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JodyH
04-03-2011, 08:12 AM
I cannot tell you how relieved I was to go look at the rules and see that this doesn't actually involve drawing from the pocket. :o
Why is that?
If a proper holster is utilized, pocket draws are as safe as any other draw.
I've seen more fumbled draws and dropped guns from race holsters in IPSC matches than I have unsafe/fumbled draws from pocket carry in our local CCW matches in which we allow pocket carry (with MD/RO approval).

Tamara
04-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Why is that?

Because it seems a whole lot easier to point a gun at your thigh while fishing it out of a trouser pocket.

I mean, theoretically, a horizontal shoulder rig is no more dangerous than any other holster, right? So why aren't those allowed at matches?

JodyH
04-03-2011, 12:51 PM
Because it seems a whole lot easier to point a gun at your thigh while fishing it out of a trouser pocket.

I mean, theoretically, a horizontal shoulder rig is no more dangerous than any other holster, right? So why aren't those allowed at matches?
How many pocket holsters do you own?
How familiar with pocket carry and draw techniques and safety are you personally?
I think the majority of your fears are based on ignorance (that's not a personal attack on you).
I run into a lot of competition shooters who think any form of concealed carry "looks" dangerous.
I see a lot of people who don't compete who think race holsters "look" dangerous.
To the average person who just owns a "house gun", the act of drawing a pistol and "running around" with it looks dangerous. But we as competitors do it all the time.
The fears are based on unfamiliarity and ignorance of techniques and safety protocols.

Any holster that's in front of the hip has the potential for pointing the gun at your thigh, crotch and/or femoral artery.
That includes "race holsters", appendix carry holsters (esp. IWB) and pocket holsters.
This is a big concern on stages where you start seated in a chair.
That's why a good holster, muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline are so important.

Behind the hip carry has the potential for 180 violations, especially with forward canted holsters.
As a RO I have to remind a lot of shooters to watch their muzzle when holstering up "hip side".

"Dropped and offset" hip holsters point the muzzle directly at your lower thigh and knee.

When I RO a pocket carrier I watch for the same things I do when I RO any other competitor.
Muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline.
Possible safety issues with the holster, clothing, accessories.
Violations are corrected or the competitor is disqualified depending on the nature of the violation/problem.

As to your second point, there is no way to avoid 180 violations and weak arm sweeping with a horizontal holster rig, that's why they aren't allowed.
If the shooter is facing downrange there is no way to draw the pistol without violating 180.
The only way to avoid muzzle sweeping the weak arm is to raise it over your head like you're washing your armpit.
It would be impractical to allow special dispensation to shoulder holster carriers to allow for a safe draw on every stage.

Wheeler
04-03-2011, 05:04 PM
How many pocket holsters do you own?
How familiar with pocket carry and draw techniques and safety are you personally?
I think the majority of your fears are based on ignorance (that's not a personal attack on you).
I run into a lot of competition shooters who think any form of concealed carry "looks" dangerous.
I see a lot of people who don't compete who think race holsters "look" dangerous.
To the average person who just owns a "house gun", the act of drawing a pistol and "running around" with it looks dangerous. But we as competitors do it all the time.
The fears are based on unfamiliarity and ignorance of techniques and safety protocols.

Any holster that's in front of the hip has the potential for pointing the gun at your thigh, crotch and/or femoral artery.
That includes "race holsters", appendix carry holsters (esp. IWB) and pocket holsters.
This is a big concern on stages where you start seated in a chair.
That's why a good holster, muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline are so important.

Behind the hip carry has the potential for 180 violations, especially with forward canted holsters.
As a RO I have to remind a lot of shooters to watch their muzzle when holstering up "hip side".

"Dropped and offset" hip holsters point the muzzle directly at your lower thigh and knee.

When I RO a pocket carrier I watch for the same things I do when I RO any other competitor.
Muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline.
Possible safety issues with the holster, clothing, accessories.
Violations are corrected or the competitor is disqualified depending on the nature of the violation/problem.

As to your second point, there is no way to avoid 180 violations and weak arm sweeping with a horizontal holster rig, that's why they aren't allowed.
If the shooter is facing downrange there is no way to draw the pistol without violating 180.
The only way to avoid muzzle sweeping the weak arm is to raise it over your head like you're washing your armpit.
It would be impractical to allow special dispensation to shoulder holster carriers to allow for a safe draw on every stage.

Dang, I was going to reply to Tamara's question but JodyH nailed it all in one post. About the only thing I can add is that not only is it a safety concern, it's a liability concern for whatever range happens to be hosting the match/class. Even if shooters sign a disclaimer, that doesn't mean they can't file a lawsuit, and that can get expensive, even if the shooter is completely in the wrong.

Wheeler

ToddG
04-04-2011, 10:56 AM
The real issue is that if you're developing a game that is intended to grow beyond some local buddies and other known entities, you have to build some "lowest common denominator" into your rules. Pocket carry is safe for responsible people who know what they're doing. So is walking around everywhere with a loaded gun. But there is reason why games like USPSA and IDPA run cold ranges. It's not because of the Tamaras and JodyHs of the world. It's because of the idiot you see at the range who can't bother to remember what "down range" means.

jetfire
04-04-2011, 11:26 AM
Word. I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't shoot USPSA matches if they ran them on hot ranges.

jar
04-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Word. I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't shoot USPSA matches if they ran them on hot ranges.

Are people being allowed to get away with major safety violations without getting DQ'd?

Caswell Ranch
04-04-2011, 02:19 PM
The real issue is that if you're developing a game that is intended to grow beyond some local buddies and other known entities, you have to build some "lowest common denominator" into your rules. Pocket carry is safe for responsible people who know what they're doing. So is walking around everywhere with a loaded gun. But there is reason why games like USPSA and IDPA run cold ranges. It's not because of the Tamaras and JodyHs of the world. It's because of the idiot you see at the range who can't bother to remember what "down range" means.

Thanks Todd, With skill levels all over the map the only safe way to hold a match is from a stong side holster in my view, many people may carry in a pocket but many do not practice the draw from it, if in the pocket were is the muzzle and trigger finger, safety, safety, safety.

JodyH
04-04-2011, 04:57 PM
Not that I'm aware of, but the concept of a hot range with 100 people running around at a USPSA match makes me nervous. I don't mind a hot range in a 10 person class, that's a different dynamic than a match.
It's a fact that the majority of AD's happen while loading or unloading a gun.
I worry more about 100 unknown people constantly loading and unloading all day long.
Add in the fact that the majority of "accidents" happen with "unloaded" firearms and the lax attitudes an "unloaded" gun encourage and I wouldn't be opposed to running a hot range.
Rule #1 of a hot range, you touch your gun away from the designated firing line and you're PERMANENTLY banned.
No appeal, no second chance, GONE.

jar
04-05-2011, 02:14 PM
It's a fact that the majority of AD's happen while loading or unloading a gun.
I worry more about 100 unknown people constantly loading and unloading all day long.
Add in the fact that the majority of "accidents" happen with "unloaded" firearms and the lax attitudes an "unloaded" gun encourage and I wouldn't be opposed to running a hot range.
Rule #1 of a hot range, you touch your gun away from the designated firing line and you're PERMANENTLY banned.
No appeal, no second chance, GONE.

Except the loading and unloading happens one at a time under direct RO supervision.

Early in my competition career, I was one of those 'the real world is a hot range' guys. Now that I'm an SO/RO and occasional MD, I'm fine with cold ranges. Maybe it's worth splitting this discussion to it's own thread?

ToddG
04-05-2011, 04:11 PM
It's a fact that the majority of AD's happen while loading or unloading a gun.

I agree with this.


I worry more about 100 unknown people constantly loading and unloading all day long.

I would as well were they doing it independently without supervision. But at matches, they're doing it with someone literally on top of them controlling muzzle direction, etc. An accident that occurs while loading/unloading while facing the berm isn't fractionally as bad as one that occurs behind the firing line facing God-knows-where.


Add in the fact that the majority of "accidents" happen with "unloaded" firearms and the lax attitudes an "unloaded" gun encourage and I wouldn't be opposed to running a hot range.

As you know, I always run hot ranges in class. But I've got a lot more immediate control over the dozen people on my range than a MD has over the 100+ people who may be at a match. Paying $400+ for a class also self-selects a more experienced and safe population than paying $20 for a match.

I love the idea of a hot range for competition in concept, but in practice there are too many potential pitfalls when it comes to the folks who walk off the bay and find themselves dealing simultaneously with a loaded gun and a toilet for the first time in their lives, etc. Not everyone who shows up to a match is there because he's a hardened, trained gunfighter.

jar
04-05-2011, 05:14 PM
Agree 100% with Todd's point about classes being more self selecting. If I went to a defensive pistol class not targeted at beginners that wasn't a hot range, I'd feel mildly insulted. When I went to Front Sight, they ran the range cold for the first two days and hot for the second two. I thought this was eminently reasonable.

I think the safety rules for matches work well and I don't see any compelling reason to change them. The only GSW accidents I've ever heard about at matches are from holstering with the finger or some foreign object in the trigger guard. There's no real way to completely prevent those short of prohibiting hot guns in holsters which would be ridiculous. IMO the current USPSA rules go as safe as it is possible to go without affecting the actual stages.

To anyone who suggests hot ranges at matches, my first question is are you an SO/RO?

JodyH
04-05-2011, 08:46 PM
To anyone who suggests hot ranges at matches, my first question is are you an SO/RO?
I RO twice a month 10 months out of the year, IPSC, IDPA and CCW matches.
I'm also the VP of our local action pistol club which hosts all the matches, which makes me the MD when the Pres. is unable to attend the match.

JodyH
04-05-2011, 08:53 PM
While I don't go around championing a hot range for matches, it wouldn't bother me at all running a hot range once a clear set of rules and protocols are established.

jetfire
04-06-2011, 01:25 PM
Issues with hot ranges for matches that I can see right away:


There are lots of people who shoot matches that don't carry - I don't really want those people wandering around with a loaded gun
Safe areas - how do you make sure a shooter is unloaded before entering the safe area?
Creates even more administrative gun handling - at the end of a stage if I'm at slidelock anyway, you're going to make me gas up my gun?


I think that having everyone unload and show clear in front of an SO is really the only logistically feasible way to run a match; to have people run around with hot guns creates either too many variables or a dictatorial match environment that would frankly suck to compete at.

jar
04-06-2011, 04:09 PM
While I don't go around championing a hot range for matches, it wouldn't bother me at all running a hot range once a clear set of rules and protocols are established.

What would you set the rules/protocols as? Handling a gun any place/time you're not supposed to obviously needs a heavy penalty. At least a match DQ and probably more. How would you handle people who need/want to fiddle with their guns? What would the rule be for handling a dropped gun outside a CoF?

Do shooters get to check the condition of their gun before beginning a stage? When we tried a hot range at an IDPA club for a small invitation only match, it didn't save any time because everyone wanted to press check and double check their mag before a stage anyway.

(I'm not asking these questions to attack you in the slightest. Just because I don't think hot range matches are a great idea doesn't mean I can't participate in a discussion of how best to do it.)

JodyH
04-06-2011, 04:44 PM
What would you set the rules/protocols as? Handling a gun any place/time you're not supposed to obviously needs a heavy penalty. At least a match DQ and probably more. How would you handle people who need/want to fiddle with their guns? What would the rule be for handling a dropped gun outside a CoF?

You "fiddle" with your gun at the safety table, same as on a cold range. Our safety table has it's own backstop.
Our club doesn't tolerate handling guns on the range whether they are hot or cold. It's an immediate DQ if you are seen handling (much less dropping) a gun anywhere but in a stage or at the safety table.

Do shooters get to check the condition of their gun before beginning a stage? When we tried a hot range at an IDPA club for a small invitation only match, it didn't save any time because everyone wanted to press check and double check their mag before a stage anyway.

Too bad. "Run what ya brung". You should have done a tactical reload at the end of the last stage.

(I'm not asking these questions to attack you in the slightest. Just because I don't think hot range matches are a great idea doesn't mean I can't participate in a discussion of how best to do it.)
answers in red above
Initial load up is under the direction of the RO just like a cold range.
Before holstering up after a stage the shooter does a tactical reload as their final act.
Final unload and clear is at the end of the last stage under RO supervision.

jetfire
04-06-2011, 04:56 PM
So what happens if I decide I want to lubricate my gun in between stages? Do I need to find an SO to unload me and hold up the match? Or do I not do a tac-load at the end of the stage, which means I need to load up at the start of the next stage, thus holding up the match? What about stages that require downloaded or unloaded starts?

None of the above scenarios are uncommon or weird, it's all stuff that happens in regular club matches. It's also stuff that makes running a hot range basically unfeasible.

JodyH
04-06-2011, 05:29 PM
So what happens if I decide I want to lubricate my gun in between stages? Do I need to find an SO to unload me and hold up the match? Or do I not do a tac-load at the end of the stage, which means I need to load up at the start of the next stage, thus holding up the match? What about stages that require downloaded or unloaded starts?

None of the above scenarios are uncommon or weird, it's all stuff that happens in regular club matches. It's also stuff that makes running a hot range basically unfeasible.
You can't win the "what if" game no matter the argument or what side you're on.
Hot and cold ranges both have their positives and negatives.

jetfire
04-06-2011, 07:18 PM
Those aren't "what ifs" though, those are things that happen at every single club level match I've ever been to; if a hot range doesn't have an answer for that than it's not an option.

I like hot ranges in most cases, but I don't like them for matches. I think it creates too much of an administrative kludge for people to deal with and the issues far outweigh the benefits.

Wheeler
04-06-2011, 09:23 PM
I think it boils down to a difference in mindset.

Most matches are comprised of a good percentage of people who want to remove any mental doubt regarding their equipment, for competitive purposes. This involves what I refer to as 'comfort manipulation'. Press checking, racking the slide several times before loading, checking the safety, multiple intentional false starts of the draw stroke, just to name a few. While I don't think these folks are typically unsafe, these types of actions, usually a portion of their mental preparation lead to accidents through negligence.

Students at a class or training seminar have a different set of goals. They are reviewing learned skill sets or attempting to integrate new skills. Usually it's centered around defensive or tactical applications of the firearm, which means that part of the mindset the instructor has included means having your gun ready to go when you step up to the line.

Running a hot range for matches means having a relatively large number of SO/RO personnel to handle shooters that need to go to the safe area, watch for negligent handling, etc. It's doable in a match situation, but not a task that I would want to take on.

One scenario that I've seen that worked out rather well was upon entering the bay, the SO would read the CoF, allow adjustments for round counts, and then load everyone hot. No one was to leave the bay. Upon each shooter's completion of the CoF, they were unloaded, showed clear, and were free to leave the bay if they wanted. This sped up the process of each stage, and allowed the squad to move along faster. There were no novice shooters on these squads, which would be another accident waiting to happen.

Wheeler

jar
04-06-2011, 10:33 PM
You "fiddle" with your gun at the safety table, same as on a cold range. Our safety table has it's own backstop.
Our club doesn't tolerate handling guns on the range whether they are hot or cold. It's an immediate DQ if you are seen handling (much less dropping) a gun anywhere but in a stage or at the safety table.
Initial load up is under the direction of the RO just like a cold range.
Before holstering up after a stage the shooter does a tactical reload as their final act.
Final unload and clear is at the end of the last stage under RO supervision.

Can a shooter handle a loaded gun at the safety table? If not, how/where do they unload?

The standard IDPA/USPSA safety rules also have an immediate DQ for gun handling away from an RO or safe table. The dropped gun rules come into play if a gun gets knocked out of a holster. This is more common at USPSA matches where race holsters are used. The rule is that you have to summon an RO to pick your gun up because otherwise you'd be handling a gun unsupervised away from a safe table.

ToddG
04-06-2011, 10:46 PM
Initial load up is under the direction of the RO just like a cold range.
Before holstering up after a stage the shooter does a tactical reload as their final act.
Final unload and clear is at the end of the last stage under RO supervision.

FWIW, in the late 90's this is precisely how I ran the IDPA matches at NRA HQ.

rsa-otc
04-07-2011, 06:28 AM
Initial load up is under the direction of the RO just like a cold range.
Before holstering up after a stage the shooter does a tactical reload as their final act.
Final unload and clear is at the end of the last stage under RO supervision.

This is exactly how I run my training classes and I run up to 7 guys on the line at any one time. But of course this is in an environment that I have total control and I KNOW all the shooters.

At IDPA matches I have seen some really green inexperienced shooters and seen some really BOZO behavior.

JodyH
04-07-2011, 12:29 PM
I see a lot of references to "Bozo" behavior.
As a RO or MD, why are you not aggressively addressing this behavior?
Our club tutors new shooters and our regular shooters are pretty squared away and self policing.
If you don't think someone is capable of safe hot gunhandling away from the firing line, why in the heck would you put them under the stress of a match?

rsa-otc
04-07-2011, 12:42 PM
I see a lot of references to "Bozo" behavior.
As a RO or MD, why are you not aggressively addressing this behavior?
Our club tutors new shooters and our regular shooters are pretty squared away and self policing.
If you don't think someone is capable of safe hot gunhandling away from the firing line, why in the heck would you put them under the stress of a match?

Jody;

It's not that they are not being admonished or tutored, it's that they are inexperienced newbies and some boneheads. You don't know if they are boneheads or Bozo's until they screw up. They are an unknown. Most match directors and RSO's are concentrating on the shooters actively handling their guns within the parameters of the match and it only takes a milliseconds for that unknown new shooter to do allot of damage and ruin everyones day. RSO's and MD's can't be everywhere at once. Thus the cold range rules.

JodyH
04-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Thus the cold range rules.
I'll venture to guess more rounds have been fired off by someone "going cold" in the parking lot of a cold range than have ever been fired off accidentally on a hot range.

I'll also venture to guess that more rounds have been popped on ejection (primer hits ejector) after a stage than have been touched off accidentally on a hot range.

You can't fix stupid.
I'm not convinced that cold ranges mitigate stupid.

rsa-otc
04-07-2011, 06:42 PM
You can't fix stupid.

Ain't that the truth. I can't speak for your area but in mine (NJ & PA) everyone arrives at the range cold in NJ and most in PA. Rules at the PA club are if you CCW the RSO's will bring you to the line to unload under supervision and at the end of the match they will bring you forward to go hot for CCW carry. NO ONE unloads or loads in the parking lot or else where on the range even in the "SAFE AREA".

Permanently baring a competitor after they have popped a round off in a totally inappropriate Bonehead/Bozo manner is a little like closing the Barn Door after the horse escaped.

So while you can't fix stupid you can slow it down a bit.

95 to 98% of the competitors I see I would have no qualms being on a hot range with because I have experience with them and we trust each other. The other 2 to 5% are newbies I wouldn't know that they were careless until after the Bonehead/Bozo act.

Bratch
04-08-2011, 10:55 PM
This has been an interesting read for a non competitor, my class count is well into the double digits but my match count is at 4: 1 IDPA, 1 Practical Rifle, 1 3 Gun, and 1 CCW/IDPA at Rangemaster that was ran hot.

3 months after buying and shooting my first pistol and only about a week after getting my CCW I was at a 2 day Rangemaster Combative Handgun I course. Tom runs a hot range so my first exposure was to a hot range, every class I've taken since then has been on a hot range, being on a cold range is actually a strange feeling for me. Everyone that I shoot with shoots their CCW guns and rigs for everything: pistol classes, carbine classes, IDPA, bowling pins, etc so nobody is needing to get geared up or swap guns around. I assume everyone shows up wearing pistols loaded and leaves with them loaded at all firearms events, because of this no one should be messing with their guns anywhere. The worst safety I have ever seen was at the cold IDPA club match in the parking lot. I was swept with more muzzles than I could count as people pulled out their super cool match blaster to show it off to somebody because it was unloaded.

I have always wondered why more matches weren't ran hot. There is more handling in having to unload and show clear then load and make ready then just holstering the pistol hot. I've always held the belief that the more you mess with it the higher the probability of an accident. I had never thought about people wanting to fiddle with their guns between stages because it rarely happens in the environments or with the people I am used to. I clean my pistol every few thousand rounds, so oiling it between stages never crossed my mind.

I would imagine a hot match similar to a hot class, if your gun fails to go boom fix it and move on. I don't press check before every drill in a class and I didn't press check a single time during the hot match at Rangemaster. If my gear wasn't in order it was a learning experience.

My goal this year is to try to make a match a quarter but I haven't gotten there yet,

jar
04-09-2011, 05:57 AM
If the IDPA match was following the rules, everyone who handled their gun in the parking lot would be disqualified.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Bratch
04-09-2011, 08:41 AM
If the IDPA match was following the rules, everyone who handled their gun in the parking lot would be disqualified.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk




Is this only during the match or any time on location? The sweeping and gun handling occured before the match while the staff was inside registering people and taking money.

JodyH
04-09-2011, 09:20 AM
If the IDPA match was following the rules, everyone who handled their gun in the parking lot would be disqualified.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk
So, now you need a RO/SO patrolling the parking lot?
That was one of the concerns raised about a hot range, having a RO/SO available for the safety table.
Hot and cold both have their advantages and disadvantages.

My thoughts are:
If someone can't be trusted with a holstered hot gun behind the line, they can't be trusted to run around and shoot one under the stress of a match.

If you're dicking with your gun in between every stage that means you aren't helping tape and reset targets and I don't want you on my squad anyway.

People tend to meet the expectations you set for them. If you treat them like dumb children they act like dumb children. If you demand they act like responsible adults they tend to act like responsible adults.

gringop
04-09-2011, 01:40 PM
If the IDPA match was following the rules, everyone who handled their gun in the parking lot would be disqualified.
Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Can you show me that rule in the IDPA rulebook?

My range has multiple bays utilizing the same parking lot during matches. Not all of them are used for the IDPA match or under the control of the MD. Tossing out DQs for actions taken before the match or even before sign up is stretching it a bit. I typically go cold in my truck or walk over to a non-match bay to go cold.

That being said, I've shot IDPA at hot and cold ranges before and don't mind either. The key is clear and consistent communication of the rules and swift enforcement of the same. Once newbies get yelled at or DQed before the first stage for finger fucking their guns, they tend to remember not to do it. We cover DQ issues in the new shooters meeting and again in the shooters meeting before every match.

Again, clear, consistent and accurate communication of the rules and consequences are what makes for a safe match, not a slavish insistence on a cold range.

IMHO
Gringop

jetfire
04-09-2011, 02:28 PM
I think that with the established shooting sports culture that we have here in the US where many competitors do not carry to and from matches makes running a hot range more logistically difficult than it's worth. If you're running a "CCW match" where everyone has a carry permit and is shoot their carry gear, it makes things a lot easier. As long as USPSA and IDPA remain sporting events with the level of casual participation that they have, I can't see the benefits of running a hot range outweighing the risks. If the culture were different than maybe.

Bratch
04-09-2011, 03:31 PM
I think that with the established shooting sports culture that we have here in the US where many competitors do not carry to and from matches

I know this shouldn't surprise me but it does, I can't imagine why "gun guys" who could carry legally aren't doing so.

I went out in one of the safest cities in the country for lunch today (10th in the Fbi ucr for cities 75000+); I wore a M&p pro with 2 reloads. It is already 92* F so no bulky jacket for cover just a T shirt. If I can do it anyone can.

jetfire
04-09-2011, 03:39 PM
It's more about mindset than anything - there are plenty of shooters out there who view their guns as no different from a baseball mitt or bicycle. It's not a weapon, it's a sporting good. I'm guilty of it myself, there are times where I'll finish a match, take off my full-size pistol and throw a Sig P238 in a pocket holster because it's a lot less work to deal with.

ToddG
04-09-2011, 09:46 PM
People tend to meet the expectations you set for them. If you treat them like dumb children they act like dumb children. If you demand they act like responsible adults they tend to act like responsible adults.

Jody -- Not trying to pick on you here, dude, but how many major matches have you been to? There are a lot of people competing at the national level who wouldn't act like responsible adults if it meant free sex and beer.

JodyH
04-11-2011, 02:44 PM
Jody -- Not trying to pick on you here, dude, but how many major matches have you been to? There are a lot of people competing at the national level who wouldn't act like responsible adults if it meant free sex and beer.
West Texas IDPA regionals, NM state IDPA championships.
Maybe things are different in Yankee states.

rsa-otc
04-11-2011, 02:56 PM
West Texas IDPA regionals, NM state IDPA championships.
Maybe things are different in Yankee states.

We probably are more lawsuit happy up here in the north east. :mad:

ToddG
04-11-2011, 03:01 PM
West Texas IDPA regionals, NM state IDPA championships.

How many hundreds of people on how many bays?


Maybe things are different in Yankee states.

Let's assume that's true. If your game is going to be played in "Yankee states" then it needs to take that into account. Having said that, I've shot major matches all over the country and idiots are not geographically isolated.

theblacknight
10-15-2011, 10:08 PM
I'm guilty of it myself, there are times where I'll finish a match, take off my full-size pistol and throw a Sig P238 in a pocket holster because it's a lot less work to deal with.


You just described the majority of top IDPA shooters.

Wheeler
10-16-2011, 09:48 AM
I'm not sure I'd want to be on a hot range with some of the egos I've come across lately. The last thing I want to deal with as an SO or a competitor is some individual who has a monumental ego and a loaded gun.

Wendell
10-17-2011, 10:27 PM
If the IDPA match was following the rules, everyone who handled their gun in the parking lot would be disqualified.

x2

In my opinion, if IDPA intends to stay true to it's principles, it needs to have a rule like USPSA's rule 2.5 (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)


12 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

Unloading/Loading Station (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)
If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.
Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

<http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf>

jar
10-18-2011, 07:00 PM
At both IDPA clubs I shoot with regularly, at the shooters meeting, the MD asks if anyone is carrying a loaded firearm. If so, one of the SOs takes them to an empty bay to unload. There's plenty of stuff that should be in the IDPA rulebook but isn't, but we make do.

JFK
10-18-2011, 09:55 PM
Two observations about this. I run IDPA matches at the local level in Albuquerque. I am a SO and RO for the club. I don't know if I have a solid opinion about this topic but here are a few points to add to the discussion.

Observation 1: It is important to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to safety.

Real life example with first hand experience is this... The beginning of this year we had an influx of new shooters. Some were good, others were not, and some were down right scary with their safety and worse yet their ideas of what was safe. (carrying a 1911 in condition 2, etc.) Under SO direction, being around safe shooters and some experience the ones who stuck around are now safe, trusted, and able to pass their knowledge on to others. Would that have happened if they arrived as new shooters to a stressful environment that was unsafe, or if they had an experienced SO beat them with a wet noodle because no one ever showed them the "right" way to do things, who knows. But having the safety geared to the "lowest common denominator" gave them structure and an idea what to expect and an environment to learn. I think this is equally important to these games because it is not only about competition but being good second amendment ambassadors.

That being said.... Observation 2: Expect high levels and allow people to meet those levels.

Most in my IDPA club carry. They are expected to handle firearms well. In addition the host gun club runs a hot range. It turns cold during IDPA matches so at some point there needs to be a transition. We have a loading / unloading area that is unsupervised and safe to passers by. The logic is if you can load and unload the gun at your house then you can do it on the range. Besides this is much safer than cars in the case of a ND.

DocGKR
10-18-2011, 11:28 PM
I now live by a simple rule--I will not do training classes, matches, or personal practice at any range that is not run hot. Period.

Wendell
09-17-2012, 11:42 AM
John Farnam's Quips - 28Aug12.html - Training or Masturbating? (http://www.defense-training.com/quips/28Aug12.html)

Training or Masturbating? (http://www.defense-training.com/quips/28Aug12.html)

28 Aug 12

<... please see the rules on posting copyrighted material -- ToddG ...> (http://pistol-forum.com/announcement.php?f=12)




http://www.defense-training.com/ (http://www.defense-training.com/)

Alaskapopo
09-22-2012, 09:30 PM
Why is that?
If a proper holster is utilized, pocket draws are as safe as any other draw.
I've seen more fumbled draws and dropped guns from race holsters in IPSC matches than I have unsafe/fumbled draws from pocket carry in our local CCW matches in which we allow pocket carry (with MD/RO approval).

That has not been my experience. Race holsters are very easy to draw from and almost fumble proof. Drawing from a pocket holster is very slow and fumble prone from what I have seen from people practicing this skill. I would not like to allow it simple because you have to plan for the least common denominator. While you may be perfectly safe doing it some new shooter probably will not be.
Pat

Alaskapopo
09-22-2012, 09:34 PM
I now live by a simple rule--I will not do training classes, matches, or personal practice at any range that is not run hot. Period.

I also like a hot range but I also like to compete and if I followed the same rule I would not be able to shoot other than by myself and for training. While I like a hot range I understand why they run competition this way. You have all levels of shooters at matches from the God like to Tex Grubner quality. I have had guns pointed at me while ROing more than once. (DQ's were earned obviously) What I would like to do is have invitational only matches where you coud trust everyone then run it hot.
Pat

98z28
09-24-2012, 12:07 PM
I now live by a simple rule--I will not do training classes, matches, or personal practice at any range that is not run hot. Period.

Completely agree, but your experience is well beyond mine. Could you provide some specifics as to why you feel this way?