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JDM
01-08-2013, 02:57 PM
I am intrigued by the idea of a small visible laser on my carbine. Something like this:

http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/rail-master/01-3460

I have zero experience with visible lasers on rifles, and I'm not sure they are a useful thing. Curious to hear people's experiences, and the pros and cons.

Sparks2112
01-08-2013, 04:32 PM
I am intrigued by the idea of a small visible laser on my carbine. Something like this:

http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/rail-master/01-3460

I have zero experience with visible lasers on rifles, and I'm not sure they are a useful thing. Curious to hear people's experiences, and the pros and cons.

The IR ones sure work good with NVGs. ;) I've no experience with visible ones. Maybe Sean will chime in.

orionz06
01-08-2013, 05:11 PM
If you want to borrow a red version let me know.

TCinVA
01-09-2013, 08:42 AM
Cliff's notes version of my 2 cents:

Visible lasers on carbines can certainly be useful. They're most useful if you can't get a decent cheek weld. Those who can't typically are stuck using equipment like HAZMAT gear in concert with the rifle. Being stuck with a fixed stock and/or a long barrel also tends to contribute to a requirement to get the gun into funny positions to make some shots in tight locations.

If you have a good reflex style optic on the rifle already, the visible laser isn't likely to give you much, in my opinion. If you've got irons and you intend to use the rifle mainly as a close-range home defense weapon, the laser has some utility. A reflex optic would serve you better, but they can be more expensive than lasers.

JMS
01-09-2013, 10:46 AM
...plus working out your hand-jive in terms of activiation, presuming you're mounting both a light and laser, particularly since the one cited doesn't appear to have a remote-activation capability. Mounting that one where you can direct-activate it may require that you move your light (if present) AND your means of activiating it, so that you don't have to make radical alterations of your hand position to activate either one. You don't want a Rubick's Cube.

I'm presuming the presence of a light, already. If the laser's to be the only activable thing hung on the forend, that of course simplifies matters in regard to hand-jive. :p Insert usual admonitions about reduced-vis conditions and the need to identify targets with light, here....

There's a certain if-the-optic-goes-down utility to them, just like BUIS.

Going with green is a good call. More likely to be useful in full-lit conditions than red, though red can get you to about 25m in full sunlight (usually not much more).

Device-specific, I do NOT like the looks of that recoil lug and how it makes the device interface with the rail slot, but have zero time on that thing, so for all I know it's very robust.

JDM
01-09-2013, 11:00 AM
The linked laser was just used as an example. I don't even know if I'd buy that particular one, but it seemed prudent to give an example.

The rifle it would go on has an Aimpoint, and a TLR-1 at 12:00.

Thanks for the input guys. i'm beginning to think there really isn't a reason for this thing aside from "cool".

Tamara
01-09-2013, 11:16 AM
I have one of the CTC Railmasters*. It's a good quality product, as one would expect from Crimson Trace, but it's a lot more viable on a pistol carried in a holster than out on a carbine rail. The activation paddles seem to be just waiting to cause laser NDs as the weapon bangs around into stuff.

(*They were passing them out at that Midnight 3-Gun match. I didn't get the thing on the gun and zeroed in time and wound up running the carbine with just the light and the dot.)

Dave J
01-09-2013, 11:24 AM
FWIW, I've never considered a visible laser particularly useful or necessary on a carbine for shooting.

However, they are a wonderful tool for influencing people to stop what they're doing and comply with instructions. IIRC, Larry Vickers called them a "form of communication that transcends all language and cultural barriers" or something to that effect.

That matched my observations from overseas with the PEQ-15. You put the red spot on someone, and they would just stop, STFU, and get really compliant. I guess they'd all seen the movies too.

I'd be interested to hear from our LEO members if it works the same on bad guys here in the states.

ETA: obviously, the circumstances in which one would be justified in pointing a weapon at someone here in the states are much more limited than for guys in a combat zone. For that reason, lasers aren't a high priority for me on my personal weapons, although I could see them being useful in certain instances.

JRas
01-09-2013, 12:07 PM
I want one too, blame the videos on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMUibF3mqSw

tanner
01-09-2013, 12:30 PM
FWIW, I've never considered a visible laser particularly useful or necessary on a carbine for shooting.

I'd be interested to hear from our LEO members if it works the same on bad guys here in the states.



From my Taser? Hell yes. Don't have one on my pistol or carbine though...

I work for a mid sized dept, around 70 patrol officers. The first year we got Tasers, there were dozens of deployments. Currently we are down to a handful each year. People know what they are now.

But the red dot on the chest sends a signal, no doubt. I recommend them on pocket guns for the deterrent effect.

SamuelBLong
12-12-2013, 05:32 PM
Bom... You're always welcome to come play. I just got this setup finished last week and noticed this thread while digging for everyone's recommendations for variable optics.

I find the laser quite useful as a secondary system should the t1 go out. Activate the laser and look for the green dot through the optic. It's also very helpful in moving targets.

PWS mk114mod1.
Dbal on the Unity Fusion Hub w/ offset Surefire m600

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/13/e7a8y3as.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/13/upareqe6.jpg

KevinB
12-13-2013, 01:09 PM
Good for stuff from vehicle or Aircraft, as well in Gas Mask, however in a gas scenario the laser does not do all that much than look cool in the smoke...


Green while more bright does not seem to convey lethal force that red does - from a LE/Mil application I believe red is a better option due to that.

I tried for years to get CT to make a small PDW sized vis laser -- well 5 years after I started and 2 after I gave up - they did...
But it is still about 2-3x the size I wanted it to be...

littlejerry
06-21-2017, 12:04 PM
Bumping this thread. I'm interested in a laser from a gamer perspective: I have a 2.5-10 primary optic and I find the offset iron/RDS solutions a little snag-prone(rmrs are too much money at the moment). I'm interested in mounting a small laser where a front BUIS would normally be and using that at short(<20 yards) range the same way offset RDS are being used.

Any experience here?

Poconnor
06-21-2017, 12:43 PM
I have long wanted an AR rail that was low enough that I could mount a surefire X400 at 12:00

Default.mp3
06-21-2017, 02:20 PM
Bumping this thread. I'm interested in a laser from a gamer perspective: I have a 2.5-10 primary optic and I find the offset iron/RDS solutions a little snag-prone(rmrs are too much money at the moment). I'm interested in mounting a small laser where a front BUIS would normally be and using that at short(<20 yards) range the same way offset RDS are being used.

Any experience here?I'm not aware of any quality laser units that would be cheaper than an RMR (particularly since Cabela's still has their 350 USD sale (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=2047219&type=product&WT.ac=YMAL-2047219&WT.z_pg_ref=prd1198504) running for the Gen1 RMRs, albeit on backorder, though I've heard people already receiving backordered orders). Beyond that, even 20 yards would be a stretch to see in broad daylight with your typical Class 3R (formerly known as Class IIIa) laser, even if it was a green model.

If you're really into the concept, the Crimson Trace RailMaster is probably the most vetted candidate that's not going to destroy your budget; the LaserMax UniMax seems to check the right boxes, but, well, it's a LaserMax. The Steiner OTAL-C (Steiner bought out LDI) is the perfect form factor, but only comes in red; there is an OTAL-A, which comes with a green laser, but it's almost double the price of the OTAL-C. The DBAL-I2 Dual Spectrum is around the same price as the OTAL-C, and comes in green, but is a fair bit bulkier. Either way, the cheapest of the Steiner products will still be about as much as an Aimpoint H-1 in price.

Long gun visible only lasers simply just don't have any real good options right now. Shit sucks.

Why not go with a cheaper RDS, like a Vortex Viper or Venom?

BillSWPA
06-21-2017, 02:25 PM
I have not tried a laser on a carbine, but use Crimson Trace red lasers on most of my pocket pistols.

The red laser is a huge help for accuracy indoors, or outdoors in diminished light. When outdoors during the day, it is useless except up very close. A green laser is likely to be more useful on a carbine. A good illuminated optic is likely to provide visibility under a wider variety of conditions than many lasers.

Crimson Trace makes a neat, but expensive, laser/light combination for an AR with the device controlled wirelessly from the pistol grip.

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/ar-type-rifles/01-5560

I am aware of one carbine user who mounted a red dot sight and a laser on his AR, and sighted both in at 100 yards. The laser was part of a laser-light-vertical foregrip combination mounted below the barrel. At distances less than 100 yards, the point of impact would be centered between the red dot and the laser.

Odin Bravo One
06-21-2017, 03:10 PM
I'll come back to this later tonight...... this is one of those that is not conducive to phone typing in the parking lot.


I suppose I don't have much to add actually.

GJM
06-21-2017, 03:55 PM
Bumping this thread. I'm interested in a laser from a gamer perspective: I have a 2.5-10 primary optic and I find the offset iron/RDS solutions a little snag-prone(rmrs are too much money at the moment). I'm interested in mounting a small laser where a front BUIS would normally be and using that at short(<20 yards) range the same way offset RDS are being used.

Any experience here?

Gaming, I used a Crimson Trace CMR-206 green rail laser this past season shooting PCC. So did a number of my friends. Limited use, but helpful for butt on belt starts to help index first shot presentation, support shoulder shooting, weird positions, and some shooting the run.

Here is my set-up:

17497

Here is an example where the laser helps with the butt on belt start, to help index the first presentation. Maybe only a few thousands, but every bit helps gaming.


https://youtu.be/0Vd_t2fohfU

I am using the RDS here, but you can see how the green laser looks:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Cuhz7wgTY

Norville
06-24-2017, 01:05 PM
I have the CMR 206 mounted on my MPX for USPSA. For me, under barrels and parallel works best. It helps with close offsets and difficult leans as well as a rapid first shot.

littlejerry
06-24-2017, 01:19 PM
I'm not aware of any quality laser units that would be cheaper than an RMR (particularly since Cabela's still has their 350 USD sale (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=2047219&type=product&WT.ac=YMAL-2047219&WT.z_pg_ref=prd1198504) running for the Gen1 RMRs, albeit on backorder, though I've heard people already receiving backordered orders). Beyond that, even 20 yards would be a stretch to see in broad daylight with your typical Class 3R (formerly known as Class IIIa) laser, even if it was a green model.

If you're really into the concept, the Crimson Trace RailMaster is probably the most vetted candidate that's not going to destroy your budget; the LaserMax UniMax seems to check the right boxes, but, well, it's a LaserMax. The Steiner OTAL-C (Steiner bought out LDI) is the perfect form factor, but only comes in red; there is an OTAL-A, which comes with a green laser, but it's almost double the price of the OTAL-C. The DBAL-I2 Dual Spectrum is around the same price as the OTAL-C, and comes in green, but is a fair bit bulkier. Either way, the cheapest of the Steiner products will still be about as much as an Aimpoint H-1 in price.

Long gun visible only lasers simply just don't have any real good options right now. Shit sucks.

Why not go with a cheaper RDS, like a Vortex Viper or Venom?

The Cabela's RMR deal is damn good, but still quite a bit more than what I can get a CT railmaster for. Plus the cost of a mount.

I guess I'm surprised there arent any good options out there. Seems like green laser tech is relatively cheap.

I'm not enamored with offset T1s because they feel yuge once they are high enough to see through. The receiver mounted options I've played with also result in my left eye being blocked by the primary optic, limiting FOV and killing one of the big benefits of a RDS.

I may pick up a railmaster and experiment at some point.

Odin Bravo One
06-24-2017, 06:30 PM
I have a rail master on the bulk of my ARs. They are not ATPIALs. But they work in the same scenarios. You just have to understand they don't hold up to abuse, and it also serves to advertise your location. If it's an RDS or laser, I'd choose RDS. If it is RDS AND laser, and you have the funds, and desire, who the fuck am I to talk you out of it. It has a niche role, and works well for engaging targets in less conventional shooting positions.

Bobcat
06-24-2017, 09:43 PM
I have a rail master on the bulk of my ARs. They are not ATPIALs. But they work in the same scenarios. You just have to understand they don't hold up to abuse, and it also serves to advertise your location. If it's an RDS or laser, I'd choose RDS. If it is RDS AND laser, and you have the funds, and desire, who the fuck am I to talk you out of it. It has a niche role, and works well for engaging targets in less conventional shooting positions.

I have a few lasergrips in red, and a green rail mounted laser.
The green is a lot brighter, and will light up a room, and will light up dust particles in the air.

Odin Bravo One
06-24-2017, 10:44 PM
I much prefer the red for that very reason. And under NODs, all lasers look green.

littlejerry
06-24-2017, 11:06 PM
I have a rail master on the bulk of my ARs. They are not ATPIALs. But they work in the same scenarios. You just have to understand they don't hold up to abuse, and it also serves to advertise your location. If it's an RDS or laser, I'd choose RDS. If it is RDS AND laser, and you have the funds, and desire, who the fuck am I to talk you out of it. It has a niche role, and works well for engaging targets in less conventional shooting positions.

Sean,

Just to be clear, when you are saying RDS or laser, are you talking primary or secondary optic? Or "yes", and a vis laser is only good as a tertiary optic in your opinion?

Odin Bravo One
06-24-2017, 11:11 PM
RDS is my primary, laser is secondary. Irons are third. In my hierarchy anyway.

Except at night. Then laser become primary when using NODs, whether hunting critters or hunting assholes, laser/NODs is the best method.

But if I didn't have an RDS on my rifle, I'd buy that before bothering with a laser.

Did that clear it up Jerry?