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YVK
04-05-2011, 06:44 PM
So I've bee working on my first shot out, that is, for last 18 months or so. Pressouts, dry and live, watching myself as I draw in a mirror, waste elimination. So far, no dice. My accuracy becomes a thing of random nature when I get to about 2.2 mark (3x5, 24 feet or so).
Today I decided to figure out how much it takes me just to do the mechanical part - draw, point out at target to the best of my ability but without actual aiming, press the trigger. Two things surprised me. First, 8 out of 10 hits with this point shooting thing. Second, the best I could do was 1.8 seconds. Now, I am not making it easy - relatively tight sweater with compression band at the bottom, strong-side IWB, leather holster, but still.... Am I just too freakin slow, or it's expected with this degree of concealment, or what? Comments, suggestions?

zRxz
04-05-2011, 07:02 PM
The biggest thing that helped me reduce my draw times (1.4 on a Safariland 6004) was to be aware when I could move my hands quickly to and out of certain positions during the drawstroke. When I hear the buzzer or the command to fire, I drive my hands to my weapon as quickly as I can, almost making it a flinch reaction. While I slow to disengage the retention hood, once the pistol is free, I quickly tear the gun up to begin the press out. There I slow down again (relatively speaking) and begin to push the gun out as I shift my focus to my front sight and begin to break the shot. For the concealed game, this translates into quickly moving my support hand to get a handful of the covering garment so I can give it a good yank upwards (again, moving quickly enough that your skeleton might punch through your skin), establishing a one-handed grip, and ripping the gun out of the holster and into your press-out position. After that, well. That's been covered before.

JHC
04-05-2011, 07:11 PM
Well it takes many thousands of reps in my experience to get unconcious. 1.8 seconds from under a snug garment to make a hit does not sound bad at all, 1.59 to first hit on a clean FAST drill is the best I've seen lately but that is from an open jacket from a kydex OWB holster. From a garment like you described and IWB - I dunno if 0.2 margin would be enough margin for me to match that. And I fancy myself fairly quick. LOL (just kidding BA's). [I'm trying to ignore the point shooting part ;) ]

JV_
04-05-2011, 07:16 PM
I can usually get a sub 1.7 hit on an index card at 7 yards, when I'm really moving and warmed up, 1.5x is doable. That's from an untucked polo and an AIWB holster.

What helped me the most was realizing, with the help of ToddG, that I can get my hand on the gun and be working on that grip while the other hand is getting the shirt out of the way. They can be (almost) parallel tasks.

GJM
04-05-2011, 07:35 PM
If you are trying to measure pure speed, why not first time your draw from an OWB kydex holster, without cover, and check your time to an A zone hit at 7 yards? That would eliminate variables that are hard to quantify, like the type of concealment garment, and the precision of the 3x5 card hit as opposed to the A zone.

JodyH
04-05-2011, 07:53 PM
As posted earlier, move both hands simultaneously.
Work on moving your hand to the gun as quickly as possible.
Get your grip right.
I repeat... GET YOUR GRIP right.
Then I like to get a mental picture of RIPPING the gun straight up out of the holster, I mean really try to jerk it straight up and out as fast as possible.
Now, get on the front sight and track it all the way to the trigger press.
When my draws slow down it can usually be traced to lazy hand movements.
Lazy hands getting to the gun and/or lazy hands getting the gun from the holster to my line of sight.

YVK
04-05-2011, 10:03 PM
If you are trying to measure pure speed, why not first time your draw from an OWB kydex holster, without cover, and check your time to an A zone hit at 7 yards? That would eliminate variables that are hard to quantify, like the type of concealment garment, and the precision of the 3x5 card hit as opposed to the A zone.

GJM, I know I am faster out of OWB kydex, so this is certainly one variable. The gist of the question is how the hell all these guys get the first aimed hit at sub-2 second time (I am not even talking 1.5) when I can barely get a non-aimed shot at the same time.
Thanks to all for advice.

Slavex
04-06-2011, 12:30 AM
I don't remember who told me (might've been Todd even), but for pure speed, you need to change the way you respond to the stimuli of the start signal, whatever it is. The normal response is to wait for the beep on a timer to end, before you really start moving. you need to try and get yourself moving as soon as you hear the start of the beep. Drills to start working on this include putting the gun up on target (at like 3ft) finger on the trigger, and on the beep try and get that shot off before the beep ends. Once you can do that reliably, try working your way back to the holster step by step.
For me the next biggest gain in speed on a draw came from simply moving my hands to the gun faster, getting a good grip (the slowest part of the whole thing) and then as JodyH says, ripping that gun up and out as fast as you can (safely obviously). People often look really relaxed when they are going for their gun, a ton of speed can be made up here.

LittleLebowski
04-06-2011, 05:57 AM
GJM, I know I am faster out of OWB kydex, so this is certainly one variable. The gist of the question is how the hell all these guys get the first aimed hit at sub-2 second time (I am not even talking 1.5) when I can barely get a non-aimed shot at the same time.
Thanks to all for advice.

I'm right alongside JV in speed as he verified (put me on the frigging spot :)) and it's all about the press out.

JV_
04-06-2011, 06:04 AM
(put me on the frigging spot :))I've always been a "show me" kind of guy :cool:

LittleLebowski
04-06-2011, 07:09 AM
Hey, I'm not complaining. Put my money where my mouth was :D

Jay Cunningham
04-06-2011, 07:31 AM
So I've bee working on my first shot out, that is, for last 18 months or so. Pressouts, dry and live, watching myself as I draw in a mirror, waste elimination. So far, no dice. My accuracy becomes a thing of random nature when I get to about 2.2 mark (3x5, 24 feet or so).
Today I decided to figure out how much it takes me just to do the mechanical part - draw, point out at target to the best of my ability but without actual aiming, press the trigger. Two things surprised me. First, 8 out of 10 hits with this point shooting thing. Second, the best I could do was 1.8 seconds. Now, I am not making it easy - relatively tight sweater with compression band at the bottom, strong-side IWB, leather holster, but still.... Am I just too freakin slow, or it's expected with this degree of concealment, or what? Comments, suggestions?

Have you tried the Press Six (http://pistol-training.com/drills/press-six) drill yet?

ToddG
04-06-2011, 07:50 AM
Am I just too freakin slow, or it's expected with this degree of concealment, or what? Comments, suggestions?

The question isn't whether you're slower today than someone else. The question is, are you faster today than you were a year ago?

Videotape your draw on the range hitting a reasonably "fast" target such as a sheet of paper or paper plate at 7yd, preferably without a concealment garment for now. Go as fast as you can get your hits, and video five to ten draws. Then video yourself doing a couple of slow, deliberate draws (think half or even quarter speed).

How do the fast draws compare to the slow draws in terms of technique. Are there inconsistencies? Stutters? When you start to go fast, does the economy of motion slip? Are both hands constantly doing things simultaneously or are you going through the drawstroke in discrete serial steps?

MechEng
04-06-2011, 08:34 AM
Video can be an extremely valuable training tool for many skill related tasks. It can be a very humbling experience critiquing yourself in a video clip.

LittleLebowski
04-06-2011, 09:20 AM
I can usually get a sub 1.7 hit on an index card at 7 yards, when I'm really moving and warmed up, 1.5x is doable. That's from an untucked polo and an AIWB holster.

What helped me the most was realizing, with the help of ToddG, that I can get my hand on the gun and be working on that grip while the other hand is getting the shirt out of the way. They can be (almost) parallel tasks.

I could have written this post, word for word.

YVK
04-06-2011, 09:24 AM
That's actually a part I have hard time wrapping my brain around - I do try to move my hands together but until that sweater is out of the way, my strong hand isn't getting on that grip.

Seems like video is the answer for now.

WyoXd
04-07-2011, 08:00 PM
I've spent the last couple of weeks really trying to improve my draw speed thru dry fire practice. I've been really concentrating on three aspects of my draw: 1) a strong, consistant grip in the holster, 2) efficient pressouts, and 3) an overall more relaxed draw stroke. After about a week of focusing on these 3 things in daily practice I noticed what felt like a significant improvement in my draw.

Whatever fraction of time it takes for me to ensure a good grip in the holster seems to set my entire draw on the right track. I didn't use to incorporate a trigger press very often into my draw practice, but to improve my pressouts it seems pretty necessary. So, I have been drawing to an IDPA target @ 6-7 yards (in my basement)while incorporating a trigger press. My pressouts are much improved, but I still have a lot of work to do.

What I have probably noticed the most is how much smoother and quicker my draw is now that I am trying to relax more. When I start "trying too hard" to go fast my times slow down. I could really see this when I started adjusting my par times on my timer.

Two weeks ago at the range, my fastest draws (to an IDPA target @ 7 yds from a Comp Tac paddle holster with my Gen4 Glock 17--no concealment) were hovering around the 1.2s mark. And that was pushing it about as hard as I could and still get most of my A zone hits. To this point I had never broken the 1 second barrier with this gun. Today I finally got back to the range and got probably 20-30 sub 1 second draws. And I didn't feel like I was trying as hard. Granted I wasn't getting all A hits (gotta keep working on my darn trigger press), but two weeks ago I couldn't have broken 1 second to save my life!

Keebsley
04-10-2011, 09:43 AM
This isn't dealing with the speed issue because I'm a turtle in the fast lane but I'll try to address the accuracy issue.

YK...Mr. Grumpy probably said it better (and probably in a more..."tactful" manner) but when you draw and press out, look for where you want the round to go. Your pistol and front sight should come into view and as you track the front sight towars where your sight is focused already, press the shot.

It was reiterated to me in my most recent firearms instructor class and it works.

YVK
04-10-2011, 11:18 AM
So does Mr. Grumpy subscribe to a target focus aiming?

I'll have a pleasure of his company in short three weeks; you aren't coming this year?

Keebsley
04-10-2011, 12:33 PM
So does Mr. Grumpy subscribe to a target focus aiming?

I'll have a pleasure of his company in short three weeks; you aren't coming this year?

I can't speak for Mr. Grumpy himself (and I wouldn't want to because there is a reason why he has that nickname but...) I wouldn't necessarily he subscribes to target focus aiming as with a press out you pick up your front sight as it crosses your sight. I just know that focusing on where I wanted the round to go as I drew, it worked for me as I tracked the front sight when it appeared and the press out was linear to where I was looking.

As for me coming this year, that would be a no joy. Got a wedding to pay for and a kid coming so my funds have been nonexistent. Wanted to make it again but it just wasn't in the cards this year. Tell Matt and everyone there hello from the Asian though. :D

Clobbersaurus
11-13-2014, 08:36 PM
I apologize for the necro post, but I'm bumping this thread for two reason:

1) JodyH and Slavex's posts in this thread are excellent.

2) I am looking for suggestions of other drills, other than command fire (that Slavex posted about) that can help me improve speed of movement off my timers beep. I did some slow motion video and my hand is barely getting to my gun before the beep is over on my concealed draw stroke, and I think that's pretty slow. Basically I want to decrease my reaction time to the beep. Any suggestions?

GJM
11-13-2014, 09:06 PM
I apologize for the necro post, but I'm bumping this thread for two reason:

1) JodyH and Slavex's posts in this thread are excellent.

2) I am looking for suggestions of other drills, other than command fire (that Slavex posted about) that can help me improve speed of movement off my timers beep. I did some slow motion video and my hand is barely getting to my gun before the beep is over on my concealed draw stroke, and I think that's pretty slow. Basically I want to decrease my reaction time to the beep. Any suggestions?

Get the Stoeger dry fire book, "Dry Fire Training," and do the draw micro drills.

I happened to be speaking with Origami tonight, and he was able to hit the head on a USPSA target in .90 something from concealment in the last day or two. He was unhappy he couldn't get in the .80's.

lightning fast
11-13-2014, 09:13 PM
Get the Stoeger dry fire book, "Dry Fire Training," and do the draw micro drills.


This.

You can easily, and I cannot stress "easily" enough, hit .60s from buzzer to sight picture.

LittleLebowski
11-13-2014, 09:15 PM
So I've bee working on my first shot out, that is, for last 18 months or so. Pressouts, dry and live, watching myself as I draw in a mirror, waste elimination. So far, no dice. My accuracy becomes a thing of random nature when I get to about 2.2 mark (3x5, 24 feet or so).
Today I decided to figure out how much it takes me just to do the mechanical part - draw, point out at target to the best of my ability but without actual aiming, press the trigger. Two things surprised me. First, 8 out of 10 hits with this point shooting thing. Second, the best I could do was 1.8 seconds. Now, I am not making it easy - relatively tight sweater with compression band at the bottom, strong-side IWB, leather holster, but still.... Am I just too freakin slow, or it's expected with this degree of concealment, or what? Comments, suggestions?

When I'm not rusty, I'm in the 1.6 or more range from AIWB to a 3x5 and that's after warming up.

A few months ago, a buddy (whom I've smoked on this before and on video) destroyed me on speed and accuracy by trying something different. He was faster and just as accurate. I remember laughing when he told me that he cleared his cover garment with his strong side hand. I wasn't laughing when he burned me down, shooting a small popper at 7-ish yards from concealment.

Anyway, don't be afraid to think out of the box a little.

I think you're in the zone for IWB.

LittleLebowski
11-13-2014, 09:17 PM
Get the Stoeger dry fire book, "Dry Fire Training," and do the draw micro drills.

I happened to be speaking with Origami tonight, and he was able to hit the head on a USPSA target in .90 something from concealment in the last day or two. He was unhappy he couldn't get in the .80's.

In.

GJM
11-13-2014, 09:22 PM
I happened to be speaking with Origami tonight, and he was able to hit the head on a USPSA target in .90 something from concealment in the last day or two. He was unhappy he couldn't get in the .80's.

Oh, I left the important part out -- hit the head at 25 yards in the .90's.

Malamute
11-13-2014, 09:54 PM
Interesting topic.

I'd like to learn more about it, I didn't have much to go on in the past. I've only drawn on a timer once. I'm sure I'm glacial at this point.

Clobbersaurus
11-13-2014, 10:41 PM
Oh, I left the important part out -- hit the head at 25 yards in the .90's.

Crazy fast and skilled. I've watched a lot of his video's, awesome stuff.

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll pick it up.

Right now I think my best 1st shot on a 3.5 card during a timed FAST was 1.85ish. That's with a vest and an OWB holster, using a press out. That was an "I know I hit the 3.5 card" time and cold. I feel like I should be in the 1.6 range, which is what my PAR time is in dry fire.

KeeFus
11-14-2014, 06:20 AM
Oh, I left the important part out -- hit the head at 25 yards in the .90's.

OAK has the juice! Jesus that's fast! I just watched his video that I assume he was referring too. I hope he doesn't mind that I'm posting it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkwV_Z9M-Vs

Irelander
11-14-2014, 08:55 AM
This is a great thread with lots of good info that I am eating up.

My issue right now is getting a master grip with drawing from an IWB holster at 4:00. I've been dry fire practicing a lot more lately and I can get a "good" grip fast on my G19 but I am usually adjusting my grip after the shot to my master grip. With the grip tucked into my side nicely it really inhibits my master grip but the concealment is great. When I work on getting my master grip on the draw my speed goes way down. I'm getting a JMCK IWB3 holster soon so I am hoping that will improve things a bit. Should be getting my IWB holster for my 1911 CCO soon too. I am anxious to see the difference in drawing that weapon from IWB.

JHC
11-14-2014, 09:06 AM
When I'm not rusty, I'm in the 1.6 or more range from AIWB to a 3x5 and that's after warming up.

A few months ago, a buddy (whom I've smoked on this before and on video) destroyed me on speed and accuracy by trying something different. He was faster and just as accurate. I remember laughing when he told me that he cleared his cover garment with his strong side hand. I wasn't laughing when he burned me down, shooting a small popper at 7-ish yards from concealment.

Anyway, don't be afraid to think out of the box a little.

I think you're in the zone for IWB.

Was he also carrying AIWB?

LittleLebowski
11-14-2014, 09:27 AM
Was he also carrying AIWB?

Yup, both times. His new technique (which is not perfect for every situation and carry garment) really taught me the importance of getting a master grip ASAP.

Mr_White
11-14-2014, 11:03 AM
KeeFus,

That is the right video and I appreciate the kind words. Those draws are the best attempts in pushing a narrow drill – draw and hit a tight target – they are not representative of on-demand performance.

Clobbersaurus,

I'd second the recommendation for the Ben Stoeger materials and the micro-drills related to the draw.

Reaction time is a part of what you can do to make your draw faster, but it's not the only thing or the largest thing.

React to the beep
Snap the hands to clear any concealment and get master grip
Rocket the gun out of the holster and into two handed grip
Drive the gun to its final position
Look for your visual reference to arrive
Stop the gun smoothly and finish the trigger

I think all those can contribute to a fast draw. Everyone is going to conceptualize it in different ways though.

The character of movement is an interesting point and one that gets straight into the 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' discussion that's gone on recently. I think there is some overall speed to be gotten from rapid acceleration and deceleration in the various subparts of the draw – a lot like a punch or block from any number of martial arts. There can be a blending of (or maybe oscillation between) soft and hard movements. Some might describe it as 'crisp', others might see it as 'jerky.' The timer and target (or sight picture in dry fire) will tell you the truth though.

Irelander,

You might try experimenting with the angle of attack of your master hand getting on the grip.

The traditional way is to bring the hand down onto the grip, and with IWB, that will probably include shoving the thumb between the gun and the body.

It might be worth experimenting with bringing the master hand onto the grip from the outside, and maybe letting the thumb lay on the back of the slide until the gun is being lifted out of the holster.

Not saying that will necessarily solve anything for you, but maybe it's worth trying out.

JAD
11-14-2014, 01:23 PM
The character of movement is an interesting point and one that gets straight into the 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' discussion that's gone on recently. I think there is some overall speed to be gotten from rapid acceleration and deceleration in the various subparts of the draw – a lot like a punch or block from any number of martial arts. There can be a blending of (or maybe oscillation between) soft and hard movements. Some might describe it as 'crisp', others might see it as 'jerky.'
I had that same thought while watching your videos. I don't know if that movement feels 'jerky,' but it doesn't look it, at all. I think what looks unsmooth is extraneous motion, and I think if you're going really fast you don't have time for non-essential movement.

NickA
11-14-2014, 03:43 PM
Where have you guys found yourselves or others wasting motion? Any tips for keeping it to a minimum?
Also a step-by-step video or guide to optimize the AIWB draw by OAK (or whoever) would be awesome. As cool as the video above is, it's kinda hard to catch the nuances in less than a second :-)

Peally
11-14-2014, 04:29 PM
I'm just speaking for myself, but personally my wasted motion is usually between the buzzer going off and getting a grip on the gun. Coming at it from wonky angles doesn't help (for example, with thumb break retention holsters I used to find myself coming down in a big deliberate motion when I could just sweep the break off as I got a grip).

When acting as an RO for others I also frequently see the "bowling" and "fishing" during the press/punch out instead of people just bringing the gun along the shortest path to full extension.

Also, getting my support hand close to the holster instead of letting it wait to catch the gun near my chest helps establish a better grip as well (for me at least)

Clobbersaurus
11-14-2014, 09:53 PM
OAK, thank you for the response and the break down of the draw stroke. I very much appreciate it.

A couple of months ago I switched to a more pure press out, and it's improving my 1st shot accuracy on low probability targets, like the 3.5 card on the FAST. The press out is helping me to get on the sights faster and in that it has been a good change. But it's definitely a slower movement for me in terms of getting the gun out to full extension. Somewhere in the order of .3 slower, if I go by what my par times are in dry fire.

A long time ago you wrote an excellent post, which for some reason I can't find now, where you used stick figures illustrated your take on different draw strokes. That was excellent stuff, and I think for me the fastest (best) draw stroke, yet to be realized, is probably somewhere between the press out and punch out, once my eyes co-operate unconsciously.

The buzzer question is just one piece of the entire thing, that I know I can shave time off.

GJM
11-14-2014, 10:59 PM
At the risk of stirring up controversy, the press out is a fantastic intermediate to advanced intermediate skill. Just Wednesday, I think, OAK told me that abandoning the press out had been one of the best things he did for improving his draw speed. See many top shooters using the press out?

Stick the pistol out in a direct line to the target, developing your index so the pistol arrives where you want, confirm sight alignment, and press the trigger commensurate with the difficulty of the shot. Watch your times and hit ratio improve. :)

joshs
11-14-2014, 11:10 PM
At the risk of stirring up controversy, the press out is a fantastic intermediate to advanced intermediate skill. Just Wednesday, I think, OAK told me that abandoning the press out had been one of the best things he did for improving his draw speed. See many top shooters using the press out?

Stick the pistol out in a direct line to the target, developing your index so the pistol arrives where you want, confirm sight alignment, and press the trigger commensurate with the difficulty of the shot. Watch your times and hit ratio improve. :)

You're not pressing a DA trigger before reaching extension?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

Jay Cunningham
11-14-2014, 11:14 PM
At the risk of stirring up controversy, the press out is a fantastic intermediate to advanced intermediate skill. Just Wednesday, I think, OAK told me that abandoning the press out had been one of the best things he did for improving his draw speed. See many top shooters using the press out?

Stick the pistol out in a direct line to the target, developing your index so the pistol arrives where you want, confirm sight alignment, and press the trigger commensurate with the difficulty of the shot. Watch your times and hit ratio improve. :)

I agree with this. People get wrapped around the axle with trigger prep but what I'm teaching these days hardly seems to require it and apparently (viewing results) works well.

Clobbersaurus
11-15-2014, 12:03 AM
At the risk of stirring up controversy, the press out is a fantastic intermediate to advanced intermediate skill. Just Wednesday, I think, OAK told me that abandoning the press out had been one of the best things he did for improving his draw speed. See many top shooters using the press out?

Stick the pistol out in a direct line to the target, developing your index so the pistol arrives where you want, confirm sight alignment, and press the trigger commensurate with the difficulty of the shot. Watch your times and hit ratio improve. :)

I'm seeing improvement in hit ratio with the press out and I like it for other reasons. I'm not ready to abandon it yet, but I think a progression is probably coming, once I feel I've gone as far as I can go with it.

GJM
11-15-2014, 07:12 AM
You're not pressing a DA trigger before reaching extension?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

Josh, I have gravitated to getting on all trigger types later, and then pressing the entire trigger in one motion. Present, pause, roll. I find that it minimizes anticipation, and doesn't cost me speed. All goes back to the conversation I had with Wayne Dobbs in a thread in shooting groups quickly.

YVK
11-15-2014, 10:28 AM
I don't want to interrupt you monogamous run with a Glock; otherwise I would've ask to post a video of shooting a Beretta on timer.

My personal evolution in understanding a draw speed lies in acceptance of facts that different guns require different techniques (even though the technique differences aren't as big as it may seem), and that different targets require different trigger work (statement of obvious, but with DA gun I find it important to mention).

Speaking of evolution, the original post in this necro-thread is mine, lamenting how I can't reliably hit faster than 2.2 sec from concealment. Three years later this is my average time for two shots, and I've broken 1.5 a couple of times with DA or LEM guns.
Goes to show that evolution happens, even if very slow.

GJM
11-15-2014, 10:33 AM
Imagine how much faster you would be if you got the lead out?

1slow
11-15-2014, 10:38 AM
Something I found helpful. Run the timer on the following.
Aimed in, beep to shot.
Both hands on gun, beep to shot.
Strong hand on holstered gun in shooting grip, beep to shot.
Complete draw stroke from ready, beep to shot.

This helps me to find my biggest time wasters.

jetfire
11-15-2014, 10:39 AM
My own draw started as a classic 3 (or 4) part draw, went to a press-out, then a modified press out, to what it is now: get the gun out of the holster and move it in as direct a line to the target as possible. With a wheelie gun I'm consistently a 1.2 fro, concealment to a wide open IDPA down zero, and about a 1.7 to a 3x5 card. I know I'm slowing down too much for the 3x5 but my practice schedule of late hadn't afforded me the opportunity to fix that.

Jay Cunningham
11-15-2014, 12:32 PM
Present, pause, roll. I find that it minimizes anticipation, and doesn't cost me speed.

I agree with this. People are done a horrible disservice when they are taught to shoot by "slowly taking all the slack out of the trigger" and achieving the vaunted surprise break. That methodology doesn't defeat anticipation, it causes it.

I'm convinced a lot of the stuff that is currently taught comes out of bullseye competition, wherein it makes much more sense.

joshs
11-15-2014, 01:40 PM
Josh, I have gravitated to getting on all trigger types later, and then pressing the entire trigger in one motion. Present, pause, roll. I find that it minimizes anticipation, and doesn't cost me speed. All goes back to the conversation I had with Wayne Dobbs in a thread in shooting groups quickly.

I remember that thread, and I thought you said you were still taking the slack out on a Glock before extension.

My draw is definitely faster with a DA gun if I begin pressing the trigger before full extension. I've experimented both ways and cannot get under a second with "present, pause, press" using an 8+ pound DA trigger.

ETA: I'd also note that I've seen TLG do way too many sub-.9 draws from concealment with a press-out to think that it's only an "advanced intermediate" technique. I don't bring the gun up as muzzle high as he does, but I still consider what I'm doing as a "press-out." What I do looks a lot like the last video you posted of a draw with a Beretta. I consider that a press-out, but it sounds like you don't. I think it's more an issue of terminology than technique.

YVK
11-15-2014, 01:59 PM
Imagine how much faster you would be if you got the lead out?

LOL. I'd be so fast that I'd be faster than you are. You'd then have to reconsider and go back to press out. That would be an ultimate trolling on my part.

I am glad though that I am no longer doing a classic L-shaped press out. Tom tells me it doesn't work well with a respirator.

joshs
11-15-2014, 02:13 PM
As an example of my point about terminology v. technique, here is a still from a video OAK recently posted (hope he doesn't mind since it was a public video). To me, it still looks like he is bringing the pistol high while it is close to his body, then pushing the gun out. He's way to fast to see if his finger is on the trigger at this point, but I don't think that really makes a difference when shooting SFA or SA pistols.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/josh_savani/ScreenShot2014-11-15at15705PM.png

Tamara
11-15-2014, 04:07 PM
I don't want to be a Tactical Tammy, so what you're saying here is that instead of doing a 3 (or 4) Step Draw, I should instead just Get a firing grip on the gun, Lift it clear of the holster, Rotate the muzzle downrange, Get both hands on the gun, and Drive the gun onto the target, but really fast?

Will it go faster if done smoothly? Asking for a friend.

jetfire
11-15-2014, 04:18 PM
I don't want to be a Tactical Tammy, so what you're saying here is that instead of doing a 3 (or 4) Step Draw, I should instead just Get a firing grip on the gun, Lift it clear of the holster, Rotate the muzzle downrange, Get both hands on the gun, and Drive the gun onto the target, but really fast?

Will it go faster if done smoothly? Asking for a friend.

I chuckled at my desk.

ssb
11-15-2014, 05:30 PM
Reading this thread has been helpful. I modified my drawstroke slightly, and mostly eliminated the almost-high ready I'd pause at to get a full two-handed grip -- moving instead towards the "move it in as direct a line to the target as possible" idea that caleb suggested.

I'm at a point where, dry firing, I can consistently (95% of the time) clear the holster and press out to full extension with a 1.6 par time (10 feet, 8.5x11" paper folded in half as the "target"). The trigger (DA) is prepped during the press out, always at least to 50%, and I'm trying for more (if I push too hard, the shot breaks prematurely). I can usually break the shot within 1.75, but that slow-down seems to be magnified in live fire. There is consistently a pause at the end of my press out.

I have a tendency to want to clean up the sights before finishing the trigger pull, and I think right now that's the biggest impediment to a faster shot. It happens maybe 50-60% of the time, and the front sight won't be where I want it to be -- usually off to one side or another. But even where there's a good/acceptable sight picture, I'll still pause. I don't know if it's a mental block, with me not wanting to break the shot too soon or what. I know that when I try to speed through it I almost always end up with a sloppy trigger pull and what would be a thrown shot. As it stands, this feels like the biggest impediment to my overall draw-to-shot speed. Any ideas?

GJM
11-15-2014, 09:08 PM
This is what I believe is the fundamental difference between a press out and present/pause. With the press out, you are trying to acquire the sights as soon as possible, and the price you pay for that is a circutitous path with the muzzle. With present/pause, you rely on your index to get the pistol out, generally in the most direct path possible, then you confirm the sights, making any adjustment that is required.

The motion of moving the pistol in a press out is almost infinitely variable, depending upon the target. Present/pause should be the same presentation regardless of target, with the variability being only in the refinement of the sights and the trigger speed based on target difficulty.

An often reported benefit of the press out is you have the sights on the target before touching the trigger. Some folks start working the trigger as the pistol is presented with present/pause, creating a debate on the advisability of that. As of late, I have started getting on the trigger later, working the whole press in one motion, rather than prepping the trigger on the way out with present/pause. The primary shooting advantage is this one motion method reduces anticipation. A secondary benefit is that getting on the trigger later is "safer" in terms of sights on the target before manipulating the trigger. I suspect this method is even "safer"than the press out as you are only working the trigger after you are extended and locked-up. I think another small benefit of the present/pause method is the gun is more reliable, because you are firing with it locked up as opposed to possibly while moving.

Josh, as to some video from last spring, how I shoot today may well be different than yesterday, and hopefully different than last month or last year. I see it as an ongoing process, subject to continuous revision.

Surf
11-16-2014, 03:29 PM
I have a few draw strokes depending on carry type, target size, distance, time or needed accuracy / precision. But primarily I have a press out and a 45* to the target.

Up close in a perceived retentive situation I default to a higher draw and press out if possible. Longer distance with time on my side and good accuracy I tend to have a high draw and a press where I am touching trigger (setting my trigger finger) early but sights on target. This allows me to focus, pick up sights and I exhale on the press, so everything is set when I hit extension. Very much a mental routine as a mechanical process. This is a deliberate type of draw / presentation.

Up close, speed on paper, 45* towards target.

MVS
11-17-2014, 09:57 PM
Get the Stoeger dry fire book, "Dry Fire Training," and do the draw micro drills.

.

Is that a different book than the 15 minutes to success dry fire book he does with Jay Hirshberg? I don't see those micro draw drills in there.

GJM
11-17-2014, 10:01 PM
Is that a different book than the 15 minutes to success dry fire book he does with Jay Hirshberg? I don't see those micro draw drills in there.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/BS_zps619f5f1a.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/BS_zps619f5f1a.jpg.html)

MVS
11-17-2014, 10:06 PM
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/BS_zps619f5f1a.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/BS_zps619f5f1a.jpg.html)

Thanks for the reply. I just ordered it. Amazon Prime and one click ordering can be great things.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 01:30 PM
I have a few draw strokes depending on carry type, target size, distance, time or needed accuracy / precision. But primarily I have a press out and a 45* to the target.

Up close in a perceived retentive situation I default to a higher draw and press out if possible. Longer distance with time on my side and good accuracy I tend to have a high draw and a press where I am touching trigger (setting my trigger finger) early but sights on target. This allows me to focus, pick up sights and I exhale on the press, so everything is set when I hit extension. Very much a mental routine as a mechanical process. This is a deliberate type of draw / presentation.

Up close, speed on paper, 45* towards target.


I think this discussion sometimes gets missed when people talk past each other. In fact, it could easily be it's whole own thread.

John Hearne
11-18-2014, 02:05 PM
Several years ago, I heard Mike Panone lecture. When discussing draw stroke, he related that he had run some "experiments" when he was training the FAMs. Shooters would be blind folded and have to solve whatever problem they confronted. When the target was placed extremely close, the shooters would automatically keep the gun back and use a spontaneous retention position. Based on these observations, Panone was advocated a more traditional 45 degree draw since the dedicated retention positions weren't necessary in his experience.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 02:10 PM
Several years ago, I heard Mike Panone lecture. When discussing draw stroke, he related that he had run some "experiments" when he was training the FAMs. Shooters would be blind folded and have to solve whatever problem they confronted. When the target was placed extremely close, the shooters would automatically keep the gun back and use a spontaneous retention position. Based on these observations, Panone was advocated a more traditional 45 degree draw since the dedicated retention positions weren't necessary in his experience.

Interesting data point. Of course there are others who promote a tight & high (for lack of a better term) draw stroke precisely because they've seen people repeatedly drive their guns out to full extension whilst in an FUT.

Lots of smart, experienced guys on either side of the argument. Like I said, could be a whole separate thread.

:cool:

Mr_White
11-18-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm working on a little video trying to show a couple of things that are under discussion here. I hope to have it up sometime tomorrow if the camera cooperated.

NickA
11-18-2014, 02:39 PM
I think this discussion sometimes gets missed when people talk past each other. In fact, it could easily be it's whole own thread.
IIRC there was a big 'ol mega thread about it, when Todd was still active.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 02:43 PM
IIRC there was a big 'ol mega thread about it, when Todd was still active.

That happens a lot.

:o

NickA
11-18-2014, 03:14 PM
That happens a lot.

:o
Was probably 30 pages, 20 of which were posts by GJM, nyeti and Todd, and the rest about straw men, breastfeeding, the yeti, and minimum wage. Ya know, typical old school PF technique thread ;-)

John Hearne
11-18-2014, 04:33 PM
Interesting data point. Of course there are others who promote a tight & high (for lack of a better term) draw stroke precisely because they've seen people repeatedly drive their guns out to full extension whilst in an FUT. ... Lots of smart, experienced guys on either side of the argument. Like I said, could be a whole separate thread.

It is an interesting problem. I suspect that more skilled and seasoned folks might be able to execute the "natural retention" much more than the new shooter. I still use and teach a four count draw stroke and emphasize picking up the sights as the gun goes out. But, I did think it was an interesting observation.

Mr_White
11-20-2014, 12:05 PM
I made a little video for this draw discussion and since I haven't been thinking as much about the draw for a while.

The attempt here is to show differences in draw path and ultimately time for what I am calling:

Classic Pressout (my attempt at executing TLG's method)

Muzzle-Level Pressout (same thing but trying to avoid the muzzle-tilt)

Direct Draw (basically bringing the gun straight from the holster to its final position, though in my case the gun comes high enough that it is pretty close to the good old 4-count draw with position 2 removed because of AIWB)

Take the times shown with a grain of salt – I only included one rep of each live fire variation, so no robust average on this. The direct draw to the upper A is a particularly good rep. Figure on that one usually taking another tenth or so. But the basic progression of times seems to hold for me. Each rep on the video is a hit to the specified target – either upper or lower A as noted in the video.


http://youtu.be/pQqgdeGhsx8

GJM
11-20-2014, 12:22 PM
Like!!

Sheep Have Wool
11-20-2014, 12:34 PM
Excellent reference, OAK.

joshs
11-20-2014, 12:58 PM
Direct Draw (basically bringing the gun straight from the holster to its final position, though in my case the gun comes high enough that it is pretty close to the good old 4-count draw with position 2 removed because of AIWB)

Thanks dude, this is definitely clearer with video. My draw looks pretty similar to this, except much slower. I just don't call it "direct" because of how high the gun comes before going forward, which I think is partly a function of AIWB.

joshs
11-20-2014, 01:04 PM
Josh, as to some video from last spring, how I shoot today may well be different than yesterday, and hopefully different than last month or last year. I see it as an ongoing process, subject to continuous revision.

GJM, sorry I missed this when it was posted. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that you were still shooting exactly the same as in the video or even if that particular video was representative of you average draw. I reference it as an example to show that the way we think and speak about technique may be different even where there is very little difference, if any, in the technique.

Mr_White
11-20-2014, 01:09 PM
Thanks dude, this is definitely clearer with video. My draw looks pretty similar to this, except much slower. I just don't call it "direct" because of how high the gun comes before going forward, which I think is partly a function of AIWB.

You are welcome and I agree about AIWB biasing the draw a bit higher. I made up the new terms for this video because I figured we didn't have enough confusing terms to define draws with yet. ;)

Clobbersaurus
11-20-2014, 11:36 PM
Great work on the video OAK, should clear up a lot of questions regarding the discussion here.

YVK
11-21-2014, 12:40 AM
Seriously, 0.7+ draw from concealment? 0.8+ on upper A, seriously?

BaiHu
11-21-2014, 12:58 AM
Seriously, 0.7+ draw from concealment? 0.8+ on upper A, seriously?
He's slowing down so we can see him better [emoji12]

Mr_White
11-21-2014, 01:04 AM
Seriously, 0.7+ draw from concealment? 0.8+ on upper A, seriously?

Yep. :D

Understand that everything on the video represents my best case potential performance under ideal conditions. Add a tenth at least when under stress in a competition. And .87 to the upper A is a better than typical example for that task. Figure another tenth or so most of the time for that.

It's within my performance range, but it's at the upper end of it.

GJM
11-21-2014, 07:46 AM
Gabe, I think your draw is an example of an over learned skill.

This reinforces a point I made in some thread about learning technical shooting skills from sport shooters. Between improvements in equipment, the web to shine a light on techniques and performance, and continuing evolution, technical shooting skills have advanced to a level far beyond the standard of the Gunsite era.

jetfire
11-21-2014, 01:22 PM
Gabe, I think your draw is an example of an over learned skill.

This reinforces a point I made in some thread about learning technical shooting skills from sport shooters. Between improvements in equipment, the web to shine a light on techniques and performance, and continuing evolution, technical shooting skills have advanced to a level far beyond the standard of the Gunsite era.

Troof. IIRC, wasn't the old Gunsite standard for an El Pres something like all As under 10 seconds?

Mr_White
11-21-2014, 01:38 PM
Troof. IIRC, wasn't the old Gunsite standard for an El Pres something like all As under 10 seconds?

I think that's true, but it also usually incites a debate about the performance levels associated with a USPSA Classifier-style El Presidente (USPSA A-zone, hit factor scoring, same height targets spaced about one yard apart, maybe 'gamer gear') vs. an El Presidente done the old school way (not totally sure what that is, but I believe it involves the targets spaced further, maybe three yards apart, maybe staggered heights, tighter scoring zones sometimes suggested, or at least time-plus scoring or if-not-clean-it's-a-fail scoring, 'legitimate street gear', etc.)

GJM
11-21-2014, 01:46 PM
Troof. IIRC, wasn't the old Gunsite standard for an El Pres something like all As under 10 seconds?

It also included timing done on Jeff Cooper's wrist watch, watching the sweep of the second hand.

JHC
11-21-2014, 03:29 PM
It also included timing done on Jeff Cooper's wrist watch, watching the sweep of the second hand.

LOL yes I'm sure! "Don't plus 2 me bro'"

NickA
11-21-2014, 03:46 PM
It also included timing done on Jeff Cooper's wrist watch, watching the sweep of the second hand.


LOL yes I'm sure! "Don't plus 2 me bro'"

To be fair you could get that from a certain USPSA RO until recently, right? [emoji6]

OAK - thanks for the video. I'll be studying the slo mo versions as I hopefully get serious about some dry practice.

jetfire
11-21-2014, 04:24 PM
I think that's true, but it also usually incites a debate about the performance levels associated with a USPSA Classifier-style El Presidente (USPSA A-zone, hit factor scoring, same height targets spaced about one yard apart, maybe 'gamer gear') vs. an El Presidente done the old school way (not totally sure what that is, but I believe it involves the targets spaced further, maybe three yards apart, maybe staggered heights, tighter scoring zones sometimes suggested, or at least time-plus scoring or if-not-clean-it's-a-fail scoring, 'legitimate street gear', etc.)

According to an actual Gunsite instructor, the OG El Pres was 10 yards, targets spaced two yards apart edge to edge, and gear was "run what yer brung" but most commonly a strongside OWB holster and mag pouches. No staggered heights on the targets, that's the IDPA version. The scoring zone on the current Gunsite target is an 8 inch circle in the chest.

Mr_White
11-21-2014, 04:35 PM
According to an actual Gunsite instructor, the OG El Pres was 10 yards, targets spaced two yards apart edge to edge, and gear was "run what yer brung" but most commonly a strongside OWB holster and mag pouches. No staggered heights on the targets, that's the IDPA version. The scoring zone on the current Gunsite target is an 8 inch circle in the chest.

Do you know (or anyone else reading this) if it was all As/clean or fail, or was there some other scoring method to the OG Gunsite version?

jetfire
11-21-2014, 04:43 PM
Do you know (or anyone else reading this) if it was all As/clean or fail, or was there some other scoring method to the OG Gunsite version?

Sorry, I was told that it was all A-zones or nothing to pass.

JHC
11-21-2014, 07:41 PM
Sorry, I was told that it was all A-zones or nothing to pass.

Yep, that's what I recall from back in the day. So when I see it demo'd by the AMU on giant steel in like sub 4 seconds I marvel at the speed but its not the old El Prez.

GJM
11-21-2014, 09:19 PM
this from a Gunsite instructor, some months back:

I first shot it at Gunsite in the 70's. We shot on school targets from open school holsters. AFAIK, there never was a "concealment" requirement. I have seen it shot at Gunsite with the correct spacing (pulling a target from between the real targets) and the regular (side by side ) spacing. Par time was 10 seconds, with a 5 point penalty for every second over ten and a 5 point bonus for every second under 10. In the old days, the targets were scored major (5-4-3) or minor (5-3-2) on the old "Option" targets according to the caliber of your pistol. 60 points were possible on paper, with your score adjusted for your time. Jeff wrote that if you could do a 45 or better on demand you were a pretty good pistol shot. It was thought of as an evaluation, not as an exercise. It is still practiced at Gunsite and shot for score in the pistol classes as part of the school drills on Friday. There are variations of the Pres, including the Vice, Demi, and Tactical.

JohnO
11-22-2014, 07:05 AM
Rob Leatham wrote this in 2009.

What is Fast?

I’ve been shooting a lot over the Holidays and am trying to figure out, “What is fast?”. I think the best way for me to describe shooting fast is as follows: When I am operating at a pace that would not allow for time to fix a potential problem that I see with a shot before I fire.

When I am shooting well, I can shoot fast with no problems. When I shoot terrible, it is not always because I shot too fast. More often than not it is because I shot poorly and the speed may not have been a factor. Let me explain.

Accuracy is a product of precision and not speed. If you can do something well faster than slower, then slowing down will not improve your precision. If your precision is hampered because you are unable to perform a given skill quickly, then going quickly will cause you to be imprecise. We do not all operate at the same speed for every skill. The thing I work on most, other than increasing my skill level, is knowing what I can and cannot do. To be precise, I want to know how to use whatever time is necessary but no more than needed, to allow me to perform the necessary procedure that will cause me to be precise enough. This is a long way of saying you must use the time you need. This does not mean go slow, since fast and slow are relative terms.

In the game of practical shooting, if you are too slow it will not matter how accurate you are. To be competitive you must operate at the upper limits of your speed potential. There is a balance that must be found of what accuracy you can muster at a certain speed. The way Comstock scoring works is to divide the points you accumulate on an event by your time (how long it took you to complete the COF). Let’s use “El Presidente” for a scoring example, and assume that we’re shooting major. The drill requires 12 shots on 3 targets with a turn, draw and reload (2-2-2 reload 2-2-2). If you shoot this drill in 10 seconds and get all points (As) possible (12 X 5 = 60) you earn a comstock factor of 6.00 (60 / 10.00). The higher the number the better. If you shoot that same drill in 5.00 seconds and every shot you fire hits the target in the C-zone (48 points ) you earn a factor of 9.60. If every shot you fire (in 5.00 seconds) just barely hits the target (in the D-zone) you would have 24 points and still score a 4.80!

There is an old adage that you can’t miss fast enough to win, but depending on the course of fire, at any given match, that is not really true. I can shoot that same El Pres in about 4.5-5.0 seconds regularly. I will score somewhere between 50 and 60 points when doing so. That means I am likely to score a factor of 11.00 or above. Were I to slow down and shoot it clean with 60 points, I have to do it in 5.45 seconds to get that 11 factor. It is unlikely when shooting that fast that I will shoot clean, but barring a disaster, I can always shoot it in 5 seconds. Therefore it is always better for me to go for speed on this drill than perfect accuracy. Not all drills are like this, but the same factoring still applies. Some events/stages have such high factors that misses are preferable to slow times! I don’t like that at all, but it is a fact of life.

So the trick is learning to operate at the upper levels of your speed capabilities, but not so far that accuracy is affected negatively enough to cause you to score poorly. Here is the challenge: “What is too fast?”. I think it is when you are shooting at a speed that causes error to happen. Not when you can’t catch the problem, but when you cause the problem. This then is merely a lack of skill and is simple to identify although not easy to correct. Most of my practice is trying to learn to do something I am not sure I am capable of, and some of my practice is spent operating at a pace I can repeat easily to give me confidence. I spend more time on the former than the latter, but realize I am more apt to shoot a score in a match that is on the lower side of my skill range than the higher.

In summary, shooting fast is when you find the balance between speed and accuracy – where you shoot to the highest level of your ability, with expected results. ~Rob

Little Creek
11-22-2014, 07:46 AM
This is what I strive to do, Get the jacket out of the way, get a good grip on the pistol in a level 2 OWB holster, move it straight to the target, get a flash sight picture, the gun fires twice, resulting in two hits in an 8" circle or 6" x 6" square at 7 yards in less than 2 seconds. That is my goal, as I mostly concealed carry at this point in my life.

Clobbersaurus
11-22-2014, 12:38 PM
Rob Leatham wrote this in 2009.

What is Fast?

I’ve been shooting a lot over the Holidays and am trying to figure out, “What is fast?”. I think the best way for me to describe shooting fast is as follows: When I am operating at a pace that would not allow for time to fix a potential problem that I see with a shot before I fire.

When I am shooting well, I can shoot fast with no problems. When I shoot terrible, it is not always because I shot too fast. More often than not it is because I shot poorly and the speed may not have been a factor. Let me explain.

Accuracy is a product of precision and not speed. If you can do something well faster than slower, then slowing down will not improve your precision. If your precision is hampered because you are unable to perform a given skill quickly, then going quickly will cause you to be imprecise. We do not all operate at the same speed for every skill. The thing I work on most, other than increasing my skill level, is knowing what I can and cannot do. To be precise, I want to know how to use whatever time is necessary but no more than needed, to allow me to perform the necessary procedure that will cause me to be precise enough. This is a long way of saying you must use the time you need. This does not mean go slow, since fast and slow are relative terms.

In the game of practical shooting, if you are too slow it will not matter how accurate you are. To be competitive you must operate at the upper limits of your speed potential. There is a balance that must be found of what accuracy you can muster at a certain speed. The way Comstock scoring works is to divide the points you accumulate on an event by your time (how long it took you to complete the COF). Let’s use “El Presidente” for a scoring example, and assume that we’re shooting major. The drill requires 12 shots on 3 targets with a turn, draw and reload (2-2-2 reload 2-2-2). If you shoot this drill in 10 seconds and get all points (As) possible (12 X 5 = 60) you earn a comstock factor of 6.00 (60 / 10.00). The higher the number the better. If you shoot that same drill in 5.00 seconds and every shot you fire hits the target in the C-zone (48 points ) you earn a factor of 9.60. If every shot you fire (in 5.00 seconds) just barely hits the target (in the D-zone) you would have 24 points and still score a 4.80!

There is an old adage that you can’t miss fast enough to win, but depending on the course of fire, at any given match, that is not really true. I can shoot that same El Pres in about 4.5-5.0 seconds regularly. I will score somewhere between 50 and 60 points when doing so. That means I am likely to score a factor of 11.00 or above. Were I to slow down and shoot it clean with 60 points, I have to do it in 5.45 seconds to get that 11 factor. It is unlikely when shooting that fast that I will shoot clean, but barring a disaster, I can always shoot it in 5 seconds. Therefore it is always better for me to go for speed on this drill than perfect accuracy. Not all drills are like this, but the same factoring still applies. Some events/stages have such high factors that misses are preferable to slow times! I don’t like that at all, but it is a fact of life.

So the trick is learning to operate at the upper levels of your speed capabilities, but not so far that accuracy is affected negatively enough to cause you to score poorly. Here is the challenge: “What is too fast?”. I think it is when you are shooting at a speed that causes error to happen. Not when you can’t catch the problem, but when you cause the problem. This then is merely a lack of skill and is simple to identify although not easy to correct. Most of my practice is trying to learn to do something I am not sure I am capable of, and some of my practice is spent operating at a pace I can repeat easily to give me confidence. I spend more time on the former than the latter, but realize I am more apt to shoot a score in a match that is on the lower side of my skill range than the higher.

In summary, shooting fast is when you find the balance between speed and accuracy – where you shoot to the highest level of your ability, with expected results. ~Rob

That was really well written, with lots of good nuggets to chew on.

GJM
11-22-2014, 01:00 PM
That was really well written, with lots of good nuggets to chew on.

should be a "sticky!"

Surf
11-23-2014, 07:00 PM
Classic Pressout (my attempt at executing TLG's method)

Muzzle-Level Pressout (same thing but trying to avoid the muzzle-tilt)

Direct Draw (basically bringing the gun straight from the holster to its final position, though in my case the gun comes high enough that it is pretty close to the good old 4-count draw with position 2 removed because of AIWB)I will first say that I have been impressed with your concealed draw speed for quite some time and would love to be that fast. For Appendix, which is my fastest concealed carry type, given your distance and accuracy standard in your video, to get consistent hits I am lucky to be in high .9's on a good day with reps. Cold and if I can bust a low 1.10-1.15 with consistency I am happy.


You are welcome and I agree about AIWB biasing the draw a bit higher. I made up the new terms for this video because I figured we didn't have enough confusing terms to define draws with yet. ;)With my body type and 3 shoulder surgeries between both shoulders, I do not get as high of a draw, or press than you do. Just doesn't happen. I generally say I have different draw types which is indeed carry dependent. As you mention, I am forced to draw different with appendix as opposed to hip as it is just the nature of the set up as appendix forces a higher draw. When I do an appendix and a "Direct draw" my appendix looks more like your direct draw. But my direct draw from the hip, is not nearly as high and looks more 45*ish in line to the target. So maybe this confuses people when I say I have different draw types.

The primary difference I note in my draw stroke is that indeed I change speed on the press and muzzle orientation changes with it depending on what I am facing as far as target size, distance, accuracy / precision requirement. Up close, pure speed on A zone and I will rocket the weapon out with a flatter muzzle throughout and like in your video, I am often breaking the shot before full extension and I have no account of how I am breathing. Further away, the weapon presentation is much more deliberate. the weapon goes more muzzle up at the "3 position" and levels out on the press and sights settle at full extension. I am also aware of a deliberate breath going out as weapon presses out. So more classic TLG press when I am going slower.

I know some preach about having one draw stroke no matter what and I have tried it extensively, but I still find myself gaining better results with these methods. I did break down some video in segmented stills to attempt to analyze and maybe try some different things.

These were not staged, just footage that I had of appendix doing the IDPA classifier. This first clip is at the 20 yards, A zone. Not very far away or overly small hit zone, but I do indeed note that I do the more deliberate type of draw. From what I recall, I think I am in the 1.40-1.45 range to first shot as I am leaning out. I am in no big rush in this video and the draw type reflects that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvhnPqIUjI8&index=2&list=UU8bjVDAY7W8zEV-LV7cUcyg

This is from the closer barrel on the IDPA qualifier. Even though I am taking a knee, this draw is just faster as I am closer and the muzzle does not point up as much. I do intentionally keep the muzzle flatter up close on a quicker draw as I generally know that I can generally get away with breaking a shot just prior to full extension, or as soon as the weapon hits extension.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J13Y1fJi784&list=UU8bjVDAY7W8zEV-LV7cUcyg&index=1

Again I have tried a consistent draw stroke in the past with mixed results. I am thinking that I am going to attempt to rocket the weapon out with a flatter muzzle no matter distance and see what happens? Gotta try it.

Also curious to know what your draw might look like from the hip, doing a "Direct Draw"?

Surf
11-23-2014, 07:24 PM
Rob Leatham wrote this in 2009.

What is Fast?

I’ve been shooting a lot over the Holidays and am trying to figure out, “What is fast?”. I think the best way for me to describe shooting fast is as follows: When I am operating at a pace that would not allow for time to fix a potential problem that I see with a shot before I fire.
As I often acknowledge, I am not a competition shooter, but doesn't pretty much everyone in competition do what Rob is talking about? Meaning that you do a mental evaluation of the course of fire in relationship to how fast you believe you can run the course in order to maintain the acceptable hit scoring to get what you think is your best overall time?

A few years ago, I was asked by a training staff to give my "opinion" and feedback on a 3 gun course of fire that they were going to use as a type of "top gun" challenge. IDPA targets used with a simple raw time plus a simple set time penalty multiplied by the total minus score and 10 seconds for misses outside of scoring zones. No extra hits on target allowed. I looked over the course and asked them, do you want me to run it with all A's, or do you want best overall score possible? In other words, get great hits or "game it"? Since they were unsure of the penalty times, they asked me to "game it". Knowing their time penalty parameters, I absolutely blistered through the course. I had all hits but had some -3 zones and I still smoked the next closest person to run it as they were trying to maintain -0's and no less than -1's. I personally find the -3 zones to be unacceptable for my working applications, but in this "gaming" instance, it was what was an allowable option to get a win and I exploited that when I feel it was acceptable. So they did a tweaking of the times for penalties to encourage better acceptable accuracy with the balance of time or speed. The point being is that I could quickly enough compute what I thought was the best pace to run the course given speed vs accuracy of what they were asking for in relation to my own abilities or capabilities.