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View Full Version : Slide Lock Reload: Which thumb for slide release?



JSGlock34
04-06-2011, 07:46 PM
I've been reading Kyle Lamb's new book Stay in the Fight!! (http://www.vikingtactics.com/book.html) (reviewed here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?616-VTAC-Stay-in-the-Fight-Book-and-Pistol-Drills-DVD)) and one item that caught my attention was his emphasis on using the support hand thumb to manipulate the slide release during slide-lock reloads. For years I've been using my strong hand thumb to release the slide so this captured my interest.

I decided to try some dry runs comparing both techniques...and attempting to use my support hand thumb was ugly. I was frequently hunting for the slide release - I'm fighting a fairly ingrained technique. Still, I thought there was one noticeable advantage - I judge that I maintained a stronger grip on the pistol when using my support hand to release the slide.

When reloading with my usual strong hand technique, upon slide lock I slightly rotate the pistol in my grip in order to manipulate the magazine release. The pistol stays in the rotated position until I've inserted the new magazine, as I need to keep it there to manipulate the slide release with my strong hand thumb. Once the new magazine is loaded I hit the slide release and then rotate the pistol back into the proper grip as I join my support hand and get back on target.

When using the support hand, I still rotate the pistol in order to hit the magazine release, but then I find I can immediately shift it back into the proper grip position in my strong hand. I insert the fresh magazine, hit the slide release with my support hand thumb and then join my support hand and get back on target.

It is a subtle change but I think it could realize benefits. I'm curious to see if it improves my four shots to the circle on the FAST.

But before I started retraining my reload technique, I wanted to solicit thoughts to see if there are real benefits to be derived here, or if the investment isn't worth the payoff. What technique are you using?

part-time shooter
04-06-2011, 08:19 PM
I'm doing the same thing based on what I've read and had recommended to me here. It's faster once you "program" it. I've been working on it in dry fire for about 2 weeks now. I'd been dropping it with my strong hand thumb since I first picked up an autoloader.

My copy of the book should arrive tomorrow and I'm looking forward to seeing what I can gather from it as well along with the drill DVD. I'm not familiar with his previous work so I'm looking forward to hearing another point of view.

I'm also working with using my trigger finger to drop the mag instead of my thumb, another very useful tidbit I picked up here. I no longer have to rotate the gun to hit the release so my grip doesn't change and my strong side thumb stays put on the safety 100% of the time. I'd been using the same technique to drop the mag for probably 2 decades, this seems better and obvious in hind sight.

jetfire
04-06-2011, 08:32 PM
I use whichever hand is closer to the slide release. For example, on a 1911, I'm going to use my support hand, because I have to roll the gun unacceptably far in my grip to use my strong hand. On the flip side, if I'm shooting my Sig P250, I'm going to use my strong hand, because the slide release is just right there under it.

Odin Bravo One
04-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Do what makes sense and works for you.

Some people and guns hitting it with a strong side thumb makes sense, and works. Some people and guns hitting it with the support thumb makes sense, and works.
Some people and guns running the slide makes sense, and works.

A thought might also be to get in touch with Kyle and ask for further clarification of technique and the "why" behind it. I'd be willing to bet that he has a wee bit of experience in this arena, and he has his reasons. Might be worth knowing what they are before changing a technique simply because it was written in a book.

DocGKR
04-06-2011, 09:12 PM
Sean M has given good advice.

With the 1911, Glock, and M&P my support side thumb is directly on the slide release after inserting a magazine, thus it is faster and more reliable for me to release the slide with the support hand thumb.

YVK
04-06-2011, 10:04 PM
I just let my thumbs duke it out, whichever gets there first takes it, win-win for me.



Changing back to a serious tone, I do what Caleb does.

An intuitive explanation to KL's recommendation is the fact that not all pistols allow slide stop to be reached by strong hand thumb - 1911 is a good example. In some instances as with Glocks, an aftermarket modification - such as extended slide stop or grip reduction - is required to use strong thumb, depending on shooter's reach. Using support hand thumb then becomes more of a universal method, insensitive to reach issues...just my speculation.

JSGlock34
04-06-2011, 10:21 PM
Just to add to the discussion, there is a bit more 'why' in the book - Lamb writes that using the firing hand thumb will not be as quick, and you will have to slightly break your grip. He also states that even if you have large hands, using your firing hand will not work on all pistols, and using the support thumb is more universal.

I certainly agree that different firearms and different people will mean different techniques. Years ago my initial training stressed the hand over technique, and the instructors who taught that technique had good reasons. I migrated to using the slide release after other trainers recommended the change and saw that I could derive a speed advantage. It made sense for me.

On the other hand, my training group contains a strangely disproportionate number of lefties, and (with one exception) they continue to use the handover or slingshot method to release the slide. It works well for them and I certainly understand why.

I'm not looking to change a technique frivolously, hence my query. I've actually been focusing on improving my reload times over the past six months and so I'm naturally interested in recommendations.

3-7-77
04-06-2011, 10:33 PM
I have long thumbs, so without altering my grip, I use my strong hand thumb to release the slide on Glocks, M&Ps and Sigs. With 1911s I have to adjust just slightly to hit the release with my thumb. Its still faster for me than using my offhand, and it is consistent with how I operate my other pistols.

YVK
04-06-2011, 10:40 PM
Lamb writes that using the firing hand thumb will not be as quick, and you will have to slightly break your grip.

On two pistols I use strong hand thumb to release the slide, neither is correct. I have enough sanity not to call Mr. Lamb out on this, or any other firearm-related, matters; I am simply stating my experience. I am slightly, but clearly faster with strong thumb, it is just there as opposed to support side thumb needing to slightly reach up and towards slide stop. I have to break my grip to hit mag release button and I reestablish my grip before I hit slide release with strong thumb - pretty good evidence for me that I don't need keep that grip "broken" to reach the slide stop. I still think it is a matter of reach; if I had a pistol where I needed to keep my grip broken to reach, I'd use a support thumb.

P.S. Another potential benefit of support side use is that you are unlikely to hit slide release too early. I've done it a couple of times with strong thumb, sending slide home before fully inserting the mag. Todd has a preload technique to avoid this, but I could never do the preload on Clock with standard slide stop. With support thumb use it is nearly damn impossible to do, unless one has truly huge hands.

ToddG
04-06-2011, 11:07 PM
There's absolutely no way that using the support thumb is faster if you can reach the slide release properly with your strong thumb. My slidelock and in-battery reloads are identical in speed specifically because a properly performed slide release should take absolutely no extra time.

I have relatively short thumbs and use my shooting hand thumb for just about everything but a 1911.

The primary argument I've heard in favor of using the support hand is that it eliminates the chance of accidentally dropping the slide prematurely. By pre-loading the slide release with my strong thumb, you can greatly reduce that problem, too.

jslaker
04-07-2011, 12:00 AM
He also states that even if you have large hands, using your firing hand will not work on all pistols, and using the support thumb is more universal.

And this is pretty much why I've lost shooting interest in shooting multiple handgun platforms with any regularity.

I've found that the combination of HK's huge slide release levers and my large hands means I can actuate the release without shifting my grip any more than flicking my stronghand thumb. I'm personally inclined to avoid any platform that has a slide release that would slow me down.

zRxz
04-07-2011, 05:45 AM
Being left handed, the standard Glock slide lock/release can be a little hard to get to. This doesn't prevent me from using the preload technique Todd mentioned, simply that I need to really pull my digit back and tuck it into the gun's slide to find my purchase. I have found, however, that this technique works best when you compromise your strong hand's grip on the gun ever so slightly. Just before I insert that fresh magazine, I loosen the tension my strong hand is imparting around the gun but keep my index finger on that spot on top of the slide release, meaning that the could "jiggle" in my palm if I was to shake it. That way, when I load the mag, the baseplate bumps the frame of the gun upwards, which is in turn STOPPED by my finger's placement on top of the slide release. The pressure on the release sends the slide home and I move to re-establish a two-handed firing grip.

It really is as fast as a in-battery or speed reload.

TAP
04-07-2011, 06:51 AM
The primary argument I've heard in favor of using the support hand is that it eliminates the chance of accidentally dropping the slide prematurely. By pre-loading the slide release with my strong thumb, you can greatly reduce that problem, too.

Can you expand on this? I noticed that you dropped the slide prematurely twice in class back in March. I know you were not up to speed with the G17 at that point but I figured the pre-loading of the slide release was the main contributor. I can easily see how the slide would drop without a round if the reload isn't very smooth due to the pre-load. This seems like a risky technique to me; however, I realize that it is very efficient.

jlw
04-07-2011, 07:31 AM
I'm rethinking my position on the slide release on reloads. I've been using the overhand slingshot to be consistent across platforms, but these days I'm pretty well only shooting Glocks when in bottom feeder mode.

I shot the IDPA classifier this past Sunday and missed EX by 1.46 seconds. On the first reload, I wasn't smooth on releasing the slide, and it cost me some time. On the next emergency reload, I pushed harder and used the (extended) slide stop to release the slide and actually was a lot smoother and thus faster.

My thumb getting hung in my pocket on a tactical reload in the last stage also cost me. I figure not being smooth on those two reloads easily cost me at least a full second.

---
As to the which hand, like Caleb, in the past I have used a similar approach of using whichever thumb works best in a particular platform. Back when I was issued a S&W 4006, I released the slide with the support hand thumb. On a Glock, I use the strong hand thumb.

ToddG
04-07-2011, 07:56 AM
Can you expand on this? I noticed that you dropped the slide prematurely twice in class back in March.

The gun I was borrowing had an extended slide stop which works for me on gen3 guns but apparently not on gen4. That's why I put the Vickers stop in my test gun.

There is also a risk of dropping the slide if the mag hits the frame hard enough without inserting into the mag well, which I was also experiencing before I put the grip plug in my gun.

Pre-loading the release is by no means a guarantee against dropping the slide prematurely, just as other techniques all have their potential pitfalls. But it has been the least fumble prone technique I've found, and is definitely the fastest.

Jay Cunningham
04-07-2011, 08:02 AM
Vickers endorses the support hand thumb under most circumstances. I think you give up some speed for a more bomb-proof technique.

Personally I think it depends on the individual and the type of handgun - imagine that! :cool:

Jason
04-07-2011, 08:50 AM
For me, the possible added speed is not enough to counter the negatives in the shooting hand slide release technique. I will stick with the support hand release because it completely eliminates the possibility that I will end up without a round in the chamber. Think of it this way: why do you need to reload from slide lock? Because you need to put rounds into a dangerous target NOW. Mission statement: get rounds into gun and sights on target and eliminate the threat. Under those circumstances and with that mission statement I dont want to end up without a round in the chamber. As a result, I will stick with the (marginally) slower support hand slide release technique. Like Jay said, everybody is different, this is just what works for me.

ToddG
04-07-2011, 09:36 AM
I think of it along the same exact lines, which is precisely why I use my shooting hand to release the slide.

Using the weak hand adds approx. 0.25sec to the reload. If we follow the logic that, to quote, "you need to put rounds into a dangerous target NOW," that quarter second is getting me back into it about one shot later. That's one fewer shot I'll get to take or, more importantly, one extra shot the other guy gets to take.

Looking back over the last 100 FAST drills I recorded, I prematurely dropped the slide once. So that's a 1:100 chance of dropping the slide before the round is chambered. That's with a relatively new gun where I'm still working out the kinks in terms of slide release levers, magazine insertion, etc. But let's say that 1:100 is a constant and I'll never get better.

It takes me approximately 1 extra second to recover if I accidentally and unintentionally drop the slide prematurely.

For me, the equation works out strongly in favor of hitting the slide release with my strong hand.

Furthermore, because my SH thumb is usually in the vicinity of the lever, to use my WH I'd need to flag my SH thumb, further compromising my grip. Again it's just a personal preference, but I like to be able to drop the mag and drop the slide without changing my SH grip on the pistol.

VolGrad
04-07-2011, 10:13 AM
Furthermore, because my SH thumb is usually in the vicinity of the lever, to use my WH I'd need to flag my SH thumb, further compromising my grip. Again it's just a personal preference, but I like to be able to drop the mag and drop the slide without changing my SH grip on the pistol.

I had never pre-loaded the slide stop lever until you showed it in class. While I have been a bit concerned I would actuate it pre-maturely it hasn't happened yet and I am aware of the possibility.

I will say this though .... my re-loads are faster. I can't give you a # to quantify that statement but I know they are faster. jlweems can probably attest to this as we both shot the IDPA Classifier this past Sunday and he, as well as several others, commented on my re-loads. jlweems even asked me what I was doing differently.

The part I quoted above further shows Todd's wisdom. I am more concerned with shifting my grip around during a re-load than pre-maturely dropping the slide.

David Armstrong
04-07-2011, 12:22 PM
Always a bit of a balancing act. Gain a little speed, lose a little reliability, give up a little security, get a little control, etc. I still use and teach the slide-rack for most of my people as it is universal and multiple-use. I've never been convinced on the importance of shaving small fractions of time off the reload for most shooters there that aren't going to be as dedicated as we would like them to be in their training. On the other hand, as was mentioned, those small fractions can add up over the course of a match and make the difference between one level of classification and another.

Jason
04-07-2011, 12:32 PM
I hear what you are saying, but for me, that one in 100 can become say 2 in one hundred, maybe more during a real encounter. Not to get into the "stress is a factor or not" argument, but even at 1 in 100 to be faster, I would rather be slower but be zero in 100 for failure to place a round in the chamber. Thats just me though.

evanhill
04-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Jason, if I understood LAV properly when he covered this topic in class, his opinion is the same as yours for the same reasons. Not surprising that LAV and Kyle would be of the same opinion.

JDM
04-07-2011, 12:48 PM
Preloaded slide release with my strong hand. I can comfortably reach the release this way on my carry gun, and it's been very fast for me.

I interpreted this technique as putting some tension on the slide lock lever after you drop the empty mag, then when you slap the fresh magazine in the 'jolt' of the fresh mag slamming home causes enough movement on the lever to release the slide, and chamber a round.

You never actually apply enough pressure to release the slide with your thumb, the slide is released only after the mag is locked in place, Correct?

GLOCKMASTER
04-07-2011, 01:54 PM
You never actually apply enough pressure to release the slide with your thumb, the slide is released only after the mag is locked in place, Correct?

Yes the upward pressure of the mag insertion causes the slide release to push against the thumb.

I teach my students the big three and I try to let them decide. However, I will say that I encourage them to use the slide release.

jlw
04-07-2011, 03:23 PM
I had never pre-loaded the slide stop lever until you showed it in class. While I have been a bit concerned I would actuate it pre-maturely it hasn't happened yet and I am aware of the possibility.

I will say this though .... my re-loads are faster. I can't give you a # to quantify that statement but I know they are faster. jlweems can probably attest to this as we both shot the IDPA Classifier this past Sunday and he, as well as several others, commented on my re-loads. jlweems even asked me what I was doing differently.

The part I quoted above further shows Todd's wisdom. I am more concerned with shifting my grip around during a re-load than pre-maturely dropping the slide.

I can attest to his reloads being faster (of course, they couldn't be much slower :cool: ).

I thought that his slide had gone forward on its own from the force of the magazine being inserted.

joshs
04-07-2011, 08:27 PM
Another benefit, besides speed, of using the strong hand thumb, is consistency between slide lock and slide forward reloads. I used to use the weak hand thumb technique, and after shooting a lot of IPSC, I would sometimes have a short delay when I would have a surprise slide lock reload. This was due to using two different techniques for slide forward and slide lock reloads. Now, every time I do a slide forward reload, I still preload the slide release like I was performing a slide lock reload. This ensures that when I have a surprise slide lock reload, I drop the slide as part of my subconscious technique instead of needing to consciously hit the release.

SLG
04-07-2011, 10:56 PM
This is just me, but I don't find there to be a difference in my reload time between SH release and WH release, so I fall in the camp that says 100% reliability for a reload. That means WH release for me with most guns. Sigs are a definite exception, though I have occasionally dropped the slide prematurely with a Sig. Never with a Glock or a 1911. I'm also of the belief that a domestic fight will almost always be decided by the ammo in your gun, not how much you have on you.

evanhill
04-07-2011, 11:15 PM
SLG -

SH = strong hand
WH = weak hand

OR

SH = support hand
WH = ?

?

SLG
04-08-2011, 07:45 AM
SLG -

SH = strong hand
WH = weak hand

?


Fixed it, sorry.

Jason
04-08-2011, 08:43 AM
Jason, if I understood LAV properly when he covered this topic in class, his opinion is the same as yours for the same reasons. Not surprising that LAV and Kyle would be of the same opinion.

I think he did too, and I assume his rationale was similar. Like I said, from a non gun games tenth of a second perspective, having a round in the chamber every time beats the hell out of not having a round in the chamber even one in 100 times, at least for me.

davisj
04-08-2011, 08:58 AM
I think of it along the same exact lines, which is precisely why I use my shooting hand to release the slide.

Using the weak hand adds approx. 0.25sec to the reload. If we follow the logic that, to quote, "you need to put rounds into a dangerous target NOW," that quarter second is getting me back into it about one shot later. That's one fewer shot I'll get to take or, more importantly, one extra shot the other guy gets to take.

Looking back over the last 100 FAST drills I recorded, I prematurely dropped the slide once. So that's a 1:100 chance of dropping the slide before the round is chambered. That's with a relatively new gun where I'm still working out the kinks in terms of slide release levers, magazine insertion, etc. But let's say that 1:100 is a constant and I'll never get better.

It takes me approximately 1 extra second to recover if I accidentally and unintentionally drop the slide prematurely.

For me, the equation works out strongly in favor of hitting the slide release with my strong hand.

Furthermore, because my SH thumb is usually in the vicinity of the lever, to use my WH I'd need to flag my SH thumb, further compromising my grip. Again it's just a personal preference, but I like to be able to drop the mag and drop the slide without changing my SH grip on the pistol.

Todd,

First, a disclaimer: I'm not now nor have I ever been Mil/LEO/Trainer (but I can kill you with PowerPoint), I'm just some dude on the internet but I'm somewhat confused by this answer when also taking into account the recent thread you started entitled "Defining Reliable".

In the "Defining Reliable" thread you wrote:

"How do you define reliable?

None of us is likely to carry a pistol we consider unreliable. But where do you draw the line? For me, ideally I like to see a MRBS of no less than 5,000. That's about twice the industry standard (which is 2,000-2,500 depending upon whom you ask) but well within the bounds of pistols I've shot -- and abused -- heavily over the past decade.

I have a hard time seeing a 50,000 round gun with 20-25 gun induced stoppages as "reliable."

As I understand these threads, in one you indicate that a gun-related malfunction >1:5,000 is unacceptable but in this thread I interpret your post referenced above as being fine with a 1:100 malfunction if it is user induced. It seems to me the worst sound in the world would be a "click" when I really need to hear a "bang" but accepting a 1:100 premature slide closure with no round in the chamber is just as bad as a FTE if it is easily cleared with Tap Rack Bang. Assuming your time on TRB is 1.25 or 1.50 seconds and your time cycling the slide in the event of a premature slide closure on an empty chamber is "approximately 1 extra second", I fail to see the advantage in using your strong thumb. Is this in reference to speed drills, gaming, square range only or does this also include a self-defense situation? You also mention that using your weak hand thumb would force you to "flag" your strong hand thumb which "compromises" your grip but using your strong hand thumb to release the slide also alters your grip.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just confused. To me a malfunction, whether gun-related or user induced is equally bad and I would want to reduce or eliminate the chance of either if possible. If adding .25 seconds to drop the slide changes the failure rate from 1:100 to 1:5,000 then sign me up.

gtmtnbiker98
04-08-2011, 09:30 AM
One benefit of the huge slide release on the P30 is that I naturally rest my strong hand thumb on the mag release and during the insertion of the magazine, the upward force automatically forces my thumb to actuate the slide release. For me, the shooting hand thumb is the way to go. Trying to use the support hand to release the slide release just doesn't make sense to me.

MDS
04-08-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just confused. To me a malfunction, whether gun-related or user induced is equally bad and I would want to reduce or eliminate the chance of either if possible. If adding .25 seconds to drop the slide changes the failure rate from 1:100 to 1:5,000 then sign me up.

Really? Even assuming it adds 1 second to clear the malfunction? In a fight, I don't think it's about avoiding the malfunction - it's about minimizing the probability of delay. Whether the delay is caused by slower technique or user-induced malfunction is irrelevant. Todd has two choices:

Using WH = extra .25 second every time (due to slower technique)

Using SH = 1 extra second every hundredth time (due to user-induced malfunction)

You're saying you'd choose the first option?

evanhill
04-08-2011, 03:22 PM
Todd has two choices:

Using WH = extra .25 second every time (due to slower technique)

Using SH = 1 extra second every hundredth time (due to user-induced malfunction)

You're saying you'd choose the first option?

I would choose the first option every time, but what do I know?

SLG
04-08-2011, 06:44 PM
Really? Even assuming it adds 1 second to clear the malfunction? In a fight, I don't think it's about avoiding the malfunction - it's about minimizing the probability of delay. Whether the delay is caused by slower technique or user-induced malfunction is irrelevant. Todd has two choices:

Using WH = extra .25 second every time (due to slower technique)

Using SH = 1 extra second every hundredth time (due to user-induced malfunction)

You're saying you'd choose the first option?

I would choose the first option.

Having said that, the argument between SH and WH release is highly weapon dependent (and hand size/dexterity/etc.. as well). SeanM pointed this out very early on in this thread. On a 1911, most people cannot be faster using the SH, so the issue is moot. On a Sig, not using the SH would be pretty silly (unless your a lefty, but for the sake of this discussion, I'm ignoring those who are sinister). With other guns, you have to see what works for you.

Real world domestic fights almost never go to a reload. When they have, they have mostly involved distance and cover. Does your reload speed matter quite as much then?

If the fight is still in your face after emptying 8-18 rounds at the bad guy/guys, either you missed a lot, or they are more than you can handle. Either way, I think you've got more to worry about than fractional increases in speed.

One famous fight was one by a guy reloading his slide action shotgun one handed. Not the fastest technique, but he saw it through and prevailed. I'll take Will to Win over absolute speed, every time.

Not a true apples to apples, but I think we get lost in the minutia sometimes.

JodyH
04-08-2011, 07:07 PM
I'll take Will to Win over absolute speed, every time.
I'll take the will to win and absolute speed.
They aren't mutually exclusive.
:cool:

ToddG
04-08-2011, 10:47 PM
Mario spelled it out pretty well. For me, the incidence of failure (1:100, let's say) and the penalty for failure (0.75sec compared to doing it the slower WH way to begin with) are slight enough that gaining a benefit 99% of the time is worth it. It's not at all like mechanical reliability. My skill cannot overcome an unreliable gun. I'm not gaining some advantage in trade for an unreliable gun. Etc.

It's also a bit presumptuous to assume that using another technique is somehow orders of magnitude less likely to have a problem. I've seen quite a few people either miss the lever when trying to hit it WH or take substantially more time than an extra quarter second. There's also a timing issue in whether you drop the slide and acquire your grip back in the workspace (takes more time) or you hit the lever and acquire your grip while extending to the target (upsets the sight alignment while extending and basically eliminates the ability to do a decent press out, which essentially means it takes more time to get off an aimed shot).

A number of people I respect use their SH thumb to drop the slide.
A number of people I respect use their WH thumb to drop the slide.

The important thing, as with any technique, is to assess the options, the costs, and the benefits to make a rational decision based on fact. Different folks will come to different conclusions based on their priorities and expectations and abilities.

Slavex
04-09-2011, 03:56 AM
with my CZ I have to use the WH, however, I hardly ever do, it auto return to battery 99% of the time. If it doesn't it adds less than .25 to my reload times to hit the lever with my WH thumb. unless it totally catches me off guard, in that case maybe .35-.40.
today running reload drills I was hitting 1.28s with both WH release and auto forward. (planned WH release by not inserting mag as hard).
On my Beretta I used my SH thumb when needed (that gun auto returned as well), with my M&P, same story. My Glock, same thing again.
yes I know the evils of trusting the auto return, but honestly in competition if I hit a slide lock reload situation I've already shit the bed.

JSGlock34
04-09-2011, 08:47 AM
Some great discussion in this thread - thanks for the thoughts. What I am taking from this is that there are merits to each technique, but nothing so compelling that it is worth changing a technique that is already working for me. Appreciate the input.

JodyH
04-09-2011, 08:52 AM
deja vue all over again...
We've discussed strong hand vs. weak hand thumbs.
Nobody uses the overhand rack?

zRxz
04-09-2011, 09:59 AM
deja vue all over again...
We've discussed strong hand vs. weak hand thumbs.
Nobody uses the overhand rack?

I wonder why?

Could it be that it's such a superior technique, using gross motor skills instead of fi-...

-Sees the angry mob forming.-

Oh, nevermind.

Rverdi
04-09-2011, 10:09 AM
deja vue all over again...
We've discussed strong hand vs. weak hand thumbs.
Nobody uses the overhand rack?

Well, of course everyone should be using the overhand rack. Using your thumbs is a fine motor skill and everyone knows your hands will turn to virtual clubs under stress <g>

Pistol Shooter
04-09-2011, 10:12 AM
deja vue all over again...
We've discussed strong hand vs. weak hand thumbs.
Nobody uses the overhand rack?

I was wondering about that too... :confused:

David Armstrong
04-10-2011, 12:54 PM
deja vue all over again...
We've discussed strong hand vs. weak hand thumbs.
Nobody uses the overhand rack?
Well, I didn't specify the overhand rack, but way back at Post #20...........:D

JSGlock34
04-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Always a bit of a balancing act. Gain a little speed, lose a little reliability, give up a little security, get a little control, etc. I still use and teach the slide-rack for most of my people as it is universal and multiple-use. I've never been convinced on the importance of shaving small fractions of time off the reload for most shooters there that aren't going to be as dedicated as we would like them to be in their training. On the other hand, as was mentioned, those small fractions can add up over the course of a match and make the difference between one level of classification and another.

Actually David, I thought your earlier post really summed up the merits of the over hand rack method well. This was the technique I was first trained on, it is very reliable, works across the various firearms designs and is ambidextrous. If I was instructing a large group of people who were new to firearms, I'd probably teach this method.

As I moved into more advanced training and the occasional competition, I transitioned to using the slide release as it was a faster technique and I was a more competent shooter.

I also think that Glock's training division is responsible to some extent for the spread of the over hand rack, as they teach this method. Thus, many of the organizations that adopt the Glock also adopt this technique.

SLG
04-10-2011, 11:58 PM
I wonder why?

Could it be that it's such a superior technique, using gross motor skills instead of fi-...

-Sees the angry mob forming.-

Oh, nevermind.

People should feel free to use any slide release technique they want, for whatever reason. None of it matters much to me, just like 9 vs. 45.

However, none of them use gross motor skills, no matter what your favorite instructor told you. And by the way, releasing your mag is also a fine motor skill, so if you can't do that, then the rest of the reload doesn't really matter much. Pulling the trigger, to empty the gun, to require a reload, is also a fine motor skill. Drawing the gun in the first place...I'm sure you get the point by now:-)

Slavex
04-11-2011, 12:03 AM
100% agree

irishshooter
04-11-2011, 08:42 AM
exactly as SLG posted. isnt pressing the trigger a fine motor skill, better yet a "finer" motor skill? bottom line is repetition builds proficiencey. no matter what method you choose practice it often

MDS
04-11-2011, 07:12 PM
today running reload drills I was hitting 1.28s with both WH release and auto forward.

Sweet, thanks for the reality check. When I can do 2s reloads with any technique at all, I'll start to worry about the pros and cons of any of them.

I'm working on it. :cool:

mc1911
04-11-2011, 08:01 PM
In my minimal and possibly irrelevant experience, I've found that using my weak hand thumb requires noticeably more concentration due to the inherent coordination issues. If I'm not left-handed but decide to use my left thumb to locate and then apply pressure to a small button whilst in a hurry, the results tend to take longer than if I use another method.