PDA

View Full Version : Establishing Handgun Time Constraints



ST911
12-23-2012, 02:59 PM
Firearms skill assessments and qualification courses of fire include a fixed period of time, par time, in which the stage or skill must be executed. In developing those times, is there a common agreement on the amount that is valid, reasonable, or ideal for each sub-skill associated? I.e. if a drill includes a certain skill, a certain amount of time is necessary.

In reviewing numerous courses of fire designed to test basic minimal law enforcement competencies, trends in timing emerge. They are most commonly:


A presentation from a ready position: +1 second
A presentation from a secured duty holster: +1-1.5 seconds
A presentation from concealment: +1-1.5 seconds
A slide-lock reload: +2 seconds
A tactical reload: +3-5 seconds
Each round fired 0-10yds: +1-1.5 seconds
Each round fired 11-25yds: +3-5 seconds
A change to the shooting position: +2-3 seconds
Any of the above from support side: Above, +1-3 seconds


Qualification and testing is not a gunfight, but a minimum standard of competency must be assessed. The standard has to be realistic both in achievement and result though, as well as defensible.

Are these numbers reasonable? In that approximate range, do they constitute a de facto standard for course design?

MikeyC
12-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Judging by the participation in a recent security class, it's about all you're going to get. The max range was 15 yds on the ICE CoF, and we still had 4 out of 11 students not complete the course. 2 were ejected for safety violations, and 2 couldn't meet the time or accuracy requirements.
It was an interesting situation to me because I've been to enough KSTG matches to know how good I'm not, however, as the only "gun guy" in the class I could easily score in the top portion of the class. I think the requirements you pointed out are about the most you're going to get out of non-dedicated shooters required to carry a gun. The problem isn't necessarily the time requirements as it is the lack of commitment you;re getting from the candidates that you're putting through the system.

CCT125US
12-23-2012, 05:02 PM
You would also need to include size of target along with distance for each stage / requirement. Big time difference between COM verse 2" circle.

ST911
12-23-2012, 05:57 PM
You would also need to include size of target along with distance for each stage / requirement. Big time difference between COM verse 2" circle.

Target size is secondary to the discussion, but certainly, tighter targets need more time. For purposes of this discussion though, consider only larger LE humanoid targets such as those on B21s, Qs, TQ 15s and 19s, etc.

GJM
12-23-2012, 06:57 PM
Rogers school par time to an eight inch circle at 7 yards from extended ready is .5 second. If I never had a slide lock reload slower than 2.0, I would be pleased.

JHC
12-23-2012, 07:25 PM
Rogers school par time to an eight inch circle at 7 yards from extended ready is .5 second. If I never had a slide lock reload slower than 2.0, I would be pleased.

To GJM's point about the 2.0 slide lock reload - if that is measured like we do on a timer from aimed shot to aimed A zone hit 2nd shot - I think 2 seconds from duty mag carriers sounds a little aggressive as an agency standard. But I've got no agency experience so take that with a lot of salt. Most of the duty rig shooting I've been around has been a lot of shooting with a fellow in his LE duty gear and then with the duty gear prescribed by the contracts he works supporting a Federal contract OCONUS and that gear includes magazine carriers secured with a velcro strap. This colors my thinking about the 2 second slide lock reload shot to shot.

How many level retention on the holster?

John Hearne
12-23-2012, 07:50 PM
Those times are a bit hopeful. I know of no uniform LE agency that expects a 1-1.5 second draw. Very few COF even have just one shot. The FAM COF has single shots and they're 1.65 seconds.

Our COF, which is on the harder side of non-SWAT LE courses, is as follows:
3 yds - draw and fire 3 rds in 3 sec.
7 yds - draw and fire 2 rds in 3 sec.
7 yds - support hand only, weapon already in hand, 2 rds in 3 sec.
15 yds - draw, move to low cover, fire 3 rds in 6 sec.
15 yds - aimed in, from low cover, 3 rds in 4 sec.
25 yds - draw, move to strong side barricade , fire 3 rds in 8 sec.
25 yds - from ready on support side of barricade, 2 rds in 5 sec.
25 yds - from strong side low cover, 1 rd in 3 sec.

Target is FLETC Transtar - 4 or 5 ring scored as a hit, 21/30 to pass.

JV_
12-23-2012, 07:54 PM
The FAM COF has single shots and they're 1.65 seconds.Didn't they get rid of this requirement?
It was from concealment - right?

John Hearne
12-23-2012, 08:17 PM
Didn't they get rid of this requirement?
It was from concealment - right?

They got rid of the old course as their qualification standard and now require a higher score on the standard FLETC course. They still shoot it as an "advanced" course.

ST911
12-23-2012, 08:47 PM
Those times are a bit hopeful. I know of no uniform LE agency that expects a 1-1.5 second draw. Very few COF even have just one shot. The FAM COF has single shots and they're 1.65 seconds.

Thanks for jumping in, John. Let me clarify a bit...

The presentation time is just the time factor for the starting position. 1-1.5 sec to be ready to go to the next skill execution (discharge of shot) from the specified position. Trying to calculate what is a norm for minimums to accomplish each step in the process.

In the COF you post John, it might break down like this...

3 yds - draw and fire 3 rds in 3 sec. <-- ~1-1.5 presentation, 1 round to fire, 2-2.5 sec total. About what you factor.

The balance of your course isn't too far off. (I like that COF, BTW.)

All this to answer the question(s)... How are we arriving at the times we assign to certain stages? Are those times valid?

On the FAM TPC, the 1.65 / 3.30 standard is attainable, but tighter than most are capable of at the levels they prefer to train at.

I hope that makes a little more sense. I appreciate the dialogue and thoughts of all.

John Hearne
12-23-2012, 10:17 PM
Random Thoughts:

I'm away from home right now, but there was an article in SWAT that looked shooting standards using a mathematical formula to keep time/distance/accuracy standards the same. IIRC, he had a ratio of MOA to time or something like that.

I attended Mike Panone's lecture about training standards. One comment he made was that the your qual course is the minimal acceptable standard for shooting. Sounds simple until you realize that if your people are meeting the standard, you have to leave them alone and can't ask for anything else.

I think you need to ask yourself what the purpose of the qual is. 90% of the time, a qual course is just an indemnification for an agency. They don't care whether their people are trained to a realistic standard. They just want a course to keep the lawyers off of them whether its relevant or not.

When it comes to performance under stress, psychologist like to use the term "overlearned" skills. The problem is that the standard for most qual course is competency at a mere "learned" level. Ideally, a qual course should require a level of performance indicative of some overlearning.

I had my people shoot the course below at one of our annual refreshers after working with them for about 8 hours. Most could pass it, even though it is harder than what they were used to. A lot of it is just saying "this is the standard" and holding them to it.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/Gun%20Stuff/AdvPistolCourse.jpg

Regarding draw time, I've worked with a lot of our people, many just out of the academy. It is uncommon to see anybody getting the gun out in anything near 1.5. Most of them take 2 seconds and just rush the rest of the shots. Of course, IIRC the FLETC standard course is one round at 7 yards in 3 seconds - the idea that you can go faster is just foreign to them.

John Hearne
12-23-2012, 11:24 PM
Corrected version of our qual course:
3 yds - draw and fire 3 rds in 3 sec. (x2)
7 yds - draw and fire 2 rds in 3 sec. (x2)
7 yds - support hand only, weapon already in hand, 2 rds in 3 sec. (x2)
7 yds - draw, fire 2 rds, tac reload, 2 rds in 12 sec. (x1)
15 yds - draw, move to low cover, fire 3 rds in 6 sec. (x1)
15 yds - aimed in, from low cover, 3 rds in 4 sec. (x1)
25 yds - draw, move to strong side barricade , fire 3 rds in 8 sec. (x1)
25 yds - from ready on support side of barricade, 2 rds in 5 sec. (x1)
25 yds - from strong side low cover, 1 rd in 3 sec.(x1)

Target is FLETC Transtar - 4 or 5 ring scored as a hit, 21/30 to pass.

167
12-27-2012, 02:57 PM
This is what everyone who carries a gun in an official capacity has to shoot in Arkansas. Target is a B27 with scores doubled. For example, everything inside the 8 ring is worth 10 points instead of 5.

Handgun Speed & Accuracy COF

Distance Commands Rounds Time
25yd From Holster 2rds 6 sec
25yd From Ready 2rds 5 sec
25yd From Ready 2rds 5 sec

LOAD ADDITIONAL 5 ROUNDS

Distance Commands Rounds Time
15yd From Holster 3rds 5 sec
15yd From Ready 3rds 4 sec
15yd From Holster 2rds 4 sec
15yd From Ready 1rd 2 sec
15yd From Holster 2rds 4 sec
15yd From Ready 1rd 2 sec

Distance Commands Rounds Time
7yd From Holster 5rds 15 sec (R)
7yd From Holster 3rds 4 sec
7yd From Ready 3rds 3 sec
7yd From Ready 3rds 3 sec

Distance Commands Rounds Time
3yd From Holster 6rds 12 sec (R)
3yd WHO From Holster 2rds 3 sec
3yd WHO From Ready 2rds 2 sec
3yd WHO From Ready 2rds 2 sec
3yd SHO From Holster 2rds 3 sec
3yd SHO From Ready 2rds 2 sec
3yd SHO From Ready 2rds 2 sec

Scoring: Maximum score 500, minimum score 400 (80%).

Percentage Calculation: (Actual Score/500) x 100 = Percentage
Example: Actual Score = 491
491/500 = 0.982
0.982 x 100 = 98.2

Based on the few guys that I know of who have to shoot it on a regular basis, it is frequently passed but rarely maxed. I have shot it before, it isn't hard to max, I am not that good compared to some guys on here.

My personal opinion (which is worth zero) is that qualifications should be like tests, and should motivate people to "study". With that in mind, I think they should be difficult. Certainly more difficult than they usually are.

167
12-27-2012, 03:17 PM
***double post***