KSTG at the NRA 22-January-2013

[joshs]

KSTG (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2330-KSTG) match
Tuesday 22-January-2013
$25
Estimated Round Count: 50-75
Squads begin at 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm. Six people maximum per squad.

Registration begins 9:00am on Monday 14-January. Call 703-267-1402 to reserve a slot.

[chrismark420]

Any special stages we should know about? I'm thinking low light?

[JConn]

Other than the pole vault stage nothing much... I don't think we've set stages yet, so be prepared for anything.

[joshs]

Is anyone else still planning on participating in the first annual (unofficial) KSTG jframe challenge? Remember that it will likely mean shooting without score.

[JV_]

Brownells just sent me my speed loaders, they were backorderd. I'm hesitant to do it this match if I haven't done any non-leisurely reloads to date.

[joshs]

I'm hesitant to do it this match if I haven't done any non-leisurely reloads to date.

Me too.

[kle]

Hmm -- Unofficial J-frame Match? I could go for that; I usually shoot with my L-frame (in the KSTG matches, that sixth round actually makes quite a difference), but I could be convinced to shoot my J-frame this time!

[kle]

Hmm -- Unofficial J-frame Match? I could go for that; I usually shoot with my L-frame (in the KSTG matches, that sixth round actually makes quite a difference), but I could be convinced to shoot my J-frame this time!

Okay, I have an idea: if I can get in on the 9PM relay, I'll run my J-frame. Then I can run my scheduled 10PM relay with my L-frame -- I can compete against myself! ($10 says one of me is not going to win, and I have a pretty good idea which one it will be...).

[abu fitna]

Thanks for the match, folks. Good clean fun had by all.

Must say, I hate shoot boxes. I concede the point that the small ones do make you practice shooting from narrower stance, etc.; but generally anything that forces one to look at your feet and some shiny orange tape is just a bit too gamer for me.

Nonetheless, fellowship and time on the firing line are always appreciated. The ROs remain superb... and while Todd is missed, his tradition is in good hands. (Hopefully awaiting his soon return.)

[cclaxton]

Thanks to the Match Directors and NRA Staff and others who assisted with putting on the match. It was sufficiently challenging.

It's okay to say "Muzzle!" and "Cover!"....I am used to it in IDPA!! (Hmmm...that didn't sound so good)

Nice to be able to shoot indoors where it is heated while it is friggin ice age outside.

Thanks,
Cody

[MDS]

Man, I'm sorry I missed it. Next time. Which reminds me, I need a real holster for the J frame....

[chrismark420]

Thanks to everyone for a great shoot. Stage configuration was perfect blend

[televiper]

I think the last stage wasn't legal under KSTG rules..

There were 3 targets from a box, 3 on the move, 1 from cover with the target under heavy 'soft cover', then 4 steel knockdowns from a box - 11 targets.

CONSULT THE BOOK OF ARMAMENTS!

KSTG Rules as of 12/2011:
III. Safety, Stages, & Matches
B. Stages
2. Round Count - Maximum of 10 targets per stage, and no more than 20 required shots per stage.


KSTG Apocrypha:
VIIII. Violations of Rules
R. Stage Setup
43. Round Count - 20 lashes with a wet noodle for every additional target in excess of the maximum

I'll put a pot on... ;)

[JV_]

Doh! .

[cdunn]

thanks for putting on a good match,I just wish I wouldn't have done so poorly , there is always next month for a shot at redemption.

[orionz06]

But this stage goes to 11.

[JMS]

CONSULT THE BOOK OF ARMAMENTS!

This doesn't get said nearly enough...;)

[JConn]

Fair enough rules are rules, however 4 of the targets were steel requiring one shot each. I don't think the last stage was excessive or beyond the scope of what kstg intends. You see the rulebook is more of a living,breathing document. You rulebookists just aren't smart enough to see the world is a different place than it was one year ago.
Stages now need 11 targets, for the kids.

[chrismark420]

More targets = more shooting = more fun, so I'm in. However, given my accuracy last night, I may need more mag pouches if we get more targets...

When will scores/times be posted?

[JV_]

Do you all have any feedback on the longer shots? Did you think they were too challenging?

[televiper]

Do you all have any feedback on the longer shots? Did you think they were too challenging?

I don't think the shots themselves were too challenging, but I know I had some trouble telling if I had the right number of A-Zone hits or if I should keep shooting. That could partly be due to using yellow glasses indoors, though - they doesn't do much to highlight brown targets. Or maybe it gets harder to see holes as stickers build up. Or maybe I should move up to something that makes bigger holes. Or maybe I should just go get my eyes checked.

[JConn]

I don't think the shots themselves were too challenging, but I know I had some trouble telling if I had the right number of A-Zone hits or if I should keep shooting. That could partly be due to using yellow glasses indoors, though - they doesn't do much to highlight brown targets. Or maybe it gets harder to see holes as stickers build up. Or maybe I should move up to something that makes bigger holes. Or maybe I should just go get my eyes checked.

I never can see my shots at 25 yds. It really forces you to watch the front sight lift and call your shots. I figured if I didn't get an a zone hit in six shots, oh well.

[chrismark420]

Agreed, I actually like the longer targets, but I too had some serious issues telling if I had hit or not. Think part of it was because I was in the later relay, so there was lots of tape on the targets, but some times shadows and peeling make it look like you've got a hit when you really don't. But otherwise no issue with the longer targets

[JV_]

I had a hard time seeing my shots too, and I ran it on the first relay (there weren't too many pasters).

I made sure I had good sight lift/follow-through for the shots. Before I left, I looked for at least 1 A zone shot and then moved on.

[joshs]

KSTG 22-January-2013 Results1272

[sys_999]

All the shots were certainly doable. I felt like my drops were due to a lack of diligence about fundamentals rather than having bad visuals due to distance.

Did forget on the first stage that KSTG uses a binary scoring system and you need to actually hit the 3"x5" instead of just using it for a reference. :o Quickly reacquainted myself with that facet of the game and had a fun match.

[kle]

I shoot Bullseye (and other boring pure-precision/target sports) at 25 and 50 yards, so I felt at home with the long shots (even thought they were pretty easy, considering I can use both hands in the run'n'gun games and can only use one hand in Bullseye). I can only sometimes see my hits at long distances, so I've always had to rely on reading my sights to call shots (and confirming with a spotting scope).

The stage design/required-rounds for the long shots also actually played nicely into my reload strategy for my wheelgun - especially on the 2nd stage (the barricades). I'd take my five required shots and shoot a sixth "insurance shot" at each barricade, then dump the empties and reload while moving to the next barricade. Same for the first stage - six rounds from each box (an insurance shot on each zone), reload between boxes.

Thanks to the guys for putting on a fun match again! I quite enjoyed it (except for the fourth stage - someone moved the second shooting box on me and my toes ended up poking out of the box).

[JV_]

For those that don't want to look in a spreadsheet:

1273

[televiper]

There was someone taking pictures or video (from the way he was holding the camera, I'm guessing video) at my session. Does anyone know if those are going to be posted somewhere or if that was his personal collection? ;)

[JV_]

Congratulations joshs!

[kle]

There was someone taking pictures or video (from the way he was holding the camera, I'm guessing video) at my session. Does anyone know if those are going to be posted somewhere or if that was his personal collection? ;)

I believe that was Stephen Lycett; I think he will be using the video to make a collage of sorts somewhere. I hope he'll have a link to it somewhere when it's done -- the footage I saw from the camera looked sweet!

[kle]

Fair enough rules are rules, however 4 of the targets were steel requiring one shot each. I don't think the last stage was excessive or beyond the scope of what kstg intends. You see the rulebook is more of a living,breathing document. You rulebookists just aren't smart enough to see the world is a different place than it was one year ago.
Stages now need 11 targets, for the kids.

The KSTG founding father TLG didn't envision modern "super stages" did he? Who needs more than 10 targets, anyways? /s

Though the super stage actually only required two reloads from me (six for the first position (reload), six on the move (reload), two for the hostage-surrounded target, and four for the poppers). 18 total required rounds.

[JV_]

The KSTG founding father TLG didn't envision modern "super stages" did he?IIRC - He was the one who first mentioned it at one of our planning session/lunches. It's usually my favorite stage at the match.

[Tinygnat219]

All,

Thank you for organizing yet another fun shoot. We really appreciate you guys setting up and running the match. It's nice to be able to do a bit of running and gunning as much of the shooting in this area is static.

I think next time, I'm joining Kent in shooting a revolver. I did once and my reload times simply SUCKED. Time to get out and practice more with it.

TJ

[JSGlock34]

Do you all have any feedback on the longer shots? Did you think they were too challenging?

I didn't mind the longer shots, but admit that like others I had some trouble seeing the hits at distance. Perhaps the small steel poppers could have been used for the long shots - it would've still been challenging but would provide some visual feedback.

Though I didn't run afoul of any cover penalties (this match - prior lesson learned), I think KSTG should either incorporate a 'muzzle' or 'cover' verbal warning - or limit the compounding of penalties incurred from a single shooting position or stage. On the stages that required shooting five rounds from a barricade - that's potentially 25 seconds of penalties (and that's just from one position). That seems a bit excessive to me.

Thanks to the staff for running another excellent match. I enjoyed the 'super stage' at the end and would like to see this practice continued.

[Arclight]

Thanks to the staff for running another excellent match. I enjoyed the 'super stage' at the end and would like to see this practice continued.

I second this... That was a fun way to put it all together and, in my case, try not to shoot the hostage... again*. In some ways it's almost like a mental mulligan to see if you can apply whatever lessons you learned (maybe I'm assuming a lot here) as you went through. I liked it a lot.

I was a little disappointed that you can't shoot with a weapon mounted light. I went and re-read the rule book (clearly it had been a while) and the whole "put the light on for table-start stages" thing is a bit hokey. This isn't the place for the debate, but I'm hoping that gets revisited eventually. WMLs on carry weapons (especially duty weapons) is increasingly standard, and if you're arguing forward weight/recoil control advantages, you'd have to outlaw anything attached to the front including lasers (allowed). I can't say I'm worked up over it, but I'll have to see if that's validated elsewhere.

Regardless, it was a fun match and thanks again to the guys running the show. Looking forward to next time!



*Pop quiz, hotshot.

[zeroflux]

There was someone taking pictures or video (from the way he was holding the camera, I'm guessing video) at my session. Does anyone know if those are going to be posted somewhere or if that was his personal collection? ;)

That was me, Televiper. I'm still working on the footage and pics but probably won't be able to have something up until this weekend as my day job is getting in the way of free time :)

I'll post in the forum when I have something up. Most of it will be posted on my Flickr photostream: http://www.flickr.com/zeroflux

Also, to alleviate any concerns if anyone has them, I do not take identifiable pics/video of people without permission and even if I do obtain permission to do so, I never post identifiable pics/video anywhere public without a signed model release form.

[JV_]

Perhaps the small steel poppers could have been used for the long shots - it would've still been challenging but would provide some visual feedback.I agree, steel is probably better for long distance shots, but there are a few gotchas:

The second stage's long shot was about 15Y, and you had to shoot it 5 times (which I liked). With one paper target, you only need one A zone hit to neutralize the target (avoid an FTN). If we replaced it with 5 individual poppers, for every one you can't hit you'll get a -5 for a missed target AND an FTN (-5).

Many of the poppers we have available for use in the matches is fairly beat up (dinged/warped), while there are a lot in the inventory, we are uncomfortable using many of them in the match. The large poppers have a lot of slop in the mechanism, so if it's not set just right, each time, it won't fall for the next guy. It requires a bit of tuning throughout the match, which makes it much slower to reset/set.


Though I didn't run afoul of any cover penalties (this match - prior lesson learned), I think KSTG should either incorporate a 'muzzle' or 'cover' verbal warning - or limit the compounding of penalties incurred from a single shooting position or stage. On the stages that required shooting five rounds from a barricade - that's potentially 25 seconds of penalties (and that's just from one position). That seems a bit excessive to me. FWIW: The cover/cover rule is per target, not per shot fired.

I know I could have benefited in more than one match, if an RO yelled a warning, I think Chris Rhines has a good argument against any RO communication with a shooter (other than yelling STOP). http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2330-KSTG&p=42575&viewfull=1#post42575

I prefer raised fault lines too, but ToddG covered it here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2330-KSTG&p=42668&viewfull=1#post42668

and here, with more discussion of the cover warnings:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2330-KSTG&p=42806&viewfull=1#post42806

[JV_]

Everyone: I appreciate all of your feedback. I don't have any input to the rules, but I can keep trying to incorporate the things you like (super-stages).

[JConn]

The one thing about the cover rule, and the way it is scored now (no warning/per target) that I like is that it is such a severe penalty it forces you to ensure you aren't crowding cover. It helps enforce proper use of cover (as much as is possible in a game).

[JV_]

It helps enforce proper use of cover (as much as is possible in a game).

And if it were per position, as the target count or difficulty rises the more people might be willing to take the penalty in order to make the shot easier/faster.

[MDS]

The one thing about the cover rule, and the way it is scored now (no warning/per target) that I like is that it is such a severe penalty it forces you to ensure you aren't crowding cover. It helps enforce proper use of cover (as much as is possible in a game).

I agree with this....and I MAY hills the record for highest % of possible cover violations. Cheap lesson, compared to learning it in a fight...

[JSGlock34]

FWIW: The cover/cover rule is per target, not per shot fired.

I know I could have benefited in more than one match, if an RO yelled a warning, I think Chris Rhines has a good argument against any RO communication with a shooter (other than yelling STOP).

Thanks for the clarification. Chris certainly has a fair point - will meditate on this further. Everything is a balance.

[cdunn]

I had a good time, the long shots were long and the rules are what they are and I need more practice(maybe today).I'll be back when ever I can, thanks.

[zeroflux]

There was someone taking pictures or video (from the way he was holding the camera, I'm guessing video) at my session. Does anyone know if those are going to be posted somewhere or if that was his personal collection? ;)

I finally finished some of the photos and video which can be found here:

Photo Set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zeroflux/sets/72157632573263410/

Video (Short Version): http://www.flickr.com/photos/zeroflux/8419217822/in/set-72157632573263410?likes_hd=1

Video (Full Version on YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CPcXccBt4xU

I still have a lot more raw footage to process so a a longer version will be posted on YouTube when its finished.

I do appreciate any feedback. Please feel free to use pics, with proper attribution - Photo Courtesy of zeroflux.com :cool:

[chrismark420]

Stephen,

Thanks for the photos! They look great. I spotted myself in two of them!