upgrading stock Remington 870 Express to duty grade spec

[shootist26]

I have a pretty much stock Remington 870 Express HD. This version has a screw on extended mag tube for 6+1 capacity and an 18.5" cylinder barrel. Currently, the only accessories on it are a Wolff mag spring, 6-rd side saddle, and a 2pt sling (mounted on a buttstock sling adapter and a BFG wire loop)

Current issues to address:

1) stock safety is tiny and hard to flick off. What aftermarket safeties are recommended?

2) extended mag tube always comes loose after shooting. It is only retained by the barrel band.:confused: NOt sure what the issue is here?

3) light - is the Surefire integrated forend worth the money or could I slap a light onto a magpul forend?

4) sights - currently running just the standard bead sight. Ideally, I would like to have aperture style irons with a tritum front. Also would like a picatinny rail to mount an Aimpoint. Any brand to recommend?

5) side saddle - stick with the screw on 6-rd side saddle or go with velcro mounted?



any other things to consider?

[Odin Bravo One]

Mesa tactical can take care of your side saddle/rail/Aimpoint issue all in one. Or you can try a Mesa side saddle with iron ghost ring sight, add a front sight over the bead, and try a Burris Speedbead for your RDS. There are lots and lots of options in the 870 world, and you kind of have to drive the bus, as it comes down to what works for you.

Light? Personal choice. I don't put one on my shotgun. SF are easy to operate, but may or may not fit your shooting method, or budget. It also may or may not suit your needs. The add on lights tend to be a little less robust, not as user friendly to operate, and can be difficult to keep on while firing. Again, what works for you .

I like Hans Vang's big button safety, and high visibility mag followers.

I have found the factory mag tubes lacking a lot. Try something from Vang, or even Mesa if they are still selling them. Generally, a +2 is plenty. However, if you don't want to drop the cash on a new tube, try a wrap of Teflon tape like you use on air or water pipes/tubes. Sometimes it can tighten up thread fit.

[SLG]

These are just my preferences. You may like them after trying them, or you may not.

1) stock safety is tiny and hard to flick off. What aftermarket safeties are recommended?

Vang comp dome safety is my favorite. Very easy to use in several different ways.

2) extended mag tube always comes loose after shooting. It is only retained by the barrel band.:confused: NOt sure what the issue is here?

I'd replace that extension with a 1 shot extension from either Tac-star, Scattergun tech/Wilson, or Vangcomp. Better balance/weight, and I've never had one come loose.

3) light - is the Surefire integrated forend worth the money or could I slap a light onto a magpul forend?

I have never liked any of the surefire forends, though other guys love them. I haven't used a magpul forend, but it looks promising. Ellzetta is a cheap option to try and see if you like it.

4) sights - currently running just the standard bead sight. Ideally, I would like to have aperture style irons with a tritum front. Also would like a picatinny rail to mount an Aimpoint. Any brand to recommend?

Vang Comp makes a good combo rail/ghost ring set up. You may find the red dot is too high on the rail, but you can always build the comb up if need be.

5) side saddle - stick with the screw on 6-rd side saddle or go with velcro mounted?

I have both, and both have held up fine, but I think I prefer the plastic screw on one. 4 rounds though, not 6. I find them easier to use.

Hogue short shot stock is pretty nice too.

Hope that helps.

[KevH]

I have a pretty much stock Remington 870 Express HD. This version has a screw on extended mag tube for 6+1 capacity and an 18.5" cylinder barrel. Currently, the only accessories on it are a Wolff mag spring, 6-rd side saddle, and a 2pt sling (mounted on a buttstock sling adapter and a BFG wire loop)

Current issues to address:

1) stock safety is tiny and hard to flick off. What aftermarket safeties are recommended?

2) extended mag tube always comes loose after shooting. It is only retained by the barrel band.:confused: NOt sure what the issue is here?

3) light - is the Surefire integrated forend worth the money or could I slap a light onto a magpul forend?

4) sights - currently running just the standard bead sight. Ideally, I would like to have aperture style irons with a tritum front. Also would like a picatinny rail to mount an Aimpoint. Any brand to recommend?

5) side saddle - stick with the screw on 6-rd side saddle or go with velcro mounted?



any other things to consider?

You're asking what bolt on gizmos can I add to an Express to make it ready for duty use. My first suggestion would to get an older 870P. They're cheap and the arguably more robust parts and fit/finish are worth the few bucks.

The primary question is how will the gun be used and with what ammo? Are you running it as a patrol gun? Are you going to shoot buck or slugs or both? If buck, are you using Federal Flite Control wads? Do you also carry an AR in your car? Do you live where there are bears and other large beasts?

The shotgun is at its best at room distance and high risk car stop distances. We're talking at 50 yards and in with 25 yards being even more ideal. Inside of those ranges the gun with 00Buck or #1Buck is absolutely devastating, especially with a Federal Flite Control wad. The Flite Control is so good in fact that it has more or less negated the need for backboring, porting and the other junk we used to do. It also allowed the shot to impact so close I think on human targets it has negated the need for slugs unless you're dealing with someone dressed head to toe in body armor or barricaded inside an older steal vehicle. I can make head shots (impact area the size of a baseball) with FliteControl 00Buck and a bead sight all day long at 15 yards and have my guys doing the same.

I think your goal with any duty long gun needs to be to keep it as lightweight and simple as possible. Spend a few hours on a perimeter and you'll want to strip all the extra crap you thought you needed off. So what do you really need?

Sights:
If we're using mainly 00Buck or we are simply staying within 50 yards a simple bead sight (bead on a pedestal or ramp mind you) is the fastest and simplest. I have MMC Ghost Rings on one of my 870's and had a Scattergun Tech gun for awhile with their version. I much prefer the simple bead. Rifle sights have their place to. You really need to play with all three to see what you like, but I'll take Remington's standard bead on pedestal over all the options.

Stock:
13" LOP is ideal if you're wearing soft body armor if you're 5'5" or over (if under buy Hogue's 12" LOP). Speedfeed's Youth stock with a Remington R3 pad works nicely. Pistol grip shotgun stocks don't allow it to point and swing the way it should to lead the target and in my opinion detract from letting you properly employ the "push/pull" method (it makes you pull the grip slightly downward). Keep the pistol grip on rifles.

Sling:
Should be a two point or single point on a pump gun. Three points get in the way of cycling the forend. I prefer the VTAC MkI on 870's. I'm sure a VCAS or a SOB would work well too. Carry strap style slings are useless.

Magtube:
I like the +1 extensions. I do not like the +2. I carry mine with "patrol ready" with only 4 in the tube. This allows me to put a slug in the magtube and rack it in should I want it rather than having to dick with pushing my thumb up into the mag tube to keep the buck in the tube. They also let the gun retain a decent balance in the hand and keep some weight off.

Light:
I run an old Surefire 618 with some grip tape on it. The newer 618FA's are huge and bulky and weigh way too much. I don't know what Surefire was thinking. We are about to start testing EOTech/Insight forend at my department. Hit me up in a few months and I'll let you know how they're working out.

SideSaddle:
Mesa Tactical 4 round or 6 round are my preference. GG&G is making one too now that looks promising. I haven't had a chance to play with one yet. I used the TacStar version for years. They work, but bend and warp after time. I have a gun that's worn one for almost fifteen years and it is slightly warped, but still functional. If you choose to run one use a little blue Loctite on the screws as they tend to work loose.

Safety:
I had a VangComp one and I also have had a Wilson Combat one. I ditched them and run a stock one. I have used and have evaluated the use of the 870 in some bad situations. No one has ever reported having a hard time disabling the standard safety under stress when they needed to. I don't think it is something you need. If you feel you really want one knock yourself out. Hans Vang makes good stuff. I prefer the factory safety.

[Cookie Monster]

I don't have the time behind the gun like the other posters but I've gone through a few shotgun classes and really enjoy my 870.

I used the Vang Comp safety button but traded out to a Wilson Combat which I like better. Softer on my delicate finger.

I really like the hi vis follower like another poster mentioned, I got a metal one and upgraded the mag tube spring.

I've got a left arm about three inches shorter than the right so the surefire foreend doesn't work for me. I mounted a rail and added a surefire x300.

It helped a lot when I worked out my length of pull, 12 1/2" so I would encourage you to play with that.

I had a custom guy add a choke and do so work so I've got a good pattern out to 35 yards with regular buck. I really like having that extra reach.

Thanks for reminding me I need to go out and run that gun. It's so much fun.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

[LHS]

I have a pretty much stock Remington 870 Express HD. This version has a screw on extended mag tube for 6+1 capacity and an 18.5" cylinder barrel. Currently, the only accessories on it are a Wolff mag spring, 6-rd side saddle, and a 2pt sling (mounted on a buttstock sling adapter and a BFG wire loop)

Current issues to address:

1) stock safety is tiny and hard to flick off. What aftermarket safeties are recommended?

2) extended mag tube always comes loose after shooting. It is only retained by the barrel band.:confused: NOt sure what the issue is here?

3) light - is the Surefire integrated forend worth the money or could I slap a light onto a magpul forend?

4) sights - currently running just the standard bead sight. Ideally, I would like to have aperture style irons with a tritum front. Also would like a picatinny rail to mount an Aimpoint. Any brand to recommend?

5) side saddle - stick with the screw on 6-rd side saddle or go with velcro mounted?



any other things to consider?

First thing's first, I'd swap out the guts for some 870P stuff. The Express guns just seem... shaky to me, especially in the last few years. See if you can find an old Police or Wingmaster in a pawn shop, and strip off whatever accessories you want to keep from the Express.

As to your specific questions:

1. I've had great luck with Wilson/Scattergun, but I am intrigued by the Vang big dome. I don't have enough time with one to give you an honest opinion, however.

2. As previous posters have mentioned, the long factory extension is pretty weak-sauce. Get a 1-round or 2-round extension from Wilson/Scattergun or Vang Comp. The 1-round will keep better balance on the gun, and I know a lot of shotgun folks who prefer them. Some will even keep that extra capacity empty to facilitate doing a select-slug drill (in effect, the extension is there purely to allow slug transitions, rather than for extra capacity). Personally, I use a 2-round extension most of the time, and load 5 rounds in the mag. That lets me do the slug transition while still giving me 20% more ammo, and the balance is still reasonable.

3. I don't like the newer Surefire fore ends. I like the older, slimmer, hard plastic ones (from the Laser Products era). I haven't tried any of the newer Magpul or rail systems, I like to keep my shotgun fairly simple and clutter-free.

4. As mentioned, a proper ramped bead will work fine for most shotgun applications. The ghost-rings are really just there to let you reach out a bit further with slugs while maintaining speed up close. The Wilson/Scattergun sights give you a cleaner sight picture, IMHO, but the Vangs have wings to protect the rear aperture. I've also seen the Wilson rear cut in half, making a very wide U-notch rear instead of a ring. I don't have enough time on that configuration to give an opinion, but at least one big-name shotgun instructor loves it.

5. I have solid Sidesaddles on both of my 870s (one has a 6-round, one has a 4-round), and I like them fine. I haven't played with the velcro ones, but given what I've seen with velcro in general, I question how long they'd last compared to a solid. Plus, I live in a very hot climate, so you have to wonder how the attachments will work. I like the idea in general, but I'm not sure velcro is the way to do it properly. For now, just keep the one you have and learn to run it.

In addition, almost all standard shotgun stocks are too long for modern techniques. I run Remington youth stocks on my 870s, as I found the Hogue to be too short, though it would be good if I were in a position to wear armor. I'd like to try out the new Magpul stock, but I can't see shelling out more than a C-note for a stock when my factory youth stocks work just fine. That's also why I haven't played with the pistol grip/AR-stock units either.

Finally, get some specialized shotgun training. There are some good scattergun instructors around, you just have to look a bit, as it's not as sexy or popular as the carbine.

[TGS]

Stock:
13" LOP is ideal if you're wearing soft body armor if you're 5'5" or over (if under buy Hogue's 12" LOP). Speedfeed's Youth stock with a Remington R3 pad works nicely. Pistol grip shotgun stocks don't allow it to point and swing the way it should to lead the target and in my opinion detract from letting you properly employ the "push/pull" method (it makes you pull the grip slightly downward). Keep the pistol grip on rifles.


I've never liked pistol grips on a shotgun either. I need to put a proper stock on an old 500 I own; I looked into the Speedfeed, but I've read a lot of reports of shells popping out the stock under recoil, so I didn't purchase one. I'm also read that the Knoxx recoil reduction stocks are a joke. Anything to comment on those two stocks?

Otherwise, what would you guys suggest I get for a fixed stock?

[GJM]

I now have the Magpul butt stock on several 870 shotguns. It gives you the benefits of a pistol grip for one hand operation, but doesn't have the darn pistol grip protruding to bang on you when slung. The Magpul stock also does an excellent job of soaking up the recoil from slugs.

[Dagga Boy]

Shotguns are really "my thing". I have done most of my high risk searches with a 870, and I always brought my shotgun when I knew I was rolling to a hot call.

Safety-Vang Big Speed Safety

Extensions-Vang,

Sights-If I am running a bead, I like it on a vent rib. I like Ghost Rings. I currently use an Aimpoint Micro on my first line shotguns (it is really cheating.....and my idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby harp seals). At some point I will build a shotgun around the X/S sights express set up, as I think this would be a really hot set up for the 12 gauge and its typical employment range.

Stocks-I can run both a pistol grip or a field stock and I am about split on them. The pluses and minuses offset themselves about evenly. For compressed and field work, I like the conventional stock, for indoor work, I like the pistol grip. I have one gun set up with a CAR style stock that I will probably ditch for to try the Magpul set up. I like them set up short.

I've always run the Surefire Forends on my 870's. There may be better options now, but the Surefire is a fairly well proven commodity.

Like many suggested, I would dump the express to find a police if you plan on really shooting the crap out of it. I think Vang Comp will do an upgrade package on the Express.

I run full Vang Comp barrels on all my 870's.

Hope this helps.

[R.M.T.]

+1 to everything these superstars have said :cool:

Now my preferances are Vang comp everything:

Barrel: Hans sometimes has police take-offs that he will sell for cheap with the work all done. (Try to get one without porting, I shot mine without earpro=not good.)

Ghostring sight (his front sight is robust and well protected, and the front takes an AR front sight)

1 shot extension (handier then 2 shot extention and more robust the 2 shot)

Forearm has to be surefire (I like the less cluttered old school laser products one)

Stock, Hogue super short ( although I will be trying a magpul stock)

As far as side saddles go I like all of the well made ones, the Mesa Tactical 6 shot is good. I haven't tried the Velcro ones nor due I intend to they appear to be weak.

Take it for what it is worth, not much.:D

[GJM]

+1 to everything these superstars have said :cool:

Now my preferances are Vang comp everything:

Barrel: Hans sometimes has police take-offs that he will sell for cheap with the work all done. (Try to get one without porting, I shot mine without earpro=not good.)

Ghostring sight (his front sight is robust and well protected, and the front takes an AR front sight)

1 shot extension (handier then 2 shot extention and more robust the 2 shot)

Forearm has to be surefire (I like the less cluttered old school laser products one)

Stock, Hogue super short ( although I will be trying a magpul stock)

As far as side saddles go I like all of the well made ones, the Mesa Tactical 6 shot is good. I haven't tried the Velcro ones nor due I intend to they appear to be weak.

As it is late I can not thing of any thing else to add I will call it done.

1) I agree on ditch the porting, especially on short barrels, as they increase the noise level to an uncomfortable amount.

2) I prefer the G,G&G fore end, with a bit of weaver base for a light, as that SF fore end is heavy!

3) I really like the Vang soft side saddle. A side saddle ruins the handling of a shotgun for me, but the only thing worse than poor handling is a shotgun without ammo. The Vang side saddle lets you quickly add or remove the side saddle. When hiking, I often remove the side saddle and put in a pocket, but put the side saddle back on when dismounting the shotgun.

[R.M.T.]

1) I agree on ditch the porting, especially on short barrels, as they increase the noise level to an uncomfortable amount.

2) I prefer the G,G&G fore end, with a bit of weaver base for a light, as that SF fore end is heavy!

3) I really like the Vang soft side saddle. A side saddle ruins the handling of a shotgun for me, but the only thing worse than poor handling is a shotgun without ammo. The Vang side saddle lets you quickly add or remove the side saddle. When hiking, I often remove the side saddle and put in a pocket, but put the side saddle back on when dismounting the shotgun.

GJM,
1) completely agree on porting. For any one who hasn't shot a shotgun with porting it feels like getting hit up side the head with large ball.

2) I haven't tried the GG&G forearm, but I will look into them.

3) I will have to try that soft side saddle. How does it hold up, in terms of the elastic?

[TheRoland]

3) I will have to try that soft side saddle. How does it hold up, interms the elastic?

The Velcro saddles will wear out eventually. With the 3GunGear version, this doesn't really matter as it costs 20$ and even less to replace the elastic or backing alone.

I'm not sure what I think of Vang's offering being 80$, but I've not used it. I find it hard to believe it's four times better.

[LHS]

The Velcro saddles will wear out eventually. With the 3GunGear version, this doesn't really matter as it costs 20$ and even less to replace the elastic or backing alone.

I'm not sure what I think of Vang's offering being 80$, but I've not used it. I find it hard to believe it's four times better.

How is the velcro backing affixed? Glue? I question the durability of any adhesive in Arizona summers, especially if the gun is left in the trunk of a car (i.e. some duty weapons)

[R.M.T.]

LHS,
It appears to be a plate that is affixed to the receiver through the two pin holes that hold the the trigger assembly in. The Velcro appears just be adhered to the plate although in the pictures it is hard to tell. All in all it looks much more stout that I was assuming.

The one thing I don't like about the Mesa tactical side saddle is, when its cold the elastic that provide the friction for the shells shrinks and allows the shells to fall free.

[Odin Bravo One]

LHS,


The one thing I don't like about the Mesa tactical side saddle is, when its cold the elastic that provide the friction for the shells shrinks and allows the shells to fall free.

Not if they are stored brass up. When I see shotgun shells in a side saddle, brass down, it reminds me of the guys who hang their field knives upside down. Then wonder where their knife is 8 clicks into a 12k hike.

Gravity.

I do my best to avoid man made devices which attempt to defy gravity wherever possible............I can't always get around it. Planes. Parachutes. Etc.

But when I have a choice, my knife, and my bullets are kept oriented in such a fashion that it takes more than simply gravity to lose them.

[SouthNarc]

I'm running the Magpul stock and forearm on my 870 and I have to say that's the best furniture I've seen in 25 years.

On the light, here's what I've been wanting to try:

Mesa makes a small right side receiver mount Picatinny rail that was designed for breachers. Stick a Surefire X300 on there and it might very well be a slick solution for keeping the light off the forearm. The part number from Mesa is 92150.

[LHS]

Not if they are stored brass up. When I see shotgun shells in a side saddle, brass down, it reminds me of the guys who hang their field knives upside down. Then wonder where their knife is 8 clicks into a 12k hike.

Gravity.

I do my best to avoid man made devices which attempt to defy gravity wherever possible............I can't always get around it. Planes. Parachutes. Etc.

But when I have a choice, my knife, and my bullets are kept oriented in such a fashion that it takes more than simply gravity to lose them.

While I fully understand the reasoning (and the truth) behind this, I've found that my Truckasaurus hands have a lot easier time accessing the ammo if it's alternated up-down-up-down in the saddle. Then again, my 870 is pretty much relegated to home defense, and won't see hours of use running around the woods or streets at a time. Given the far lower chance of having it drop shells in that time frame, and the proven (to me) benefits of having additional space for my hands to find purchase on the shells, I stick with the alternating directions.

I also tend to use the bottom-fed shells to reload the magazine, and the top-fed shells to do ejection-port reloads.

As always, YMMV.

[R.M.T.]

Not if they are stored brass up. When I see shotgun shells in a side saddle, brass down, it reminds me of the guys who hang their field knives upside down. Then wonder where their knife is 8 clicks into a 12k hike.

Gravity.

I do my best to avoid man made devices which attempt to defy gravity wherever possible............I can't always get around it. Planes. Parachutes. Etc.

But when I have a choice, my knife, and my bullets are kept oriented in such a fashion that it takes more than simply gravity to lose them.

Sean,
I completely agree its an easy fix, I have found that allowing the elastic to decompress is the best answer, every couple months, if you want to run the rim down, along with LHS my shotguns are stationary objects that don't move often other then occasional range time. The root of the complaint is based on my experiences with the Scattergun Technologies Side Saddle which held the shells very tightly and don't have a tendency to loosen up under adverse conditions. The Mesa Side Saddle was just an experiment to see if it fit my needs.

I do agree with you combat gravity is a good thing, people who run their knives upside down are missing a wire or two.

SouthNarc,
I am locking into the product right now, thanks for the tip.

[TheRoland]

How is the velcro backing affixed? Glue? I question the durability of any adhesive in Arizona summers, especially if the gun is left in the trunk of a car (i.e. some duty weapons)

The Vang Comp is pre-secured via adhesive onto a plate with bolts, I believe. The 3GunGear version is adhesive directly on the receiver. I guess that's where the $60 price difference goes.

I've had no problems with the 3GunGear adhesive on a few hot days, but don't live in AZ nor do I leave my gun in my trunk on a regular basis. Nor do I use it on a gun I'm realistically going to use for self-defense.

[GJM]

A nice feature of the Vang side saddle, is you can easily switch from brass up to down, just by flipping the shells/velcro. Since brass up is more secure, but brass down loads faster, it is nice to be able to quickly change orientation. I use vertical orientation to separate types of ammo -- typically I run my Brenneke slugs one way, and my rubber slug (for non-lethal discouragement to a bear) the other way.

For me, while I like the Magpul rear stock a lot, the jury is still out on the Magpul fore end. When shooting Brenneke slugs, the lip at the rear of the Magpul fore end can be painful.

With both the Magpul and G,G&G fore end, I have a Surefire Scout light with a pressure pad that I can attach and remove as conditions warrant.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/shot1.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/shot2.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/shot3.jpg

[Odin Bravo One]

Sean,
The root of the complaint is based on my experiences with the Scattergun Technologies Side Saddle which held the shells very tightly and don't have a tendency to loosen up under adverse conditions. The Mesa Side Saddle was just an experiment to see if it fit my needs.


Concur completely. ST's side saddle was great.

And I have had a Mesa that loosened up, but it was an early prototype more moons ago than I will admit. The current one has held up well, and I refuse to chase technology and get nickel and dimed to death on accessories for a gun that for me, has a very specific function, and gets a small percentage of limited training time. And I know for a fact I can reload faster with brass down. But with only 12 rounds, I can't afford to lose even one. Carrying more, not on the gun, while an option, is not a very good one for me.

The second biggest issue I find with shotguns these days is that their application can be much more diverse than just a handgun, or just a rifle/carbine. An easy answer isn't there a lot of the time, as the different applications vary so greatly, a great piece of gear, or TTP may not make sense, or work at all for the same make/model of gun, with a different shooter.

The biggest issue, in my mind, is lack of true understanding of what a shotgun can, and cannot do. East Coast, West Coast, and middle America all have great shotgun trainers and instructors. Getting out and shooting the gun hard, along with realistic expectations and applications really help quell a lot of the nic nacks, dohickies, and dodads. (or sometimes just makes it worse) As an aside.....I read some article not too awfully long ago about shotguns, and their effectiveness against people in one of the newstand tabloids (the exact one slips my mind), and I was embarrassed for both the author, and the magazine for publishing the article. The unfortunate reality, is that the majority of gun owners look to the internet and magazines for their info. Both, as we all know are filled with bad gouge.

[TGS]

GJM, Southnarc, ect.....

What do you guys find so appealing about the Magpul furniture?

For recoil absorption, is there something special about the stock other than it having an enormously thick recoil pad? I'm just looking at the price tag, then looking at the price of a Hogue stock, and wondering what specifically the Magpul actually does differently. Not that $100 is an exorbitant amount of money, but it's half the value of my Mossberg 500, so my mind is playing tricks on me. Kinda like buying a C&R mil-surp and putting S&B glass on it.


The biggest issue, in my mind, is lack of true understanding of what a shotgun can, and cannot do. East Coast, West Coast, and middle America all have great shotgun trainers and instructors. Getting out and shooting the gun hard, along with realistic expectations and applications really help quell a lot of the nic nacks, dohickies, and dodads. (or sometimes just makes it worse)

I'm one of those people. All of the shotgun courses I've looked at are 4 hour courses. So, when I see a shotgun course that is only 4 hours, I wonder to myself, "Wow, 4 hours, and a lot of that time is filled up with basic stuff that I probably already know, like 'this is the end the slug comes out of, don't look into it' and so on." So I wonder, is it actually worth it? Is there really that much to using a shotgun where basic skills (transition to pistol, recoil control, stance, ect) don't rollover from carbine? With a carbine or pistol course, it's pretty obvious that there is so much to learn, and from so many different instructors. I look at a shotgun course, and I'm just not seeing much in the way of actually improving myself other than finding another crumpled class certificate underneath my rear car seat 6 months down the line....

Comment?

[Odin Bravo One]

I don't know if I can comment. I have never seen a 4 hour class. Most of the guys I would recommend are a minimum of 8-10 hours (2 safety/talking, and 8 live fire), with about 500 rounds of birdshot, 50-100 slugs/00 buck consumed. For the truly "glutton for punishment", 2 day courses are available............

I don't know what the 4 hour guys teach, their background or experience, and what kind of volume or feedback/critique is being received.

[GJM]

TGS, this is what I Like about the Magpul butt stock. It has a deepish pistol grip area, allowing you to hold the shotgun with one one hand as well as you can with a full pistol grip shotgun, but without the pistol grip protruding down like an AR (which with an extended pistol grip makes manipulation of the 870 safety awkward, pokes you when slung, and makes presenting from a high ready harder). Also, most stocks, like the short Hogue and Speed Feed are made for a comb height using a bead sight. When you shoot heavy buck and slugs, with aperture sights or a T1, the conventional stock designs beat me around my lips, which does nothing for my precision. The Magpul has adjustable comb height, so you have a proper fit with aperture sights or an optic. (As an aside, the Beretta Storm shotgun has the best fitting stock for practical shotgun shooting I have ever experienced.)

Living in Alaska, where we have large bears, I suspect I have a different mission for the shotgun than Sean. The shotgun gives me the ability to stop a bear charge definitively, at close range with a Brenneke slug, the ability to use a rubber slug for shooting a bear in the backside, the ability to harvest game birds with shot, and even use buck shot for visiting the lower 48. I have taken shotgun training for years, in 3-5 day blocks. The places I remember doing shotgun training, and all recommended are Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Louie Awerbuck, Bill Jeans, Randy Cain, the Rogers Shooting School and probably other places I have forgotten. A pump shotgun has perhaps the most power available for practical defensive use, in the most PC form factor imaginable. I am not aware of anywhere a pump shotgun is illegal.

[SouthNarc]

I'll holler buack when I'm sober.

HAPPY NEWVYEAR!!!







GJM, Southnarc, ect.....

What do you guys find so appealing about the Magpul furniture?

For recoil absorption, is there something special about the stock other than it having an enormously thick recoil pad? I'm just looking at the price tag, then looking at the price of a Hogue stock, and wondering what specifically the Magpul actually does differently. Not that $100 is an exorbitant amount of money, but it's half the value of my Mossberg 500, so my mind is playing tricks on me. Kinda like buying a C&R mil-surp and putting S&B glass on it.



I'm one of those people. All of the shotgun courses I've looked at are 4 hour courses. So, when I see a shotgun course that is only 4 hours, I wonder to myself, "Wow, 4 hours, and a lot of that time is filled up with basic stuff that I probably already know, like 'this is the end the slug comes out of, don't look into it' and so on." So I wonder, is it actually worth it? Is there really that much to using a shotgun where basic skills (transition to pistol, recoil control, stance, ect) don't rollover from carbine? With a carbine or pistol course, it's pretty obvious that there is so much to learn, and from so many different instructors. I look at a shotgun course, and I'm just not seeing much in the way of actually improving myself other than finding another crumpled class certificate underneath my rear car seat 6 months down the line....

Comment?

[GJM]

I'll holler buack when I'm sober.

HAPPY NEWVYEAR!!!

Might be more interesting to hear about last night!

[Dagga Boy]

The shotgun is a specialists gun to run correctly. As I have told many before, when run by duffers they amplify mistakes. I fought for most of my career that the carbine was better for "everyone" and the shotgun was for "gun people who train". I think I am the only one who ever hit anyone with a 12ga. at my old place (also did a street light at 30 yards with a slug:cool:). Everyone thinks you just hang it out there and yank the trigger and everything dies...........pure b.s. They are a complex system in the anti personnel role with high recoil, limited capacity, they need a ton of specialized manipulations to keep them up and running, all while handling difficult to handle munitions that also need to be matched to the shot.........again, not for the novice.

I have taken a bunch of shotgun classes from lots of people including a couple of week long instructor schools. I followed one week long instructor school the next Monday with a multi day course taught by former special operations people who don't really use shotguns much. It was an education for the special operations guys from a dude who used the 870 practically daily. It is the one system that the squared away L/E shooters REALLY know. They are not carbines, they don't run like carbines, they are work to run......but indoors against limited opposing foes.......they are my number one go to choice. At indoor engagement distances they shoot big giant holes in things that let a lot of air in and fluid out. With slugs, they are my go to choice against vehicles in a CONUS application. Running a red dot really helps in the 24/7 application. It is one of my favorite systems to teach, as they are sort of a thing that most people think they can run, but really have never been "intimate" with.

For training: I got a TON out of ITTS and the LAPD Metro/SIS folks. The LAPD Metro folks have been sort of the guru's on these things for a long time and are very efficient in their manipulations on the gun. ITTS is the place to go on the "manipulations leg". I will admit that I went to Rob Haught the first time figuring I wasn't going to learn much. I was wrong. Rob was able to take my already ingrained handling and manipulations skills and maximize my shooting speed and efficiency. Rob is the guy on the "Marksmanship leg". As far as wrapping your mind around the 12 ga.-Bill Jeans is pretty special when it comes to getting your mind right on most things. For the L/E folks, Mark Fricke does a great job "teaching to teach" the shotgun. I have not taken a class from Louis Awerbuck, but have heard nothing but good things. The key is do not just go to someone who hangs a "shotgun shootin" shingle out. Find people who have actually REALLY run the thing in environments that will mirror yours.

GJM and I would be a good example of what is great with the shotgun. TOTALLY different deployment situations, but both have found that the 12 ga. shotgun is nearly ideal for a majority of what we deal with. While the rifle is the queen of the battlefield, the shotgun is the king when the distance is close and the problem needs solving RIGHT NOW. I think with the current demonization of the modern carbine, a resurgence in the modern shotgun may take hold.

[Kevin B.]

I think with the current demonization of the modern carbine, a resurgence in the modern shotgun may take hold.

I agree. In fact, I just pulled my 870 out of the back of the safe a week or so ago. I am planning on checking my zero this weekend. Does anyone have a good source for Federal Tru-ball slugs? My supply is lower than I thought.

[Dagga Boy]

I agree. In fact, I just pulled my 870 out of the back of the safe a week or so ago. I am planning on checking my zero this weekend. Does anyone have a good source for Federal Tru-ball slugs? My supply is lower than I thought.

I did the exact same thing. I also bought a 18" Remington 1100 tactical. My 870 and the 1100 both have Aimpoints and are set up for evil people hunting. I have bought a couple extra's of my favorite "limited magazine capacity" guns in the last week. I was WAY ahead on evil guns when all this crap happened, so now I am snatching up cool low capacity stuff at great deals while the market is buying the other way. I spent a majority of my adult life hunting armed bad guys at night using .45 pistols and 12 ga. shotguns, so I am actually very at home with them. I always joke around that the first two guns I owned were a Remington 870 and a Colt Govt model. I have literally gone through thousands of guns since then and if it came right down to it, I would probably be just fine with my current hard use 870 and beater 1911.

[SeriousStudent]

shootist26, I hope I am not side-tracking your thread. But I do have a question for nyeti about the Aimpoint on a shotgun that might be helpful for folks besides just me.

About mounting an Aimpoint, as it relates to the rise on the stock and cheekweld:

I currently have a 20" Police magnum with rifle sights, but am looking to build an 18" beater 870, probably using an old Wingmaster.

How do you mount the Aimpoint? I have a spare H-1 with the factory mount. I can get the receiver tapped for a Picatinny rail without a challenge. But I have also thought about using one of the Mesa Tactical Side Saddles with the rail on top like this:

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/111.jpg

Do you think a standard Remington, Hogue or Speedfeed stock will offer the proper cheekweld? Or is that why you are looking to try the new Magpul shotgun stock?

I'm really interested in what you come up with on the X/S sights on a vent rib.

And have you thought about offering a shotgun class here?

Thanks very much, and I apologize for any diversion.

[Odin Bravo One]

But I have also thought about using one of the Mesa Tactical Side Saddles with the rail on top like this:

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/111.jpg

Do you think a standard Remington, Hogue or Speedfeed stock will offer the proper cheekweld? Or is that why you are looking to try the new Magpul shotgun stock?

Thanks very much, and I apologize for any diversion.

Like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/12.jpg

I have a "Youth" model Hogue stock, and don't have any issues using the optic, or tritium bead. A MagPul stock with adjustable cheek piece would be nice, but as I mentioned before.......I am done dumping money chasing "shiny" objects for a shotgun that has a very limited application, and see's limited use.

[SeriousStudent]

Thank you very much, that is very helpful.

Can I ask a followup? Do you run a singlepoint sling on that? I see the rear sling plate, but don't spot a front mounting point.

I tried a single point sling a long time ago, and I am much too clumsy to make it work. Something about large metal objects thwacking the pelvic region with too much force and vigor.

Thanks again for everyone's time.

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, single point...........do not use my sling system as a reference for what works well. It does not work very well for most anything. But it meets my requirements, which also requires carrying more than just that.

[R.M.T.]

The shotgun is a specialists gun to run correctly. As I have told many before, when run by duffers they amplify mistakes. I fought for most of my career that the carbine was better for "everyone" and the shotgun was for "gun people who train". I think I am the only one who ever hit anyone with a 12ga. at my old place (also did a street light at 30 yards with a slug:cool:). Everyone thinks you just hang it out there and yank the trigger and everything dies...........pure b.s. They are a complex system in the anti personnel role with high recoil, limited capacity, they need a ton of specialized manipulations to keep them up and running, all while handling difficult to handle munitions that also need to be matched to the shot.........again, not for the novice.

I have taken a bunch of shotgun classes from lots of people including a couple of week long instructor schools. I followed one week long instructor school the next Monday with a multi day course taught by former special operations people who don't really use shotguns much. It was an education for the special operations guys from a dude who used the 870 practically daily. It is the one system that the squared away L/E shooters REALLY know. They are not carbines, they don't run like carbines, they are work to run......but indoors against limited opposing foes.......they are my number one go to choice. At indoor engagement distances they shoot big giant holes in things that let a lot of air in and fluid out. With slugs, they are my go to choice against vehicles in a CONUS application. Running a red dot really helps in the 24/7 application. It is one of my favorite systems to teach, as they are sort of a thing that most people think they can run, but really have never been "intimate" with.

For training: I got a TON out of ITTS and the LAPD Metro/SIS folks. The LAPD Metro folks have been sort of the guru's on these things for a long time and are very efficient in their manipulations on the gun. ITTS is the place to go on the "manipulations leg". I will admit that I went to Rob Haught the first time figuring I wasn't going to learn much. I was wrong. Rob was able to take my already ingrained handling and manipulations skills and maximize my shooting speed and efficiency. Rob is the guy on the "Marksmanship leg". As far as wrapping your mind around the 12 ga.-Bill Jeans is pretty special when it comes to getting your mind right on most things. For the L/E folks, Mark Fricke does a great job "teaching to teach" the shotgun. I have not taken a class from Louis Awerbuck, but have heard nothing but good things. The key is do not just go to someone who hangs a "shotgun shootin" shingle out. Find people who have actually REALLY run the thing in environments that will mirror yours.

GJM and I would be a good example of what is great with the shotgun. TOTALLY different deployment situations, but both have found that the 12 ga. shotgun is nearly ideal for a majority of what we deal with. While the rifle is the queen of the battlefield, the shotgun is the king when the distance is close and the problem needs solving RIGHT NOW. I think with the current demonization of the modern carbine, a resurgence in the modern shotgun may take hold.

All,

This has fast become one of my favorite threads of all time, so to the Op thanks for posing the question, Neyti thanks so much for the insight. I am fortunate that I was introduced to tactical shotgunning, if you want to call it that, at a very young age 13 or 14, Dad being a firearms instructor and Mom being a full time cop and firearms instructor, shotguns have always had a place in my heart.

Sean, how are you loading the gun with the shells that far down in the side saddle?

Neyti, the shotgun is king and agree with your statements totally. What loads are you running in your shotguns? (sorry it had all ready been answered)

There ain't nothing like a shotgun.:cool:

[TGS]

Eh.....er.....ugh.

Looks like Magpul doesn't make stocks for the Mossberg anyway. Drats. I bought this 500 on the cheap down in VA, it came with a Hogue pistol grip and a Choate pistol grip stock. I need to put something decent on it. I'm guessing the Hogue stock will be fine, unless any of you have something to add. It's on sale at Midway for $42.

[Dagga Boy]

Aimpoints: On one gun I have one of the very first rail/ghost ring combo's that Hans Vang ever did. It Co-witnesses with the irons and just flat works without any issues with cheekweld. Both my 870 and 1100 both have speedfeed youth length stocks (pistol grip on the 870, standard on the 1100). I have also run the short Hogue, some custom stuff, and the CAR style. No issues. This is what is nice about a sight you don't need to be lined up perfect on. I just like the whole both eyes open, threat, gun comes up, dot transposed over threat, press......big frigging hole:D, in all conditions. I have had to work with some of my loading and ammo mangement with the red dot and working from the bottom of the gun.

Slings, for indoor clearing stuff with the 12 ga., I like the single point. It doesn't get hung up on door knobs and stays clear of everything in front of my body. It also works well out of a vehicle. For outdoor work, a two point is a better bet.

Sean, I really love that gun everytime you post it. That is a a great clean little room clearing gun.

Loads-Federal Low recoil LE buck in the tube, 1 ounce Federal slugs on the side saddle. For the 1100 I am looking at the Hornady 12 pellet full house 00 buck. I will probably switch to the Federal #1 for the 870.

[GJM]

I suspect Sean and I are built differently, as the combination of a Hogue stock and a T1 beats my face silly. Not sure if Sean is breeching or buck-shoting, but I run with slugs and shoot a lot of groups where getting smacked in the face is not a positive. The Magpul stock allows me to tune comb height.

While I have a number of 870's, including multiple 14 inch models, the Beretta Storm shotgun has almost obsoleted the 870, along with my 11-87's, Benelli M2 and M4. It is lighter than a 14 inch 870, gas operated with absolute reliability and modest recoil, and flat out has the best stock I have tried on a practical shotgun. The T1 and aperture sights are co-witnessed as the stock comes from the factory.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/storm1.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/storm2.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

I liked the Hogue when I was shooting in armor. I also tend to run the gauge off my pecs and not in a shoulder (couldn't find the "pocket" wearing armor). Now that I avoid putting on armor and helmets like the plague, I have gone to longer stocks.

That Beretta is nice, and this is the first I have seen of anyone running one configured like that. I was going to invest in a Benelli M4 as I have always had good luck running the Benelli's in the past, but went with the 1100 for a third of the money. When I do a shorty here in Texas (could only carry them at work in California), I will probably go with the 14.5 Benelli M4, or configure a M2 as a shorty.

[GJM]

Nyeti, I thought I would do the same with the M2 and/or M4. I believe the M2, when shot with heavy loads, does not use Benelli's inertia system, but rather runs on pain! Even with the Comfortech Benelli stock with the shorter pad and higher comb, the iron sights and T1 are at different heights on the M2. My M4 is not reliable, and so I shelved the plan to form 1 a short barrel on it. It is about 2 pounds heavier than the Beretta.

Despite my love for a 14 inch 870, the Beretta handles like a smaller package, despite its 18 inch barrel.

[Odin Bravo One]

Mine is a dual use gun.

It resides on my back most of the time, in a specially designed and manufactured scabbard, which allows it to be drawn easily and put away "reasonably" easy. (And took about 2 years and all of the patience I could muster to sew and build) It is primarily a breaching gun, but I don't believe in disarming myself simply to open a door, so if it comes to that, and the carbine is secured, the shotgun comes out and stays out until there is time/opportunity to put it away and return to a carbine. I use 00 Buck for breaching vs birdshot or Hatton type rounds to give me something relatively effective at building clearing distances. I can shoot slugs through it, and get good hits out to 100, but I don't generally carry them.

My reload initates from 2 "ready" rounds on my belt. I also top it off before moving from purchased real estate. But I am also stuck with only 12 rounds total. 4 in the gun, 2 in the "ready", and 6 on the Side Saddle. As I mentioned before, hauling more rounds somewhere else is not a good option, so ensuring all 12 stay where I want them until they are needed is more important to me than a super fast 3gun reload. I can draw my pistol and fire faster then I can reload when the shells are upside down, so having them brass up is irrelevant to me, except for security. I also don't find myself in a "lone gunman/last stand" situation with my shotgun. My set up is pretty specific, and not likely all that useful for most shotguns/shotgunners.

This gun is the result of swinging and missing multiple times on shotgun development by my employer, as well as a few custom shotguns I have had built over the years. I am happy with it, finally, and it does everything I need it to do. I do have an 1187, Benelli M2, and Win Super X2 & X3 for my other shotgun needs. Meaning.........I have 4 shotguns to kill orange clay discs flying through the air.

[GJM]

While I practice speed reloading the shotgun, outside of a course setting I view extra shot shells as mostly administrative. I decided a long time ago that, barring unusual circumstances (cover, distance or being in Canada), my shotgun reload technique is most likely dropping it and transitioning to the handgun.

[Dagga Boy]

Keeping the shotgun fed and running off the gun was a critical skillset for me. For most of my L/E career, the shotgun was my go to primary during high risk situations with no carbines available. Eventually, we sort of figured things out, but it was a hard road and I am permanently scarred from banging my head against the wall with "executive staff" on weapons selection. We learned early on with side saddles to run hulls up. It keeps the rounds on the gun. LAPD Metro found out the hard way during the LA riots about hull down carry as they were losing rounds during protracted gunfights in the projects. They developed an excellent means of loading and managing rounds from hull up that is seamless for me, fast, and smooth.

Back in the dark ages I had Robar build two 870's that are nearly identical to Sean's modern version in size and configuration. They were used by our gas and breaching specialists to deliver everything from lethal rounds backing up their 40's and 37's, to breaching rounds supporting entries and bean bags and other non-lethal for crowd work. The shortened full stocks and 12.5" barrels was a much better configuration than their previous "pistol gripped" guns.

GJM, I didn't realize the Beretta was an 18" gun. Looks great. 4 or 5 round magazine?

[R.M.T.]

While I practice speed reloading the shotgun, outside of a course setting I view extra shot shells as mostly administrative. I decided a long time ago that, barring unusual circumstances (cover, distance or being in Canada), my shotgun reload technique is most likely dropping it and transitioning to the handgun.


Mine is a dual use gun.


My reload initates from 2 "ready" rounds on my belt. I also top it off before moving from purchased real estate. But I am also stuck with only 12 rounds total. 4 in the gun, 2 in the "ready", and 6 on the Side Saddle. As I mentioned before, hauling more rounds somewhere else is not a good option, so ensuring all 12 stay where I want them until they are needed is more important to me than a super fast 3gun reload. I can draw my pistol and fire faster then I can reload when the shells are upside down, so having them brass up is irrelevant to me, except for security. I also don't find myself in a "lone gunman/last stand" situation with my shotgun. My set up is pretty specific, and not likely all that useful for most shotguns/shotgunners.



GJM and Sean,

I agree that load is administrative in nature, I also agree that in terms of have a sidearm is a much better choice then trying to reload under time/situation constraints.

Nyeti,
Agree with the sling set up, single point are good for shotguns unless you are outside and then they just suck.

Thanks for the insight and tips guys.

[GJM]

Nyeti, as long as you remove the little plastic cap that retains the magazine spring, the Beretta holds five with room to spare.

In the field, I most often have the shotgun in my hands, but use a simple AR style carry strap in case I have to temporarily park it.

Nyeti may have cruiser ready, but this is Alaskan bear ready -- from a hike last summer in a very bear frequented area:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/storm3.jpg

Glock 29 in a Shaggy, as my primary reload, with the side saddle as my secondary reload.

[Odin Bravo One]

We learned early on with side saddles to run hulls up. It keeps the rounds on the gun. LAPD Metro found out the hard way during the LA riots about hull down carry as they were losing rounds during protracted gunfights in the projects. They developed an excellent means of loading and managing rounds from hull up that is seamless for me, fast, and smooth.


I was killing braincells trying to remember where I first saw that, and when exactly I started doing it. Thanks for jogging my memory. ITTS, somewhere around the turn of the century when I was on the right side of the country. Or left. Depending on how you look at it. Some of the best training period, but if you have an 870, and ITTS is within driving distance, it is well worth the trip for a day on the range with the Uncle Scotty. Don't go expecting some sort of biblical proportion revelation, but you will learn to run the gun hard and heavy. And if you can walk + chew gum at the same time, you will not be outpaced by the guys with the auto's. They have their own quirks. Which, you will learn if you have one of them........

[Dagga Boy]

Really nice set up GJM, and it looks light.

Sean, I remember the first time Scotty hit me up with the "show me your reload" on my 870 with the hulls up on the side-saddle. Feeling my awesomeness I did the reload and Scotty hits deflate with "wrong-princess!". He showed me the "Metro" load, and I was a instant convert. Later on with Rob Haught, Rob hit me with the "hey, do that again". It's so weird, as it doesn't seem like a real natural manipulation, but it comes so easy and is so fluid on working off the side saddle.

This is a good thread. It really highlights how versatile the shotgun really is when you look at how many of us are using them in very different ways. It also reinforces the idea that you need to put some real time into running them in whatever capacity you are using them.

[Odin Bravo One]

Glad to know I wasn't the only one with a pet name.......mine was "Cupcake".

[tanner]

All,

Neyti, the shotgun is king and agree with your statements totally.



The Rifle is the Queen of the battlefield and the Shotgun is the King of the castle... Kind of has a ring to it.

Awesome thread guys.

[Dagga Boy]

The Rifle is the Queen of the battlefield and the Shotgun is the King of the castle... Kind of has a ring to it.

I'll be repeating that just the way you wrote it. Shorter and cleaner than my version with a much better ring. Good job.

[LOKNLOD]

This has been a very informative thread. Thank you all.
I've got an older 870 Express that needs a tune up (has some feeding issues) and this would be a good a time as any to get it running again. Shotshells were about the only thing in stock when I tried to use my Christmas giftcard at Academy the other day...

[Shokr21]

I'm on the hunt for a 24" Nova/Supernova for 3 gun and general hunting use.

What are the preferred loads for general plinking to upland bird hunting (pheasant/dove) to waterfowl to home defense?

I have an AR, 1911's and glocks. The Shotgun is the last gun purchase for me until prices come down out of the atmosphere.

[peterb]

For general plinking/practice/casual clay sports, any inexpensive target loads should work. Most clay sport ranges specify a maximum shot size(often 7 1/2).
I usually buy 1-oz #8s.

The inexpensive steel-head shells can cause extraction problems in some guns. The bulk-pack Winchester Universals generally seem to be the worst, the Remington Gun Clubs the best, with the Federals somewhere in between. FWIW, I've had no problems with the Federal Top Guns, which are the best deal at my local store.

For self-defense, the Federal Flitecontrol low-recoil #1 buck is probably the best choice, but the #00 is much easier to find. It gives very tight patterns from most guns.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99583
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45.htm

I'll defer to wiser folks on hunting loads, but federal regulations require non-toxic(non-lead) shot for migratory gamebirds, which covers most waterfowl. You should also check your state regulations.

[Up1911Fan]

I just ordered one of the Hogue 12" LOP's for my 870.

Is anyone using an XS front sight? The model that attaches to the bead?

[nalesq]

Is anyone using an XS front sight? The model that attaches to the bead?

Yes, I have the XS Big Dot Tritium (which is epoxied over the existing bead) on one of my Remington 870s. I used JB Weld and made sure I did adequate surface preparation. About 5 years and close to 1000 rounds later (birdshot, buck, and slugs), it is still there. It is a definite improvement over the plain bead, especially in low-level light.

[LHS]

Yes, I have the XS Big Dot Tritium (which is epoxied over the existing bead) on one of my Remington 870s. I used JB Weld and made sure I did adequate surface preparation. About 5 years and close to 1000 rounds later (birdshot, buck, and slugs), it is still there. It is a definite improvement over the plain bead, especially in low-level light.

Does it raise the level of the bead any? I've been looking for a way to use a skeet barrel with my ghost-ring rear sight for hunting and clays.

[peterb]

XS Big Dot (lower right) http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nID=sights&cID=Sights&pID=sights&sID=shotgun

[nalesq]

Does it raise the level of the bead any? I've been looking for a way to use a skeet barrel with my ghost-ring rear sight for hunting and clays.

Yes, it does. By how much, I'm not sure, but not enough for me to detect significant POA/POI deviation issues caused by the slightly higher XS Big Dot out to 25 yards with slugs. Using different brands of slugs seems to matter more.

Now that I think of it, even though the top of the XS Big Dot is a tad higher than the top of the factory bead, I'm actually centering the tritium center of the Big Dot, instead of the top of the Big Dot, on the center of whatever it is I'm shooting at. So even though it's higher, I'm not really using the highest part of the XS Big Dot to aim anyway.

I've never tried shooting birds or clays with this set-up.

[shootist26]

UPDATE:

my shotgun is slowly coming together. Vang big dome safety and machined extractor installed. Vang extension, 13" LOP stock, and Surefire forend on order. I have a 2-day shotgun class scheduled in a few months. Should be an interesting learning experience.

I don't want to make a whole new thread about this, but what kind of shotshell carriers do you guys like? I will probably be running most of my shells out of my pockets for this class, but I would like to have at least a few on the belt. The 4-shell caddies are popular at the USPSA shotgun matches I have been to. Also looking for some info on 2-shell holders.

[GJM]

Two comments:

1) I don't like the Vang large safety and removed them from all my 870 shotguns. The reason is that I rely on feeling the safety button is flush with the frame with my trigger finger, and thereby know the safety is in the fire position. With the large Vang, it protrudes from the frame, even in the fire position, preventing me from knowing what position the safety is in.

2) For carry of a number of extra shells, I really like the SOE mini-rig, or component shot shell holder.

[Ed L]

Two comments:

1) I don't like the Vang large safety and removed them from all my 870 shotguns. The reason is that I rely on feeling the safety button is flush with the frame with my trigger finger, and thereby know the safety is in the fire position. With the large Vang, it protrudes from the frame, even in the fire position, preventing me from knowing what position the safety is in.

I is exactly what I found when I tried the Vang large safety! I couldn't get rid of it fast enough.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'll play Devil's advocate........

First thing I replace on an 870 is the safety. I have no use whatsoever for the factory version.

[Cookie Monster]

I used a bunch of stuff for holding shells. I go between these:

http://www.cpwsa.com/ap_customs.htm and a rock climbing chalk bag.

My hands are small so I use a 3x3 for the fastest loads, I can grab 3 at a time but got some 4x4's for volume. A 4x4 sits next to the ready to go gun, with tec loc it is quick add to the belt.

I've run a bunch of classes out of a vest pockets and the chalk bag as well as the AP Customs. The AP Customs allows me to get a good index immediately. A little more fishing for the index with the others.

I've looked a bunch at the SOE rigs (I've got a few other SOE products and they are bomber) but as with being just a guy, chest rigs are just not something I anticipate using if the fight comes to me. If I get a chance to grab a long gun, it would be long gun plus the chalk bag which is the same set-up I got for my lever actions.

Cheers,
Cookie Monster

P.S. Love the shotgun threads, might be picking up a 20 gauge soon.

[Cookie Monster]

I'll play Devil's advocate........

First thing I replace on an 870 is the safety. I have no use whatsoever for the factory version.


+1

Cookie Monster

[joshs]

For belt mounted carriers, I prefer caddies to the various load-two systems. If I were only focused on shooting 3 gun, I might use load-two because it is slightly faster, but I think the weak hand load from caddies is the most practical (if anything other than a side saddle reload can be practical) way to load a shotgun.

[LHS]

I've tried running a dump pouch to hold spare ammo, but I find it a lot faster and easier to have some method of keeping the shells indexed. I generally run the sidesaddle and some belt loops (I've used the plastic Safariland types for years, but the fabric Wilderness 'twin loader' is also pretty nice, albeit expensive), and refresh those out of a dump pouch when I can. I've been wanting to try one of the Eagle patrol bandoliers but they're virtually unobtanium these days.

[JAD]

I'm conscious of two serviceable two-round belt holders, the blade-tech and the safari land. The bt has a ludicrously huge tek lock belt attachment subdivision, and the safari land is sized for a duty rig belt. I have found neither to be particularly suitable for all day carry. This may be a good thing to commission from some of the leather workers we know -- if circumstances force me to start running my shotgun in my trunk rather than the current AR, it might be possible to persuade me to wear a couple of extra rounds all day.


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[GJM]

http://www.thewilderness.com/index.php?p=product&id=2730&parent=174

[JAD]

http://www.thewilderness.com/index.php?p=product&id=2730&parent=174

Cool, ordered. If it works well I will get a leather one made -- for style points, of course, but also because the belt attachment on my 16 year old wilderness ar mag pouch never was very secure.

[shootist26]

I'm conscious of two serviceable two-round belt holders, the blade-tech and the safari land. The bt has a ludicrously huge tek lock belt attachment subdivision, and the safari land is sized for a duty rig belt. I have found neither to be particularly suitable for all day carry. This may be a good thing to commission from some of the leather workers we know -- if circumstances force me to start running my shotgun in my trunk rather than the current AR, it might be possible to persuade me to wear a couple of extra rounds all day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

the blade-tech is also $35 for a single 2-round pouch...wtf. Does the safariland one have an adjustable clip?

[LHS]

http://www.thewilderness.com/index.php?p=product&id=2730&parent=174

Yep, that's the one. They also make a six-shell holder, but that takes up quite a bit of belt space.

[JAD]

the blade-tech is also $35 for a single 2-round pouch...wtf. Does the safariland one have an adjustable clip?

No, and it slides around. A lot, too much for EDC. I hope and think the wilderness rig will be better, but based on my AR pouch I don't expect it to be perfect. My plan is, if I wear the wilderness one a lot, I'll ask a holster maker to make one sized for my belt out of leather.

[GJM]

Long term, I view pouches like these, whether made of leather or nylon, to be a consumable, as over time both leather and nylon stretch to the point retention is impaired. For example, my Milt Sparks six round revolver cartridge holders no longer reliably retain the cartridges after some years of hard use. An advantage of the Wilderness nylon holder, is it is lighter than leather, and can be put on your belt without threading the belt thru the loops like leather. Wearing the Wilderness two shell holder in Alaska field use, I have had no problems with it coming off my belt.

[JAD]

I'm right with you. The issue with my wilderness AR pouch is not coming off of my belt but rather sliding around. It permits a wider belt than I wear. The point of getting a leather unit made, if I have the same issue, is to get a dedicated belt slot. If, that is, I decide to EDC a couple of rounds of buck, which might be far fetched.

[shootist26]

if I get scattergun ghost ring sights installed, can I still add a rail on top of the receiver? Is an Aimpoint micro going to cowitness properly? Does it even matter?

Yes I do know that Vang has an integrated ghost ring/rail setup, but the scattergun seems to be cheaper and easier to install.

this is way more complicated than AR15s:p

[Odin Bravo One]

If you have the money, then anything is possible.

If you are serious about upgrading the shotgun into an effective fighting tool, then the words "Cheap" and "Easy" need to be replaced with "Reliable" and "Robust". Cheap and easy is a fast and easy way to spend money on shit you don't need, won't use, don't actually understand, etc.

So my question becomes why would you install Ghost Ring sights.......THEN........add a rail after? Do it right the first time. Figure out what you need, and get it, and have it installed properly. (Generally that also means professionally).

If you can't afford it this second, then save until you can. Nickel and diming stuff like this is a good way to cry not only twice, but multiple times.

[GJM]

Brockman Custom makes an excellent combination rail and rear aperture sight that I have on several 870 shotguns.

[GJM]

Just saw the 2013 Surefire new product video, and it looks like they have a new lightweight 870 fore end light.

[shootist26]

So my question becomes why would you install Ghost Ring sights.......THEN........add a rail after?

what if I don't like the ghost ring sights and decide I want to go with an aimpoint micro instead? Unfortunately, I can't just try stuff out since its not exactly modular like an AR15.

I can't find any other ghost ring sight with an integated rail except Vang's offering

[GJM]

what if I don't like the ghost ring sights and decide I want to go with an aimpoint micro instead? Unfortunately, I can't just try stuff out since its not exactly modular like an AR15.

I can't find any other ghost ring sight with an integated rail except Vang's offering

Brockman Custom!

[Odin Bravo One]

what if I don't like the ghost ring sights and decide I want to go with an aimpoint micro instead? Unfortunately, I can't just try stuff out since its not exactly modular like an AR15.

I can't find any other ghost ring sight with an integated rail except Vang's offering

Brockman is another option for the sights + rail.

If it isn't, or you don't think it will work for you..........


If you have the money, then anything is possible.

Not to come off as a dick, but the reality is that for what you are talking about......."Cheap and Easy" isn't going to be part of the equation if you don't like the set up you decided on. Changing it will be expensive and time consuming. As you said, it isn't modular like an AR.

[GJM]

Brockman rail:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Brockrail.jpg

[shootist26]

Brockman rail:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Brockrail.jpg


I can't find that on their website.

But in any case, I just said screw it with the ghost rings. I ordered a mesa tactical rail and am just going to slap an Aimpoint micro on it and call it a day. I also ordered the XS tritium front sight to put over my bead.

[Drang]

Eh.....er.....ugh.

Looks like Magpul doesn't make stocks for the Mossberg anyway.

Magpul's website says their shotgun stock for Mossbergs is due out this year. I want one for my 500.

(Kinda regretting going for the 500 and not a 590. Pondering getting a 590 and either relegating the 500 to reserve service or trading/selling it. Or trying to upgrade it, the only thing you can't get aftermarket is a bayonet stud -- so far as I know...)

You do need to use caution when upgrading a 500, some versions need adapters for butt stocks, and do not have removable foreends.

[LOKNLOD]

Sling setups for the 870 -- what do you all prefer? On an AR I like a Vickers sling mounted on the outboard rear of the buttstock and at the rear of the handguard/front of receiver. I can't mimic that exactly on the shotgun, and I'm not sure if it would be best even if I could. The front sling mount seems to be more problematic.

[shootist26]

Sling setups for the 870 -- what do you all prefer? On an AR I like a Vickers sling mounted on the outboard rear of the buttstock and at the rear of the handguard/front of receiver. I can't mimic that exactly on the shotgun, and I'm not sure if it would be best even if I could. The front sling mount seems to be more problematic.

The way I have it right now is with a sling adapter (like the ones you see on M16A2s) on the rear of the stock. The front of the sling goes through the loop that comes attached to the mag extension. It's just forward of the forend. I too have a Vickers sling.

[justintime]

Like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/12.jpg

I have a "Youth" model Hogue stock, and don't have any issues using the optic, or tritium bead. A MagPul stock with adjustable cheek piece would be nice, but as I mentioned before.......I am done dumping money chasing "shiny" objects for a shotgun that has a very limited application, and see's limited use.

will this sidesaddle work with the express forend? the last side saddle I bought did not allow me to fully rack the gun.

[jrm]

If someone were going to have an 870 refinished what would be recommended? Looking for something durable, blackish, and that wouldn't mess with the thread tolerances on the rem choke.

[GJM]

Isn't dark and isn't cheap, but my "beat the crap out of," in and out of the float plane and boat, 14 inch 870 has NP3. Looks brand new after years of abuse, and can't remember the last time I even wiped it down.

[Up1911Fan]

I've been thinking about either parkerizing mine or having CCR Cerahide it.

[jrm]

Cerahide looks promising thanks for the tip on that. NP3 looks a bit rich for my blood.

[shootist26]

any experience with upgraded followers (scattergun tech, Vang, etc)?

Also, what spare parts are you guys stocking for your 870s?

[R.M.T.]

I like the upgrade followers, I am not sure if they are needed. They do give me a warm fuzzy feeling, I like the Vang. As to parts I will get back to you on that.

[SeriousStudent]

I will also second the Vang. Personally, I like a tactile check on the ammo status. I can feel the circular opening in the follower, and know that the mag tube is empty in low light/no light. My gun safe in not brightly lit, and that is helpful in several other environments.

[Drang]

McCann Industries has an aftermarket rail w/integral fiber optic sights: McCann Industries - Shotgun Sight Fiber Optic (http://mccannindustries.com/fors.htm)
http://mccannindustries.com/home_htm_files/1090.jpg
I may have to drive down to Spanaway to pay them a visit...

[Jay Cunningham]

Vang is nice for standard buckshot, but Flite Control evens that score. However ammo availability right now being what it is, the Vang would make more sense. With normal ammo availability I would skip any barrel modifications and go with the ammo technology.

[shootist26]

UPDATE:

Here is my new upgraded 870. I have really been shooting the piss out of this the past few months. I completed a 1-day training course and hoping to go to a 2-day course before the year is out.

http://i42.tinypic.com/5lynat.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/nppe74.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2pourtv.jpg

Specs:
-Police extractor , carrier dog spring
-Police 18.5" rifle sighted barrel - imp cylinder
-Ameriglo tritium rifle sights
-Wilson +1 magazine extension
-Vang big dome safety
-Surefire forend
-BFG VCAS
-Aimpoint T1 on a Larue QD low mount
-Speedfeed Youth Stock

Tube is loaded with Flight control buck, extra buck and Fed Truball slugs on the side saddle. The Ameriglo rifle sights are basically like pistol sights and are very easy to use (way better than the Remington factory ones) and clear the Pic rail no problem. Aimpoint T1 makes it too easy and the Larue QD mount makes it easy to take off if need be. I find the entire sighting system to be very functional and effective.

[Tamara]

...and for Browning's sake, if you read this thread and put an 870P extractor in your Express, make sure it's fit right (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-have-you-been-up-to-today.html). It's not necessarily just a "drop in and go" proposition. :o

[shootist26]

...and for Browning's sake, if you read this thread and put an 870P extractor in your Express, make sure it's fit right (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-have-you-been-up-to-today.html). It's not necessarily just a "drop in and go" proposition. :o

That sucks. Was yours not extracting at all?

I dropped in my police extractor and haven't had any issues. Most of my training has been with steel rimmed Federal and Estate birdshot loads

[Tamara]

That sucks. Was yours not extracting at all?

I dropped in my police extractor and haven't had any issues. Most of my training has been with steel rimmed Federal and Estate birdshot loads

Mine had enough burrs on it that you could move it to any point of its arc of travel with your fingers, let go of the extractor, and it would stay right there. This resulted in either the extractor not turning loose of the empty or, worse, turning loose of the empty but then not pivoting back to grab the next empty out of the chamber.

I wound up fixing it with a nail file in a hotel room which was pretty McGyver and all, but could have been thoroughly avoided if I hadn't been such an idiot. :o

[Chuck Haggard]

I like the upgrade followers, I am not sure if they are needed. They do give me a warm fuzzy feeling, I like the Vang. As to parts I will get back to you on that.

I can't speak to the 870, haven't used one in awhile, but I fixed a bunch of our 500s, like 150 of them, with Wolff springs and Vang stainless followers.

The factory springs suck, crap out way too early and tend to rust, the factory followers are a bit flimsy and tend to stick in the tube with any amount of dust bunnies, or as it turns out rust specs from the springs. No abuse at work, just our humid summers here.

I can highly recommend the Wolff/Vang combo

[Tamara]

For a follower, I am currently using the one that came with my Vang mag tube extension. I am assuming these are groovy and that "upgrading" to a metal one like the GG&G would be pointless, if not actually counterproductive?

(I knew a dude who had a smokin' Scattergun Technologies Border Patrol gun with a tritium bead in the mag follower; I thought it was cool but maybe a little overkill?)

[Chuck Haggard]

I was really digging the design of the Vang part.

Stainless, grooved around the circumference like a lead bullet and had very square edges so that it actually scrubbed debris from the inside of the mag tube, doughnut hole in the middle so debris just fell clean out, stainless so it was shiny visible against the black receiver, and of course the hole allowed finger confirmation that the tube was empty if you were locked in the ninja closet and working in complete darkness.

[Tamara]

I was really digging the design of the Vang part.

Ah. The extension I got came with the snot green plastic follower. At less than $20, I will look into the metal unit.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ah. The extension I got came with the snot green plastic follower. At less than $20, I will look into the metal unit.

Cheap insurance it is.

Example; We had a run of ammo that was leaking buffer out of the crimps. That sort of thing was a jam maker with our old followers as the junk would get between the followers and the inside of the tube and stick tight, with the Vang followers it got bulldozed away or just fell out of the hole in the middle.

[HopetonBrown]

Are you sure it's a Vang and not a Wilson? The Wilson extensions come with a dayglow green delrin follower. Louis Awerbuck said he didn't like the idea of metal on metal contact of the Vang follower against the tube.

[Cybrludite]

Someone a few pages back asked about the Knoxx recoil absorbing stocks. I find they reduce the kick from a 12ga pump to feel more like that of a 12ga autoloader. The difference was noticeable to me.

[SGT_Calle]

Someone a few pages back asked about the Knoxx recoil absorbing stocks. I find they reduce the kick from a 12ga pump to feel more like that of a 12ga autoloader. The difference was noticeable to me.

My 20ga 870 came with the Knoxx stock and it is really comfortable to shoot.

[Tamara]

Are you sure it's a Vang and not a Wilson? The Wilson extensions come with a dayglow green delrin follower.

You are correct. It is a Scattergun Tech part.

[Crusader8207]

I just built this 870 Magnum Marine and used the Mesa Tactical LEO stock with hydraulic recoil stock kit. With this setup, there is almost no felt recoil. I really like the setup.
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t483/Mluikey/IMG_0048_zpsebd4eaa5.jpg (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/Mluikey/media/IMG_0048_zpsebd4eaa5.jpg.html)

[TGS]

Someone a few pages back asked about the Knoxx recoil absorbing stocks. I find they reduce the kick from a 12ga pump to feel more like that of a 12ga autoloader. The difference was noticeable to me.


My 20ga 870 came with the Knoxx stock and it is really comfortable to shoot.

I'll have to do a side-by-side. My Mossberg 500 has the Blackhawk/Knoxx stock on it, and it punches me in the cheekbone when I shoot.

I was thinking about picking up a Stoeger 12ga SxS coach gun to hunt with this year, so anything will feel like a pussycat after getting used to that. :)

[R.M.T.]

Cheap insurance it is.

Example; We had a run of ammo that was leaking buffer out of the crimps. That sort of thing was a jam maker with our old followers as the junk would get between the followers and the inside of the tube and stick tight, with the Vang followers it got bulldozed away or just fell out of the hole in the middle.

Well, I can tell you now that the Vang follower is the only way to go, we ended up breaking a plastic one, though not on my any of my guns, and it was a 20 ga. with the limiter in it and we poked and hole in it which caused it to bind. On a side note has anyone found a "no Jam" lifter for the 20 ga. 870's...I really don't like butt stroking those guns to get the bolt to come back?

RMT

[Balog]

So, not exactly the same as it's a Police Magnum not an Express, but I have a new-to-me 870 on the way and I'm curious about a few things. It's one of the (I assume) police turn ins that Summit Gun Broker is selling, with rifle sights +2 extension and synthetic stock. I want to wring it out a bit before trying most of the upgrades mentioned in terms of sights and stocks, but I was looking at the Wolff heavy duty springs and a new follower. Two questions about that.

1. How can I tell if the magazine spring currently in there has enough sproing left to be effective? Given how cheap a new Wolff extra power spring is, should I even worry about testing the old one or just grab a new one and keep the one that's in there as a spare?

2. I like the open center Vang Comp follower, but does anyone have experience with the GG&G model? It's a similar concept (doughnut shaped stainless) but has a red aluminium center thingy. I don't really see any advantage of it over the VC unit, except that Amazon sells it and I can put it on my Christmas list there and my in-laws may buy it for me. :D

[R.M.T.]

So, not exactly the same as it's a Police Magnum not an Express, but I have a new-to-me 870 on the way and I'm curious about a few things. It's one of the (I assume) police turn ins that Summit Gun Broker is selling, with rifle sights +2 extension and synthetic stock. I want to wring it out a bit before trying most of the upgrades mentioned in terms of sights and stocks, but I was looking at the Wolff heavy duty springs and a new follower. Two questions about that.

1. How can I tell if the magazine spring currently in there has enough sproing left to be effective? Given how cheap a new Wolff extra power spring is, should I even worry about testing the old one or just grab a new one and keep the one that's in there as a spare?

2. I like the open center Vang Comp follower, but does anyone have experience with the GG&G model? It's a similar concept (doughnut shaped stainless) but has a red aluminium center thingy. I don't really see any advantage of it over the VC unit, except that Amazon sells it and I can put it on my Christmas list there and my in-laws may buy it for me. :D

1. Just replace the spring its not that bad, no reason not to. My understanding of springs is that the more times it is cycled the more wear.

2. I looked at it, looks fine, for me its the connivance of getting other stuff from Vang. The only thing I would like to know is how the aluminum is secured into the stainless outside.

[shootist26]

I bought a Wilson/Scattergun Tech side saddle to replace my Tacstar one...only to realize that the Scattergun Tech one is exactly the same thing yet costs $10 more.

Good thing for Brownells return policy.

[Chuck Haggard]

For a lot of years several notable dudes have noted that the 20 gauge 870 is not as reliable as the 12 gauge, nor was it ever worked to be a heavy use shotgun like the 12s were.

If I was going 20 gauge I would go with the Mossberg just due to the reliability issue/dealing with the 20 gauge 870s shell lifter problem. I have little experience in running a 20 gauge 870 so if someone knows different then I will defer to the greater experience.


Knox stocks; I have seen a lot of issues with them, I wouldn't take one if it was free, especially for a Mossberg. Pistol grip type stocks on the Mossy are a no-go IMHO because they preclude you from being able to run the safety.

I would used a pistol grip sans stock on a dedicated breeching gun, but that is a very narrow use weapon.


If I was looking for a 20 gauge and very low recoil I'd coy a gun I see at our local USPSA side matches. Dude has a Remington 1100, long magazine (no idea who made it), a Sorbathaine recoil pad and one of those mercury tube recoil reducing thingys in the stock, recoil is about M1 carbine level even with heavy bird loads. I have seen dude lay down a 6 plate rack in under 1 1/2 seconds because the gun doesn't come off of the target line in recoil.

[JAD]

I bought a Wilson/Scattergun Tech side saddle to replace my Tacstar one...only to realize that the Scattergun Tech one is exactly the same thing yet costs $10 more.

Good thing for Brownells return policy.

Shocking. Someone expected you to find value in a brand, an industry reputation, and a service and support staff? Larceny.

[Tamara]

Shocking. Someone expected you to find value in a brand, an industry reputation, and a service and support staff? Larceny.

Wilson Wombat does put slotted-head screws on there, so that's totally gotta be worth the extra ten bucks.

As the old saying went, "Wilson only makes two things: Little blue bags and money." :p

[TGS]

Knox stocks; I have seen a lot of issues with them, I wouldn't take one if it was free, especially for a Mossberg. Pistol grip type stocks on the Mossy are a no-go IMHO because they preclude you from being able to run the safety.

FWIW, you can get a Knoxx stock with a wrist and no pistol grip.

[MD7305]

Have any of you folks used one of the Streamlight 870 WML mounts that install between your barrel band and magazine cap? I've got a spare TLR-1 laying around and I purchased one of these mounts but I just can't seem to settle on how I'm going to position it, 3:00 or 6:00? I can't place it at 9:00 because it interferes with my sling (sling mounts at 9:00 to my Scattergun Tech magazine extension). Curious if anybody has used this thing. A Surefire 618 or DFS isn't currently in my budget so I'm trying to be creative.

[sammage]

Have any of you folks used one of the Streamlight 870 WML mounts that install between your barrel band and magazine cap? I've got a spare TLR-1 laying around and I purchased one of these mounts but I just can't seem to settle on how I'm going to position it, 3:00 or 6:00? I can't place it at 9:00 because it interferes with my sling (sling mounts at 9:00 to my Scattergun Tech magazine extension). Curious if anybody has used this thing. A Surefire 618 or DFS isn't currently in my budget so I'm trying to be creative.

You might be better off attaching a small rail section to the forearm, or pick up the MOE version to mount the light too. Having tried the flashlight on mag tube route, I can say the forearm route won't end with a pinched thumb.

[MD7305]

You might be better off attaching a small rail section to the forearm, or pick up the MOE version to mount the light too. Having tried the flashlight on mag tube route, I can say the forearm route won't end with a pinched thumb.

Thanks, I hadn't even thought of the MagPul forearm. That might be a good alternative.

[Lester Polfus]

One of the things I rarely see discussed regarding combat shotguns is screw in choke tubes.

My main shotgun is a Mossberg 590 with a fixed choke. To change patterns I have to change loads.

My backup shotgun is a Mossberg 500 with a 20" vent rib barrel with interchangeable choke tubes. I can screw in a full choke tube and get Flight Control type patterns out of Remington Reduced Recoil 8 pellet buck.

I've actually considered getting my 590 cut for choke tubes.

Is there a reason why this isn't done on defensive/combat shotguns?

[WDW]

One of the things I rarely see discussed regarding combat shotguns is screw in choke tubes.

My main shotgun is a Mossberg 590 with a fixed choke. To change patterns I have to change loads.

My backup shotgun is a Mossberg 500 with a 20" vent rib barrel with interchangeable choke tubes. I can screw in a full choke tube and get Flight Control type patterns out of Remington Reduced Recoil 8 pellet buck.

I've actually considered getting my 590 cut for choke tubes.

Is there a reason why this isn't done on defensive/combat shotguns?

Yes, because it's one more thing to get lost, broken, or fall out. Slugs require an IC choke usually, most duty guns fire slugs, it make a lot of sense logistically to use fixed IC barrels. Duty guns aren't used for skeet or turkey hunting. The absolute best patterning possible just isn't necessary on them.

[Lester Polfus]

Duty guns aren't used for skeet or turkey hunting. The absolute best patterning possible just isn't necessary on them.

I hear that, but I also see guys getting all tangled up over having to have Flight Control shells, because it "patterns tighter."

I actually get better slug groups out of my 500 with the full choke tube than with any of the others, but that may be hugely shotgun/load specific.

I guess it leads me to another question, what IS an acceptable pattern for a defensive shotgun? If it's too wide, we loose effectiveness, and have pellets flying off everywhere. If it's too tight, we're giving up some of the advantages of a shotgun in the first place.

[Tamara]

Thanks, I hadn't even thought of the MagPul forearm. That might be a good alternative.

You're gonna want to choose the light carefully for that application, because some handgun-specific units are a little dangly (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/03/shots-in-dark.html) when stacked on a chunk of rail on the forearm.

[WDW]

I hear that, but I also see guys getting all tangled up over having to have Flight Control shells, because it "patterns tighter."

I actually get better slug groups out of my 500 with the full choke tube than with any of the others, but that may be hugely shotgun/load specific.

I guess it leads me to another question, what IS an acceptable pattern for a defensive shotgun? If it's too wide, we loose effectiveness, and have pellets flying off everywhere. If it's too tight, we're giving up some of the advantages of a shotgun in the first place.

That's entirely gun, ammo, user specific. It can vary gun to gun & load to load. I like to group my slugs out to 100yds & my 00 from point blank out to about 40yds max. Ideally you want to get an idea of what distance your gun/load combo starts to turn in less than acceptable patterns i.e. More pellets in non vital areas than vital.

Shotguns intrigue the hell out of me, at face they seem simple, but it takes a ton of skill & practice to run one effectively & efficiently.

[Lester Polfus]

That's entirely gun, ammo, user specific. It can vary gun to gun & load to load. I like to group my slugs out to 100yds & my 00 from point blank out to about 40yds max. Ideally you want to get an idea of what distance your gun/load combo starts to turn in less than acceptable patterns i.e. More pellets in non vital areas than vital.

Shotguns intrigue the hell out of me, at face they seem simple, but it takes a ton of skill & practice to run one effectively & efficiently.


So it sounds like you figure out the characteristics of your weapon, i.e. "it patterns this much at x yards, and this much at y yards" and build your tactics around it?

They are alot of moving parts with shotguns. I agree. It's amazing how switchign from one brand of Foster type slug can make a huge difference, for example. I don't see that variability in rifles or handguns. Sure, they may group an eensy bit tighter with one brand of ammo, but it's usually not huge.

[TR675]

Seems appropriate to post this here instead of starting a new thread.

What aftermarket 870 stocks do folks find work for them best? I do not like the OEM model.

I know that S'narc likes the Magpul stock; I've used a Speedfeed stock on a 1300 and like it ok. Any other experiences?

Finally, I'm thinking about replacing the forend. Current options I'm looking at are the Surefire and Magpul models. Input on either is appreciated.

[HCM]

Seems appropriate to post this here instead of starting a new thread.

What aftermarket 870 stocks do folks find work for them best? I do not like the OEM model.

I know that S'narc likes the Magpul stock; I've used a Speedfeed stock on a 1300 and like it ok. Any other experiences?

Finally, I'm thinking about replacing the forend. Current options I'm looking at are the Surefire and Magpul models. Input on either is appreciated.

If you want a pistol grip, we run the speed feed fixed with pistol grips and short LOP at work. The PG is handy when doing things that require a free hand (doors light switches etc.). A side benefit is the stock reduces the OAL slightly vs a standard stock. This is the only photo of the stock I had handy - Check mag extension for tightness !

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr324/hcm3156/IMGP0052.jpg

I've had good luck with the Surefire forends. I prefer the feel of the original slim style. Apparently I'm not alone as the latest SF forend has returned to a slimmer profile.

[Tamara]

I have to say that I was very pleasantly surprised by the Magpul buttstock. I feared it would feel chintzy and I still think it's as ugly as the back side of a mud fence on a rainy day, but it gives most of the upsides of a pg stock in the handling department with none of the downsides.

[SeriousStudent]

Seems appropriate to post this here instead of starting a new thread.

What aftermarket 870 stocks do folks find work for them best? I do not like the OEM model.

I know that S'narc likes the Magpul stock; I've used a Speedfeed stock on a 1300 and like it ok. Any other experiences?

Finally, I'm thinking about replacing the forend. Current options I'm looking at are the Surefire and Magpul models. Input on either is appreciated.

I have all of the above.

Forends: My current fave is the older-older model Surefire. The newest one is slimmer, but I really like the one stamped Laser Products. It's got less of a texture on it, but seems to fit my hand better. Also, if you use the push/pull method espoused by Chief Haught and others, it seems to brace a bit better in the hand.

Stocks: I really like the Magpul unit the best, when using either a bead, rifle sights, or an Aimpoint. The grip is the best part, I think. You get a grip angle very similar to a Speedfeed pistol grip, but with the ease of manipulation that comes with a factory stock. I can hit the slide release for a select slug drill a lot easier with the Magpul unit than I can with a Speedfeed pistol grip stock.

When I'm keeping a shotgun pointed at a low ready or at a target, I can still maintain solid control while reloading. I can also fire it one handed while doing so. Not an occasion for celebration when you do it, but useful.

One real plus for the Speedfeed over a factory wood stock, is you can drill the stock for a pair of Noveske QD mounts. I did that, and it makes rigging a sling very easy. Pretty handy if you are going to wear the heavy beast all day for a class. The last shotgun class I took, I was just healing up from a sprained left wrist. Without a good sling rigged up, I would have had a LOT less fun in the class. The Magpul comes all set up - just bolt in the QD mounts. So factor that into the greater cost of the Magpul.

I have three social shotguns, all set up with the various stocks/sights/lights/optics/slings/doodads you mentioned. I keep one set up as a testbed, just so I can try various things. That's rapidly become my fave, with the Aimpoint H-1, Magpul stock, old Surefire forend. You're welcome to try them, and see what you think.

[SeriousStudent]

I have to say that I was very pleasantly surprised by the Magpul buttstock. I feared it would feel chintzy and I still think it's as ugly as the back side of a mud fence on a rainy day, but it gives most of the upsides of a pg stock in the handling department with none of the downsides.

Much agree. They got that part right, and I think it's the biggest advantage to it. I may just eventually put one on all my shotguns.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I have to say that I was very pleasantly surprised by the Magpul buttstock. I feared it would feel chintzy and I still think it's as ugly as the back side of a mud fence on a rainy day, but it gives most of the upsides of a pg stock in the handling department with none of the downsides.

Although I haven't yet fired a shotgun with this stock, from handling it my impressions are similar.

Another option is the short Hogue overmolded Shortstock, which is nice if you like the conventional style:
http://www.getgrip.com/main/overview/shotgun.html

Their forend is nice, but you might have to drill and mount a rail section if you want to add a light.

If you prefer the pistol grip variety, the Mesa Tactical Urbino is essentially a shorter Benelli:
http://mesatactical.com/products/category/urbino-tactical-stocks/

Their receiver sling mounts are nice and not too expensive. You will want the riser version if you are planning to run an optic. I got these for our work 870s about 6-8 months before Magpul introduced theirs. I'm a huge believer in short LOP stocks, but then I have a 46" chest and 32" arms!

I have the Mesa Tactical on my Benelli M1S90, but the Hogue and Magpul units aren't built for it, sadly.

[TR675]

Thanks for the input everyone. If I'd bothered to read the thread from the beginning instead of relying on memory I would have found answers to most of my questions, natch.

Bill, I may take you up on that offer when the weather gets north of 40 degrees again.

[SeriousStudent]

Thanks for the input everyone. If I'd bothered to read the thread from the beginning instead of relying on memory I would have found answers to most of my questions, natch.

Bill, I may take you up on that offer when the weather gets north of 40 degrees again.

Yup, see you in June. ;)

[TR675]

So I'm well on my way to completing Project 870.

The base gun is a police trade-in 870P. I've changed or added the following:

*Magpul stock - I like it just fine. The OEM stock I did not care for one bit.

*OEM +2 magazine extension for a +1 Scattergun technologies extension, spring and follower. Bonus: it comes with a sling loop.

*Vang Comp big dome safety. Very nice addition.

*Mesa Tac sidesaddle/rail combo. Added a spare Aimpoint micro onto that.

*Spare Vickers sling.

I tested it last weekend with 25 rounds of Estate birdshot, 50 rounds of Federal Flite Control 8 pellet 00 buck, 12 rounds or so of Winchester low recoil buck and 20 rounds of Winchester "low recoil" LE slugs. Thoughts:

*I had been planning on SBS'ing this gun, but honestly with the reduction in length from the Magpul stock and amazingly different (and better) balance with the +1 extension instead of the +2...I just don't see the point.

*Estate is garbage ammo. Multiple FTE's and FTF's with this ammo, plus the action "locked up" repeatedly after firing - I guess this falls into the FTE category. This didn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about the gun. The issues were worse when attempting rapid fire.

*The Federal Flite Control 00 buck, OTOH, ran like s*** through a goose. No FTE or FTF issues; and it patterned as tightly as expected. This did make me feel warm and fuzzy about the gun. On rapid fire strings, I could work the action and fire a new round just about as fast as I could pull the trigger.

*The Mesa rail seems like a high quality addition; the Aimpoint on top makes hitting things all too easy. Getting it "zeroed" takes on new meaning though, by which I mean "good enough for Government work" is the order of the day.

*The Winchester slug groups (from an improvised bench) were about 6" at 25 yards. I have no idea what to expect from an 18.5 inch cylinder bore using rifled slugs, but this seemed a bit large to me. OTOH, I may have had a serious case of the flinches after the first couple of rounds, because...

*There is no such thing as a "low recoil" slug.

Initial conclusions: I'm not completely sold on the 870 as the be-all, end-all of pump shotguns. The controls are awkward, poor reliability with the garbage ammo concerns me, and I would like better slug groups, although I have no idea if that is the fault of the gun or not. However, I am really happy with this overall setup.

[SeriousStudent]

I'm glad you got a chance to get out and work with the shotgun, it sounds like it's coming along nicely.

Just a question, and I'm in no way attempting any kind of trollishness. You said that you were concerned about the 870's reliability with garbage ammo. Wouldn't that be a factor with most firearms? I can stick out of spec ammo into a K-frame Smith revolver, and it's probably going to have issues. And you probably saved me money on the Rio stuff - I do appreciate that.

Again, not talking any kind of smack, just wondering out loud. I'm glad you got it set up, it sounds very sweet. Are you thinking about a light for it?

Thanks, and have an enjoyable weekend.

[TR675]

All good questions.

I'm concerned about the ammo because I haven't tried it in different shotguns yet - so I'm not 100% willing to blame the issues completely on the ammo.

It is garbage ammo, but if it works in my Benelli and 1300 but not the 870, I'm not going to be happy. If it doesn't work well in anything, I can't blame the gun.

Light comes later.

[SeriousStudent]

Gotcha. It will be interesting to see how the Rio does in the two other shotguns.

[peterb]

Do try some different slugs. I've had good groups from Federal Truballs, Fiocchi low-recoil loads, and Brennke THDs, but every shotgun seems to have a different favorite.

[shootist26]

My tac-star side saddle is still going strong. Still debating whether I should switch to the velcro cards

I have alternated between the Vang +2 and the Scattergun +1 extensions. I like the Scattergun ones a bit more right now. They hold onto the barrel detent better and don't get loose. My Vang extension has much shallower grooves and therefore doesn't "click in" as solidly. I have to tighten it up a couple times every range trip.