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Bratch
04-08-2011, 11:20 PM
How do you merge competition and training when one is in conflict with the other?

I shot a match with a WHO stage that I had a malfunction in and cleared using a tap-rack-bang off of my leg and belt. The RO complemented me on the clearance and then asked that nobody else do it, he stated that you could use your strong hand to clear if neccessary. Another clash would be seeing/feeling the pistol at slidelock and not reloading. I understand the 180 on the WHO and if the range is cold not reloading only to unload at the end of a stage but these are both counter to what I train for.

Is the cure for this as simple as going to the range after a match and working on whatever skills you were unable to complete how you would prefer at the match; I.E. WHO malfunction clearances?

jlw
04-09-2011, 12:37 AM
I started shooting competitively on a regular basis about six months ago, and I have seen some similar things to what you describe at various matches.

I think such instances stem from people whose only exposure to firearms is through the competitive world and have little to no quality firearms and/or tactics training. Consider that if your only exposure to tactics was IDPA how little you would fair in a gunfight. You might as well be watching an action movie for tactics training.

I draw a distinction between firearms and tactics training. A person can be quite skillful with a firearm but have absolutely no actual tactical knowledge to impart. Even people with tactical knowledge may be teaching tactics that are not relevant to the student's world.

ToddG
04-09-2011, 07:25 AM
To quote an old friend, former SEAL, and serious paintball competitor: If you cannot separate competition from fighting, you probably shouldn't do either.

VolGrad
04-09-2011, 08:41 AM
To quote an old friend, former SEAL, and serious paintball competitor: If you cannot separate competition from fighting, you probably shouldn't do either.

Another quotable moment here on P-F.com. :p

JodyH
04-09-2011, 08:48 AM
I see a lot of "tactical" trainers who recommend you shoot the match like it's training.
I disagree completely.
I suggest you shoot the match like it's a competition.
The reason is, the match will force you into doing things "wrong" and I think having a solid mental distinction between competition and training helps stop you from ingraining bad habits.
If you go into it with competition on the mind you won't be as likely to blur the line into pseudo-training.
Also, there aren't enough repetitions of bad habits in a match to overcome the good repetitions you should be putting in at the range.

John Ralston
04-09-2011, 12:00 PM
Jason Falla and I talked about this some over dinner. He shoots competition, but he does set higher standards for himself when he competes. He will only accept hits in the A Zone. He admits that the really fast guys that shoot some C's finish higher, but he is unwilling to sacrifice good hits for speed.

I am going to make sure to set higher standards for myself in the future. I will still look at it as a game, but I want to take full advantage of all the trigger time I can get.

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rsa-otc
04-09-2011, 05:55 PM
I find it interesting that not all but many of the known gunfight survivors consider competition an important part of their training program. The way I look at it is that I will shoot the stage as a tactically see fit. As long as it's safe and tactically sound if the RSO gives me a procedural so be it. I will work harder to over come the penalty and still try to place well. I won't sacrifice good tactics for gamesmanship.

I will never be any more than a club shooter and thats fine with me. I'm there to PUSH MYSELF not compete with the next guy.

VolGrad
04-09-2011, 07:13 PM
I will never be any more than a club shooter and thats fine with me. I'm there to PUSH MYSELF not compete with the next guy.

Well said sir. That is exactly how I look at myself ... but it is a nice bonus when you beat the others. :cool:

Bill Lance
04-09-2011, 07:18 PM
I am [I]brand new[I] to IDPA, but I see it as an opportunity to expose [to myself] my weaknesses. And, there are quite a few...:o

jar
04-09-2011, 08:47 PM
To quote an old friend, former SEAL, and serious paintball competitor: If you cannot separate competition from fighting, you probably shouldn't do either.

Agree 100%. Also, I think some subset of the people who shoot the match like it's tactical training use that an excuse for why they can't win.

JodyH
04-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Jason Falla and I talked about this some over dinner. He shoots competition, but he does set higher standards for himself when he competes. He will only accept hits in the A Zone. He admits that the really fast guys that shoot some C's finish higher, but he is unwilling to sacrifice good hits for speed.
That's my approach as well.
My other concession to reality is I only shoot from AIWB concealed, which excludes me from IDPA and forces me into IPSC Limited.
While this might cost me .5 on a stage or two, it's not a big enough disadvantage that I'm going to change my holster or carry position.
I can think of a whole lot of other areas to shave 2 seconds over the course of a match.

John Ralston
04-09-2011, 09:40 PM
That's my approach as well.
My other concession to reality is I only shoot from AIWB concealed, which excludes me from IDPA and forces me into IPSC Limited.
While this might cost me .5 on a stage or two, it's not a big enough disadvantage that I'm going to change my holster or carry position.
I can think of a whole lot of other areas to shave 2 seconds over the course of a match.

I too shoot from my concealed IWB - run what you brung...

jlw
04-10-2011, 07:29 AM
I find it interesting that not all but many of the known gunfight survivors consider competition an important part of their training program. The way I look at it is that I will shoot the stage as a tactically see fit. As long as it's safe and tactically sound if the RSO gives me a procedural so be it. I will work harder to over come the penalty and still try to place well. I won't sacrifice good tactics for gamesmanship.

I will never be any more than a club shooter and thats fine with me. I'm there to PUSH MYSELF not compete with the next guy.


Well said sir. That is exactly how I look at myself ... but it is a nice bonus when you beat the others. :cool:


rsa-otc,

I tell folks that I don't care where I finish as long as I beat VolGrad. :) :D

Badfish25
04-10-2011, 09:39 AM
I like the competition part, it adds a different level of stress to shooting. I shoot what I carry, and try to make only A hits (although I think if that all you ever make you should try to speed it up some to push yourself).

The way I look at it is someone designed this stage with a certion way it should be shot, so if you go in and follow the rules, not only do you have to shoot well to win, but also have to think about what you are doing while shooting.

If it was not for IDPA I would be stuck on a square range most of the time, which will only take you so far.

Chuck Haggard
04-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Agree 100%. Also, I think some subset of the people who shoot the match like it's tactical training use that an excuse for why they can't win.

To an extent.

Back when I was shooting USPSA locally I has severely hampered having to use my S&W 5906 duty pistol from my a level III holster and flapped mag pouches against even the limited guys running race rigs.

Then there is the whole issue of "tactics" and how the gamers handle that.

I didn't care since I was there to get time in with my duty gear.

Same-same with IDPA.

Pure shooting I do OK. I had never shot a classifier before until the other day, and shooting cold with my G17 from duty gear I was 7 seconds off of making Master, and I wasn't trying that hard to get there.

When running the courses of fire that are more "scenario" -ish during a match I often find myself not gaming the course for time. I get my hits, work from cover realistically, etc., but I refuse to do certain things for time, like run balls to the wall down a "hallway" just to get to the next shooting point so I can game my time.

I also shoot my actual carry guns from my actual carry gear, which I am shocked to find many IDPA guys don't.

JodyH
04-10-2011, 04:08 PM
When running the courses of fire that are more "scenario" -ish during a match I often find myself not gaming the course for time. I get my hits, work from cover realistically, etc., but I refuse to do certain things for time, like run balls to the wall down a "hallway" just to get to the next shooting point so I can game my time.

Here's another issue on which I disagree with "tactical shooters" who disparage "gaming" a stage with fast movement.
What is realistic use of cover?
What is the optimal speed to go down a hallway?
The answer is "it depends".
It depends on the circumstances.
How fast will you be going down the hallway towards your children's room if you hear shooting? I damn sure won't be heel-toe slow walking.
What is the best way to slice cover?
Again, it depends.
It depends on whether you are sneak and peeking or doing a dynamic entry.
One you'll slice slow, the other you'll be doing an explosive entry.
I think of IPSC and IDPA as dynamic shooting where speed is critical.
You can practice sneak and peek at your house dry or at the range on training day.
Don't fall into the trap of "tactical = slow" because it doesn't.
Tactics should fit the situation and some situations demand speed.

Slavex
04-10-2011, 06:17 PM
I shoot a lot of competitions mostly IPSC and I do a lot of FoF training with various PDs. I have yet to enter a room or hallway with the same carefree abandon I do in IPSC when I have people shooting back at me, or if I'm the good guy, a room with hostages in it as well as bad guys. Same as I don't do sneak and peeks in IPSC although I do slice corners, doors and ports similarly. IDPA and IPSC are games, I approach them as such.

rsa-otc
04-10-2011, 06:21 PM
rsa-otc,

I tell folks that I don't care where I finish as long as I beat VolGrad. :) :D

If truth be told there is enough testosterone in this old body to still look at the scores and when I see that I won my class or got most accurate pump my fist and say "YES". :cool:

But mostly I only look at the scores to see if I'm improving compared to the rest.

Chuck Haggard
04-13-2011, 09:22 AM
Don't fall into the trap of "tactical = slow" because it doesn't.

I concur with what you are saying, but unless you are trying to outrun a tsunami, running balls-to-the-wall is almost always not a good idea.

On my side "job" we spend a time on the barricade field FoF during low-light and active-shooter instructor classes getting people to stop running, among other things.

Doing a full speed 3-5 second rush as part of an infantry fire-and-maneuver attack is significantly different than working a tactical problem by yourself with a pistol.

Having attended, among other incidents of course, two active shooters during the course of my career, I "get" that speed can often be critical, but reading the right timing of the response to the situation is a rather important skill to have.

They way I see almost every IDPA guy work barricades and cover, or how they move during a match, would ensure they ended a FoF evolution absolutely covered in paint.

JodyH
04-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Like I said, situational dependent.
If I hear the shit going down in my child's bedroom or in the room where my wife is, I'm full speed and what happens happens, but I'm neutralizing the threat NOW.
If I'm sitting in my office at work and shooting starts in the lobby my speed is going to be more methodical.

Full speed barricade work is a great skill to have. It increases the speed at which you identify and engage targets which will carry over into slower pie slicing.

I think it would be very interesting to take a skilled competition shooter who has a tactical background and run some FoF drills in a 360 environment at varying speeds.

MDS
04-24-2011, 10:02 PM
Not to necro-post, but I shot my first match in over a year yesterday, and boy, was it useful for training! You see, my marksmanship has been improving in leaps and bounds over the last few months. It's gotten to the point where I'm happy enough that I've begun working on draws and reloads. Well, my performance showed clearly that my weakest link is definitely marksmanship. I had way too many points down on targets past 10yd, including a -8/FTN at 15yd that I'm especially fond of. I say fond, because it's been a great kick in the ass - you can bet I'm going to shift the focus of my practice back to accuracy at speed.

At least at my level of shooting, competing seems like a pretty good way to diagnose and motivate. It was great to just watch a bunch of other folks shoot, too - very educational for that alone.

NGCSUGrad09
04-25-2011, 08:49 AM
I agree with others that saying they HAVE to do what they would do in a "tactical situation" is a crutch for poor ability. Some of the best competitive shooters I know are some of the best "tactical" shooters I know.

To me, a true sign of mastering the art of the firearm is being able to apply the necessary skills to the situation at hand. This means ALL possible instances from competition to the street.

jar
04-25-2011, 03:42 PM
At least at my level of shooting, competing seems like a pretty good way to diagnose and motivate.

I don't think that ever goes away. Competition is a great motivator to practice what you suck at. People tend to practice what they're already good at because it feels more satisfying to do something well. Competition causes you to work on what you suck it because the satisfaction of doing something well is much greater at a match when all your friends are watching.

HeadHunter
04-26-2011, 09:25 AM
To quote an old friend, former SEAL, and serious paintball competitor: If you cannot separate competition from fighting, you probably shouldn't do either.

My opinion is that if your state of training is so weak that shooting one match a month is going to screw you up, you need to train more.

Mitchell, Esq.
05-06-2011, 05:50 AM
It's kinda odd that in almost every physical activity, boxing, football, running, weight lifting...serious people compete in objectively measured activities to determine skill level.

However, when it comes to making uncooperative people who want to hurt you unconscious, or putting lead into uncooperative people who want to kill you...objective measurements of skill are a bad thing.

BWT
05-06-2011, 11:59 PM
Being inexperienced I'm going to minimize my input.

But I'd think getting behind a gun, drawing from concealment, practicing the fundamentals, in a stressful environment (differs person to person, some people really fear getting infront of crowds/competitions), moving and shooting, are a good thing.

It's no substitute to the type of training one could get, but it beats shooting at a range with fixed target distances, from magazines laying on a counter, from a standing position only.

I'd say getting comfortable being conscious of the gun's orientation, moving, manipulating it under stress, all are good things.

What does an IDPA competition cost? $5-15? What does a training class cost? $400?

Well then I'd say you got what you paid for if you look at them comparatively. Just keep the context of what you're doing in mind.

Chuck Anderson
10-12-2011, 03:29 PM
I shoot a lot of competitions, everything from USPSA and Multi Gun to Bianchi Cup. I've also been shot at on more than one occasion. At no point did my competition mindset kick in making be try to jump out from cover and treat it like a 32 round field course. I've shot enough in training and under the stress of competition that I wasn't worried about getting hits on target if need be. I didn't worry about what would happen if I had a malfunction. I didn't worry about my movement between positions of cover. I'd done it all. Because of my performance in competition I knew I had the skills and abilities to succeed and that gave me the time to focus on tactics. It allowed me to be further away from the suspect, because I knew I could hit from there. It allowed me to rapidly assume field expedient shooting positions, because I'd done it all before.

As to the OP's training scar that he was worried about. Clearing a malf one handed. If you're in a shooting and you have to resort to one handed shooting, and you have a malfunction and you try to clear it with your opposite hand, your either going to clear it or realize very quickly that it isn't working and swap to your other method of clearing malfs. I tell my guys they can shoot competition however they want. Tactically like they are in training or balls to the wall competition mode. Either way it's trigger time.

ToddG
10-13-2011, 09:08 AM
I shoot a lot of competitions, everything from USPSA and Multi Gun to Bianchi Cup. I've also been shot at on more than one occasion.

I know things can get tense at Bianchi but people shooting at you? Man, that's just crazy! :cool:


At no point did my competition mindset kick in making be try to jump out from cover and treat it like a 32 round field course.

For a short while, I worked with a decorated Navy SEAL who was also a nationally recognized paintball competitor. He always used to say, "If you can't tell the difference between a game and a gunfight, you shouldn't do either."

NickA
10-13-2011, 09:34 AM
After watching Tom Givens' DVD and hearing his lecture I don't remember thinking "Hey that's just like the IDPA stage I shot last week! " about any of the gunfights he described. If that Bad Day ever comes the difference between the two will be immediately apparent I'm sure.
While IDPA isn't perfect the bottom line is it's the only way I get to shoot at all some months, and it beats square range shooting or none at all IMO.

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Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Chuck Anderson
10-13-2011, 11:38 AM
I know things can get tense at Bianchi but people shooting at you? Man, that's just crazy! :cool:





Ever been on the practice range in Columbia? There are some scary dudes walking around there.

orionz06
10-13-2011, 11:45 AM
For a short while, I worked with a decorated Navy SEAL who was also a nationally recognized paintball competitor. He always used to say, "If you can't tell the difference between a game and a gunfight, you shouldn't do either."


Who, if you can say?

David Armstrong
10-13-2011, 12:10 PM
I've learned lots of things about shooting and fighting by participating in IPSC, IDPA, and assorted other games, and think anyone can also learn doing that. I've also learned a lot of things by being in some real shootings and fights. The trick, as Todd's SEAL friend said, is being able to recognize the difference and figure out what applies when. Some skills and tactics translate to other arenas, some do not.

theblacknight
10-15-2011, 07:19 PM
He will only accept hits in the A Zone. He admits that the really fast guys that shoot some C's finish higher, but he is unwilling to sacrifice good hits for speed.



I do the same.I wont win the match, but IDPA put "most accurate" ranking on the results for a reason.


I also shoot my actual carry guns from my actual carry gear, which I am shocked to find many IDPA guys don't.

Same here. I only own one pistol, it's my everything gun. I shoot matches with it and my MTAC holster.I've never seen anyone CCW with a G34 in a comp tac belt holster and IDPA Sponsor vest.I really wish IDPA would ban Shoot Me First vests.It would get rid of all these USPSA wieners from dusting off their production gun and gear, and simply cover it up with a fucking sailboat canvas.

Sometimes I use the match for training, sometimes I try to run the wheels off.

orionz06
10-15-2011, 08:52 PM
Sometimes I use the match for training, sometimes I try to run the wheels off.

There is something to be said for running the wheels off and seeing what happens.

JeffJ
10-17-2011, 09:21 AM
I do the same.I wont win the match, but IDPA put "most accurate" ranking on the results for a reason.



Same here. I only own one pistol, it's my everything gun. I shoot matches with it and my MTAC holster.I've never seen anyone CCW with a G34 in a comp tac belt holster and IDPA Sponsor vest.I really wish IDPA would ban Shoot Me First vests.It would get rid of all these USPSA wieners from dusting off their production gun and gear, and simply cover it up with a fucking sailboat canvas.

Sometimes I use the match for training, sometimes I try to run the wheels off.

I don't know, I think if you're playing a game then you should try to win.

Really both of them are pretty ridiculous to consider "training" - Our club level IDPA matches are typically 4 stages and less than 100 rounds in about 3 hours. They also consist of stages that, while fun and challenging, are most likely nothing like how a typical CCW altercation goes down. I often hear people talk about how great IDPA is for "training" and then look at the stages and think to myself that if I ever find myself in this situation I've seriously fucked something up in a chain of vital life choices.

As far as hardware and cover garments go - that's great that you can run with your gear. I carry a G34 AIWB which is a no-go for IDPA so I switch to OWB at 3:00 and shoot me first vest. That gear set up probably has a fraction of second advantage over a looser garment and IWB holster which can easily be made up by shooting -0 and transitioning well. If you think that your gun puts you at a disadvantage in a match then you might want to consider changing that up, but there have been plenty of really good shooters not shooting G34s and M&P pros in SSP - see Ernest Langdon.

Are there rules that I would change about IDPA, sure, but IDPA is what it is - don't hate the player, hate the game.

theblacknight
10-17-2011, 05:18 PM
It's training as in: I'm here in my normal street wear, with THE gun and THE holster I carry with. USPSA and IDPA works on some major skills you need to know.So there is some training/skills value .But what is the point of dealing with Mr Tactical RO guy and his friends,and some of the dumb rules of IDPA if your not gonna get anything extra out of it?



One thing I do like with IDPA is the blind stages. all you know is you need this many rounds and .. . . BEEP. You def dont see crap like magazine stows while moving and that up on one leg around cover so I dont have to replant my feet thing, when you cant see the stage 1st.

jetfire
10-17-2011, 07:11 PM
Oddly, IDPA would disagree with you since they banned blind stages at sanctioned matches. Also, I spent 2 months carrying a G34 IWB, and to be perfectly honest my Woolrich Elite vest is my favorite concealment garment. I prefer to carry OWB, and if I'm going to the store to get milk or whatnot it's simple to throw a vest or windbreaker over my gun and not worry about it. And I'm an IDPA gamer and a USPSA weiner; I like shooting the same gun in two different sports, since I get to up my trigger time and keep my mind flexible. Complaining about "gamers" in IDPA is kind of pointless since as long as they're keeping score, it's a game, and people want to win.

theblacknight
10-17-2011, 09:29 PM
I like the same, but wind breaker/fleece dosent work in the summer. My issue with the game is people not running what they run. Yes it's a game. It's to show things go when your not in "SA" mode at some awesome grey group class. I know why more dudes that carry j frames, but go the Pro series, then ones that carry the big stick full time.like 95%.

Run your everyday gear in the game. If you dont like your standing, and think its the gear and not you, by all means, find a real holster that still works outside the range for everyday and run that. If its you,then work on you .Your still gaming, still trying to win. Why would IDPA mention LEO/Mil rigs and using retention if that wasnt their intent? Why would Todd mention duty rigs and such with the fast drill if everybody is just gonna buy a fast A rig to drill the drill?

and IDPA HQ can get fucked. The guys run a blind stage every match. Learning happens. many normally sound comp shooters lose their shit in a blind stage.

joshs
10-17-2011, 09:43 PM
Blind stages are not a fair assessment of skill because there is no way to prevent cheating. Unless every competitor is prevented from telling their friends the stage layout, some competitors will have a significant advantage.

And, as long as some competitors value winning, they will maximize their gear, within the confines of the rulebook, for winning.

jetfire
10-17-2011, 09:51 PM
My issue with the game is people not running what they run. Yes it's a game. It's to show things go when your not in "SA" mode at some awesome grey group class. I know why more dudes that carry j frames, but go the Pro series, then ones that carry the big stick full time.like 95%.

In the words of my people, "so what?" Honestly, what does it matter to you what I run during the match vs. what I carry. I'm not shooting an IDPA match to practice "real-world defensive skills" or whatever, I'm there to play a game to the best of my physical ability and hopefully win. If IDPA stages were "realistic", they'd consist of seeing who could run away the fastest while dialing 911.


Run your everyday gear in the game. If you dont like your standing, and think its the gear and not you, by all means, find a real holster that still works outside the range for everyday and run that. If its you,then work on you .Your still gaming, still trying to win. Why would IDPA mention LEO/Mil rigs and using retention if that wasnt their intent? Why would Todd mention duty rigs and such with the fast drill if everybody is just gonna buy a fast A rig to drill the drill?

That's not the point; the point is that some guys believe that shooting the game to win the game is just as valid a goal as you believe practicing your "gunfighter" skills is. Either approach is valid. I don't have a problem with the guy I shoot with who moves tactically, scans after each string, and only reloads in places it makes good sense to reload. Similarly, he's cool with me running around like a wildman, shooting on one foot, etc. Neither approach is bad or wrong, they're just different.


and IDPA HQ can get fucked.

Nice to see you're keeping it classy, bro. :rolleyes:

theblacknight
10-18-2011, 09:25 AM
Blind stages are not a fair assessment of skill because there is no way to prevent cheating. Unless every competitor is prevented from telling their friends the stage layout, some competitors will have a significant advantage.

And, as long as some competitors value winning, they will maximize their gear, within the confines of the rulebook, for winning.
When we do it, its kinda like a understood thing that you don't spill the beans to the guys waiting to go.


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ToddG
10-18-2011, 10:27 AM
re: surprise stages, as joshs points out there is a huge problem with friends & teammates sharing information at major matches. The concept is great, but the execution is poor.

re: game vs. gunfighter, my position has always been this: if you want to show up in your EDC gear for the sake of testing yourself and being better with your gunfightin', by all means do so. I did it that way at every single match I ever shot. At Nationals every year, I even spent the money to shoot my JHP carry ammo (usually 124+p or 115+p+ 9mm). The only concession I made on occasion was my cover garment. When I was at Beretta and we were sponsored by Royal Robbin, I wore an RR vest. When I was at SIG, I wore a SigTac vest. Though admittedly, I walked out the door wearing those vests for everyday concealment more often than I should have, too.

But if I'm there to test myself and my gear, then I cannot also get too amped up about my overall standing. You're either there to win, or you're not. If you're not, it's bad form to complain about the guys who are there to win. If you want to win, then you have to look at the rules and do what you have to do to win within those rules. It's that simple.

The flipside is that quite a few folks show up with sub-optimal gear specifically so they have an excuse when they do poorly. I don't care what you're carrying or how you're carrying it, if you score half as well as the top shooter you need to reassess your gear & your skill.

JM Campbell
10-18-2011, 11:02 AM
I shot my first IDPA match on Sat. I never went into it to win but to see what I could do and help point out what I need to work on. In short it's everything that needs work. It doesn't matter that I came in 15th out of 27 in SSP to me. I had a
blast and got some trigger time in a timed evolution that I was completely not comfortable or confident in.

I view it as a tool kinda like dry fire. Bonus is there is stress and some what of an unknown.

That's my .2.

JeffJ
10-18-2011, 11:04 AM
IDPA HQ can get fucked

Then don't play

Seriously, don't show up on the tee box with grandad's hickory shafted clubs and complain that all the guys with graphite who are blowing past you by 50 yards aren't playing the game right, because they are.

IDPA gives some people the opportunity to run their daily carry gear, you happen to be one of them, good for you. I can't, I carry AIWB - a lot of people carry a .380 in a pocket holster - they can't either. You may disagree with their choice of weapon or carry style, but regardless they don't have the option of running what they carry so they play what they want, the rules are pretty clear about what's allowed.

Hey, start your own game and if it takes off thats awesome, but most people who play games play to win, so your'e going to have "gamers" no matter what. That's why its not training, it's a game. Sure, there's crossover but realize what it is and then do what you want, but don't get your panties in a bunch when guys are playing the game by the rules.

JodyH
10-18-2011, 11:17 AM
I've rarely found that the 0.5 sec per stage my carry gear adds to my draws and reload to be the determining factor in where I place in a match.


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jetfire
10-18-2011, 11:24 AM
A half-second per stage is HUGE, that's six seconds over a 12 stage match just on your draws alone. If you shoot a match clean with no procedurals or no-shoots, six seconds might very well be the difference between 1st place and 1st loser.

rsa-otc
10-18-2011, 12:00 PM
As with anything in life it's what you make of it.

I like IDPA because it makes you "THINK" while practicing your gun handling skills to a level of unconscious competence. And you don't get that while shooting Q courses or drills, with those you're only thinking about your gun handling not anything else.

JAD
10-18-2011, 02:11 PM
I messed around with IDPA quite a bit during its formation. It was a nice idea. I quit when people started showing up in matching polo shirts. As others have said perfectly well, if it was realistic it wouldn't be any fun.

If it draws people to shoot and makes it easier for people to gain awareness of defensive pistolcraft, then it's a good thing for the masses. I think that for someone serious, if you're practicing to get good at the things that will help you win matches, you'll probably practice some things you shouldn't (automatically transitioning after two shots COM, engaging multiple targets from one position, working with gear that's substantially different from your real stuff) and, possibly worse, you'll start thinking some things are more important than they might actually be (reloads are my pet peeve). But, if you're really really serious, you practice a lot more than I do, and can probably keep things on an even keel that way as long as your head stays right. My shooting time, however, is strictly budgeted. I benefit most from training (by which I mean /being instructed/ -- if no one's teaching you anything, it's not training). Secondly, I benefit from practice -- repeating the things that are most important for me to improve in a controlled and intentional manner. I can measure my progress just fine on my own (my suckmeter goes to eleven). Competition -- while sure 'nuff fun -- really doesn't justify time or primers for me anymore. And if I was to show up at a match, y'all would agree that I definitely should have kept practicing.

JodyH
10-18-2011, 03:06 PM
A half-second per stage is HUGE, that's six seconds over a 12 stage match just on your draws alone. If you shoot a match clean with no procedurals or no-shoots, six seconds might very well be the difference between 1st place and 1st loser.
The biggest matches around here have 6 -7 stages at most.
I've been bumped to A Limited shooting my P30 from full concealed AIWB, so the stand and deliver classifier stages aren't a problem.
I can still get a 1 sec. A hit at 7 yards, so my gear isn't what's holding me back.
My "problem" is I value accuracy over speed and shoot too many A's instead of slightly faster C's. I shoot a 15 round 9mm instead of a 18+ round .40 in Limited. I half-ass walkthroughs and don't pre-plan stages.
That's what holds me back.
But somehow I still pull out some >90% scores and the occasional win or top 3.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Tamara
10-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Explanation. Blah-blah. Stuff. Fact. Statistic.

Dude, the only reasonable retort to Caleb's post would have been "Shut up, gamerfag!" ;) :D

jetfire
10-18-2011, 04:17 PM
Having been on the losing end of matches where the difference between me and 1st place was less than 3.5 seconds, I can't imagine voluntarily giving up a half-second anywhere. If I can maximize the gear I'm using within the rules, that's just one less complication to worry about so I can focus more directly on my shooting. Because like Tam says, I'm a dirty, dirty gamerfag. While I acknowledge that I may someday need to use a firearm in self-defense again, I figure the odds of being struck twice by lightening are pretty slim. On the flip side, I have a realistic chance and competing for national level titles in the next 2-3 years assuming my current developmental curve, so I'd rather focus on improving those skills.

JeffJ
10-18-2011, 05:15 PM
I want to see you get through a stage with a latte and a jet fire

jetfire
10-18-2011, 05:24 PM
You know, it was actually because of that incident that I stopped carrying a pocket gun and made the commitment to carry a reasonably sized handgun in a proper holster. But the flip side of that is that the Jetfire in my pocket beat the hell out of the 1911 I had left sitting on my desk.

JodyH
10-18-2011, 05:50 PM
If I can maximize the gear I'm using within the rules, that's just one less complication to worry about so I can focus more directly on my shooting. Because like Tam says, I'm a dirty, dirty gamerfag.
I try to maximize my gear within the constraints of what I could carry on a daily basis (hence shooting Limited due to my appendix carry position).
Then I take extra joy in beating gamerfags while handicapped.
;)

jetfire
10-18-2011, 06:39 PM
It's all a matter of perspective. You see a gamerfag with silly gear that's easily beatable, I see a C-class shooter who decided to get the right equipment out of the gate and wants to improve his shooting skills. The influencing factor is how we're approaching the shooting sports; and I'll be the first person to say that I approach shooting and guns as a fun game that could also benefit me in a dangerous situation. It's the same attitude I take towards my other two hobbies, trail climbing and physical fitness.

The thing though is that the serious "I'm training with my EDC gear" guys are cool too - I don't really care what a person's motivations are for coming to the USPSA/IDPA match. If they're safe and not a dick, I'm just happy that they're out there shooting. All too often I hear the tactical guys complaining about the gamers, and I just don't see the point. Why does it matter?

KeeFus
10-18-2011, 06:40 PM
I started shooting IDPA about 4 years ago. Prior to that I shot the PD qualifications when they came around which was initially 2 times per year and has since fell back to 1...yes I said one. I had a preconception that since I carried a pistol daily I had a hand up in the 'game'. So, on June 1, 2008 I showed up, already an IDPA member and ready to shoot a match then shoot the classifier after the match...at The Range in Oxford, NC...home of the Carolina Cup, which was like two weeks away.

With the Cup in full swing in June the SO's were particuarily observant of me and the way I handled my Beretta 92. I did ok (ok as in looking like I had just bought the pistol and showed up) at the match, even receiving an FTDR. Talk about a deflated ego even before the classifier. Going into the classifier I still had a notion that I would at least classify as a Sharpshooter...wrong again, Marksman. I took my skinned ass home to evaluate the whole competition thing.

I evaluated it this way. The training I had received up to that point (from my agency) left me seriously lacking in even the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. I decided to put my big boy britches on and continue on with competition because I realized it filled a void at work. Did I merge training into competition? Yes. Why? Because LEO annual training is not enough...I just found a way to make it fun while learning to operate under a little stress and practicing my manipulation of the weapon and magazines. Sure, IDPA has in it some 'tactics' but as a competitor you can only take those 'tactics' so far in the real world. It is, after all, a game.

Shooting IDPA, USPSA, et al is a competition, yes. I play the game to the best of my abilities with my gamer tools and shoot me first vest. When I'm at work I take those gun handling skills I learned in competition to work with me. I can see every year when we qualify where I used to be as a shooter...and I'm not going back to that level. We carry .45's at work and I have always attempted to shoot a similiar gun in competition. I used to carry a Glock 21...I shoot a G-17. With my current agency we carry Hk 45 USP Compacts and are switching to M&P .45 Mid-size...I am now transitioning away from the Glock to a M&P 4.25 Pro 9mm...essentially the same size as what we carry at work, just cheaper ammo.

JodyH
10-18-2011, 06:56 PM
It's all a matter of perspective. You see a gamerfag with silly gear that's easily beatable,
Incorrect assumption on your part.
I don't give a crap about YOUR gear.
I've RO'd IPSC for years, I've seen 'em all and no longer care what anyone shoots.

ToddG
10-18-2011, 07:01 PM
All too often I hear the tactical guys complaining about the gamers, and I just don't see the point. Why does it matter?

It does cut both ways, though. I've had more than one bad interaction with USPSA match staff because I wanted to be more the EDC guy and less the gamer. Whether it's explaining to me how wrong I shot the stage (why'd you stay behind the barricade?) or how my gear was set up (like the guy who tried to DQ me as unsafe because I had a concealment garment on), it's frustrating. And then when you start beating the minmax-gamer crowd, you come under even more scrutiny. SLG and I had a very long and annoying experience with a USPSA RO a few years back that was, literally, all about the RO's complete and utter dislike and ignorance over any handgun that wasn't a Glock or 1911.


I decided to put my big boy britches on and continue on with competition because I realized it filled a void at work.

... which makes you about as common as an honest politician. Seriously, kudos to you and anyone else who takes that step. Far, far more "professional" gun toters show up at a match, get their asses handed to them, and declare "it's not realistic" ... not because of some unrealistic rule, mind you, but because in their minds they cannot accept the reality that a bunch doctors and plumbers and convenience store clerks can shoot circles around them without breaking a sweat.

edited to add:




I don't give a crap about YOUR gear.


You really need to have a graphic artist change your avatar. It has the wrong finger sticking out. :cool:

jetfire
10-18-2011, 07:04 PM
Todd, I have to admit that I've seen it cut both ways, and it is shitty when the USPSA guys give the tactical guys a hard time because the tactical guys "aren't playing the game right" or whatever silly reason is used. I just want everyone to get along and give hugs and shit. I hate it when mommy and daddy fight.

Edit: I also want to point out that you shouldn't let Keith fool you with all his humble-guy talk. He finished 13th in ESP Master at the Cup this year and edged me by 2 seconds, although he was shooting a tiny-europellet and I a properly manly .45.

KeeFus
10-18-2011, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=ToddG;31445] ... not because of some unrealistic rule, mind you, but because in their minds they cannot accept the reality that a bunch doctors and plumbers and convenience store clerks can shoot circles around them without breaking a sweat.

QUOTE]

This was the biggest mental hurdle I had to pass.

rsa-otc
10-18-2011, 07:13 PM
Keith;

I felt the same way 3 years ago when I first shot an IDPA match. I had shot PPC in the late 70's making Master as well as taking 2 state championships in my classes before life got too busy & had to stop competing. Every class that I took over the years I was one of the top shooters or the top shooter in the class. So needless to say I thought I would do well in this venue. Just so happens the club I choose to start my IDPA experiance is the home of a 5 time national champion in my division, it was an eye opening experiance.

Odin Bravo One
10-18-2011, 07:45 PM
I'm not sure that I really fall into any category, but I tried IDPA once. I think I am better suited towards USPSA solely for the enjoyment of making lots of loud noises really fast. Then again, I still find firecrackers of varying sizes an amusing way to spend my day.

JodyH
10-18-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't shoot IDPA because they think my everyday carry method (AIWB) is an unfair advantage... I can live with that.

IPSC is a blast and our club has very few "tactical Teds" or "gamer fags", just a whole bunch of people who like to shoot and compete.

KeeFus
10-19-2011, 05:48 AM
Edit: I also want to point out that you shouldn't let Keith fool you with all his humble-guy talk. He finished 13th in ESP Master at the Cup this year and edged me by 2 seconds, although he was shooting a tiny-europellet and I a properly manly .45.

HA! Well, I did use a euro-pellet...but I got to meet two 5-gun masta's...:p. (Vogel & Caleb)

I am shooting CDP this year with my duty weapon along with factory ammo, not the mouse fart rounds that so often accompany some of my friends that shoot CDP...I just need to shoot the classifier. I will not be shooting with my duty gear. I'm reasonably sure I could deal with the holster (Safariland 6360) but the mag pouch with the button flap I can not. I like the idea of shooting with my duty weapon but the thought of losing time on a reload because of those flaps drives me insane. :mad:

jetfire
10-19-2011, 11:46 AM
Ugh, I can't imagine trying to stick a reload with a button flap mag pouch. I'll also be shooting CDP this year, so we'll have to rematch at the Cup!

Chuck Anderson
10-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Todd, sorry about your bad experience with a few small minded RO's. Every discipline is going to have people that bring discredit to it. I quit shooting the local tactical matches because they kept trying to tell me they were forcing proper tactics. Kind of like IDPA at times. I didn't agree with their tactics. Instead, everything became a whiny refrain of me being a gamer, waaaaaaa. Got tired of the whining and shoot mostly USPSA locally now. Most of the RO's I've shot with will give you as much input, as you want. I've shot USPSA from concealment before, I've shot matches left hand before, used my carry gun, whatever. Every now and then, normally in the winter, I like to break up the routine and I'll use a USPSA match as practice, with all the slicing of the pie, reloads behind cover, etc. When the RO's ask why I just tell them it's practice and they've always left me alone. If you run into an RO that tells you something that doesn't sound right, like a DQ for the cover garment, just tell them to show it to you in the rule book. If they are that unfamiliar with the rules that they don't realize it's legal, they aren't going to be able to show you anything.

If a shooter wants to use carry gear and tactics, their call. They won't win, at least at a real match with serious competitors. But for them they're getting out and shooting under pressure. If they want to max out their gear and perform at the top level, for that specific sport, their call. They still won't necessarily win, but they're pushing themselves to the limit of their capabilities.

theblacknight
10-19-2011, 06:06 PM
I'm getting the vibe that I prb have a skewed view on things cause the club I shoot at is pretty tight knit.


I'm also gathering that my draw times still suck with my carry holster last weekend.I got 4th overall GRrrrrr.



I shoot idpa because: C mores are gay, USPSA dosent like my stippling job, I dont have the cash to have a carry belt AND a ipsc wiener belt, IDPA are always cheaper, and the people who run them always seem to wanna shoot more after the match, where as USPSA guys want you in your car and gone unless your a member at that range.

jetfire
10-19-2011, 06:53 PM
You have a stippling job that's legal for IDPA but not legal for USPSA? This I've got to see, especially since stippling of any type is illegal for IDPA's Stock Service Pistol division.

theblacknight
10-19-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm ESP because of it.

For production, I have stippling in non approved areas ie in front of and behind the take down lever.

jetfire
10-19-2011, 08:50 PM
There's nothing that would prevent you from shooting that gun in Limited or L10; and you don't even need a "wiener" belt to play. JodyH shoots from AIWB in Limited and loads his mags to full capacity and does pretty well in Limited.

JeffJ
10-19-2011, 08:53 PM
I'm pretty sure you could shoot limited but the club that puts on matches can make a big difference in the overall experience so if you don't like the atmosphere at the USPSA matches then don't go. You also seem to have some sort of deep seated resentment for "gamer gear" and think that it will turn you into a homosexual so you should probably avoid that at all costs :)

John Hearne
10-19-2011, 09:23 PM
re: surprise stages, as joshs points out there is a huge problem with friends & teammates sharing information at major matches. The concept is great, but the execution is poor.

What would be the issue with knowing that there is an array of three targets but not knowing which one is a no-shoot or requires 4 instead of 2 rounds? I was told that Hackathorn would designate a target with a bandanna and it required six rounds. If the Bandanna was moved, it would be harder to cheat the blind stage. Seems like it could fix the issue of "dumping" a round to create an ideal reload point.

joshs
10-19-2011, 09:39 PM
What would be the issue with knowing that there is an array of three targets but not knowing which one is a no-shoot or requires 4 instead of 2 rounds? I was told that Hackathorn would designate a target with a bandanna and it required six rounds. If the Bandanna was moved, it would be harder to cheat the blind stage. Seems like it could fix the issue of "dumping" a round to create an ideal reload point.

It is almost impossible to require competitors to shoot different targets, yet still present the competitors with exactly the same challenge. For example, if moving the threat or no shoot requires a competitor to take an extra step or pie a little further out of cover to engage, then the CoF doesn't present an equal challenge to each competitor.

theblacknight
10-19-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm pretty sure you could shoot limited but the club that puts on matches can make a big difference in the overall experience so if you don't like the atmosphere at the USPSA matches then don't go. You also seem to have some sort of deep seated resentment for "gamer gear" and think that it will turn you into a homosexual so you should probably avoid that at all costs :)


You keep that cosmo magazine level psychology out of my gun talk!

and if I ever shoot USPSA, they just let me shoot with the production guys since Im not a member.

jetfire
10-19-2011, 10:18 PM
Hey, you're the one constantly talking about wieners.

jlw
10-19-2011, 10:46 PM
HA! Well, I did use a euro-pellet...but I got to meet two 5-gun masta's...:p. (Vogel & Caleb)

I am shooting CDP this year with my duty weapon along with factory ammo, not the mouse fart rounds that so often accompany some of my friends that shoot CDP...I just need to shoot the classifier. I will not be shooting with my duty gear. I'm reasonably sure I could deal with the holster (Safariland 6360) but the mag pouch with the button flap I can not. I like the idea of shooting with my duty weapon but the thought of losing time on a reload because of those flaps drives me insane. :mad:

I'm using my duty gear for IDPA right now; however, I'm using an open top mag carrier and a 6377 holster. I have a 6377 for each of my service pistols and use the MLS attachment system; so, switching to a different pistol takes about 10 seconds if I so choose. This is the setup that I wear with a class B uniform or any call outs. I also have a receiver plate on a paddle and simply switch the holster to the paddle for office dwelling.

I've also shot a sanctioned match using my class A leather gear and a revolver.

ToddG
10-20-2011, 08:15 AM
What would be the issue with knowing that there is an array of three targets but not knowing which one is a no-shoot or requires 4 instead of 2 rounds? I was told that Hackathorn would designate a target with a bandanna and it required six rounds. If the Bandanna was moved, it would be harder to cheat the blind stage. Seems like it could fix the issue of "dumping" a round to create an ideal reload point.

Right off the bat, the first problem I see with it is reload position. If you walk into that room with four rounds left in your gun after engaging, say, the first room's targets you can have one of three outcomes:


T1 2 shots, T2 2 shots, reload, T3 6 shots
T1 2 shots, T2 2 shots reload 4 shots, T3 2 shots
T1 2 shots reload 4 shots, T2 2 shots, T3 2 shots


The guy who gets #1 has a huge advantage because he engages three targets while #2 and #3 have, in essence, four separate target engagements (since they have to shoot the 6-shot target both before and after the reload). That's a difference of probably a quarter to half a second right there.

Plus, at least when I've done those kinds of stages with Ken, you still get a walk through and see where the targets are, etc. It's just that one or more will be designated the "hard to kill" target. And my explanation about reload parity notwithstanding, I don't have a lot of heartburn with that. That's not really a surprise stage in my mind. A surprise stage is when you don't get to see the field in advance. So if your teammate shoots through and then can tell you where the targets are and aren't, you save time because you're not searching for stuff, etc.

This isn't theoretical. It was so common a problem in IDPA that they stopped allowing surprise stages.

KeeFus
10-20-2011, 12:55 PM
I'm using my duty gear for IDPA right now; however, I'm using an open top mag carrier and a 6377 holster. I have a 6377 for each of my service pistols and use the MLS attachment system; so, switching to a different pistol takes about 10 seconds if I so choose. This is the setup that I wear with a class B uniform or any call outs. I also have a receiver plate on a paddle and simply switch the holster to the paddle for office dwelling.

I've also shot a sanctioned match using my class A leather gear and a revolver.

Our agency doesn't supply anything other than a mag pouch with a flap. I have flattly refused to shoot our current pistol/holster combo in commpetition because I can not be competitive with it...the shot timer don't lie. I went to my admin and asked if I could carry my G-17 and a level III holster and was refused. Anyway, now that we are changing to the M&P (get mine tomorrow) I will shoot it in competition...albeit without the flaps on the mag pouch. The Safariland 6377 is the 6360 (our new holster), minus the rotating hood so I will keep it as close as possible...and frankly, if that too is too slow I will purchase a kydex OWB from D&D holster.

jlw
10-20-2011, 07:45 PM
Our agency doesn't supply anything other than a mag pouch with a flap. I have flattly refused to shoot our current pistol/holster combo in commpetition because I can not be competitive with it...the shot timer don't lie. I went to my admin and asked if I could carry my G-17 and a level III holster and was refused. Anyway, now that we are changing to the M&P (get mine tomorrow) I will shoot it in competition...albeit without the flaps on the mag pouch. The Safariland 6377 is the 6360 (our new holster), minus the rotating hood so I will keep it as close as possible...and frankly, if that too is too slow I will purchase a kydex OWB from D&D holster.

I have a 6360 for a G37 with light attached in my box o' gear. There is an additional thumb guard (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6006) available for the 6377 that actually makes it the same level of retention as the 6360. I have experimented with it on one holster, and I think it is a little more intuitive than the rolling hood on the 6360.

We get to pick our own duty gear.

theblacknight
10-21-2011, 03:18 PM
Hey, you're the one constantly talking about wieners.

http://biggovernment.com/files/2011/06/4cae6032-ff85-4e4a-aab8-59ee6bfe4f9d.jpg

John Hearne
10-21-2011, 08:49 PM
The best open top magazine carrier I've found for duty use is the Akers 616. It features two points to adjust tension on the magazines and it allows an excellent index on the magazines. I've had mine since 2002 and have never had any issues with it. It's retained magazines despite car crashes, foot chases, etc.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-77013239018428_2178_36751031