Shotgun question...

[Tamara]

So, I don't need a shotgun for breaching or launching less-lethal rounds or shooting engine blocks or any of that tactical stuff. The only thing I would potentially ever need a shotgun for is shooting a bad guy in my house.

Given this, is there any real downside to using a youth model 20ga? Those little 870s are such handy-looking pieces, and a lot easier on the shoulder than a twelve bore fowling piece.

[WDW]

Nope. That would be a great choice.The great thing about the 870 is literally the endless ways to fit & tailor it to your specific likes/needs.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think Ayoob had data on the 20 gauge 870s being far less reliable than the 12 gauge version but that may be a dated idea.

I do know that almost all self defense ammo R&D has been in the 12 gauge flavor.

All of the 20 gauge buckshot that I know of is full power, while much of the stuff in 12 can be had in low recoil loadings, and that some of this (8 pellet Remington OO buck as an example) is VERY low recoil. Some of the low recoil OO buck I have fired hasn't kicked any harder than the low brass Winchester trap loads we use for some of our training.

[LHS]

I have the first 20ga 870 that Wilson Combat put out. It's a great little shotgun, and handles better with a 20" bbl than most 14" 12ga pump guns. My only issue has been finding suitable defensive loads. Nobody seems to make anything heavier than #4 in a 2-3/4"shell. If Federal made a #1 flite control loading, I'd about soil my drawers.

[RoyGBiv]

If you like the BOT, http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm


Lessons learned:
1. As we have shown time and time again, birdshot is for little birds, not for bad guys. It makes a nasty, shallow wound, but is not a good "Stopper".

2. I was surprised by the penetration of the #3 Buckshot in the 20 gauge. It performed much better than I would have expected. I would not be too quick to discount Buckshot in a 20 Gauge for home defense.

3. 00 Buck in the 12 Gauge was excellent.

4. The Slug in the 20 did not perform very well. For some reason, it broke up into small pieces.

5. Once again, the 12 Gauge Slug amazes us. It was devastating! Penetration was 5 jugs or almost 30 inches. That is equivalent to almost 15 inches of penetration of flesh.
I'm probably just repeating something you already read and were coming here for first-hand feedback..
Just thought I'd post this for others..

Cheers.

[peterb]

I think Ayoob had data on the 20 gauge 870s being far less reliable than the 12 gauge version but that may be a dated idea.

I've got that old book. He says that he prefers the 870 in 12 gauge and the 500 in 20, but I don't think there's any data other than his own observations.

Federal has 2 3/4" #3 and #4 buck loads and a 3" #2 load. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx
I don't know of any reduced-recoil 20 gauge buckshot loads.

I've got a 20-gauge 500 Bantam. It does handle nicely. I can say from experience that full-power buckshot in a light 20 can be less comfortable than reduced-recoil buckshot in a heavier 12. IMO, the best reason to go for a 20 over a 12 is if the user has small hands and a 12 is just too big to handle comfortably. Proper fit has a huge effect on felt recoil.

My experience has been that "too big and heavy" often means "too long and unbalanced". Weight is usually not a problem for smaller shooters if the gun balances correctly, but that may take some modifications.

[Al T.]

The guys at BOT always miss the details, but get a general idea. Irks me that they always use #8 birdshot as if that's the only size birdshot made. :rolleyes: One LEO that Tam and I know once mentioned that he had worked three shootings where a 12 ga loaded with # 7 1/2s worked just fine. For quite a number of years my go to load for HD (live in a sub-division) was #2s. Now it's "BB" shot for the first rounds...

Tam, I really liked my 870 Youth and only sold it as I got a great deal on an 1100 20 ga. I've seen plenty of deer killed with either #2 or #3 buckshot and it works just fine.

Peter, thanks for the heads up on the 20 ga #4 buck. I didn't know Federal was making that.

[John Ralston]

Doesn't a 20 recoil more than a 12 when comparing loads ounce per ounce? That is why you don't see much of anyone shooting 20's for clays...but maybe it's an old wives tale.

[TGS]

I've got a 20-gauge 500 Bantam. It does handle nicely. I can say from experience that full-power buckshot in a light 20 can be less comfortable than reduced-recoil buckshot in a heavier 12.


When I was a kid, I saw a grown man drop my brother's single shot youth 20ga upon firing it.......with birdshot.

Girly men. :rolleyes:

[tanner]

I have been doing some serious (??!?) thinking about this exact topic myself lately.

The missus is about 5 foot nothing and 120 lbs, however, she really enjoys shooting shotguns when I have taken her out to the range. I have an old 870 Police that I keep handy for me, but wanted her to have a long gun available too. I was leaning towards the Mossberg 930 SPX 20 gauge, but then wondered if a reduced recoil 12 pump gun with a youth stock would be a better choice.

Hopefully I can gain some insight from this thread!

[peterb]

Doesn't a 20 recoil more than a 12 when comparing loads ounce per ounce? That is why you don't see much of anyone shooting 20's for clays...but maybe it's an old wives tale.

The physics of actual recoil is simple -- shot mass(and powder mass, if you're being precise) x velocity vs. gun mass(weight). Smaller shot charges, slower velocities, and heavier guns all reduce recoil. So if you're shooting 1-ounce loads at the same velocity in a 12 and a 20, and the 20 weighs a pound less, it's going to recoil more.

FELT recoil is much more complex -- action type, gun fit, shooter size and skill, recoil pad selection, noise level, and many other factors are involved. A gas-operated semi-auto will usually have less felt recoil than a pump or double. The semi spreads the recoil impulse out over a longer time.

For the same shot weight, the larger diameter of a 12 supposedly produces slightly better patterns.

Clay target shooters usually prefer heavier guns to minimize recoil, as do waterfowl folks who hunt from blinds. Upland hunters who walk more than they shoot tend to prefer lighter guns.

[ST911]

So, I don't need a shotgun for breaching or launching less-lethal rounds or shooting engine blocks or any of that tactical stuff. The only thing I would potentially ever need a shotgun for is shooting a bad guy in my house.

Given this, is there any real downside to using a youth model 20ga? Those little 870s are such handy-looking pieces, and a lot easier on the shoulder than a twelve bore fowling piece.

A 12ga with low recoil/LE loads, a youth/short LOP stock, and solid modern stance will work as well and be just as shootable if not moreso. We run ladies, youth, IBOs, and big boys using same, and the most common feedback is "more ammo, please."

A 20ga isn't unserviceable, but I don't believe you're gaining as much as you might perceive.

The bigger issue with the smaller statured on pumps is reach to the forearm and operating it effectively. Use the longer sporting forearms, or the available extended models, for best results.

[Dave J]

I'd wholeheartedly agree with skintop911 on this one.

A few years ago, I was contemplating obtaining a 20-ga that my wife could easily use for HD if need be. Then, I stumbled across the reduced recoil Flightcontrol buckshot, and decided there was no point to messing with a 20.

I suppose if one was intending to go semiauto rather than pump, there might be a reliability edge to a full power 20 over a reduced recoil 12 in some platforms, but otherwise I don't see it as being a worthwhile tradeoff, given the current ammo choices. IMHO, anyway.

[Tamara]

All of the 20 gauge buckshot that I know of is full power, while much of the stuff in 12 can be had in low recoil loadings, and that some of this (8 pellet Remington OO buck as an example) is VERY low recoil.

I'm only bothered by the recoil when it comes to a day or two's worth of shooting; a mag tube or two is no big deal.

[JAD]

I'm only bothered by the recoil when it comes to a day or two's worth of shooting; a mag tube or two is no big deal.
-- Tam, have you had a chance to train with Rob Haught or anyone who expressly focuses on (to coin a phrase -- I don't think Mr. Haught coins many phrases) isometric recoil reduction? Recommended.

Not that I would get in your way for liking something a little more lithe -- I've got a couple of 16s at home.

[TGS]

-- Tam, have you had a chance to train with Rob Haught or anyone who expressly focuses on (to coin a phrase -- I don't think Mr. Haught coins many phrases) isometric recoil reduction? Recommended.

Not that I would get in your way for liking something a little more lithe -- I've got a couple of 16s at home.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4&noredirect=1

Looks good.

[Tom Givens]

My experience training females with shotguns mirrors what others here have said. A 12 ga 870 with a short stock and low recoil loads kicks less than a light 20 ga with full power ammo. Go with an 18" barrel, a one shot mag extension, and a youth stock and I think you will be happy.

My wife started on a 20 ga 870 and after shooting my short stocked 12 ga sold her gun and had me set up a 12 ga just like mine.

[SecondsCount]

My experience training females with shotguns mirrors what others here have said. A 12 ga 870 with a short stock and low recoil loads kicks less than a light 20 ga with full power ammo. Go with an 18" barrel, a one shot mag extension, and a youth stock and I think you will be happy.

My wife started on a 20 ga 870 and after shooting my short stocked 12 ga sold her gun and had me set up a 12 ga just like mine.

I have to agree. A well fitted shotgun goes a long way toward comfortable shooting.

[WDW]

Tam,
Don't you know?
Just racking a pump shotgun is all you need to scare away a bad guy (insert sarcasm)

[Tamara]

The bigger issue with the smaller statured on pumps is reach to the forearm and operating it effectively. Use the longer sporting forearms, or the available extended models, for best results.

It's not really a size thing. I'm "EHRMA GERD DIDJU PLAY BASKITBALL?" inches tall.

It originally comes from standing around behind the counter six years ago and coonfingering a couple of Youth Model 20ga 870s and wondering aloud whether a round of #3 buck from one at 5 yards was that much less effective than a twelve bore, especially given how light and nimble the 20ga 870 receiver was...

[Chuck Haggard]

A gun I have been thinking about making a copy of was one a guy at our IPSC club was using for shotgun. He has had shoulder surgery and is rather recoil sensitive when it comes to long guns.

He took a 20 gauge Rem 1100, a special field IIRC but maybe not, had a 21" barrel I think. Add a longer mag tube, a sorbothane type uber cushy recoil pad and one of those mercury recoil tube thingies in the stock. That gun handled and recoiled way more like an M1 carbine than a riot gun. I've seen him burn down the plate rack a number of times with that gun, 6 in like 2 seconds was pretty regular.

[DanH]

I've been wondering about this myself. My wife isn't a particularly avid shooter (recoil scared more than recoil sensitive) and I was considering a Mossberg .410 for her.
The only hesitation I have is that I have seen very little information on ballistics for .410 buckshot other than idiotic predictions of how devastating it would be from a Taurus revolver. :p

[BLR]

It's not really a size thing. I'm "EHRMA GERD DIDJU PLAY BASKITBALL?" inches tall.

It originally comes from standing around behind the counter six years ago and coonfingering a couple of Youth Model 20ga 870s and wondering aloud whether a round of #3 buck from one at 5 yards was that much less effective than a twelve bore, especially given how light and nimble the 20ga 870 receiver was...

I seriously doubt it.

Especially at 5 yrds.

[peterb]

.... especially given how light and nimble the 20ga 870 receiver was...

No argument there. My 20-gauge 500 feels a lot sleeker than the 12.

I got the Bantam with the wood furniture instead of synthetic for more weight. Comes with a 13" LOP stock and 22" barrel with choke tubes. I replaced the factory recoil pad with a Limbsaver, replaced the slippery plastic safety button, and deburred the stamped sliding bits. Nice gun. With an 18.5" barrel it's even quicker. The downside to the 500 is that you can't extend the magazine tube.

[NETim]

We have a Youth 20 870 for HD purposes (a backup to the AR, yes an evil black rifle.) The Youth 870 is light and quick swinging with the slender 21" barrel.

There's no doubting when a buckshot load is set off in it. :) I have no doubt that at household ranges, #3 buckshot is going to "change someone's channel" right now.

I'm used to big ol' heavy honking 30" 11-87's with adjustable combs etc for a long day of busting clays. (They don't kick, particularly with 1 oz loads.)

The Youth 870 with its short LOP whaps me in the nose with my thumb if I'm not careful. 7/8 oz skeet loads are good training loads to use in it.

Our first range session with it we started working on some hanging steel plates with the skeet loads at about 20 yards. The plates, predictably enough, swung briskly when center punched. When hit with the buck, the plate rack was blown over backwards. :)

I have every confidence in the 870 Youth should I ever need it.

Plus, it's the cutest gun in the arsenal. :)

Edited to add: I run the Federal "Personal Defense" #4 buck loads in it now. 1100 fps mv, a little less brisk recoil and I find it has acceptable combat accuracy. :)



http://www.midwayusa.com/product/958344/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-20-gauge-2-3-4-4-buckshot-shot-24-pellets-box-of-5 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/958344/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-20-gauge-2-3-4-4-buckshot-shot-24-pellets-box-of-5)

[LHS]

-- Tam, have you had a chance to train with Rob Haught or anyone who expressly focuses on (to coin a phrase -- I don't think Mr. Haught coins many phrases) isometric recoil reduction? Recommended.


I don't know, I thought his phrase describing the size of the ejection port in terms of fornicating felines was golden.

That said, the push-pull technique is worth its weight in gold. I can shoot all day and not feel a thing on my shoulder afterwards. I've used it with shotguns, carbines, and even a .500 NE double rifle at one point. It's not a technique for long-range shooting, but for close-range work, it just does the job.

If you can find good ammo, the 20 gauge will absolutely do its part, and it'll be lighter and handier than an equivalent 12-bore. Yes, that'll mean full-house loads can deliver a bit more recoil, but that's why you push-pull and drive on.

[Tamara]

He took a 20 gauge Rem 1100, a special field IIRC but maybe not, had a 21" barrel I think. Add a longer mag tube, a sorbothane type uber cushy recoil pad and one of those mercury recoil tube thingies in the stock. That gun handled and recoiled way more like an M1 carbine than a riot gun.

I'm having a moment over here... :o

[NickA]

Tam,
Don't you know?
Just racking a pump shotgun is all you need to scare away a bad guy (insert sarcasm)

A slight derail, not to argue the point, because I agree, but: I know some people who were recently involved in a robbery. They were in a back room when the BG's came in and started the party by racking a shotgun. 3 of the 4 said they knew immediately what that sound was, and they're not "gun people". It's entirely possible that the "EVERYBODY ON THE FLOOR!" right after that was what really tipped them off, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've been wondering about this myself. My wife isn't a particularly avid shooter (recoil scared more than recoil sensitive) and I was considering a Mossberg .410 for her.
The only hesitation I have is that I have seen very little information on ballistics for .410 buckshot other than idiotic predictions of how devastating it would be from a Taurus revolver. :p

Those are actualy really decent little guns in my limited experience. I had a bud who kept one behind the seat of his truck and killed damn near everything with it. Wasn't always the best gun for the job, but #4s do the job on a lot of small game and varmints, and he has whacked a number of coyotes using slugs (even though I think .410 slugs border on retarded).

This load; http://www.midwayusa.com/product/533166/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-410-bore-2-1-2-000-buckshot-4-pellets-box-of-20

and many similar loads like it, is basically half of what a 12 gauge puts down range. Four .36 calliber holes in a bad guy certainly isn't going to make him feel any better.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm having a moment over here... :o

Glad I could help.

[TGS]

Doc hasn't chimed in yet on 410, so I'll regurgitate what I think I know without any supporting evidence:

410 slugs out of a shotgun are in the same ballistic range as a 357 Magnum handgun (on the high end, like Buffalo Bore loads), and fragment badly upon impact leading to low penetration.

Maybe that's a product of soft lead and a quality slug design could fix it, but even if it had harder lead you're still using a longarm to throw 90-110gr slugs downrange with the power of a hot 357 handgun. Smoke'em if ya got'em, but if buying new you might as well just buy a pistol caliber carbine instead or get a real shotgun.

[peterb]

An informal test of some current .410 loads: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

An older look at .410 slugs: http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm

[pdb]

I'm having a moment over here... :o

Just to encourage further thoughts, my old LT20 that someone had cut down and put a ventilated butt pad on was essentially recoilless. Both Choate and Nordic make 20 gauge Remington magazine extension tubes, FWIW.

[Chuck Haggard]

Doc hasn't chimed in yet on 410, so I'll regurgitate what I think I know without any supporting evidence:

410 slugs out of a shotgun are in the same ballistic range as a 357 Magnum handgun (on the high end, like Buffalo Bore loads), and fragment badly upon impact leading to low penetration.

Maybe that's a product of soft lead and a quality slug design could fix it, but even if it had harder lead you're still using a longarm to throw 90-110gr slugs downrange with the power of a hot 357 handgun. Smoke'em if ya got'em, but if buying new you might as well just buy a pistol caliber carbine instead or get a real shotgun.

Yup, that's why I said the .410 slugs suck.

The various OO and OOO buck loads are much better choices for use on bad guys IMHO

[David Armstrong]

One of thos eFYI things: Gila May-Hayes, out at the Firearms Academy of Seattle, has been teaching shotgunning for over a decade using the 20 gauge. She might be a really good source of info on the topic.

[Simon]

I missed this thread the first time around, so I will say this for Tam and the others that that talked about female shooters. I taught female agents Shot gun, Rifle and Pistol for a few years, and the one thing that I learned is that rifle and shotgun fit is very very important. Female agents were really bruised by using full size stocks.

They were unable to get the butt of the gun into the shoulder properly and the pain off shooting like that caused most to be afraid of the gun.

I don,t know if a youth stock would fit a mature female or not, however I would suggest that you have someone that knows what they are doing fit you for length of pull and pitch. both of which can be adjusted by fitting a recoil pad.

[GJM]

I am kind of late on this, but wife has no use for a 12 gauge 870, and it has nothing to do with recoil. It is the weight of the 12 gauge 870, and her ability to hold the shotgun easily with one hand doing manipulations like loading, one hand shooting, etc. We set up a youth model 20 gauge 870 for her with Brockman aperture sights, a short LOP, etc. and she loves it (well as much as she loves any shotgun as she prefers a 45-70 lever gun, bolt or AR) since she can run it with one hand on account of the lighter weight. She has bird shot and buck, but her go to load is a Brenneke slug. I think the difference in terminal performance between the Brenneke 12 and 20 gauge slugs falls into the category of inconsequential increments.

[ST911]

I don,t know if a youth stock would fit a mature female or not, however I would suggest that you have someone that knows what they are doing fit you for length of pull and pitch. both of which can be adjusted by fitting a recoil pad.

That works as long as they are fit for gunfighting with the shotgun, not wing-shooting. The latter wills till leave the stock too long. Youth/bantam/"tactical" length is about perfect.

I have a really-IBO that has trouble with my 10 year old's SG stock. It's a frustrating process.

[Odin Bravo One]

I run a youth model stock on my 870. It works great to bring the action parts of the gun closer to the power area, and aides in manipulations and reloads for sure. I also shoot with my face off the receiver for both rifle and shotgun, thus eliminating any concern about getting a kiss from glass or optics.

[Drang]

I missed this thread the first time around, so I will say this for Tam and the others that that talked about female shooters. I taught female agents Shot gun, Rifle and Pistol for a few years, and the one thing that I learned is that rifle and shotgun fit is very very important. Female agents were really bruised by using full size stocks.

They were unable to get the butt of the gun into the shoulder properly and the pain off shooting like that caused most to be afraid of the gun....

My father used to hate quals on the PD, he is short enough* that he had trouble getting the butt of the gun into the shoulder properly and he would finish the day with his entire upper arm bruised.


*About 5 inches shorter than I, and 4 inches shorter than Tamara. FWIW.