for using deadly force.
The switch from negotiation to aggression was never tripped, and my guess is that switch was never discussed in his training.

For department liability reasons of course...


AMEN!!

Hesitation is also the manifestation of what happens when peace officers that are clearly justified in the use of deadly force as if they have done something wrong.

[Prdator]

Do we now the status of the officer that was shot?

So much wrong here, Im sure the officer did not leave the house that day thinking he Might have to fight for his life!! And no clear decision point on when that "fight" needed to start.

[JDM]

Do we now the status of the officer that was shot?

So much wrong here, Im sure the officer did not leave the house that day thinking he Might have to fight for his life!! And no clear decision point on when that "fight" needed to start.

In the description of the video he is described as stable but supposed to lose an eye.

[jlw]

Here is another one:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80434174/

This one will make your blood boil. I showed it to my Sheriff. He immediately grabbed every supervisor at hand and showed them this video and lit a fire in their tails. He also ordered that this video be shown to every sworn peace office in our agency, and either he or I were present for each group imparting our philosophy.

If you aren't breeding trust, you are teaching failure.

[TCinVA]

Placing myself in the shoes of the officer, I'd have been concerned about the background. Who was behind those windows if I light this guy up with my pistol at longer than typical pistol distance. If I have a carbine its probably not instantly accessible or that can't be deployed without authorization from a supervisor.

The officer has also probably been in other situations where lethal force was authorized by the circumstances and yet it wasn't used.

[jlw]

Placing myself in the shoes of the officer, I'd have been concerned about the background. Who was behind those windows if I light this guy up with my pistol at longer than typical pistol distance. If I have a carbine its probably not instantly accessible or that can't be deployed without authorization from a supervisor.

The officer has also probably been in other situations where lethal force was authorized by the circumstances and yet it wasn't used.

I think he did say something about people in the background, and it is hard, for me at least, to judge distance from a video, how long can you let somebody point a gun at you? Could not one of the other responding officers grabbed a carbine in support, presuming they have carbines.

ETA:

I just caught the part about having to have supervisor approval to deploy a carbine. If there is that much distrust between personnel and management I submit that the agency is completely dysfunctional. That type of thinking gets your personnel killed.

[KeeFus]

Do we now the status of the officer that was shot?

So much wrong here, Im sure the officer did not leave the house that day thinking he Might have to fight for his life!! And no clear decision point on when that "fight" needed to start.

In another video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQWjgk4V3k&feature=related) I have found the officer is giving an interview. He is wearing an eye patch on his right eye...which he lost. In regards to the "no clear decision..." IMHO, the fight needed to start as soon as he exited his car. The suspect was aiming a shotgun at him from the moment he arrived. I know that the buckshot we carry (Federal Tactical 00buck) still has a pretty tight group @ 25 yards...this incident was reportedly @ 20 yards.

In the video, the Sgt says that they had received a call from the bakery about the guy with the gun...so the folks INSIDE the bakery knew the guy was there and should have sought cover elsewhere inside the business....away from the glass.

[JodyH]

If I have a carbine its probably not instantly accessible or that can't be deployed without authorization from a supervisor.
= dead officers in the name of political correctness and "liability".

Either you trust your officers judgement in the use of carbines or you don't issue them period.
"Mother may I" breeds indecision and that results in videos like the one posted.

If you're issued a carbine and it isn't instantly accessible and isn't your first choice when responding to a man with a gun call... your department needs an overhaul of policies and procedures.

[David]

Given the storefronts in the background and the lousy position he and his car ended up in if this officer would have started to fire before the nutcase fired first and ended up hitting and or killing someone inside those shops then this thread would be about how stupid he was. I refuse to judge him from the safety of my keyboard.

[JodyH]

I refuse to judge him from the safety of my keyboard.
Nobody is judging the officer.
And if you refuse to participate in dissecting incidents such as this, the officers blood was spilled for nothing.
Mistakes were made and failing to acknowledge that (with the benefit of 20/20 video taped hindsight) is failing to learn anything from this situation and setting future officers up to make the exact same mistakes.
I'm sure the officer did the best he could with the training he had.
The point of discussions like this one is to discover where the training failed and what can be done in the future so the next officer responding to a call like this doesn't lose an eye or his life.

[David]

Nobody is judging the officer.
And if you refuse to participate in dissecting incidents such as this, the officers blood was spilled for nothing.
Mistakes were made and failing to acknowledge that (with the benefit of 20/20 video taped hindsight) is failing to learn anything from this situation and setting future officers up to make the exact same mistakes.
I'm sure the officer did the best he could with the training he had.
The point of discussions like this one is to discover where the training failed and what can be done in the future so the next officer responding to a call like this doesn't lose an eye or his life.

I don't think he spilled his blood for our education. It was an aligning of the planets in the universe of fruit-loop. Everything which could have been wrong was wrong and he was stuck in trying to sort it out.

[JodyH]

I don't think he spilled his blood for our education. It was an aligning of the planets in the universe of fruit-loop. Everything which could have been wrong was wrong and he was stuck in trying to sort it out.
ALL blood that's spilled should be a teachable moment.
There are lessons to be learned from every incident.

[David]

ALL blood that's spilled should be a teachable moment.
There are lessons to be learned from every incident.

Just as those in the backseat learn from those in the front seat? You can teach someone how to handle the car but that training can't be applied to every road.

[John Ralston]

I think the point is to try and learn SOMETHING from the event, not get in a pissing match over it.

[David]

I think the point is to try and learn SOMETHING from the event, not get in a pissing match over it.

Who's pissing? We're discussing. Isn't that the whole concept of a discussion board? To discuss?

[peterb]

Common themes I see are failing to use the available options for movement and for cover/concealment. Sitting in a stationary vehicle behind a sheet of glass is not a good place to be.

[TCinVA]

I just caught the part about having to have supervisor approval to deploy a carbine. If there is that much distrust between personnel and management I submit that the agency is completely dysfunctional.

Supervisor level approval before an officer can pull out a long gun on a call is, believe it or not, fairly common. Dysfunctional? Sure...but remember that the biggest fear many police administrators have is officers hurting themselves or others with something like a patrol carbine. Many officers riding around out there with a patrol carbine do not have much training on the weapon and those that aren't "gun" people (meaning their interaction with firearms is the minimum necessary to keep their job) have a whopping few hours of in service and a 10 round qual on the weapon.

So train the officers better?

Well, sure...but with what money? You can spend X dollars on training, but that's X dollars you can't spend on another K9 unit, on forensics training for some of your investigators, etc.

Gunfighting is, generally speaking, pretty low on most PD lists of priorities because gunfights aren't what they do on a regular basis. Beyond that, officers who had every justification to use lethal force are often commended for exercising "restraint" when they didn't pull the trigger. I've certainly heard of instances where officers were disciplined for failing to use lethal force but I don't know of many. Discipline for using too much force is more common than discipline for using too little.

All of those factors have an impact on the outcomes of these sorts of events.

[jlw]

Supervisor level approval before an officer can pull out a long gun on a call is, believe it or not, fairly common. Dysfunctional? Sure...but remember that the biggest fear many police administrators have is officers hurting themselves or others with something like a patrol carbine. Many officers riding around out there with a patrol carbine do not have much training on the weapon and those that aren't "gun" people (meaning their interaction with firearms is the minimum necessary to keep their job) have a whopping few hours of in service and a 10 round qual on the weapon.

So train the officers better?

Well, sure...but with what money? You can spend X dollars on training, but that's X dollars you can't spend on another K9 unit, on forensics training for some of your investigators, etc.

Gunfighting is, generally speaking, pretty low on most PD lists of priorities because gunfights aren't what they do on a regular basis. Beyond that, officers who had every justification to use lethal force are often commended for exercising "restraint" when they didn't pull the trigger. I've certainly heard of instances where officers were disciplined for failing to use lethal force but I don't know of many. Discipline for using too much force is more common than discipline for using too little.

All of those factors have an impact on the outcomes of these sorts of events.

I am the Chief Deputy of a Sheriff's Office in Northeast Georgia. I am well aware of budget constraints, but I am also well aware of how to set priorities in training. I'm also well aware that second guessing every move our personnel make breeds hesitation, and that putting conditions in place such as a requirement to get supervisor notification prior to pulling putting a carbine/shotgun into action puts our personnel and the public at risk.

If I can't trust a deputy to know when to pull out a carbine or shotgun, I need to be in the Sheriff's office submitting a recommendation for that deputy's termination.

I started out working at a university PD. Even there we could put a carbine/shotgun into action if the situation called for it.

Breed trust. Breed confidence. Breed good decision making. In other words, LEAD.

[JodyH]

Indecision leads to more attacks on officers because they lose their first line of defense (presence).
There was an interview with imprisoned cop killers that went into detail on this subject.

No matter what training an officer receives it should always emphasize decisive command and control.

These lessons aren't just for LEO's either.
When criminals are selecting victims they are looking for the easy target.
The person who walks with a purpose, is heads up aware and looks to be in control will not be a prime target.

Back to the video.
The officers indecisive repeating of the same command encouraged the offender.
You can see his body language change as he realized HE was in control.
There was a subtle shift in his posture and aggression level that coincided with the officers less forceful commands.

[jlw]

Indecision leads to more attacks on officers because they lose their first line of defense (presence).
There was an interview with imprisoned cop killers that went into detail on this subject.

No matter what training an officer receives it should always emphasize decisive command and control.


Agreed!!

"The worst calamities that befall an army arise from hesitation."

--Sun Tsu in The Art of War

[TCinVA]

Breed trust. Breed confidence. Breed good decision making. In other words, LEAD.

Your deputies are lucky to have that kind of mindset in the management of their department.

I wish it was a universal trait...sadly, though, it is not.

[VolGrad]

Your deputies are lucky to have that kind of mindset in the management of their department.
They are lucky. The Chief and the Sheriff give their guys the support and resources they need to get the job done. They don't get in the way either but allow them the freedom to make decisions.

[jlw]

Your deputies are lucky to have that kind of mindset in the management of their department.

I wish it was a universal trait...sadly, though, it is not.

I used to work in an environment that wasn't so supportive. It wasn't necessarily the administration. Rather it was a combination of a number of things.

When I became a supervisor there, I stressed a three rule appraisal:

1- Stay within the law and the Constitution.
2- Stay within policy.
3- Behave in a professional manner.

I promised my guys that as long as they did those three things that they would be safe, but a violation of any one of those would lead to me not being able to protect them. I dealt with those situations where they didn't hold up there end of the bargain. I lived up to my end, and my people flourished. More promotions came out of that group of officers than the rest of the agency combined.

Just because the overall environment doesn't promote it doesn't mean that you can't promote it among your shift.

Rank doesn't matter. Informal leaders can have just as much or more impact in an agency or on a shift as the formal leaders can have.

Lead up.

[Wheeler]

Here is another one:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80434174/

This one will make your blood boil. I showed it to my Sheriff. He immediately grabbed every supervisor at hand and showed them this video and lit a fire in their tails. He also ordered that this video be shown to every sworn peace office in our agency, and either he or I were present for each group imparting our philosophy.

If you aren't breeding trust, you are teaching failure.

The most distressing part of that video is you could hear the trooper's breathing rattling in the background, it sounded like he was lung shot and they were filling up fast. There is absolutely no reason that should taken as long as it did to get medical aid to him. The LEO's were trying to get the shooter to put down his rifle, the medics wouldn't approach until the scene was secured, (another policy) and meanwhile, that trooper died in his car, probably thinking the whole time "I thought help had arrived?"

I realize that Law Enforcement is different that the GPMFI, but that entire scenario shows poor leadership and a poor command decision process with the responding officers.

No offense to any of the LEO's anywhere but I'm so glad that I changed my mind about becoming a police officer when I got out of the green machine. Knowing that there are bureauocrats that are willing to let the gals and guys at the sharp pointy end of things die rather than face a lawsuit, or bad press.

Wheeler

[Wheeler]

I used to work in an environment that wasn't so supportive. It wasn't necessarily the administration. Rather it was a combination of a number of things.

When I became a supervisor there, I stressed a three rule appraisal:

1- Stay within the law and the Constitution.
2- Stay within policy.
3- Behave in a professional manner.

I promised my guys that as long as they did those three things that they would be safe, but a violation of any one of those would lead to me not being able to protect them. I dealt with those situations where they didn't hold up there end of the bargain. I lived up to my end, and my people flourished. More promotions came out of that group of officers than the rest of the agency combined.

Just because the overall environment doesn't promote it doesn't mean that you can't promote it among your shift.

Rank doesn't matter. Informal leaders can have just as much or more impact in an agency or on a shift as the formal leaders can have.

Lead up.

I was in your county today. I made sure that I wore a hat and sunglasses and hoped noone would recognize me.

:)

[David]

Here is another one:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80434174/

This one will make your blood boil. I showed it to my Sheriff. He immediately grabbed every supervisor at hand and showed them this video and lit a fire in their tails. He also ordered that this video be shown to every sworn peace office in our agency, and either he or I were present for each group imparting our philosophy.

If you aren't breeding trust, you are teaching failure.


Here is his page: http://www.odmp.org/officer/15433-trooper-randall-wade-vetter

[jlw]

The most distressing part of that video is you could hear the trooper's breathing rattling in the background, it sounded like he was lung shot and they were filling up fast. There is absolutely no reason that should taken as long as it did to get medical aid to him. The LEO's were trying to get the shooter to put down his rifle, the medics wouldn't approach until the scene was secured, (another policy) and meanwhile, that trooper died in his car, probably thinking the whole time "I thought help had arrived?"

I realize that Law Enforcement is different that the GPMFI, but that entire scenario shows poor leadership and a poor command decision process with the responding officers.

No offense to any of the LEO's anywhere but I'm so glad that I changed my mind about becoming a police officer when I got out of the green machine. Knowing that there are bureauocrats that are willing to let the gals and guys at the sharp pointy end of things die rather than face a lawsuit, or bad press.

Wheeler

Did you have both good and bad officers above you in the military?

[LittleLebowski]

We are now back on topic of lessons learned from the Texas dash cam shooting. Act accordingly.

[Wheeler]

Did you have both good and bad officers above you in the military?

Absolutely, but the one thing drilled into us was to not leave our guys behind. I was very fortunate to have excellent NCO's, which make quite a bit of difference.

What I gathered from the second video is what led me to that statement. I realize that there are departments out there that take a stance that is not the norm (ie. your department for starters). I was generalizing regarding the overall trend.

Getting back onto the original topic, is there any information on what he used as cover? Just from the volume of his voice in the video, it sounds like he was standing or partially crouched behind the door.

Wheeler

[David]

Getting back onto the original topic, is there any information on what he used as cover? Just from the volume of his voice in the video, it sounds like he was standing or partially crouched behind the door.

Wheeler

I think he was out of the car with the door open standing between the door and car. Once he was shot I assume he fell or went down in the same spot.

[Josh Runkle]

As far as I noticed, he was afraid of people in the backdrop, and asking another officer to confirm that the people in the bakery were away from the windows (it sounds as if the other officer is in contact with the people in the bakery.

The thing that failed him was his confidence in his ability. Often we leave the range and shoot a drill like "dot torture" and get 48/50, give ourselves a nice pat on the back, have fun with our buddies, etc...

On the range we often focus on the 48 hits we got. In the real world, when you absolutely MUST make a critical shot, you suddenly start thinking about the 2 misses you had.

[Shellback]

Besides the initial confrontation, where I think the officer should've engaged the shooter, the one thing that really stood out to me was when the shooter took a supported firing position on the trunk of the car. At that point in time in time I really don't think there should've been any doubt as to his intention to fire on the officer.