Ultralight 223 or 9mm Carbine

[TGS]

So, I'd like to buy a lightweight carbine of some type for a family member who is stricken with fibromyalgia, thus weak and sensitive to pain. My 14.5" AR15 is too heavy. A 12ga shotgun is a good weight, but if fired can arguably be as dangerous for her health as the attacker due to recoil (ok, hyperbole, but you get the point). A .22 is a good weight and low recoil, but the reliability of such is seriously in question. So, I guess what I'm looking for is the carbine version of Claude Werner's "Old Man Gun."

What the weapon does not need to do:
Run hard through a carbine course
Last tens of thousands of rounds before major component replacement
Have better than 4 MOA accuracy

Something that is 223, or even 9mm, would be preferable at ~5lbs. I do not have the money to build an expensive custom AR15, ala Rob Jensen's awesome "Featherweight" rifle for his wife, if you are familiar with such. Looking at a grand tops on price.

What I'm looking at right now is the Kel-Tec Sub-2000, the Kel-Tec SU16, or a franken-AR using a Cav Arms polymer lower and ~.55" turned barrel....the advantage with the AR15 is that components could be upgraded to higher quality or lighter weight items as time goes on.

None of these are what we around here would consider to be optimum for our needs or wants, but I'm not looking for a fighting-grade AR for duty or expecting these to perform as such, either. I'm wondering if any of you have experience with them and can comment on their use in the context I've provided. Also, if you have experience with some other carbine that might fit this "mission," I'd love to hear. For instance, I looked around at alternative options, such as a pump-action rifle, but found their weight at 7.5lbs to be more than what I'm shooting for. I realize that 9mm carbines are somewhat a thing of the past, so if you have experience with one I haven't mentioned also bring that up.

And, of course, if any of you have a similar mission for an ultra-light backpacking semi-auto/repeating rifle or some similar concept, I think that would be interesting to hear about.

[Kevin B.]

I had a similar need for my wife. That role is being filled by an M&P 15-22. I understand about the reliability concerns about a rim fire, but mine has had no issues in more than 2000 rounds.

Alternatively, have you considered the Beretta CX-4 Storm? I put about 500 rounds through a 9mm one a few years back and it ran without issue. I was not really a fan of the platform, but it may be a viable option for you and Beretta 92 mags are plentiful.

[JAD]

Since black rifles of any sort are going to be a little awkward logistically for a while, I might suggest having a look for a Win 94 in .357. Just as light as my MT6530 (lighter, even), and buying .357 is a lot easier than .223 right now. A marlin 336 in .30-30 might work really well too -- I don't know what their recoil is like.

A very thorough deburr and this refinish of the loop might be necessary in light of the person's affliction.

[SeriousStudent]

Is it still possible to track down a Marlin 9mm Camp Carbine?

Pretty simple design, it's a 9mm blowback. The mag supply and parts might be problematic, though.

[TGS]

All great comments so far, thanks.

As for availability of evil black rifles, consider this the brain-storming phase. I'd like to consider all options.

As for the Beretta Cx4, I actually know someone with one and that had slipped my mind. It's more expensive and 2lbs heavier than the Sub-2000, which I have read is actually decent for what it is and in the running for Kel-Tecs most functional, best designed/produced firearm. I'll have to get more opinions on these two.

As for the Camp Carbine, it looks like they're on gunbroker for $800-$850 as well as mags being available. What's the opinion on their reliability?

[Kyle Reese]

All great comments so far, thanks.

As for availability of evil black rifles, consider this the brain-storming phase. I'd like to consider all options.

As for the Beretta Cx4, I actually know someone with one and that had slipped my mind. It's more expensive and 2lbs heavier than the Sub-2000, which I have read is actually decent for what it is. I'll have to get more opinions on these two.

As for the Camp Carbine, it looks like they're on gunbroker for $800-$850 as well as mags being available. What's the opinion on their reliability?

I owned a Camp Carbine about a decade ago, and was not impressed with it's reliability. I sold it for a loss and considered myself lucky.

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, I see them (Camp Carbines) on the local for sale boards from time to time. But reliability has also plagued the Camp Carbines, in addition to the spare parts, accessories, etc.

The lever .357/.38 is a sound option. Rifle weight is a little heavier than the 5# desired weight, but recoil with .38's is nill. .357 Mag is pretty negligble but if it is too much, you are getting decent velocity out of the .38 and 16" barrel.

An M&P15/22 meets the weight, and I have no issues with recommeding based on it's reliability. Certainly .22LR is not an ideal caliber, but it is still better than .0000 caliber.

30-30 recoil is much like that of an AK. Snappy and sharp. Not excessive or painful by any means...........unless you have a pre-existing physical condition. Not what I would recommend for someone where recoil is a serious consideration.

I'm not a fan of the Kel-Tec's. They are not all lemons, and usually if it is going to suck, they at least have the decency to suck right out of the box. But the 16 is a snappy gun, and I just have serious doubts that they would hold up and/or work when they needed to. I know this gun is not going to a carbine/SMG course, but the KT's are cheaply made, and have a real chincy feel about them. Not for my loved ones...........

[GJM]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

[TGS]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

A skinny barrel (.55") AR is definitely something I want to consider.....in general, the preference would be a 223/5.56 instead of 9mm for obvious reasons. But, from what I'm seeing, an AR15 isn't going to get ~6lbs without either 1) Expensive components, or 2) Components of questionable quality, such as the Cav Arms polymer lower. A Cav Arms polymer lower might be just the ticket for this job, or it might be a raging POS by any standard. I don't know.

The Mini 14 is a consideration as well. At 6lbs, depending on the balance, it might be a good option. How would you describe the balance of the weapon?

The person I know with the Cx-4 also has a Mini-14 and Mini-30. I need to get up with him.

GJM, are all your experiences with ultralight backpacking guns limited to 12ga shotties and full caliber rifles, or have you any experience using lightweight 5.56 rifles as well? What about any social circles you find yourself part of that might.....what would they say if they were here?

[JHC]

While the .44/.357 lever guns are pretty light weight, the Marlin 30-30 is quite heavy, as I was reminded of as I was handling mine yesterday. How about a skinny barrel Colt upper AR or a Mini 14?

Agree, Marlin 336's feel a pound or more heavier than a Win 94. My experience around a couple of Marlin model 60's is they ran extremely reliably (Old Man's Gun?). I love mine. One can dump 5 or 10 rounds into a tea cup at 7 yards in a flash.

[Kyle Reese]

I wouldn't recommend a Mini-14 as a boat anchor.

[JHC]

I sure wish somebody would re-tool up and start making a high quality IMI Timberwolf pump in .357 again. That was like 5.5 lbs. Wish I'd a bought one in the day.

[TGS]

I wouldn't recommend a Mini-14 as a boat anchor.

That bad?

From what I understood they were decent rifles as long as you didn't expect them to perform over a high round count course or in muddy conditions. The new ones are supposedly 2+MOA guns with the thicker barrels, but even the older skinny barrel series that produce patterns at 100 yards would be suitable for this niche. Any other experiences with them? I was under the impression you owned a couple, and liked'em for what they were.

[JHC]

Back in the late '70's I had one and it ran great; trouble free. Nothing like an intensive carbine course worth of stress but a good bit of rec shooting including ripping off a few mag dumps.

[peterb]

If this is for short-range home defense use, maybe a semi-auto 20 gauge shotgun? Federal makes a low-recoil #4 buck load in 20 gauge that might be tolerable in a gas-operated semi.
Something like this? http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-autoloading-sa-20-pistol-grip/75781
Big downside is the low capacity, and the manipulation required to reload.

[Odin Bravo One]

I wouldn't recommend a Mini-14 as a boat anchor.

I don't know.............the Hk Mk23 did a pretty decent job in that role, seems the Mini-14 with greater mass, weight, and size would perform well.

[Al T.]

That role is being filled by an M&P 15-22. I understand about the reliability concerns about a rim fire, but mine has had no issues in more than 2000 rounds.

I'm at 5K and aside from one (1) CCI failure to pop (and the first issue with CCI I've encountered), no issues. .22LR will penetrate deeply enough to be a very, very viable threat from a defender.

[SeriousStudent]

Bad news on the Camp Carbine, then. Rats.

One of the members here (Ridgeback303) has a lever-action .357. I was looking it over this weekend. It certainly handled well. It has a narrower profile, which might be easier for smaller hands. I think it is a Rossi, and I think she got it for about $350 from Big 5 Sporting Goods. I really liked it with the after-market rear peep sight.

TGS, you might shoot her a PM for more details, if it interests you.

[GJM]

I have a half dozen Ruger mini-14 magazines, but no mini. If the "evil characteristics" definition were reduced by one, a mini might look better?

[Argus]

Not sure how rigid your caliber requirements are (9mm or .223), but how about an M1 carbine? Seems like the surplus ones still turn up now and then (or at least they did a few weeks ago), as well as the new Auto-Ordnance/Kahr ones (don't know about their quality though).

[TGS]

Not sure how rigid your caliber requirements are (9mm or .223), but how about an M1 carbine? Seems like the surplus ones still turn up now and then (or at least they did a few weeks ago), as well as the new Auto-Ordnance/Kahr ones (don't know about their quality though).

M1 Carbines are banned by name in NJ, unfortunately. Otherwise, it would be in the running.


I have a half dozen Ruger mini-14 magazines, but no mini. If the "evil characteristics" definition were reduced by one, a mini might look better?

Whatcha' mean? FWIW, unlike the M1 Carbine, the Mini-14 is legal here. Go figure.

[Joe in PNG]

Didn't Ruger also make a 9mm semiautomatic that's kind of similar to a Camp Carbine? The PC 9, if I remember correctly.

[Odin Bravo One]

M1 Carbine, is also really snappy. Of course, since it is no bueno in NJ, it's a non-starter. But for others considering it for similar circumstances, recoil sensitivity would have the be carefully evaluated. What we consider "nominal" or "easily controlled" often times is not when dealing with shooters with disabilities.

If a .357 carbine is available, it is worth a test drive with some .38's.

[R.M.T.]

+1 for .357 carbine. Choose her loads carefully, we chronographed some of the federal 357B which is a 125 hollow point and it was going 1850 fps out of an 18 inch barrel. Now I would have to defer to Doc on where that would fragment on impact.

[nalesq]

What we consider "nominal" or "easily controlled" often times is not when dealing with shooters with disabilities.

The Sub-2000 falls into the above category, in my opinion, because the charging handle is tiny and awkwardly located and the recoil spring is rather stiff. It's a bit kicky as well, for someone unaccustomed to recoil.

Pistol-caliber lever-action carbines are fun and easy to actually shoot, but it takes a bit of training to be able to decock one safely on demand, especially under stress. There is also the matter of having to work the lever vigorously enough and consistently enough to cycle the weapon reliably. Again, doable with sufficient training, but perhaps not as easy to deal with as a semi-auto of some kind. I also don't know of an easy way to mount a light to a lever-action carbine, which I would want for a defensive shoulder-fired weapon.

If I wanted to give someone who was not going to train a whole lot some kind of lightweight shoulder-fired weapon that was as easy to deal with as possible, and fun and cheap to shoot (thereby encouraging at least some periodic training), I think it might be some kind of .22LR AR-ish carbine, with a mounted laser/light activated simply by gripping the fore-end properly.

[JHC]

My 5.5 lb Rossi .357, with magnum loads bit in recoil worse than my 1894 with some .44 magnum loads. Could just be the 1894 has a better stock; its been soooo many years since I shot a .357 Marlin I can't recall. But IIRC .357 Marlins are known for more feeding picky-ness than the .44. And especially with shorter .38 specials. But the recoil is really soft with those.

[Archimagirus]

I realize this is a very out of the box suggestion, but what about a Remington 7615 pump action? With the pistol grip and the ability to take AR mags, I would think a pump action would be easier for her to work than a lever action. Add an Inidine Recoil buffer to it, and I would imagine recoil would be nil. And commence to tearing this suggestion apart.....NOW!

ETA: Having discussed this in another thread, I am somewhat recoil sensitive myself. I added the aforementioned Inidine buffer to an 870 and it works like gang busters. I have not had a chance to put a lot of rounds through it yet, but at least initially, it really soaks up the recoil.

[Cacafuego]

Saiga .410?
If a .22 is in the running and cost is an issue. why not a 10/22?

[Odin Bravo One]

I realize this is a very out of the box suggestion, but what about a Remington 7615 pump action? With the pistol grip and the ability to take AR mags, I would think a pump action would be easier for her to work than a lever action. Add an Inidine Recoil buffer to it, and I would imagine recoil would be nil. And commence to tearing this suggestion apart.....NOW!

ETA: Having discussed this in another thread, I am somewhat recoil sensitive myself. I added the aforementioned Inidine buffer to an 870 and it works like gang busters. I have not had a chance to put a lot of rounds through it yet, but at least initially, it really soaks up the recoil.

Walking in empty at 7 lbs..........2 (probably important) lbs over the OP's weight requirement. Add ammo........also looking at length of pull issues, and length of action. Examining the disability from a non-medical professional point of view, I think the OP is on the right track with the requirements. 7615 doesn't fit. Too long, too heavy, too much action to cycle for this type of condition.

So back to the question.........what does fit?

Hmmmmmmmm

ETA...........MP5? It would have to be loaded prior to any indication of pending festivities, but can be safely stored in Condition 1. It is relatively light, and can be made lighter. Rails are available for lights, lasers, optics. Recoil is tame by most standards. Doesn't require to be firmly held to avoid malfunctions. History of high reliability. High capacity magazines available.

But alas........they are expensive, even in non-NFA configurations.

[TGS]

Re: pump action rifle. I actually did consider that......I would think a pump action rifle in 223-243 would be a better option than a lever gun. Unfortunately, as Sean mentioned, they're too heavy from what I'm seeing. If they came in 22" barrels but were only 6lbs, that wouldn't be a problem as I have the means to cut and recrown a barrel. FWIW, if it's shooting a handgun cartridge, I see no reason to buy a lever-action over a semi-auto like a Beretta Cx4 or HK94 clone. Well, except for the whole HK94 clone price-tag. And, frankly, if I buy someone an HK94 clone, I'm probably going to steal it often enough that it wouldn't be providing them much service. :o

Re: ".22 being in the running." Well, I wasn't considering that in the original post. The thing is...if an AR15 style rifle is in the running, then why not get a .223 instead of a 22? You could say price, but a similar weight 223 from DPMS costs only $100 more (normal pricing..but it's not like AR styled 22s are easy to get right now, either). Now, you might think, "DPMS?! No Way!" And that would be valid in the context of DPMS vs BCM/DD/Colt/Noveske, but I fail to see how an AR styled .22 is going to be such a better choice than a DPMS in terms of quality or reliability being they're not subjected to the rigors of BCM/DD/Noveske/Colt, either.

So, what I'm saying is that if we're down to considering an AR styled 22, I wouldn't see why a lightweight, cheap DPMS wouldn't be considered as well since we've already settled on a standard lower than Colt/Noveske/DD/BCM as it is. I could stake the gas key and castle nut myself, and I don't imagine the parts materiel and overgassed system would be a problem being it's a light use gun and not expected to last tens of thousands of rounds. It's a shame that availability is a problem. A $459 BCM upper with the barrel turned to .55", on top of a Cav Arms lower could be a good cheap LW build. Or, maybe a S&W M&P Sport with a .55" bbl on top of a Cav Arms lower. Thoughts on a budget lightweight AR15 build?

Re: Saiga-410.... If that weight range were applicable, then this thread wouldn't exist.

A 20ga pump or semi could be a very good choice as was mentioned. I grew up hunting with a 20ga SxS, but for the life of me I can't remember what its recoil was like. I have a Knoxx CompStock on the way for my Mossberg 500 12ga. The CompStock, in addition to a 20ga, might be a great combo. We'll see when I get it set up.

[Archimagirus]

Walking in empty at 7 lbs..........2 (probably important) lbs over the OP's weight requirement. Add ammo........also looking at length of pull issues, and length of action. Examining the disability from a non-medical professional point of view, I think the OP is on the right track with the requirements. 7615 doesn't fit. Too long, too heavy, too much action to cycle for this type of condition.

Touché salesman, touché. I had such a hard time figuring out if they were even still made I did not look at the weight. The 7615 variant I was thinking about had an adjustable stock, so LOP would not be an issue in my mind.

Back to the drawing board for me.

[Haraise]

Sounds like one of the few reasonable applications of the Bushmaster Carbon-15, at 5.5 lbs. It's the weight out front that really matters, so chopping the barrel to 10.5 and running it as an SBR would make it much more handy...

I've heard blowback operated rifles have more felt recoil than you'd expect for their calibers. Just one thing to watch out for.

[1986s4]

Before the recent shooting I saw pistol caliber carbines for sale in my area based on the AR15 that fed from a Glock magazine. Looked interesting but they have dried up for now. Don't remember the make, sorry.

[TGS]

Sounds like one of the few reasonable applications of the Bushmaster Carbon-15, at 5.5 lbs. It's the weight out front that really matters, so chopping the barrel to 10.5 and running it as an SBR would make it much more handy...

I've heard blowback operated rifles have more felt recoil than you'd expect for their calibers. Just one thing to watch out for.

I looked into the Carbon-15, actually. Unlike a regular Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms, ect, the problem with the Carbon is that I haven't found a single instance from a credible/believable person of the Carbon-15 actually functioning properly if even on a light firing schedule. For the "old man gun" niche, I'll fully consider a weapon that will choke during a high round count class or fall apart under a heavy firing schedule as long as it works properly on a light firing schedule and won't fall apart for a couple thousand rounds....that describes the majority of commercial-grade AR15s with the addition of a blue Springco buffer spring, H/H2 buffer, and staked gas key/castle nut. The Carbon-15 doesn't fall into that category, from what I can tell. The Kel-Tec SU16 would be a better weapon in almost every way, from what I've read thus far around the gunternet.

[nalesq]

Re: ".22 being in the running." Well, I wasn't considering that in the original post. The thing is...if an AR15 style rifle is in the running, then why not get a .223 instead of a 22? You could say price, but a similar weight 223 from DPMS costs only $100 more (normal pricing..but it's not like AR styled 22s are easy to get right now, either). Now, you might think, "DPMS?! No Way!" And that would be valid in the context of DPMS vs BCM/DD/Colt/Noveske, but I fail to see how an AR styled .22 is going to be such a better choice than a DPMS in terms of quality or reliability being they're not subjected to the rigors of BCM/DD/Noveske/Colt, either.

So, what I'm saying is that if we're down to considering an AR styled 22, I wouldn't see why a lightweight, cheap DPMS wouldn't be considered as well since we've already settled on a standard lower than Colt/Noveske/DD/BCM as it is.

I think a good quality, reasonably well-maintained .22LR carbine, using premium .22LR ammo, is probably at least as reliable than a DPMS-tier Franken-carbine. I don't have any hard data to back up that statement, though. Just my anecdotal observations.

The thing is, you can still get a .22LR carbine (doesn't have to be an AR-pattern - the main advantage of the S&W M&P15-22 carbines, though, is that it is already very lightweight, has a safety and charging handle that is easy to manipulate and comes with things like usable sights and a railed fore-end that would be easy to mount a light, at least) pretty easily, even right now, without having to go through the fuss and bother of putting together a 5.56mm Franken-carbine, which would be especially difficult (from a buyer's standpoint) in the current climate. The .22LR carbine will have a recoil/buffer spring that is much easier for someone with limited upper body strength to overcome with the charging handle, even under stress, than that of a 5.56mm carbine. .22LR ammo is always comparatively cheap and gettable even during crazy times like now, and in any case can be stockpiled for cheap when things are not crazy.

More than anything else, .22LR is fun and completely non-intimidating to shoot. In my experience of foisting guns onto semi-reluctant family members/close family friends for their own good, whom I know, in my heart of hearts, will never ever turn into a hard core gun nerd, it's very important that the shooting is totally fun, cheap, and non-intimidating. Otherwise they will never practice. I believe that someone who practices enough with a little .22LR carbine to be confident in actually using it is much more important than having the extra oomph of a 5.56mm carbine that they will never practice with, because the weapon itself is still a bit too heavy, the charging handle is not easy for them to manipulate, it's loud and blasty, the ammo is expensive (to them), it's a nuisance to get to a range that will let them shoot 5.56mm, etc.

But if you still want to do the lightweight franken AR thing, then cool, maybe that will work out great (I don't know your family member at all, obviously, so it's hard to say with any certainty what would really appeal to her). Rock on and let us know how it goes!

[TGS]

More than anything else, .22LR is fun and completely non-intimidating to shoot. In my experience of foisting guns onto semi-reluctant family members/close family friends for their own good, whom I know, in my heart of hearts, will never ever turn into a hard core gun nerd, it's very important that the shooting is totally fun, cheap, and non-intimidating. Otherwise they will never practice. I believe that someone who practices enough with a little .22LR carbine to be confident in actually using it is much more important than having the extra oomph of a 5.56mm carbine that they will never practice with, because the weapon itself is still a bit too heavy, the charging handle is not easy for them to manipulate, it's loud and blasty, the ammo is expensive (to them), it's a nuisance to get to a range that will let them shoot 5.56mm, etc.

But if you still want to do the lightweight franken AR thing, then cool, maybe that will work out great (I don't know your family member at all, obviously, so it's hard to say with any certainty what would really appeal to her). Rock on and let us know how it goes!

FWIW, she would rather have a Bofors 40mm than anything, if that explains her attitude. She's been around guns her whole life, is staunchly supportive of the 2nd Amendment, raced top fuel dragsters in the 70's, beat up a guy waving a gun at a bar when she was a bartender, and used to hang-glide when it was legitimately stupid and asking to die.

Disabled ≠ weak-minded wimp afraid of guns

[Haraise]

FWIW, she would rather have a Bofors 40mm than anything, if that explains her attitude. She's been around guns her whole life, is staunchly supportive of the 2nd Amendment, raced top fuel dragsters in the 70's, beat up a guy waving a gun at a bar when she was a bartender, and used to hang-glide when it was legitimately stupid and asking to die.

Disabled ≠ weak-minded wimp afraid of guns

What's the budget here?

If it's not a concern, get a full out and out custom AR build.

Slickside upper, polymer lower, .540" ultrathin barrel at 10.5", adjustable gas port so that you can use the lightest possible buffer, MOE K-grip, 20 round magazine, carbon fiber/NSR 7" rail, no irons, just an RMR/T1 on top, CAR stock, lightweight BCG, ect ect. You can get these at about 5lbs if you do it right.

ADCO should be able to do the upper, doing a custom lower is easy pie. A really light trigger would make it easier on the pain of pulling, too.

[HCM]

Didn't Ruger also make a 9mm semiautomatic that's kind of similar to a Camp Carbine? The PC 9, if I remember correctly.

Yes, the Ruger Police Carbine. I have a PC-4, the .40 cal version. I have about 2k rounds through it in the past 15 years and it has been 100% using Ruger factory mags. It was popular with "gun geeks" at my agency to convert them to use our Beretta 96 mags. The converted guns also ran well.

[DocGKR]

M1 Carbine with expanding ammo.

[Kyle Reese]

M1 Carbine with expanding ammo.

Not sure is those are legal in New Jersey. :confused:

[TGS]

What's the budget here?

If it's not a concern, get a full out and out custom AR build.

Slickside upper, polymer lower, .540" ultrathin barrel at 10.5", adjustable gas port so that you can use the lightest possible buffer, MOE K-grip, 20 round magazine, carbon fiber/NSR 7" rail, no irons, just an RMR/T1 on top, CAR stock, lightweight BCG, ect ect. You can get these at about 5lbs if you do it right.

ADCO should be able to do the upper, doing a custom lower is easy pie. A really light trigger would make it easier on the pain of pulling, too.

As I said in the OP, about a grand. If the market cools down and I can piece together part by part, a quality AR15 for more than a grand could be a possibility. I was looking into the Cav Arms lower and shortening the LOP...LL said on another forum that he loves his and hasn't had any problems with it. I'm interested in hearing anyone's experiences with Cav Arms polymer lowers.

I imagine an M&P Sport upper would usually be pretty affordable, and would be well suited since it doesn't have a forward assist or ejection port cover. Small gains, but along with a Cav Arms lower, lightweight simple handguards, and turning the barrel I imagine it'd be close to 5lbs. What do you guys think about that?


M1 Carbine with expanding ammo.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the M1 Carbine is banned by name in NJ.

It's too bad the Mini-14 isn't as well regarded as the M1 Carbine. :(

[Haraise]

As I said in the OP, about a grand. If the market cools down and I can piece together part by part, a quality AR15 for more than a grand could be a possibility. I was looking into the Cav Arms lower...LL said on another forum that he loves his and hasn't had any problems with it. I'm interested in hearing anyone's experiences with Cav Arms polymer lowers.



Like I said earlier in the thread, the M1 Carbine is banned by name in NJ.

I have a Cav Arms lower.

It made my Gieselle trigger feel junky, the LoP was too long, and the grip too long as well. The long stock made the gun feel really front heavy, too. (Moved to a VLTOR IMOD stock that fits flush with the buffer tube and a Gen1 Noveske lower)

EDIT:

Responding to above edit.

That build probably won't get you to 5 lbs, and even if it did, you'd still be making the gun feel heavy because of that LoP.

"Lightweight AR-15 build on a GWACS polymer lower. This lower is a warranty replacement for an out of spec CAV ARMS lower I've had for a while.

GWACS Armory lower
Lightweight barrel from Alpha Shooting Sports, 16 inch melonited stainless, mid length gas
http://www.shop.ar15hardware.com/556-Nato_c38.htm
Bushnell TRS-25 red dot sight on a UTG riser.

Weight is 5 lbs 15.5 oz, unloaded, no mag, on a postal scale "

Ligthweight barrel, cavarms-ish poly lower, within .5 oz of 6 lbs.

A short barrel and short stock with the least weight out front, that's what will make it feel light.

A Noveske Thunder Ranch AR is 6 lbs 1.9 oz unloaded, and is a pretty light example of an metal AR.

You /can/ get an AR down to just below 4 lbs with an 11.5" barrel and a poly lower.

Doing it on a grand limits your options pretty heavily though. Slickside upper, .540" barrel, aluminum flash hider, CF tube, some kind of reflex/red dot... you could get to a thousand before you get the lower.

[Odin Bravo One]

Since you brought up a 20 Autoloader........I picked up an 1187 20 not long ago, and it was pretty soft shooting. It was for the GF, and she had no issues with it. She is also a tad bit recoil sensitive in long guns, and had some bad 12 gauge experiences. Then I traded a SxS and an O/U for a Benelli M2 20, and it is ridiculous how soft the recoil is. Night and day difference between the 1187 and M2. It has the upgraded stock, and that helps, but the action alone is very nice and really does a good job of taking it easy on the shooter. The M2 is also much easier to load and make ready than the 1187.

Sorry for failing to discuss it earlier.........didn't make the assumption that shotguns were on the table.

[Haraise]

Here's a 5.45 lb build:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39599

Note he has easy to lose weight on the muzzle device, the upper and the handguard. Could lose the BUIS or the red dot, too.


Since you brought up a 20 Autoloader........I picked up an 1187 20 not long ago, and it was pretty soft shooting. It was for the GF, and she had no issues with it. She is also a tad bit recoil sensitive in long guns, and had some bad 12 gauge experiences. Then I traded a SxS and an O/U for a Benelli M2 20, and it is ridiculous how soft the recoil is. Night and day difference between the 1187 and M2. It has the upgraded stock, and that helps, but the action alone is very nice and really does a good job of taking it easy on the shooter. The M2 is also much easier to load and make ready than the 1187.

Sorry for failing to discuss it earlier.........didn't make the assumption that shotguns were on the table.

Note that the 20g is still 6.5 lbs, and with all that barrel and the ammo all the way out to the end of the barrel, it's going to feel way, way heavier than an AR.

Edit:

Looks like the Kel-Tec SU-16B is a great way to go. 4.5 lbs. The KelTec Sub-2000 is only 4 lbs, 9mm.

Bolt actions will recoil much more, it's worth noting for someone in this situation.

[Wendell]

The Savage 11 Lightweight Hunter (http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11LH/) is a pretty nice rifle.

It's available in .223, as well as larger chamberings.

[TGS]

Sorry for failing to discuss it earlier.........didn't make the assumption that shotguns were on the table.

I didn't either, because when I think "shotgun" I just think 12ga. It's definitely an option if the recoil is low enough. How would you rate a 20ga against a comparable 12ga using low recoil buck?

I'm still going to have her try my Mossberg 500 12ga with low recoil buck when the CompStock arrives. I read some good stuff from people with severe arthritis and other infirmities, and how they were able to get back into shooting when they installed a CompStock. So, this thread might just come to a big non-climactic end with her using a 12ga pump w/CompStock, but I wanted to get ideas and it looks like people like talking about this whole niche anyways.

If you guys have any ultralight builds of your own, post'em up for the sake of creating discussion. Someone else might find it useful for their niche need.

[Odin Bravo One]

I don't have a scale that will register items that light.......but the loaded M2 20 gauge is far and away lighter than any of the empty AR15's in the house. 8", 10.5", 11.5", 14.5", 14.7", 16", 16.1", and 24". It is about dead even on "feel" with the 6.5" M&P15/22 with optics, supressor, and accessories. Hardly a scientific assessment, but the fact still remains that the Benelli M2 20 gauge is lighter than a typical AR15.

Benelli lists the 20 Gauge M2 at 5.7 & 5.8 lbs, depending on configuration, materials and barrel length. The magazine also only runs halfway up the barrel. The front end is extremely light, as there are no rounds in the magazine that far forward. So, it is a whopping .3 lbs heavier than the AR15 linked at M4Carbine.

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/index.php?specs

Robb also didn't put that rifle together for anywhere near the $1000 top end the OP has estimated for the purchase............

[Haraise]

I don't have a scale that will register items that light.......but the loaded M2 20 gauge is far and away lighter than any of the empty AR15's in the house. 8", 10.5", 11.5", 14.5", 14.7", 16", 16.1", and 24". It is about dead even on "feel" with the 6.5" M&P15/22 with optics, supressor, and accessories. Hardly a scientific assessment, but the fact still remains that the Benelli M2 20 gauge is lighter than a typical AR15.

Benelli lists the 20 Gauge M2 at 5.7 & 5.8 lbs, depending on configuration, materials and barrel length. The magazine also only runs halfway up the barrel. The front end is extremely light, as there are no rounds in the magazine that far forward. So, it is a whopping .3 lbs heavier than the AR15 linked at M4Carbine.

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/index.php?specs

Robb also didn't put that rifle together for anywhere near the $1000 top end the OP has estimated for the purchase............

Yep, like I said above, 1k might run out before you get to the lower.

If the M2 20g feels light, that's all that really matters. She won't be shooting on a scale, feel is what counts.

Though looking at the two above mentioned Kel-Tecs seems to be a good idea, at least, given their 4.0 and 4.5 lb weight.

[TGS]

Though looking at the two above mentioned Kel-Tecs seems to be a good idea, at least, given their 4.0 and 4.5 lb weight.

I know, right!? The SU-16b looks like a modern take on the M7 aircrew survival rifle, or whatever it was called. At one point in life I found myself as the owner of a Kel-Tec PF9. I sold it within 125 rounds because I felt it was built with quality similar to strange leftover plastic widgets, like the red nozzle tube that comes taped to WD40 cans. I don't want to repeat that experience, but a 4.5lbs semi-auto .223 just sounds so neat (until it doesn't work).

[Haraise]

I know, right!? The SU-16b looks like a modern take on the M7 aircrew survival rifle, or whatever it was called. At one point in life I found myself as the owner of a Kel-Tec PF9. I sold it within 125 rounds because I felt it was built with quality similar to strange leftover plastic widgets, like the red nozzle tube that comes taped to WD40 cans. I don't want to repeat that experience, but a 4.5lbs semi-auto .223 just sounds so neat (until it doesn't work).

I've spend more than a fair amount of time handling a Sub2k. It's years ahead of the build quality of the PF-9, I can definitely attest to that. It's a really really handy little thing. A friend of mine raves about his SU-16, but I think he has the C model, not that it's too different. I can vouch one seems good (and reliable, going by the owner's reports, the Sub2k) and the other I'm hearing good about. Worth a look at least!

[TGS]

I've spend more than a fair amount of time handling a Sub2k. It's years ahead of the build quality of the PF-9, I can definitely attest to that. It's a really really handy little thing. A friend of mine raves about his SU-16, but I think he has the C model, not that it's too different. I can vouch one seems good (and reliable, going by the owner's reports, the Sub2k) and the other I'm hearing good about. Worth a try at least!

The Sub2000 is the one Kel-Tec that I've heard nothing but good about. It's pretty hard to screw up a blowback 9mm carbine, after all.

[Haraise]

The Sub2000 is the one Kel-Tec that I've heard nothing but good about. It's pretty hard to screw up a blowback 9mm carbine, after all.

Especially when it uses Glock mags.

Still. I've heard a lot of good about the SU-16 as well. Not by the PF.com standards of 'fires 50,000 rounds upside down covered in mud in Antarctica without stopping once,' but likely those who'd put it through the same usage schedule she would.

[BLR]

If I were looking at your requirements, I would give serious consideration to a FN P90. I used one for a little while as a walking varmint gun. Was reasonably accurate, I used 22 Hornet bullets, and got decent terminal ballistics from it (it's not a hot roded 243!), and it didn't choke the entire time I owned it (which was less than 2k).

It had nearly no recoil, wasn't heavy, and because it was a bullpup, it had and easy to hold balance.

Just my $0.02.

[butler coach]

may have already been said but how about a ruger 10-22 in 22 mag. a friend has one and loves it.

[TGS]

may have already been said but how about a ruger 10-22 in 22 mag. a friend has one and loves it.

Was already said, was already discussed. Trying to stay away from .22s. This thread wouldn't exist if we were willing to go for an answer as simple and easy as "buy a .22." We're still trying to maintain some modicum of fighting-grade caliber and objective capability, I guess you could say. It might take some brain power, but I don't want to hand someone a .22 if there's viable choices in 223 or 9mm.....and, as we've been pointed to by virtue of its capabilities, a 20ga shotgun.


If I were looking at your requirements, I would give serious consideration to a FN P90. I used one for a little while as a walking varmint gun. Was reasonably accurate, I used 22 Hornet bullets, and got decent terminal ballistics from it (it's not a hot roded 243!), and it didn't choke the entire time I owned it (which was less than 2k).

It had nearly no recoil, wasn't heavy, and because it was a bullpup, it had and easy to hold balance.

Just my $0.02.

That's actually not a bad suggestion! BaiHu used to have one which I was able to shoot, I agree with your assessment/observations. But, for the price they cost, I could build a featherweight AR15 instead.

I'm curious what 22 Hornet bullets did you use, and why? What were the various 5.7x28 loads coming up short on for your needs?

[BLR]

That's actually not a bad suggestion! BaiHu used to have one which I was able to shoot, I agree with your assessment/observations. But, for the price they cost, I could build a featherweight AR15 instead.

I'm curious what 22 Hornet bullets did you use, and why? What were the various 5.7x28 loads coming up short on for your needs?

Bullets: Berger and Calhoon 37g HPs. Nicely accurate, violent expansion on contact (need for the lower velocities). Hornadys VMax is good too.

On price/vs ARs - that's only part of it. Featherweight ARs tend to be muzzle heavy in my experience. The P90 is more balanced.

As for coming up short - don't get me wrong, the 5.7 isn't really a 22Mag. But it's not much more. It's a fun little round, but not very satisfying to shoot (I've recently been called a recoil masochist). Couple that with the case stretching (that's the price for direct blowback), and it was just more trouble than it was worth. For me, a recoil insensitive guy who doesn't mind carrying a heavy rifle, it's tough to beat a good custom AR like a Mk12Mod0 clone. Which is my favorite rifle right now. It's a solid 0.75MOA gun with the Douglas XX bbl. And those PMI tubes are the cats meow.

[TGS]

On price/vs ARs - that's only part of it. Featherweight ARs tend to be muzzle heavy in my experience.

Which ones have you handled? I'm having a hard time imagining something with a carbine gas system 14.5" (+Comp) .55" bbl, low pro gas block and Clark CF hand guards being muzzle heavy. Especially if you put some grip on the stock to help with maintaining a good purchase on the shoulder, which can help as your arms are doing less work since the smooth CAR butt isn't sliding around.

On the AR15 front, I'm thinking that barrel setup with a RRA 9mm receiver converted for the AR15 gas tube, or M&P Sport, would be good slick-side uppers. Comments?

Haraise, you mentioned that your Cav Arms stock does not balance well and the LOP is too long. Have you tried shortening the LOP?

[JHC]

Which ones have you handled? I'm having a hard time imagining something with a carbine gas system 14.5" (+Comp) .55" bbl, low pro gas block and Clark CF hand guards being muzzle heavy. Especially if you put some grip on the stock to help with maintaining a good purchase on the shoulder, which can help as your arms are doing less work since the smooth CAR butt isn't sliding around.

On the AR15 front, I'm thinking that barrel setup with a RRA 9mm receiver converted for the AR15 gas tube, or M&P Sport, would be good slick-side uppers. Comments?

Haraise, you mentioned that your Cav Arms stock does not balance well and the LOP is too long. Have you tried shortening the LOP?

My BCM middie with 14.5 pencil barrel is certainly not muzzle heavy and some of your enhancements would lighten the front up more yet. Actually a heavier SOPMOD shifting weight to the rear makes the light gun feel really light although that might not work in this shooters case.

[BLR]

Which ones have you handled? I'm having a hard time imagining something with a carbine gas system 14.5" (+Comp) .55" bbl, low pro gas block and Clark CF hand guards being muzzle heavy. Especially if you put some grip on the stock to help with maintaining a good purchase on the shoulder, which can help as your arms are doing less work since the smooth CAR butt isn't sliding around.

On the AR15 front, I'm thinking that barrel setup with a RRA 9mm receiver converted for the AR15 gas tube, or M&P Sport, would be good slick-side uppers. Comments?

Haraise, you mentioned that your Cav Arms stock does not balance well and the LOP is too long. Have you tried shortening the LOP?

Well, just looking at the physics of it, for any given bbl, moving it further back will lessen the weight supported by the support hand. For someone who isn't an avid shooter, it (I think) would be easier to move the weight of a rifle as far back as possible. But, I'm not a expert in this, so to some extent, I'm just blowing smoke. And just to be clear, to you me and JHC the above is right. We're all guys with (probably) good upper body strength. But for a female with a medical condition? I just don't know how important a few ounces are. But no matter how you cut it, a P90 will be more weight biased to the rear than any AR, with an apples to apples barrel. You can stack the deck toward the AR with a pencil bbl, etc. I'm just not sure how effectively.

Also, shorter barrels, even 223s, add lots of muzzle blast. While I think blasting away with a SBR is fun in twilight, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is recoil sensitive (I do realize muzzle blast and recoil are not the same thing - but for a given recoil impulse, more muzzle blast does make the experience more fun for most). For that matter, I love my Mk18, but I wouldn't want to shoot it w/o hearing protection, and especially not indoors...

I'm no Navy SEAL, but if I had to shoot a short rifle indoors for something serious, I'd much rather it be a 10-12" 10mm than a 10" 223 with regular rifle ammo. I'd argue it would have better terminal ballistics too.

But there you go - If I were presented your problem, I'd pick a P90 in a heartbeat. Low recoil, low weight, rear balancing, simple optics, reliable, and excellent resale value.

[TGS]

Well, just looking at the physics of it, for any given bbl, moving it further back will lessen the weight supported by the support hand. For someone who isn't an avid shooter, it (I think) would be easier to move the weight of a rifle as far back as possible. But, I'm not a expert in this, so to some extent, I'm just blowing smoke. And just to be clear, to you me and JHC the above is right. We're all guys with (probably) good upper body strength. But for a female with a medical condition? I just don't know how important a few ounces are. But no matter how you cut it, a P90 will be more weight biased to the rear than any AR, with an apples to apples barrel. You can stack the deck toward the AR with a pencil bbl, etc. I'm just not sure how effectively.

Also, shorter barrels, even 223s, add lots of muzzle blast. While I think blasting away with a SBR is fun in twilight, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is recoil sensitive (I do realize muzzle blast and recoil are not the same thing - but for a given recoil impulse, more muzzle blast does make the experience more fun for most). For that matter, I love my Mk18, but I wouldn't want to shoot it w/o hearing protection, and especially not indoors...

I'm no Navy SEAL, but if I had to shoot a short rifle indoors for something serious, I'd much rather it be a 10-12" 10mm than a 10" 223 with regular rifle ammo. I'd argue it would have better terminal ballistics too.

But there you go - If I were presented your problem, I'd pick a P90 in a heartbeat. Low recoil, low weight, rear balancing, simple optics, reliable, and excellent resale value.

You bring up some great points, thanks Bill.

[Ed L]

This is a firearm for someone who lives in New Jersey, correct?

This means that to be legal, any AR could not have a colapsable stock, flash hider, or bayonet lug.

Good luck finding an AR that matches this description for a reasonable price these days.

Also, NJ limits you to a maximum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.

So if you got the FN PS90 (if you could find one at a reasonable price) you would be stuck with the NJ legal 10 round magazines. If I was going to choose a 5.7mm for defensive use, I would way more than a 10 round magazine.

[TGS]

This is a firearm for someone who lives in New Jersey, correct?

This means that to be legal, any AR could not have a colapsable stock, flash hider, or bayonet lug.

Good luck finding an AR that matches this description for a reasonable price these days.

Also, NJ limits you to a maximum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.

So if you got the FN PS90 (if you could find one at a reasonable price) you would be stuck with the NJ legal 10 round magazines. If I was going to choose a 5.7mm for defensive use, I would way more than a 10 round magazine.


We're in a buying frenzy. It's near impossible to find any AR15 at a reasonable price in any state. Earlier in the thread I addressed this, and why I'm still considering an AR15 and don't mind if people discuss it.

With the exception of the buying frenzy, it is not at all difficult to find an AR15 at a good price that is NJ legal. My BCM AR15 is no different than the same BCM in any other state with the exception of a pinned stock (doesn't actually have to be pinned, either), which can be performed by pretty much anyone including myself. It's not like a NJ legal AR15 is something special and rare. For most AR15s this means you use a compensator instead of a flash hider and pin the stock.

If the mag is blocked to ten rounds, such as Glock 17 or PS90 mags specifically, I can change it to a 15 rounds.

[Haraise]

Which ones have you handled? I'm having a hard time imagining something with a carbine gas system 14.5" (+Comp) .55" bbl, low pro gas block and Clark CF hand guards being muzzle heavy. Especially if you put some grip on the stock to help with maintaining a good purchase on the shoulder, which can help as your arms are doing less work since the smooth CAR butt isn't sliding around.

On the AR15 front, I'm thinking that barrel setup with a RRA 9mm receiver converted for the AR15 gas tube, or M&P Sport, would be good slick-side uppers. Comments?

Haraise, you mentioned that your Cav Arms stock does not balance well and the LOP is too long. Have you tried shortening the LOP?

As I said, I shortened the LOP by going to a Noveske lower reciever with a flush fitting collapsable stock. (CAR or IMOD).

As far as lightweight ARs being muzzle heavy, realize that most AR's sold as 'lightweight' have a heavy handguard/front sight and still a .625" barrel profile. You can knock that down A LOT with a .540/.550 profile and a carbon fiber/NSR front tube/rail.

I still need to reprofile and rerail my KAC SR-15 upper because as is, it is front heavy. Even the lightweight profile barrel and URX-3.1 rail are still too heavy for me. Should be able to knock a half pound off the front end.

[TGS]

As I said, I shortened the LOP by going to a Noveske lower reciever with a flush fitting collapsable stock. (CAR or IMOD).


I meant the Cav Arms stock itself. If it's lightweight, but the stock is too long, why not shorten the stock?


As far as lightweight ARs being muzzle heavy, realize that most AR's sold as 'lightweight' have a heavy handguard/front sight and still a .625" barrel profile. You can knock that down A LOT with a .540/.550 profile and a carbon fiber/NSR front tube/rail.

If we go AR15, it's totally going to be ~.55" instead of a traditional pencil at .625" for obvious reasons. Do you have any experience with the components/build that I brainstormed?


I still need to reprofile and rerail my KAC SR-15 upper because as is, it is front heavy. Even the lightweight profile barrel and URX-3.1 rail are still too heavy for me. Should be able to knock a half pound off the front end.

When you do it, I'd like to hear your impressions. Also, if you thin the barrel profile, I'd be interested to hear if it suffers decreased accuracy in 10-50 round groups compared to whatever it's shooting at now. The SU-16b has a .53"(I think) bbl compared to the regular SU-16, and everything I've read is that it suffers noticeably from heat ala the old Mini-14.

[Haraise]

I meant the Cav Arms stock itself. If it's lightweight, but the stock is too long, why not shorten the stock?



If we go AR15, it's totally going to be ~.55" instead of a traditional pencil at .625" for obvious reasons. Do you have any experience with the components/build that I brainstormed?



When you do it, I'd like to hear your impressions. Also, if you thin the barrel profile, I'd be interested to hear if it suffers decreased accuracy in 10-50 round groups compared to whatever it's shooting at now. The SU-16b has a .53"(I think) bbl compared to the regular SU-16, and everything I've read is that it suffers noticeably from heat ala the old Mini-14.

Because shortening the stock would require a custom setup with a new buffer tube somehow put in a polymer stock, and doesn't fix the grip or trigger issue.

You're overthinking the heat issue, in my opinion. She'll be firing 1-20/30 rounds, likely only the length of her longest hallway at most. Unless that's a hundred meters, I'm not seeing the concern.

However, people have run the B through carbine classes, and I'd like to run my .540/.550 profile through one as well. I've heard from all sources, leave the bolt back to let it cool between strings and it won't be an issue. Not that she'll be taking those classes, though.

[joshs]

Because shortening the stock would require a custom setup with a new buffer tube somehow put in a polymer stock, and doesn't fix the grip or trigger issue.

I haven't looked at a Cav lower in a long time, but doesn't it use a carbine buffer and spring? If it does, wouldn't that allow some stock to be removed from the A1 length stock without affecting the receiver extension?

[TGS]

You're overthinking the heat issue, in my opinion. She'll be firing 1-20/30 rounds, likely only the length of her longest hallway at most. Unless that's a hundred meters, I'm not seeing the concern.

I'm not over thinking it, I'm just asking a question and looking to see what comes of you going to a lighter barrel profile.

As for shortening the LOP on a Cav Arms lower, I think Josh is correct. I saw some posts on arfcom about Cav Arms lowers being shortened to 11".

[LittleLebowski]

I haven't looked at a Cav lower in a long time, but doesn't it use a carbine buffer and spring? If it does, wouldn't that allow some stock to be removed from the A1 length stock without affecting the receiver extension?

Yes and yes. I know a gunsmith that has done this successfully a few times.

[BWT]

I've gone through this entire thread and forgive me if I missed it... But why is there an aversion to a handgun? With weight being a serious concern and balance, etc. I'm thinking a G34 would work great.

ETA: Light weight gun, soft recoiling, in the requested caliber. Only issue would be the 17 round mags.

I just realized she may struggle to aim a handgun.

[TGS]

But why is there an aversion to a handgun?

There isn't an aversion. But, long guns have advantages over hand guns......and the purpose of this thread is to research the possibilities of these advantages becoming a reality....

or, in keeping with the thread's title, the use of ultralight carbines for anyone else's purpose. If the purpose of the thread was an open-ended, "what gun should she get?", it wouldn't be titled "ultralight 223 or 9mm carbine" and placed in the long guns sub-forum.

[Haraise]

I'm not over thinking it, I'm just asking a question and looking to see what comes of you going to a lighter barrel profile.

As for shortening the LOP on a Cav Arms lower, I think Josh is correct. I saw some posts on arfcom about Cav Arms lowers being shortened to 11".

Huh. That's actually really neat. I might have to give that a go. Thanks for the info. :)

[TGS]

Huh. That's actually really neat. I might have to give that a go. Thanks for the info. :)

What? No! You can't make that stock work for you by shortening the LOP! Quick, dispose of it by sending it to me before it gets banned, too. ;)

[Haraise]

What? No! You can't make that stock work for you by shortening the LOP! Quick, dispose of it by sending it to me before it gets banned, too. ;)

I'm a bit iffy about cutting it up. It's one of the ARFCOM SEBR ones. I don't know if that's special in some way.

[Tamara]

I'm a bit iffy about cutting it up. It's one of the ARFCOM SEBR ones. I don't know if that's special in some way.

Somewhat less so than a TALO Special Edition, but more so than a rainbow TiNi SIG P239.

[Haraise]

Somewhat less so than a TALO Special Edition, but more so than a rainbow TiNi SIG P239.

This is why I want to sell it. I don't know what either of those things mean as far as rarity. I'm no collector.

[Tamara]

This is why I want to sell it. I don't know what either of those things mean as far as rarity. I'm no collector.

Let's put it this way, some things are rare and valuable and sought after, and other things are just rare.

Unless you're lucky enough to find some hardcore ARFCOMer with a BFL tattoo who collects SEBRs and is missing just that very one, it's pretty much just another CavArms AR. No extra value whatsoever.

[TGS]

Question:

If going for a AR15 featherweight (~.55") barrel, would a non-free float handguard cause accuracy problems? Obviously FF is always better for accuracy concerning harmonics and whatnot, but I'm wondering if a non-FF handguard would impinge on a .55" barrel, and as the barrel heats up causing the barrel to warp and string prematurely compared to a FF handguard, ala Mini-14.

[Haraise]

Question:

If going for a AR15 featherweight (~.55") barrel, would a non-free float handguard cause accuracy problems? Obviously FF is always better for accuracy concerning harmonics and whatnot, but I'm wondering if a non-FF handguard would impinge on a .55" barrel, and as the barrel heats up causing the barrel to warp and string prematurely compared to a FF handguard, ala Mini-14.

No reason not to go free float in any case. Low profile gas blocks are light, and so is a noveske NSR rail. I think all the lightest options are FF.

[TGS]

No reason not to go free float in any case. Low profile gas blocks are light, and so is a noveske NSR rail. I think all the lightest options are FF.

In addition to being hundreds of dollars more, I believe a low-pro gas block, NSR and MBUS is actually the same weight (if not a hair heavier) as a FSB with CAR, M4 or MOE handguards. The price difference is enough to buy a used Aimpoint.

There's multiple ways to skin a cat. I'm still wondering if the handguards could impinge on the heated .55" barrel and cause significant accuracy problems, however. There's not much info out there on AR15 barrels so thin, which I find surprising being that the AR15 is a grownups version of a LEGO or erector set; it doesn't matter if you need to do it...what can be done, will be done. :)

[Haraise]

In addition to being hundreds of dollars more, I believe a low-pro gas block, NSR and MBUS is actually the same weight (if not a hair heavier) as a FSB with CAR, M4 or MOE handguards. The price difference is enough to buy a used Aimpoint.

There's multiple ways to skin a cat. I'm still wondering if the handguards could impinge on the heated .55" barrel and cause significant accuracy problems, however. There's not much info out there on AR15 barrels so thin, which I find surprising being that the AR15 is a grownups version of a LEGO or erector set; it doesn't matter if you need to do it...what can be done, will be done. :)

I've collected all the data I could on the .55 barrel profile, but nothing without free floating. I can't find anyone who's gone to that extent in weight, to not do such a basic accuracy upgrade.

Though you'd need to pull out some really convincing data to get me to believe that same weight. The comparisons I've seen all put the plastic handguards over the NSR in weight.

There are much cheaper options in the CF tube guards. CF tube, used H1 on a DD mount, and who needs irons. Just change the batteries once every few years.

More realistically, does it matter? I thought this rifle was meant for home defense, 1 to 5 MOA over ten yards doesn't mean so much.

[TGS]

I've collected all the data I could on the .55 barrel profile, but nothing without free floating. I can't find anyone who's gone to that extent in weight, to not do such a basic accuracy upgrade.

I don't think this is going to great extents to save weight. The cost of having a barrel turned, chopped, and refinished, including shipping, is less than an NSR handguard :p It's less money than most things people do to AR15s, like lights and light switches, a fraction of the cost of optics, less than many muzzle devices, even less than some stocks.


Though you'd need to pull out some really convincing data to get me to believe that same weight. The comparisons I've seen all put the plastic handguards over the NSR in weight.

The carbine length MOE is listed at 6.8oz, but I'm not sure if that's including the weight of stock delta rings vs an MI SS Gen2 or NSR with barrel nut. In any case, even if it doesn't, the weight difference is extremely miniscule...like fractions of an ounce. An ounce at most.

You're not saving meaningful weight by going to an NSR over MOE handguards, and especially single heat shield CAR handguard.


There are much cheaper options in the CF tube guards. CF tube, used H1 on a DD mount, and who needs irons. Just change the batteries once every few years.

This is true. Clark CF handguards and no backup sights was the idea I had off the top of my head, but I wanted to research other options as well. I don't think I can drill into CF handguards to put a small rail for light, either, whereas we can mount lights on a MOE or regular handguard.


More realistically, does it matter? I thought this rifle was meant for home defense, 1 to 5 MOA over ten yards doesn't mean so much.

I apologize for my thirst for knowledge. How dare I.

[Haraise]

I apologize for my thirst for knowledge. How dare I.

Seriously? Ok, nevermind.

[seabiscuit]

What about the Lone Wolf 9mm carbine? Looks like 6.6 lbs. I think Caleb posted about it on GunNuts a while ago. Takes Glock mags.

[Tamara]

What about the Lone Wolf 9mm carbine? Looks like 6.6 lbs. I think Caleb posted about it on GunNuts a while ago. Takes Glock mags.

I see no reason why those should even be as reliable as a dedicated Colt M635 SMG, which is damning with faint praise indeed.

(The 635 we had at the shop ran fine for a long time and I liked it, but it had a lot fewer miles on it than either of our MP5s, which were heading towards being shot-out bench queens. Those here who have seen 9mm ARs issued on a department/unit level do not speak well of them. I don't see why some frankenversion cobbled up to use Glock mags should work any better.)

[JMS]

Clark CF handguards and no backup sights was the idea I had off the top of my head...

I thought the Lancer ones answered most of the mail, but wow, what a difference in weight on the Clarks...not to mention pricing.

Have you given thought to testing the "Custom" part of "Clark's Custom Guns?" One-hole ballistic helmets can be bored for three-hole NVG mounts, for example, but it's a specific process to bore the holes (mostly the right bits, though there's a method, too), and another to make sure that each hole is sealed to keep it from delaminating from the edges outward, not gonna wick water, etc. Best done by a maker...

Point being, the juice might be worth the squeeze if Clark's capable of putting a rail section on OR simply putting a hole/slot or two where an IWC or similar light mount can be directly attached to the tube. If it were to end up in the same cost realm as a Lancer/PRI/similar tube, you'd still get the weight savings compared to any of those, retain the FF aspect on that thin barrel for the SAME cost, or close. Worth asking the question of them, at the least.

[joshs]

I think AP Custom will add minor custom work to their carbon fiber handguards if you call and ask. The AP Custom tube also attaches without any gluing involved and is already slotted for installing a light and/or a sling mount.

[LittleLebowski]

Do you need a FF handguard, TGS? I'm not sure if you're on a quest to save money or weight but I have a carbine and middy sitting around doing not a thing.

[TGS]

Do you need a FF handguard, TGS? I'm not sure if you're on a quest to save money or weight but I have a carbine and middy sitting around doing not a thing.

As for needing a FF handguard, that's what led me to ask questions about a non-FF handguard and if they possibly impinge on a super lightweight barrel (.55") and cause accuracy problems when it heats up. This carbine wouldn't need to be a tackdriver, but if non-FF handguards led to significant decrease in accuracy when paired with the .55" barrel compared to FF, then I imagine it'd be worth it to drop the extra $70 for a Clark CF.

So, I'm not yet decided on if the carbine needs FF handguards or not. After all, MOE grips are super cheap, only 2oz heavier than a Clarke CF, and allow for mounting of accessories. They're kind of hard to beat for the price, but I imagine regular CAR grips would work as well.

Also, are your spare AR15s slick slide? Not that it saves a whole lot of weight, but I figure since a slick receiver isn't more expensive than a standard one, it would make sense to buy a slick side. So for the upper I'm thinking either an M&P Sport receiver or an RRA 9mm drilled for a gas tube.

Josh and JMS, thanks for the input on the handguards. I'm looking into what you suggested.

ETA: As for the whole budget thing, it's a target. I'm just setting that target because on my last AR15 I didn't.....and before I knew it, I had a setup running close to $3k. I tend to do that with nice things when I don't set a budget. :rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

I have a spare YHM lightweight carbine and an MI middy (handguards). Not slick sides.