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View Full Version : Shooting for a sense of innate accuracy.



SouthNarc
12-28-2012, 08:57 PM
So I managed to score a Storm Lake conversion barrel for my M&P 40 so now I can run 9 too. I haven't wrung it out at distance to see what it can really do yet. I've never really been "scientific" when doing shit like this and I figured if anyone had a system for doing this someone here would.

When you're shooting at 25 do you guys have a particular number of rounds that you always shoot to test the innate accuracy of the weapon? 5 rds, 10 rds per group? Just curious.

Matt O
12-28-2012, 09:44 PM
I think 10 round strings on a B8 target at 25 yards are generally considered a pretty good standard for testing the accuracy of a given pistol.

JHC
12-28-2012, 09:57 PM
IMO while shooting offhand at 25 yards is awesome training and evidence of what the shooter can do; to check mechanical accuracy I think it's useful to take a solid rest across sandbags or a pack etc; seated. Like checking a rifle from the bench.

While no doubt 10 rounds may be statistically sound - 10 requires dramatically more sustained focus and execution that the long standard of 5 shots at 25 yards. So for most; 10 round groups is going to introduce a LOT more shooter variable.

Work both.

And you'll need some quality ammunition. Again IMO, UMC, WWB, Blazer, Federal red box; all the cheaper training loads leave a lot to be desired accuracy wise. Speer Gold Dot has consistently shown me to be on of the more accurate loadings. American Eagle 147 is reasonably priced and has shown itself to be very accurate. I think there is a whole thread here somewhere about the AE 147 grain.


Gold Dot, HST, Ranger, and Corbon have shown me excellent accuracy. The old Federal 9BP 115 grain JHP also always demonstrated great accuracy in my guns but I haven't seen any on a shelf for quite some time. The RWS 115 grain FMJ "match grade" I just started a thread on appears to be very consistent ammo for the most part.

joshs
12-28-2012, 11:50 PM
I use 5, 5-shot groups to avoid the fatigue problem, but still have a sufficient number of shots to be confident of the results.

ford.304
12-29-2012, 09:24 AM
To some degree it also depends on what method you are using to measure spread. Theoretically you want the median distance from a center point... but that's kind of annoying to calculate. If you just use maximum spread, you are always going to get a bigger result the more rounds you fire, as there is more chance for an outlier/flier on your part.

The average of multiple five round groups tends to smooth out some of that variance and give you a better picture.

JodyH
12-29-2012, 10:20 AM
I use 5, 5-shot groups to avoid the fatigue problem, but still have a sufficient number of shots to be confident of the results.
+1
Pure slow fire fundamental accuracy shooting is fatiguing mentally and physically if you're doing it right.
3 round "groups" don't show you anything.
More than 5 and my results get skewed by mental errors.

I fold a 3x5 card in half and try to keep all 5 rounds on that at 25 yards.
The square shape seems to work well with my sight picture, and the white card on a buff target really stands out.

JHC
12-29-2012, 12:41 PM
+1
Pure slow fire fundamental accuracy shooting is fatiguing mentally and physically if you're doing it right.
3 round "groups" don't show you anything.
More than 5 and my results get skewed by mental errors.

I fold a 3x5 card in half and try to keep all 5 rounds on that at 25 yards.
The square shape seems to work well with my sight picture, and the white card on a buff target really stands out.

3x5 folded in half??? Well sure, if you shoot HKs. ;)

CCT125US
12-29-2012, 01:07 PM
3x5 folded in half??? Well sure, if you shoot HalfKardshooters. ;)

Sorry couldn't resist

JodyH
12-29-2012, 06:48 PM
3x5 folded in half??? Well sure, if you shoot HKs. ;)
I did say "try to keep all rounds on it". :p
My P2000, 25 yard sight picture just happens to be the 3"x2.5" target setting perfectly atop the front sight.
Takes some of the guesswork out of the sight alignment and frees up more mental juice for the trigger press.

JHC
12-29-2012, 07:28 PM
Sorry couldn't resist

And why should you???

Just a pure sight picture - makes sense.

senorlechero
01-04-2013, 07:09 PM
Are you trying to see what the gun is capable of, or to improve your accuracy?

If you're testing the gun, shoot it off a rest, or see if you can borrow a ransom rest.

If you're trying to improve you own accuracy, there are a bunch of ways to go about it, so I'll stick to what I know.

I shot on the MC pistol team and we started by firing on a blank target to hold 8 ring sized groups. Once you shot two of those in a row, you moved on to shooting at the B8 .
Once you had 2 in a row that kept all of them inside the black, you started shooting for 10s. Two in a row all 10s at 25 yds and you moved back to 50 and started over again.

I found that going for consistent results, as opposed to trying to achieve a certain score, made for better results.

GJM
01-04-2013, 07:42 PM
I think TLG has mentioned that a great way to test accuracy is to use a laser, and shoot off bags on a bench, as you can get the pistol very solid while placing the red dot on the target -- effectively taking your reading of the sights out of the equation.

orionz06
01-04-2013, 08:18 PM
I think TLG has mentioned that a great way to test accuracy is to use a laser, and shoot off bags on a bench, as you can get the pistol very solid while placing the red dot on the target -- effectively taking your reading of the sights out of the equation.

I have done this. I used a target that was bright enough to show the laser and then a small aiming point that was black and did not show the laser. A black paster works. The wife was a spotter and we both confirmed it was on target prior to firing. It works for some but I have been able to replicate the best laser groups with irons only.


I have the laser sitting around collecting dust if someone wants to borrow it. I'll even trade it for a Clinch Pick. :evil grin:

SouthNarc
01-05-2013, 12:17 AM
Are you trying to see what the gun is capable of, or to improve your accuracy?



Just see what the gun is capable of. I know how to bench rest at 25 I just wondered what everyone's standard "group" round count was.

I like the idea of 5 rounds five times on five different small targets.

TCinVA
01-05-2013, 01:32 AM
That's a good one. More than 5 rounds in a string tends to give me eye fatigue when I'm shooting for maximum accuracy.

A good laser helps considerably.

CCT125US
01-05-2013, 12:14 PM
Problem with the laser is the movement produced by all the interfacing parts. Put enough distance on it and the problem just magnifies. Frame flex, slide to frame fit, laser mount movement all adds up and can affect consistency. Now if that is less movement than what the shooters eye and irons are capable of, then great. I just know not all lasers and mounts are created equal. And this from a guy who uses a TLR2 several hours a week.

psalms144.1
01-09-2013, 03:02 PM
SouthNarc - I've always used the 5 groups of 5 standard - mostly because I KNOW I'm lazy and undisciplined. Shooting groups at 25 yards is like watching paint dry to me (and I blame my wife for the kids' ADHD :p) - so I know I'm going to rush if I try to shoot more than five in a string...

Regards,

Kevin

1slow
02-16-2013, 03:17 AM
SouthNarc

I also like 5 shot groups repeated 5-10 times, sometimes on multiple days. Have consistent light conditions.

Ross Seyfried did an article on a British target idea.
An upside down T was used, sized such that at the range shot the vertical stem appeared to be the same width as your front sight. This give you a good windage index.
The bottom cross bar of the inverted T gives you a good index of elevation. I have had good results with this.

I have also found lasers as well as red dot optics (Aimpoint T1) to be helpful. I have used X400s and CT grips. All the previous tolerance stack issues should be considered.
YMMV.

JHC
02-16-2013, 03:55 PM
SouthNarc

I also like 5 shot groups repeated 5-10 times, sometimes on multiple days. Have consistent light conditions.

Ross Seyfried did an article on a British target idea.
An upside down T was used, sized such that at the range shot the vertical stem appeared to be the same width as your front sight. This give you a good windage index.
The bottom cross bar of the inverted T gives you a good index of elevation. I have had good results with this.

I have also found lasers as well as red dot optics (Aimpoint T1) to be helpful. I have used X400s and CT grips. All the previous tolerance stack issues should be considered.
YMMV.

A rifleman friend showed me that inverted T some years ago. That is an outstanding target for the reasons you mentioned.

Edwin
05-18-2014, 07:31 PM
Sorry for resurrecting this long dead thread but I have a few questions that the answers were alluded to in this thread. I am looking for help on this because I need to make the decision on whether or not to get a KKM or Bar-Sto match grade barrel fitted for my Hi Power when I send it in to Novak for sights installation next week.

Is there a guide someone can point me to for finding out the mechanical accuracy for my pistol? If I understood the previous posts correctly, to do this you would bench rest a 5-shot group to a target at 25 yards. I don't have access to a random rest and can't afford to buy one, so how do you bench rest shoot a pistol? I'm looking for a step-by-step guide on how to do this.

How do you test with a laser? I don't have a rail so I assume you're using Crimson Trace grips or something else?

BullseyePistolCompetitor
09-18-2014, 08:37 PM
No fewer than 30 shots from a rest on a b6 target at 50 yards. To measure how accurate you are, you must first measure how precise your tool is. I recommend 80 shots to see the extreme spread. If you test at 25 yards, I recommend using the B-16 target. A score of 100-8x from a rest is very good. A score of 95 unsupported shows mastery of your pistol shooting skills, that is one handed, of course.

JHC
09-19-2014, 07:05 AM
No fewer than 30 shots from a rest on a b6 target at 50 yards. To measure how accurate you are, you must first measure how precise your tool is. I recommend 80 shots to see the extreme spread. If you test at 25 yards, I recommend using the B-16 target. A score of 100-8x from a rest is very good. A score of 95 unsupported shows mastery of your pistol shooting skills, that is one handed, of course.

For most shooters that haven't shot bullseye, do you suppose that so many rounds is speaking more to the shooters endurance to focus than on the mechanical precision of the pistol?

BullseyePistolCompetitor
09-19-2014, 07:03 PM
JHC, From a rest, and taking breaks, you can shoot 80 rounds over several days.

JHC
09-19-2014, 07:21 PM
JHC, From a rest, and taking breaks, you can shoot 80 rounds over several days.

OHHHHH sorry. Got it.