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View Full Version : Y'alls opinion on 'aim-point' shooting?



Panoply
12-29-2012, 09:56 AM
Hello All,

I was recently introduced to the system of shooting called 'aim point.' This was the term the man I met at the range used, you may know it by another. Basically, on a auto you lay the index finger alongside the gun and use the middle finger to pull the trigger. It's based on the universal human ability to point right at any object. It seems to make sense intellectually, if you know what i mean, but how does it work in practice? It would take some getting used to. I tried it and was less than satisfied - though I suppose if I ran a few hundred rounds through I'd get a better idea of it's value.
What do y'all know about it?

Have a Happy and Safe New Year!
Jeremy

Chuck Haggard
12-29-2012, 10:06 AM
I would type a longer and more reasoned response if I had more coffee in me and had more time this morning, but the short version is that this technique is clown shoes.

I can get the same pointing feedback from a good thumbs forward grip, and not give up a solid grip on the gun, my ability to control recoil at speed, etc.

Sights exist on handguns for very good reasons.

ford.304
12-29-2012, 10:15 AM
I'm not an expert, but every expert I respect who has given an opinion on it agrees with tpd223.

Let's put it this way - if you're using a technique that isn't being used by any of the top competition shooters, you'd better have a good reason for it, backed up with some data.

(I know this applies to the press out - but I think that the demonstrated improvement in hitting a small target at speed compared to an index draw is enough to at least make an argument for it).

Al T.
12-29-2012, 11:29 AM
That particular technique has been floundering around for years (decades). In short, no. Modern technique has far surpassed that idea which was (IMHO) generated by shooters using handguns with miniscule hard to see sights.

Odin Bravo One
12-29-2012, 12:57 PM
SWAT had a great article on the history of point shooting, and the "Why" behind Applegate and Fairbain's fondness for the technique. Lack of sights that were usable on early 1911's/1903's (specifically) but also most other guns of the day, as well as lack of experience, training ammunition, or time.

If one is only going to shoot 50 rounds after buying a pistol, then let it sit until they need it, the point and shoot method is better than no method. But will not replace proper instruction, and practice of proven techniques. If it was as simple as point and shoot, everyone would be doing it. As it is, none of the top shooters use, advocate, or endorse such a concept except in grave and extreme circumstances, such as extreme close contact shooting.

Cookie Monster
12-29-2012, 01:18 PM
I dry practiced it this morning. Awkward and it changes a lot of things on initial grip and my middle finger is trained to do other things.

I didn't notice any benefits over other "target focus/point shooting" techniques. I didn't see the extension of the trigger finger make things line up any better. Awkward grip issues and relearning from thousands of draws make me give it a big thumbs down. Different techniques run in continuum and this "aim-point" described by the OP seems outside being used in a continuum. It changes the grip too much from what I would use for sighted fire.

My observations from 1/2 hour this morning.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

Chuck Haggard
12-29-2012, 02:02 PM
While this may be a nice to know emergency technique (I met a cop who's gunfight started with his trigger finger getting shot off as he started to draw his duty pistol) for certain rare circumstances, it has no other valid use IMHO.

Even for point shooting this sucks. You give up a lot of grip, for both weapon retention and recoil control, using only your ring and pinky finger to hold onto the pistol.

David Armstrong
12-29-2012, 04:12 PM
"Aim Point" shooting is different from "target focus/point shooting". True target focus/point shooting is used a lot and has a good record of success when one recognizes its limitations. "Aim Point", on the other hand, really never has caught on with anyone. It causes you to have a weakened grip on the firearm on top of the inherent limitations of traditional target focus shooting. I like target focus style point shooting as a tool shooters should have, but going beyond that to the "Aim Point" school doesn't seem to add much.

Dagga Boy
12-29-2012, 06:09 PM
I know multiple guys who are missing index fingers or the end of index fingers who HAVE to shoot with their middle finger. Not one single one of them shoots better than when they had an index finger or find it to be an advantage. Not a single top tier competitive shooter, military or L/E unit uses this system, and not a single unit that gets into a lot of gunfights use it.........so, other than the one retard on the internet who pushes it.........total fail.

Odin Bravo One
12-29-2012, 07:45 PM
Point shooting, regardless of who calls it what, or which finger is being used.......... still sucks.

Ed L
12-29-2012, 09:07 PM
H Basically, on a auto you lay the index finger alongside the gun and use the middle finger to pull the trigger. It's based on the universal human ability to point right at any object. It seems to make sense intellectually, if you know what i mean, but how does it work in practice?

If you examine it, it doesn't make sense intellectually, or in practice.

1. If point shooting is appropriate, the guns slide or barrel is what is used to point. You do not need to have your trigger finger along the gun to point it. The finger curled around the trigger does a fine enough job of pointing it because enough of the finger is pointed forward. The rest of the gun, be it the slide or the barrel (depending on the type of gun) becomes one large pointing finger as controlled by the hand.

2. When pullng the trigger with the middle finger, you do not have nearly as solid a grip or control of the gun since you only have two fingers on the grip. This is important in rapid firing and handling guns that have *any* type of recoil.

3. Using the middle finger is not ergonomic or natural while using the trigger finger is.

4. Keeping your pointing finger along the frame and pulling the trigger with your middle finger means that you must draw the gun with only your last two fingers. This is an extremely weak and fumble prone way to draw.

5. Holding the gun with two fingers curled around the grip is an extremely weak way to hold the trigger and to control recoil for follow-up shots.

6. If you need to hold someone at gunpoint, holding a gun with two fingers around the grip is a very weak way to do it.

7. Holding the gun with two fingers of the dominant hand on the grip does not integrate with a two handed hold.

Failure2Stop
12-30-2012, 09:43 AM
How often do you need to zero your index finger for this to work?
How do you know that you are actually pointing at what you think you are pointing at, and to what degree of precision?

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Tamara
12-30-2012, 10:04 AM
If this is such an awesome way to shoot a pistol, then why are pistols not designed to be shot this way? :confused:

Dagga Boy
12-30-2012, 10:58 AM
If this is such an awesome way to shoot a pistol, then why are pistols not designed to be shot this way? :confused:

Don't start........the Netard who is always pushing this also bothers not only my calm, but many of the manufacturers to design guns around this. The first "chopped Glock" I ever did was chopping a G23 to take G27 mags literally the day the 27 was released. It was done for my buddy who had his index finger blown off, and it worked so good we did all sorts of chops after that........but the rest of us still used our index fingers to press the trigger.

SecondsCount
12-30-2012, 01:40 PM
I am not sold on it.

At very close ranges, less than five feet, then I could see point shooting as an option but the part about changing the grip is not. Everyone who is an expert will tell you that your grip is the most important part of shooting a handgun.

Mr_White
12-31-2012, 06:48 PM
How do you know that you are actually pointing at what you think you are pointing at, and to what degree of precision?

Thank you for bringing that up. That is my problem every time the argument is used that 'you can naturally point your finger at anything.' I think reality is more like 'you can naturally point your finger toward anything you can see and it's pretty easy to con yourself about how precisely you have pointed your finger.'

JodyH
12-31-2012, 09:12 PM
we need a finger SIRT

will_1400
01-05-2013, 01:06 AM
Unless you mean mounting an Aimpoint RDS on your weapon of choice and getting good with it, I'll pass.

Panoply
01-29-2013, 10:39 PM
Cookie Monster, same reaction. Even more awkward when firing. It would require retraining yourself from all the years you've spent shooting using sights.

What is ' target focus style point shooting,' how does it differ from aim point shooting and is IT worth the effort to practice?

jetfire
01-30-2013, 09:21 AM
Target focus shooting, or threat focused shooting, whatever you want to call it is just looking at the target instead of at your sights. You don't need to practice doing it, because if you get good at shooting stuff using your sights, you'll automatically get good at target focused shooting.

NickA
01-30-2013, 12:15 PM
Target focus shooting, or threat focused shooting, whatever you want to call it is just looking at the target instead of at your sights. You don't need to practice doing it, because if you get good at shooting stuff using your sights, you'll automatically get good at target focused shooting.

Isn't there an actual name for that middle-finger - trigger-pulling thing? I think you had a post about it and the nut that advocates it a while back?

jetfire
01-30-2013, 12:20 PM
Yeah, I remember making fun of it. I'm mostly okay with the concept of point shooting, but the whole middle finger pulling the trigger thing is just a bridge too far.

ezthumper
01-30-2013, 12:33 PM
I wonder if this theory crafted shooting method somehow spawned out of the fast draw pistol crowd. Where you would pull a western style pistol, and have to shoot a balloon or metal plate from the hip. So someone trying to come up with away to become more accurate thought "hey! what if I....." thus the theory craft grew legs and walked to other venues.

However about 40 years ago, when my grandfather started to teach me how to use a pistol, he did say "It is like pointing at the target with your finger" he was referencing the the pistol to be an extension of the hand and not actually pointing with your finger as you pulled the trigger.

NickA
01-30-2013, 12:48 PM
Yeah, I remember making fun of it. I'm mostly okay with the concept of point shooting, but the whole middle finger pulling the trigger thing is just a bridge too far.

Pittsburgh. I knew it was a city name. Funny stuff:
gunnuts.net/2011/06/02/tales-from-the-inbox/

Shawn.L
01-30-2013, 02:05 PM
Good lord please don't call that the "Pittsburgh Technique ".

I recall a forum , Pafoa , where that guy was banned.

Tamara
01-30-2013, 02:17 PM
I recall a forum , Pafoa , where that guy was banned.

I don't recall any where he wasn't. :p

BigT
01-30-2013, 02:49 PM
I saw it in an issue of Combat Handgun a hundred years ago as the"Vermont Technique"

And we even bannned him from our South African forum.

TGS
01-31-2013, 01:20 PM
I don't recall any where he wasn't. :p

I think it'd be fun if he came to visit pistol-forum.com for a bit!


I saw it in an issue of Combat Handgun a hundred years ago as the"Vermont Technique"

And we even bannned him from our South African forum.

Wow. Banned internationally. That's something else.

DocGKR
01-31-2013, 02:23 PM
You guys are all full of it. I love Aimpoint shooting. I started using Aimpoints many years ago, slowly progressing from the Comp M2, to Comp M3, and now H1/T1's. I use Aimpoints on my handguns, shotguns, and rifles--Aimpoint shooting rocks!

NickA
01-31-2013, 02:28 PM
I think it'd be fun if he came to visit pistol-forum.com for a bit!

Not sure if it was the same guy or if he got banned but I think we did have a rabid point shooting advocate a while back.


You guys are all full of it. I love Aimpoint shooting. I started using Aimpoints many years ago, slowly progressing from the Comp M2, to Comp M3, and now H1/T1's. I use Aimpoints on my handguns, shotguns, and rifles--Aimpoint shooting rocks!
It's always the guy you least expect it from:p
Doc wins this thread.

BigT
01-31-2013, 02:44 PM
I think it'd be fun if he came to visit pistol-forum.com for a bit!



Wow. Banned internationally. That's something else.

Not just international bannage , but third world bannage to boot.

LSP972
02-04-2013, 09:41 AM
C'mon, folks. Anyone with any salt knows that is really a CIA assassination technique!:D

If this video reproduces, they freeze the frame and blow it up right when Ruby pulls the trigger. Youy can clearly see his middle finger on the trigger of the Colt revolver.

If the video doesn't reproduce, Google Jack Ruby. There are numerous still photos around that show it as well.

Incidentally, some bonehead showed up on our local gun board a few years back, promoting this BS. He claimed to be in Texas, next door to us, so we invited him to come show and convince us. We even offered to put him up overnight for his travel inconvenience. No sale. I wonder if this was the same internationally-acclaimed twit that was mentioned in this thread?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awy3h5QK7WI

.

Tom Givens
02-04-2013, 06:35 PM
Ruby was missing the last half of his index finger. He couldn't work a DA trigger with a stump. That is why he used this technique, not because it's a Ninja secret. Also, his muzzle was in contact with Oswald when he shot. Most of the internal damage to Oswald was from the muzzle gasses, which pureed his liver. Even this technique may work when the muzzle is touching the target.

LSP972
02-05-2013, 08:19 PM
Ruby was missing the last half of his index finger. He couldn't work a DA trigger with a stump. That is why he used this technique, not because it's a Ninja secret.


Your sarcasm-detection meter must on the fritz, Tom. I threw that out there for the conspiracy guys.:cool:

Didn't know about his finger, though. Interesting...

.

Tom Givens
02-05-2013, 11:14 PM
It musta been late and I missed it. I:cool: KNEW you knew better.

Ed L
02-06-2013, 12:57 AM
All anyone need do is compare both methods for themself.

Try holding and firing a handgun as normally taught and then try using the middle finger trigger pulling hold method--even dry firing. You should immediately see which one is ergonomically superior and feels more natural and solid and works better.

The guy with the webpage promoting the middle finger trigger pulling method did so based on something he was erroneously taught by someone in the US Army in the 1950s as a method of firing the M3 Greasegun. It seems that 50 years later he decided to put a webpage up about it, without realizing how little he knows about the subject or how utterly unergonomical and inferior the method he esposes is.

He's the equivalent of someone who learned to use a toilet incorrectly 55 years ago and not used one since who is now campaigning to get people to sit on a toilet backwards.

As already posted, he's been banned from virtually every firearms messageboard.

TGS
02-06-2013, 02:14 AM
As already posted, he's been banned from virtually every firearms messageboard.

He wouldn't happen to also be on an elite Mall Security SRT, would he? Sounds just as legendary.

Tamara
02-06-2013, 08:18 AM
He wouldn't happen to also be on an elite Mall Security SRT, would he? Sounds just as legendary.

No. Unlike Gecko45, he's actually serious.

NETim
02-06-2013, 08:44 AM
The things I don't learn here. :)

ToddG
02-06-2013, 09:47 AM
He's the equivalent of someone who learned to use a toilet incorrectly 55 years ago and not used one since who is now campaigning to get people to sit on a toilet backwards.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/534147/thumbs/s-SOUTH-PARK-large.jpg

Tamara
02-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Just don't say his name. Thanks to Google Alerts, everybody can be Beetlejuice now. :eek:

Panoply
02-08-2013, 08:42 AM
Doc Caleb
Caleb, I know what you mean. I used to be into traditional longbows (late teens, early 20's) and became good enough to not have to consciously aim. I could look at where I wanted the arrow, and that's where it went. It makes sense that firearms would be the same way.

Doc, so..... Aim point shooting is good? I'd have preferred a consensus, but the responses were overwhelmingly negative so I stick with tried and true. As I am no Olympic marksman it makes sense to become exceptionally proficient in the traditional way before trying that. But your response was important because I KNOW that at some future point I will try to learn this technique.

Tamara
02-08-2013, 08:45 AM
Doc, so..... Aim point shooting is good?

DocGKR was making a funny: Aimpoint (http://www.aimpoint.com/us/).

MDS
02-08-2013, 09:05 AM
You guys are all full of it. I love Aimpoint shooting. I started using Aimpoints many years ago, slowly progressing from the Comp M2, to Comp M3, and now H1/T1's. I use Aimpoints on my handguns, shotguns, and rifles--Aimpoint shooting rocks!

This, though I'm just starting my Aimpoint journey. Also, I shoot people with my middle finger all the time. Just ask my boss.

Ed L
02-08-2013, 07:25 PM
As mentioned, DocGKR was jokingly referring to using Aimpoint optics (presumably on longarms).



Doc, so..... Aim point shooting is good? I'd have preferred a consensus, but the responses were overwhelmingly negative so I stick with tried and true. As I am no Olympic marksman it makes sense to become exceptionally proficient in the traditional way before trying that. But your response was important because I KNOW that at some future point I will try to learn this technique.


When you say, "because I KNOW that at some future point I will try to learn this technique." Are you referring to middle finger triggerpulling or to using an AImpoint on a longarm?