New DD integrally suppressed rifle

[peterb]

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2013/01/11/you-didnt-hear-this-coming-the-daniel-defense-isr-integrally-suppressed-rifle/

Just saw this, thought folks would be interested.

"Daniel Defense will release their first suppressor product next week at SHOT Show. The Integrally Suppressed Rifle (ISR) is an AR built on a pistol length gas system chambered in 300 AAC. It’s business end features a 10.3″ cold hammer forged barrel with a 5.7″ permanently mounted sound suppressor that brings the overall barrel length to 16.145″.

[JDM]

1 tax stamp I presume?

Awesome.

[JV_]

The can is permanently attached, and the new barrel OAL is over 16" ... so I think 1 tax stamp is in order.

[orionz06]

Seems cool, I suppose, if I had a use for that round.

[jon volk]

Seems cool, I suppose, if I had a use for that round.

X2. Wish it was 5.56 or even better .308.

[TCinVA]

Another thing that will be bought once those powerball people finally cooperate.

[Jay Cunningham]

Sort of neat, but extremely limiting.

[LHS]

Sort of neat, but extremely limiting.

That's my first reaction. With tax stamps, any suppressor should be moveable between guns. This is cool, and all, but it's a niche item. I'd rather have a separate SBR and suppressor.

[JDM]

I'm really hoping they release one in 5.56.

[rob_s]

"Integrally" seems a misnomer in this case. More like "grafted on". An integral can, to me, is the type you see on .22s where the mass of the can is spread along the bore to reduce the OD. this just seems like a bad way to keep from having two stamps (are there states where cans are legal and SBRs aren't?) for a silly round.

[GJM]

Why do you think .300 BLK is silly?

[rob_s]

I just don't get it. It's more expensive, falls like a rock, doesn't offer expansion at subsonic velocities, can't use many (if any) readily available 7.62 tips...

I got a chance to shoot somewhere around 2k rounds of it in matches and classes through a T&E upper, with free ammo (subsonic and super) and a free can, and I still don't get it. It cost me nothing, and arguably I was paid to like it, and I still can't figure out what it's supposed to do or why it's so wildly popular.

[GJM]

I don't disagree with much of what you say. However, I have a 9 inch AAC upper for a specific purpose -- defense against four leg creatures in the smallest possible AR package. So far, my upper has been reliable, accurate and much quieter than my my longer 5.56 uppers. I shoot super sonic 110 Barnes loads, and feel they offer more in diameter and mass than available 5.56 loads on moose/bear sized animals. As another niche application, I also have a Noveske Rogue Hunter 6.8 upper for mule deer hunting with an AR -- otherwise, I prefer 5.56.

[Odin Bravo One]

Some may describe it as a niche round with a niche application, but it seems to be working pretty well for those using it. Apparently my theory that there not varying degrees of dead (despite Miracle Max's assertion) is proving true yet again.

[WDW]

Some may describe it as a niche round with a niche application, but it seems to be working pretty well for those using it. Apparently my theory that there not varying degrees of dead (despite Miracle Max's assertion) is proving true yet again.

Haha...Miracle Max

[rob_s]

I don't disagree with much of what you say. However, I have a 9 inch AAC upper for a specific purpose -- defense against four leg creatures in the smallest possible AR package. So far, my upper has been reliable, accurate and much quieter than my my longer 5.56 uppers. I shoot super sonic 110 Barnes loads, and feel they offer more in diameter and mass than available 5.56 loads on moose/bear sized animals. As another niche application, I also have a Noveske Rogue Hunter 6.8 upper for mule deer hunting with an AR -- otherwise, I prefer 5.56.

It is almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff in this case. Those who are (might be?) "using" it in any sort of real-world applications are understandably silent, while those who buy it, fire 7 rounds, and store it away for another fantasyland application blather on incessantly. Which I realize is the cycle of the interwebs, but for some reason I find it especially annoying in the case of this round. It's ahead of brakes, fancy triggers and "ambi" on my list of annoying AR shit that doesn't accomplish anything but people go on and on and on and on about anyway.

[SLG]

It is almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff in this case. Those who are (might be?) "using" it in any sort of real-world applications are understandably silent, while those who buy it, fire 7 rounds, and store it away for another fantasyland application blather on incessantly. Which I realize is the cycle of the interwebs, but for some reason I find it especially annoying in the case of this round. It's ahead of brakes, fancy triggers and "ambi" on my list of annoying AR shit that doesn't accomplish anything but people go on and on and on and on about anyway.

I have zero experience with the 300, but it's ballistics interest me very much. Since I'm wed to the 5.56 for work, and am personally set up that way as well, I'm not about to change anytime soon. As for fancy triggers, and ambi anything (I'm right handed) they are mostly a bad idea IMHO, but brakes do have a measurable benefit, and not for 3 gun, which I've never shot. I find that peoples opinions on guns and accessories often depend on how good a shooter they are, and how good they aspire to be.

[GJM]

It is almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff in this case. Those who are (might be?) "using" it in any sort of real-world applications are understandably silent, while those who buy it, fire 7 rounds, and store it away for another fantasyland application blather on incessantly. Which I realize is the cycle of the interwebs, but for some reason I find it especially annoying in the case of this round. It's ahead of brakes, fancy triggers and "ambi" on my list of annoying AR shit that doesn't accomplish anything but people go on and on and on and on about anyway.

Not sure if your response is a general comment, or responding to my use, but for me the .300 BLK in the 9 inch AAC upper allows me to run a reliable, minimum sized package, quieter than my 5.56 uppers, and launching a heavier bullet for the purpose of causing things not to chew on me. So far, it seems to accomplish something for my use.

[Haraise]

Not sure if your response is a general comment, or responding to my use, but for me the .300 BLK in the 9 inch AAC upper allows me to run a reliable, minimum sized package, quieter than my 5.56 uppers, and launching a heavier bullet for the purpose of causing things not to chew on me. So far, it seems to accomplish something for my use.

Why'd you go nine inch? That's a bit long (about the same velocity/barrel length delta as a 5.56 in 13.5 or a 6.8 in 10.5) for maximum compactness while lethal in the blackout. Why not a 7.5~ length?

[GJM]

Why'd you go nine inch? That's a bit long (about the same velocity/barrel length delta as a 5.56 in 13.5 or a 6.8 in 10.5) for maximum compactness while lethal in the blackout. Why not a 7.5~ length?

Because that is the short upper AAC offers. I understand that the cartridge was optimized for that length barrel.

[Haraise]

Because that is the short upper AAC offers. I understand that the cartridge was optimized for that length barrel.

I find that interesting, given that the 'Honey Badger' that was the sweetheart of the .300 BLK has a barrel length of only six inches.

Do you have a link to what said it was optimized for nine inches?

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3653/screenshot20120210at814.png

Topical image I find interesting (not my data).

[GJM]

I find that interesting, given that the 'Honey Badger' that was the sweetheart of the .300 BLK has a barrel length of only six inches.

Do you have a link to what said it was optimized for nine inches?

Yes, SLG.

[BWT]

Most interesting to me is we may have a new suppressor mfg. I imagine things will be interesting as they develop. 300 Black is cool for being able to get 7.62x39 performance out of an AR-15 with all AR15 parts except the barrel. If you want something different go with something different. I happen to think they're fascinating. But I don't hunt so, I'm not picking one up any time soon.

ETA: And as far as need... How many times in your life have you truly needed an AR15 at this point?

I don't jump on people about need, there's also the freedom debate but that's separate.

[Sparks2112]

ETA: And as far as need... How many times in your life have you truly needed an AR15 at this point?

I don't jump on people about need, there's also the freedom debate but that's separate.

I can think of a couple personally ;) I get what you mean though, this is probably the wrong crowd for that question. :)

[Drang]

...(are there states where cans are legal and SBRs aren't?)...
Suppressors are legal in WA, SBRs are not. Nor is full-auto. (Not that I need a new way to turn money into noise...)

And ISTR reading several articles about use of .330 BLK in wild hog population control efforts.

[Haraise]

Yes, SLG.

I'm not sure what SLG is, and I'm afraid I don't see a link there, so I'm not sure what you're saying yes to?

[JV_]

I'm not sure what SLG isWho, not what.
http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?9-SLG

[Sparks2112]

Who, not what.
http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?9-SLG

This is the only forum I accept "so and so said it" as a valid answer. I love this place.

[Haraise]

Who, not what.
http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?9-SLG

I've now looked through his last five months of posts and still don't see anything about it. Might be missing something? Is why I was asking for a link.

[Sparks2112]

I've now looked through his last five months of posts and still don't see anything about it. Might be missing something? Is why I was asking for a link.

Probably a private conversation. I'd say a large number of the members have cell numbers for other members.

[orionz06]

Click the About Me tab.

[JM Campbell]

I've now looked through his last five months of posts and still don't see anything about it. Might be missing something? Is why I was asking for a link.

Dude is a SME and quite frankly an expert and his opinion is platinum in small arms and emplementing them on two legged creatures...just saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Haraise]

Dude is a SME and quite frankly an expert and his opinion is platinum in small arms and emplementing them on two legged creatures...just saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Checked out his about me. It says he's skilled in small arms, to be sure. His only post on this thread is that he has no experience with the .300, though. So... I'm not denying he's an awesome shooter, but that's not what we're talking about here?

(If you read the above as 'omg this person is dissing SLG and hates him because they're inferring being good at shooting does not translate directly into engineering round optimization' please reread it.)

[JM Campbell]

Checked out his about me. It says he's skilled in small arms, to be sure. His only post on this thread is that he has no experience with the .300, though. So... I'm not denying he's an awesome shooter, but that's not what we're talking about here?

(If you read the above as 'omg this person is dissing SLG and hates him because they're inferring being good at shooting does not translate directly into engineering round optimization' please reread it.)

;) I follow....you might want to research some more on the gent or reach out to the staff for clarification.

As for me the 300blk doesn't get my blood flowing. It's a cool idea for just a barrel swap and now I have a larger hole puncher, just not for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Kyle Reese]

Just to clear up any confusion regarding the SME designation on Pistol-Forum;


III. A note about SMEs

Select members of the pistol-forum.com community have been granted the title Subject Matter Expert (SME). These are individuals with proven credentials within the community who directly influence firearms-related policy decisions for high profile law enforcement, military, and/or industry entities. These professionals are often highly compensated for their time and expertise, and pistol-forum.com greatly appreciates their generous participation here. As such, forum members are expected to treat all such SMEs with appropriate respect and deference.

[Haraise]

;) I follow....you might want to research some more on the gent or reach out to the staff for clarification.

As for me the 300blk doesn't get my blood flowing. It's a cool idea for just a barrel swap and now I have a larger hole puncher, just not for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Clarification on what? A guy might be the best problem race car driver in the world, that doesn't mean GM/Toyota/Ford/Honda would hire him for engine design. Engineering optimization and use of those engineered tools are pretty far removed. That's not disrespect to the race car driver, that's just a different Subject Matter to be an Expert in.

[JM Campbell]

I respectfully bow out, I just don't see a point in your responses to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[GJM]

Clarification on what? A guy might be the best problem race car driver in the world, that doesn't mean GM/Toyota/Ford/Honda would hire him for engine design. Engineering optimization and use of those engineered tools are pretty far removed. That's not disrespect to the race car driver, that's just a different Subject Matter to be an Expert in.

Part of the problem here may be that folks that know SLG, respect his privacy, and thus are limited as to what they can say. A quick look around PF and PT would show you that besides being named a SME on Pistol-Forum, SLG has FAST coin #1, was very involved in the 5 Shot SME holster, and the Shaggy holster is named after him. I talk to him all the time, and can assure you that his expertise is not limited to shooting well and designing holsters. We have spoken extensively about the .300 BLK, and all sorts of other long guns. Whether that is good enough for you, only you can decide.

I also consider it a clue that AAC offers, as their shortest upper in .300 AAC Blackout, a 9 inch barrel. While the .300 AAC Blackout may function in shorter barrels than what AAC offers, can you imagine why AAC, the developer of the cartridge, would offer 9 inches as their shortest barrel upper if six inches was better?

[orionz06]

Clarification on what? A guy might be the best problem race car driver in the world, that doesn't mean GM/Toyota/Ford/Honda would hire him for engine design. Engineering optimization and use of those engineered tools are pretty far removed. That's not disrespect to the race car driver, that's just a different Subject Matter to be an Expert in.

I see where you are going but in this very specific instance I would take a conversation between SLG and GJM as almost citable. A quick search on google confirms the statements made here.

[BWT]

Kind of splitting hairs on a 6'' versus 9'' barrel, or even a 7.5'' versus a 9''.

For reference, a carbine length gas is what? 7'' long?

That's shoot yourself in the hand short.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I have no interest in this. I would much prefer a new AAC Ranger 3 welded onto a BCM Kino upper. When I discussed this a while back on one of TOS' I was literally laughed at and ridiculed. Now DD does it in an inconvenient cartridge and some people love it. I may carry out my previous plan now in spite of everyone and risk going full Derp.

[SLG]

Just got back from SHOT, and apparently missed all the excitement:-) This SME thing really is a little silly, as all of us have made mistakes at one point or another, and are not always correct. Me especially. Having said that:

I have no operational experience/extensive trigger time with 300blk. I have shot it, and I have spent many hours talking about it. That includes talking to friends who were involved in the design of the cartridge and weapons. They tell me that it was meant to run and work out of a 9" barrel. I didn't ask them to prove that to me. Longer barrels have better balistics, but not much better. Shorter barrels don't have better ballistics, and may not run as well. The pressure curve is different than 5.56, and so it can function in a shorter envelope than the 5.56. 6" seems too short to me, but maybe not.

The interent is a wonderful resource, but not all conversations have links.